GSXR Rear wheel on an SV? [Archive] - SV650.org

SVXR650

20-12-09, 07:46 AM

This is my set up with a 190/50ZR17... I do prefer the 180/55R17 on my race tires...

When you buy the GSXR Kit, all the work you need to do, is remove your stock SV650 rear wheel and install any 06-09 GSXR 600 or GSXR750 rear wheel on...

You do NOT need to machine the wheel, you do NOT need bearings...

You use your SV650 axle, chain adjusters, same rear brake...

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/21825355/379784825.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/21825355/379841281.jpg

Some say slower turn in... But, have they used a 180/55R17? Or is it all just theory?

There is a reason why all 600cc to 848cc super sports have a 180 on the rear... Believe me, it is not for slower turn in...

Before you do wheel upgrades make sure you work on your suspension first...

Luis

PS: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=143904

Stoneyginger

21-12-09, 03:46 PM

So it is possible :)

SVXR650

21-12-09, 06:51 PM

Yes!!! It is possible!!!

http://www.deanadamsartist.com/sv/gsxr_wheel_side.jpg

http://brown-snout.com/motorrad/mods/mod_session_11/IMG_0584.JPG

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk65/Boss_Man81/My%20Bike/CIMG1385.jpg

I have a more pictures... But I have not upload them yet...

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/22750297/378565828.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/18798375/372515801.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/20039484/359870929.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/20039484/357610088.jpg

Luis

bighammer

22-12-09, 04:43 AM

It's pretty easy to do. A few measurements and a couple parts made/modded and put it back together.

fastdruid

22-12-09, 01:53 PM

There is a reason why all 600cc to 848cc super sports have a 180 on the rear... Believe me, it is not for slower turn in...

No, it's for putting power down and style. :-) If they could use a 160 they would.

Also see http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=143761

Druid

SV650Racer

22-12-09, 01:57 PM

Cool. We offered my GSXR600K6 rear wheel upto Steve's Thunderbike SV and it looked like it needed the sprocket carrier face narrowing as the carrier stood out of alignment to the chain run. We did only do it quickly though and then plumped for a CBR600 98 rear wheel prior to his sponsor buying him some carbon dymags.

The 180 on the rear works very very well too.

hardhat_harry

22-12-09, 02:35 PM

What tyre do you recommend on a CBR600 rear wheel in an SV650 track bike. I assume that the 5" rim gives a pointy profile and I want a bit of stability down the straights

SV650Racer

22-12-09, 02:44 PM

Steve runs the 5" rim with the 180 Diablo Supercorsa SC0 or SC1 or same compounds in the Pirelli Superbike slicks dependant on which circuit. GSXR600K7 front end with 20mm ohlins kit and springs and modded Ohlins shock. Turns real sweet, sticks like s*it to a blanket and stable as stable can be. Good enough for a 1.14 round Snett and a 100mph average lap of Thruxton!!..not bad for a shopping bike LOL!!!

hardhat_harry

22-12-09, 03:01 PM

Cools thats my favourite tyre....

Currently I'm mid build but I have GSXR600 K1 front end and Im sticking the CBR wheel in the rear with new spacers.

I also have a benelli tornado rear shock which has adjustable ride height, what height do you normally run in this configuration and I'm assuming I need modified dog bones.

yorkie_chris

22-12-09, 05:26 PM

Most important advantage I see is 180 race takeoffs are cheaper and more plentiful than 160s :-P

SVXR650

22-12-09, 05:54 PM

Dymag says that 1 lbs of rotational mass equals 8 lbs of weight elsewhere on the bike... I do not know how much truth is in that statement...

The difference from the 5.00 inch CBR600 F3 rear wheel to the newer 5.50 inch GSXR 600/750 rear wheel is weigh... Those older CBR600 F3 rear wheels are as heavy as the RF900 / Bandit 1200 rear wheels...

That means if you can save 4 -5 lbs of weight on the rear wheel... You could possibly be saving 32 -40 lbs (?) :D

The 5.50 inch GSXR 600/750 rear wheel is even lighter than the 4.50 inch stock SV650 rear wheel...

Luis

yorkie_chris

22-12-09, 06:04 PM

It is not mass that matters, it is rotational inertia. You could have a heavier wheel be effectively lighter if it carried it's mass in the hub rather than the spokes.

Also if there is gearing involved then it is rotational inertia multiplied by the gear ratio squared. So losing a pound off the clutch or flywheel would be a massive loss of effective weight. Far more than same weight on other part of bike.

Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia
read here... see how much r^2 comes up in formula.
Also look up referred inertias, that is nice way to work out effect of reducing some inertia depending where it is on drivetrain.

hardhat_harry

22-12-09, 06:10 PM

Luis,

I'd love to buy your mod but at 200 quid plus shipping plus the GSXR wheel and disk its too expensive I'll stick with CBR 600 wheel which I got 2 of (one for wets) for 80 quid inc shipping

Dymag says that 1 lbs of rotational mass equals 8 lbs of weight elsewhere on the bike... I do not know how much truth is in that statement...

The difference from the 5.00 inch CBR600 F3 rear wheel to the newer 5.50 inch GSXR 600/750 rear wheel is weigh... Those older CBR600 F3 rear wheels are as heavy as the RF900 / Bandit 1200 rear wheels...

That means if you can save 4 -5 lbs of weight on the rear wheel... You could possibly be saving 32 -40 lbs (?) :D

The 5.50 inch GSXR 600/750 rear wheel is even lighter than the 4.50 inch stock SV650 rear wheel...

Luis

zadar

22-12-09, 09:48 PM

It is not mass that matters, it is rotational inertia. You could have a heavier wheel be effectively lighter if it carried it's mass in the hub rather than the spokes.

Right, and F3 wheel is not that much heavier than gsxr.

http://forum.svrider.com/showpost.php?p=1792082&postcount=981

Lozzo

22-12-09, 10:22 PM

OK, just to throw another question into the mix - would I benefit from running a 180 rear on my 1998 CBR600F3 when in trackbike mode? When I start racing it has to be on a 160 though, just wondering how much better it'll be with a 180 in the rear cos I can nick Dannys old Metzeler Racetec scrubs that come off his 675.

hardhat_harry

22-12-09, 10:27 PM

I know alot of steely racers fit 180's as they give the tyre a pointier profile which helps the bike turn into the corner the trade off is its less stable in a straight line. Obviously this is dependant on the profile of the tyre to begin with i.e. it accentuates the profile.

yorkie_chris

22-12-09, 10:28 PM

Right, and F3 wheel is not that much heavier than gsxr.

http://forum.svrider.com/showpost.php?p=1792082&postcount=981

but is .5 inch narrower too. I don't know how to find inertia as it is not constant across radius. I'll have a gander.

zadar

22-12-09, 10:28 PM

Only thing you gain with 180 is better choice of compounds with some tire brands.
Pirelli 180 works fine on F3 rim but their 160 tire is also good.
It is better to stay with 160 if you can, there is also nothing wrong with using 180. I have done same times with both tires.

zadar

22-12-09, 10:30 PM

but is .5 inch narrower too. I don't know how to find inertia as it is not constant across radius. I'll have a gander.
I would put my $$ on F3 wheel. From spokes out it is lighter and 160 tires is lighter than 180.

SVXR650

22-12-09, 10:37 PM

The difference in weigh between Honda CBR600 F3 and the 08-09 GSXR600/750 is about 4 lbs ...And the Bandit GSF1200S is almost 5 lbs...

zadar

22-12-09, 11:44 PM

We are not talking about mass weight, we have that.

yorkie_chris

22-12-09, 11:45 PM

Need to find someone who has broken wheel so can chop spokes out and weigh rim!

zadar

22-12-09, 11:52 PM

Need to find someone who has broken wheel so can chop spokes out and weigh rim!
I bet they are close. Assume they are same :)
I would be interested just to see tire weight difference on rotational assuming there is .5kg difference.

yorkie_chris

22-12-09, 11:58 PM

Lighter tyre being 3kg sound reasonable?

zadar

23-12-09, 12:05 AM

Lighter tyre being 3kg sound reasonable?
No. .5kg is resonable difference between same brand/model tires in 160 vs 180 size.

yorkie_chris

23-12-09, 12:10 AM

Assuming radius is same I will have some numbers soon.
(it is not far off if you are comparing 160/60 and 180/55, assuming numbers on sidewall are true)

zadar

23-12-09, 12:10 AM

To get idea front tires are around 4.5kg and rear around 5.5kg

zadar

23-12-09, 12:12 AM

This page may give you some idea for weight and sizes.
http://www.sportrider.com/gear/146_0904_street_track_tire_comparison_test/size_weight_construction.html

zadar

23-12-09, 12:16 AM

Assuming radius is same I will have some numbers soon.
(it is not far off if you are comparing 160/60 and 180/55, assuming numbers on sidewall are true)
I would not trust numbers on sidewall, I measured as much as 10mm difference in diameter between two tires marked with same numbers.
Same for width, I measured 180 to be 175mm and 160 to be 165mm.

yorkie_chris

23-12-09, 12:36 AM

I get it as equivalent of adding 352grams. But it is late and I could have been counting dust on screen or something :-P

Here are numbers:

160/60 height = 96mm
180/55 height = 99mm Near enough.
Assume mass of tyre is in middle of it, obviously it is not but meh. 17" wheel = 215.9mm radius. mass radius 265mm ish.
Mass moment of inertia for point mass is I = m x r^2 = 0.5 x 0.265 = 0.035kgm^2

Force to accelerate wheel at 1rad/s2 acts at outer edge so full height, r = 315mm.
T = Ia or Fr = Ia or F = 0.035 x 1 / 0.315 = 0.111N
Equiv acceleration 1rad/s^2 = 0.315m/s^2
F = ma 0.111 = m 0.315 => m=0.352

Clunky method and not so accurate, but less than I expected.

If anyone wants to check my sums it would be appreciated.

zadar

23-12-09, 01:12 AM

Can you explain that in simple words, I don't know formulas.
Adding 352g to what?

Did you use first or second example on that Wiki link? 2nd one is what we need, right?

SVXR650

23-12-09, 03:13 AM

Remember that older wheels were vaccumm casting... Newer wheels are high pressure casting...

SV650 wheels have an outer rim of 4 mm GSXR are machined down to 3 mm...

GSXR wheels are considerably stronger and heavier at the hub. The front wheel has to be strong enough to support the whole bike's weight during hard braking... The rear wheel has to handle a lot of horse power...

Street tires...

160/60R17 Pilot Power 2CT 10 lbs
180/55R17 Pilot power 2CT 11 lbs

160/60R17 Pilot Road 2CT 14 lbs
180/55R17 Pilot Road 2CT 15 lbs

zadar

23-12-09, 03:25 AM

SV650 wheels have an outer rim of 4 mm GSXR are machined down to 3 mm...

GSXR wheels are considerably stronger and heavier at the hub.

Where did you get that info from?

yorkie_chris

23-12-09, 11:36 AM

Can you explain that in simple words, I don't know formulas.
Adding 352g to what?

Did you use first or second example on that Wiki link? 2nd one is what we need, right?

Force needed to spin wheel is equivalent to adding another 352g of normal mass... so if you make tyre .5kg heavier it is like making whole bike .852kg heavier.

I used first example for simplicity, second one is same answer within 0.1%

hardhat_harry

23-12-09, 11:47 AM

Wow you guys have too much free time :)

SV650Racer

23-12-09, 11:52 AM

Wow you guys have too much free time :)

I was just thinking that LOL.

My formula to see if it works.

Fit wheel with suitable tyre, balance..fit to bike...ride.

8)

yorkie_chris

23-12-09, 12:08 PM

Lol you should see argument on SVrider about simply weighing wheels. You know if you fit bare GSXR rim it is a lot lighter than the SV rim with a tyre on it? Rofl

SV650Racer

23-12-09, 12:16 PM

Lol you should see argument on SVrider about simply weighing wheels. You know if you fit bare GSXR rim it is a lot lighter than the SV rim with a tyre on it? Rofl

LOL..grip may be an issue though:cool:..or is the GSXR rim grippier than an SV rim:D

yorkie_chris

23-12-09, 12:25 PM

What I need to build is a dyno to measure inertia. That would settle any arguement about it lol

fastdruid

23-12-09, 05:28 PM

What I need to build is a dyno to measure inertia. That would settle any arguement about it lol

Could do, or thinking about it the easiest way would be to spin it up to a set speed and then measure the force needed to turn it. Ideally with identical make/model tyres on.

Druid

zadar

23-12-09, 08:55 PM

Force needed to spin wheel is equivalent to adding another 352g of normal mass... so if you make tyre .5kg heavier it is like making whole bike .852kg heavier.

That does not sound like big deal at all. We must be missing something when everybody is claiming it to be huge. Even svxr650 post about dymag numbers look like huge difference, but again I don't believe him anything. His 4mm vs 3mm is bs, gsxr wheel is 3.8mm at machined part which is only last 40 or so mm of rim. Wheel itself is 4-4.5mm thick all the way through except for that machined part. So is sv wheel. Casting process may be different but thickness is not. Weight difference comes simply from physical dimensions, 5.5" rim ring is heavier than 4.5" rim ring. Unfortunately it is that way, I wish it was not :).

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r71/twf164/castinggsxr.jpg

SVXR650

25-12-09, 11:37 PM

Wow.... I guess there is a lot of miss information... I got the 3 mm from GIXXER.com...

Do you have a picture of ring thickness on the SV650 wheel?

Luis

zadar

26-12-09, 12:55 AM

If post above is not enough for you there is no point for me to post more pictures.
I will tell you that front sv wheel is consistently thinner than front gsxr wheel, but not much, only about .25mm.
For our purpose this small difference is negligible and not where weight difference is.
Putting heavier tire on rim is going backwards and rotational mass gain, not loss. If you gain 1kg on tire and loose 1kg at hub compared to what you had you are not gaining, you are loosing.

fastdruid

26-12-09, 10:36 PM

When you buy the GSXR Kit, all the work you need to do, is remove your stock SV650 rear wheel and install any 06-09 GSXR 600 or GSXR750 rear wheel on...

You do NOT need to machine the wheel, you do NOT need bearings...

You use your SV650 axle, chain adjusters, same rear brake...

Yes!!! It is possible!!!

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/20039484/357610088.jpg

Presumably the curvy either needs new bearings or a pointy axle and bit of work?

Druid

zadar

26-12-09, 11:48 PM

Presumably the curvy either needs new bearings or a pointy axle and bit of work?

Druid
No, spacers are made for axle you use, both bikes need same thing, carrier machined and caliper bracket machined.
Here is good thread about http://www.twfracing.com/vbforums/showthread.php?t=137

SVXR650

29-12-09, 09:08 AM

There is the possibility that USA wheels are manufactured under different specifications...

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL16/628080/21825355/380316737.jpg

0.146" inch

Powder coat is about 0.010-0.012" inch

0.011" inch * 2 = 0.022" inch

0.146" inch - 0.022 inch = 0.119" inch

0.124 * 2.54 = 3.15 mm

Now, I do not have tooling to go further into the wheel... I will try to get a few more pictures to show if the guys at GIXXER.COM have accurate information... Supposedly all machined area is 3 mm...

NOTE: Just to be clear, I do not manufacture any wheels... I am just trying to relay good information...

I think for a wider wheel set up, the late model GSXR is the best choise, if you are doing it on a budget... If you have money to spare buy DYMAG Carbon Fiber / Forged Magnesium wheels to fit your SV650

The weight difference between tires varies wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Michelin Pilot Power 2CT is a common tire here in USA. The weight difference from a 160/60R17 to a 180/55R17 is about 1 lbs or 0.453 Kg. According to Michelin.com/USA

Regards, Luis

That does not sound like big deal at all. We must be missing something when everybody is claiming it to be huge. Even svxr650 post about dymag numbers look like huge difference, but again I don't believe him anything. His 4mm vs 3mm is bs, gsxr wheel is 3.8mm at machined part which is only last 40 or so mm of rim. Wheel itself is 4-4.5mm thick all the way through except for that machined part. So is sv wheel. Casting process may be different but thickness is not. Weight difference comes simply from physical dimensions, 5.5" rim ring is heavier than 4.5" rim ring. Unfortunately it is that way, I wish it was not :).

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r71/twf164/castinggsxr.jpg

SVXR650

29-12-09, 09:21 AM

By the way, I am SV650R on the TWF Forums

Zoran and I have put out thinking caps to work and have shared specification numbers to conclude that the kit I offer for sale is within 1mm of perfect alingment.

Same findings were found by Doug Duane, owner of Maximum Performance & Handeling www.mphohio.com/megamax.htm (http://www.mphohio.com/megamax.htm) When he took measurements on a Race SV650 with my kit installed.

Luis

No, spacers are made for axle you use, both bikes need same thing, carrier machined and caliper bracket machined.
Here is good thread about http://www.twfracing.com/vbforums/showthread.php?t=137