View Full Version : Afghanistan
Can somebody please remind me why we are there? What is it supposed to achieve, and is there an end in sight?
I am getting so angry about the pointless and continuous loss of life. Yesterday a Lieutenant Colonel and an 18 year old lad. Why the hell are we sending 18 year old boys into war zones? I know how I would feel if he had been my son. All this BS from the Government - how brave the men were, and how they will never be forgotten - well I doubt that next week they will even remember their names. To me, it seems an unwinnable war, a completely futile exercise.
Like most people I am immensely proud of what our Armed Forces and they do a terrific job. They are so brave and so uncomplaining, they just get on with the job and face bombs and bullets everyday. My gripe is with the politicians who seem to be so vacuous, with no real idea apparently of why we are there in the first place, and with no idea how to get us out.
Jayneflakes
03-07-09, 10:14 AM
I wish I could answer your question Ed, but in truth I feel as negative about this situation as you do.
Have there been clear signs of civil war? I have a horrible suspicion that entering Afghanistan was done to remove an unpopular Government and replace it with one of our choosing. I seem to recall that the Russians had dealings with Afghanistan many years ago and eventually pulled out, but can't remember any more details with out doing a Google search.
At least with Iraq there were some valid reasons, even if they got lost along the way. In some ways I feel that this whole thing is somewhat Orwellian, using war to keep people afraid and in poverty so that they are easier to control.
But what do I know?
madness
03-07-09, 10:18 AM
Could be the 'war on terrorism' or the potential huge oil reserves that the country has.
Like you Ed, I'm a big supporter of our armed forces, they do a fantastic job. Ibby has been in the TA for years and has done tours in Iraq and Kosovo. A friend from her regiment who attended our wedding has just volunteered to do a tour, which undoubtedly means he will end up in Afghanistan. Luckily, Ibby has no plans to do a tour in the near future.
To be honest, it's about time our government saw sence and didn't commit our armed forces to helping the Americans achieve their 'agenda'.
yorkie_chris
03-07-09, 10:28 AM
Afghans have been killing each other in tribal scraps for years, they did this while we were there, while the red army had its guts torn out there, while we are there now and the yanks... and they will do the same when we are gone and the next bunch of "liberators" are there.
Waste of life and money for some US agenda I think.
The Russians tried using excesses of firepower, men, materiel, helicopters, armour to dominate afghanistan, for 10 years, then they left. We will do the same when our army has run out of spare parts and morale.
yorkie_chris
03-07-09, 10:29 AM
The war on terrorism thing is a poor excuse of a non-threat to keep people afraid now there is not such a risk of a big cloud of soviet nukes to worry people with!
Ex-Serviceman, and currently employed by MoD at the moment.
I personally feel that the lessons of the Russian invasion of the 80s haven't been learned. They invaded for similar reasons and failed spectacularly, with the same loss of life, our Armed Forces are making a fantastic effort at a crappy job and I'm glad they're getting the recognition they deserve - now get them home!
Biker Biggles
03-07-09, 10:43 AM
History doesnt actually repeat itself,but it comes damn close sometimes.
The British suffered some of their worst military defeats in Afganistan in the 19th century, and the Russians suffered their worst in the 1980s there too.Now its the turn of the Americans with us hanging on for our obligitory kicking when it comes.
I totolly agree about our vacuous leaders BTW.
Afghanistan one of the only countries that begins with A but does not end in a.
I thought afghanistan was A) About terrorism in general B) About funding terrorism (poppies) C) god knows what.
Ultimately an 18year old knows what they are doing when they sign up, if they signed up at 16 then the war was still ongoing so they must have known they were going out there at some point.
Waste of money.
Paul the 6th
03-07-09, 11:23 AM
Can somebody please remind me why we are there? What is it supposed to achieve, and is there an end in sight?
Well you know how they used to say that prague was a stunning up and coming destination which was untouched and very cheap to visit... then it got ruined by stag do's & lads trips to all the brothels.
The same thing is happening with other eastern european countries, so the british army has been commissioned to convert a middle eastern country into a holiday destination which should be a bit more resistant to being spoiled by stag do's... Only problem is they've not thought about the poppy fields.
....and the poppy fields' landlords ;)
Speedy Claire
03-07-09, 11:40 AM
Ed if you want a good read then I recommend "The Kite Runner" and "A thousand splendid suns" both by Khaled Hosseini. The second book in particular made me realise that our guys are out there to hopefully stop women being treated the way they are. That book made me cry when I realised that in this day and age women are treated so badly and attitudes have got to change.
ArtyLady
03-07-09, 11:44 AM
Ed if you want a good read then I recommend "The Kite Runner" and "A thousand splendid suns" both by Khaled Hosseini. The second book in particular made me realise that our guys are out there to hopefully stop women being treated the way they are. That book made me cry when I realised that in this day and age women are treated so badly and attitudes have got to change.
I get your point Claire, but then what is the difference between this (and Iraq) and the situation in Zimbabwe?
...I too deplore the way women are treated there. But, harsh as this might sound, in my opinion this does not justify the loss of a single British life.
Spiderman
03-07-09, 11:55 AM
Oil.
Nearly. We (as in the Coallition Of The Willing - remember them anyone?) are there to protect one of the biggest GAS piplines layed by US comapines anywhere in the world.
Karzai was put in place by the americans to sign this into existence and first we had to be there to secure the sites it would pass thru and its building and now to protect it as "insurgents" and "terrorists" keep destroying sections of it.
All this nonsense about Taliban this and Taliban that is simply a ruse to keep the press occupied on a positive spin story of what else we are trying and will never be able to achieve.
Paul the 6th
03-07-09, 02:48 PM
hehe, we're all gonna be mega screwed when oil runs out :) the worlds gonna get alot bigger again. No cheap banans flown from the carribean to poland to be picked & packed then flown to the uk for us to buy 48 hours later... Think I'd better crack on with my alotment
yorkie_chris
03-07-09, 05:32 PM
I get your point Claire, but then what is the difference between this (and Iraq) and the situation in Zimbabwe?
Economics.
Rhodesia doesn't have much in the way of resources or strategic advantage, in colonial days with a near guaranteed buyer of farmed goods it wasn't a problem and a small profit. There are platinum reserves, but these can be mined (and are) without invading the place.
It doesn't have sayyyy a big f***off natural gas pipeline...
Anne and I watched the repatriation of the eight soldiers yesterday. It was very moving. We watched in silence, both so moved.
It was nice that Prince Edward attended at RAF Lyneham. I would have expected Her Majesty, but perhaps she had more important things to do.
And where was Gordon Brown? And where was the Defence Secretary, whose name I can never remember? In fact, where were any of the cabinet? Or anyone from the Government? They all had more important things to do, too.
If the people who have sent our soldiers there can't be bothered to greet them home... what a disgrace.
Hypocrites, the lot of them.
Nobody forced them to join up, did they? Or am I missing something and the King's Shilling has been brought back?
The Russians tried using excesses of firepower, men, materiel, helicopters, armour to dominate afghanistan, for 10 years, then they left. We will do the same when our army has run out of spare parts and morale.
The russians were fighting against a Mujihadin army backed by CIA money.
The coalition forces are fighting against a Mujihadin army backed by three sheikhs and a bloke with a camel farm.
No comparison.
tigersaw
15-07-09, 09:17 AM
I thought our army existed so I can sleep soundly in my bed at night, not as pawns in someone elses agenda
startrek.steve
15-07-09, 09:19 AM
Hey Paul,
dont you reply to your pm's?
Steve
I thought our army existed so I can sleep soundly in my bed at night, not as pawns in someone elses agenda
Nytol exists so you can sleep soundly in your bed at night.
Armies have always been pawns in a political game. Anybody signing up at any point since the Korean war - possibly even since the Great War of 1914-18 - should have thought that through beforehand.
lukemillar
15-07-09, 09:22 AM
Ed if you want a good read then I recommend "The Kite Runner" and "A thousand splendid suns" both by Khaled Hosseini. The second book in particular made me realise that our guys are out there to hopefully stop women being treated the way they are. That book made me cry when I realised that in this day and age women are treated so badly and attitudes have got to change.
I was going to say the same thing! Not that one book can make you completely understand the situation, but it inspired me to seek out further reading on the country.
Nytol exists so you can sleep soundly in your bed at night.
Nytol is rubbish, almost as rubbish as this "war"
No they're not conscripts, but that doesn't mean we and they cannot disagree with the way they are being used.
The biggest problem is that with each loss of life, each billion spent and each month that passes, our arrogant "leaders" are even less willing to deal with the criticism that would inevitably come with a full scale withdrawal with no clear victory.
I feel that until we get a change of leadership Brown and co. would keep them out there indefinitely.
ThEGr33k
15-07-09, 09:42 AM
I thought our army existed so I can sleep soundly in my bed at night, not as pawns in someone elses agenda
That is one of the reasons im leaving tbh. I joined to protect the UK not to go to some other country and mess about for politicans to get brownie points with the Yanks.
Typical Government response came out... Its to protect our selves from the terrorists. Its a sort of excuse that you cant really argue against and they know it. Free excuse to do what they want, especially when it comes to restricting freedom.
If we'd have not gone into the middle east throwing our weight about I would bet anything that we wouldn't be in the sights of these so called "terrorist".
One big joke at the expense of Britain and mostly of the Forces.
Oh and as to youngsters knowing what they are signing up to... Sorry I have to disagree. They are young, they dont know they are Mortal and that "it wont happen to me" and that it will be fun and exciting. They are YOUNG!
One other thing my corporal has mentioned. Do Nurses sign up to be abused on a Friday and Saturday night? Do you become a teacher to be abused by children, join the fire service to burn to death!? Not likely, you do it to do a service that is needed, not to be abused and used. This also applies to us forces, we dont join to die. :rolleyes:
SoulKiss
15-07-09, 09:42 AM
...I too deplore the way women are treated there. But, harsh as this might sound, in my opinion this does not justify the loss of a single British life.
Its not that long ago that women were treated pretty poorly in this country.
How recent is it that the law stating that a woman cannot be raped by her husband was repealed?
It was 1918 before women were allowed to vote, but they had to be over 30 and
"occupied premises of a yearly value of not less than £5".
It was a further 10 years before parity/equality was established.
People are so unaware of the history, that when someone recently did a street petition in London "To End Womans Sufferage", they got hundreds of signatures, many from women...
No-one invaded us and told us how we had to live - in fact when someone tried we pushed back and defended ourselves against them, ok so they didnt try and invade sue to our womens rights issues, but...
So that aspect should have no bearing in why we went in there.
The "its stopping terrorists" line is equaslly crap, theres nothing to stop the terrorists just moving to another country and launching their attacks from there - I really dont think we need to worry about some guy in Afganistan sitting is his bedroom making fertiliser bombs.
The reasons we are there are purely political/financial, but the Gov knows that it cant actually get away with saying that.
Ogden btw, I agree, why is it news when Soldiers, who's job it is to live and die at the command of the Government die - its part of the job, however one that I want to see as few as possible be good/succeed at.
In saying that, it IS a crime that these lives are being lost because of a bunch of cowards @ Westminster Palace.
Supervox
15-07-09, 09:43 AM
I am frankly disgusted (but cannot say that I'm surprised) that Gordon Brown hasn't once visited Wootton Bassett or RAF Lyneham to honour those servicemen that have given their lives in a 'war' that cannot be won.
As for the 'why are our troops there ?'
IMO Tony Blair thought that Iraq & Afghanistan would win him another election just as the Falklands War did for Margaret Thatcher. Unfortunately for him history is obviously not his strongest subject, as if he'd have checked he'd have seen that it's damn near impossible to win this type of conflict against a fanatical enemy no matter how many troops or how much technology you have at your disposal.
timwilky
15-07-09, 09:59 AM
Rights and wrongs of being there I am not going to argue about. British forces are out there so that is what we have to deal with.
In sending troops into any situation, it should be the same as any business venture. A full risk assessment and mitigation exercise before deployment. Obviously not done.
We can moan about lack of helicopters, etc. however, if one lesson came out of Vietnam it was that air superiority was not enough, you have to own the land. This mean troops on the ground.
snatch landrovers should never have been sent out to a country that has 30 years experience of deploying land mines and othe IEDs. Iraq should have been a wake up that the army needed specialised fighting vehicles. Yes better kit is filtering though. But too damm late.
Far better that the early days should have been spent doing real integence gathering and go in with a plan, instead of gung ho on the back of an american president desperate to achieve something.
Of course nobody forced these lads to join up.
In my view, that makes the loss even more poignant.
Bluewolf
15-07-09, 10:30 AM
.
Spiderman
15-07-09, 10:39 AM
"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can: only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity." - Dwight D Eisenhower
Great quote.
Personally i dont think any Govt should be allowed to send thier troops to war until the cabinet that decides the plan FIRST sign their kids up to the forces to show that they honestly believe that war is the only course of action left available and is the coreect and honorable thing and they would happily see their own childrens blood spilt in order to achieve their desired objectives.
Until that happens all wars are run by greedy warmongers out for a profit imo.
I don't cry often but standing to pay my respects to those 8 coffins yesterday cut me up. It's a bloddy senseless waste.
And where were the politicians yesterday? When was the last time the Defense Secretary was at Lyneham - they used to meet every flight that carried our fallen heroes?
Breathe in, hold 2,3 and relax................
Since when did every dead soldier become a hero, anyway?
Spiderman
15-07-09, 11:08 AM
Since when did every dead soldier become a hero, anyway?
Very good point very well made. And its not the dead ones either, they always refer to the heros out there (there being any current conflit).
All soldiers (whatever the country) are hired killers for their country. they agree to take money and should the need arise kill for their country.
ThEGr33k
15-07-09, 11:09 AM
Since when did every dead soldier become a hero, anyway?
I wondered that. Perhaps Hero is not the right word? Id say they are Brave and selfless in some respect... they arnt exactly on a packet. The 18 year old that died was on about 16K a year. :rolleyes:
dizzyblonde
15-07-09, 11:18 AM
I sat with news24 on yesterday, and actually asked my other half to turn it off. I know 8 people died, but they made such a fuss over it, they haven't for many of the others...are they going to carry on making a big fuss everytime someone else is killed, I doubt it. I almost feel that the media was using it as some sort of pantomime tool to get the public opinion more aggravated, but the general concensus is that none of us want the troops there.
These lads indeed signed up to DEFEND our country, not meddle in someone elses just because the leader of ours wants brownie points(as someone else has said)
I turned round to my other half and said, whilst the Gordon Brown speech bored me to tears with his monotone drone about the situation...what he failed to mention is
'no i won't pull our guys out of there, i don't want to show egg on my face, they're going to stay there, stiff upper lips chaps but 'we're British'':smt076
Biker Biggles
15-07-09, 11:23 AM
I just wondered if Mr Cameron has said he would pull the Army out of Afganistan?I dont think so.This isnt a Labour/Tory thing,its more a Political class/the rest of us thing.Hence I do agree that those who make these decisions should have to send their own nearest and dearest to the front line,or go themselves.
madness
15-07-09, 11:23 AM
Since when did every dead soldier become a hero, anyway?
'The literal meaning of the word is "protector", "defender" or "guardian"' - Wikipedia
From this I would tend to argue that all soldiers are 'heros'
madness
15-07-09, 11:28 AM
I just wondered if Mr Cameron has said he would pull the Army out of Afganistan?I dont think so.This isnt a Labour/Tory thing,its more a Political class/the rest of us thing.Hence I do agree that those who make these decisions should have to send their own nearest and dearest to the front line,or go themselves.
It's the same people who advise the government, whether it's a Labour or Conservative one. These analysts know what needs to be done to protect this countries future (economic or otherwise) and will advise whoever accordingly.
Biker Biggles
15-07-09, 11:36 AM
It's the same people who advise the government, whether it's a Labour or Conservative one. These analysts know what needs to be done to protect this countries future (economic or otherwise) and will advise whoever accordingly.
That true and thats who I mean by Political class.Its just a shame that we dont seem to be able to get rid of these parasites who have brought the country to its knees on so many fronts.
Fighting other peoples wars in foriegn lands is something we really should have given up when we stopped being the Worlds Policeman about a century ago.
Spiderman
15-07-09, 11:44 AM
'The literal meaning of the word is "protector", "defender" or "guardian"' - Wikipedia
From this I would tend to argue that all soldiers are 'heros'
But they are not out there "protecting" anything but themselves and their bases etc, they are "defending" against nothing other than those attacking them for being in their country in the first place and they are "guardians" of nothing other than their own out there.
however using you argument you would then have to say that all Afghan soldiers who are fighting against the coallition are also heros. After all they are at least fighting a presence that has come nto their land, are therefor protecting their homeland and are defending their homes from destruction and are the guardians of their communities, no?
i think the word hero should be saved for those who genuinely act in a heroic fashion, way above and beyond what is expected of them to svae another person (friend or foe) from further pain, suffering or death.
We undermine those who do such things by calling everyone a hero.
timwilky
15-07-09, 11:45 AM
I just wondered if Mr Cameron has said he would pull the Army out of Afganistan?I dont think so.This isnt a Labour/Tory thing,its more a Political class/the rest of us thing.Hence I do agree that those who make these decisions should have to send their own nearest and dearest to the front line,or go themselves.
Always worth remembering that Churchill after he made such a hash of Dardenelles campaign that he then served in France in 1915 with the genadier guards and the following year he was in charge of the 6th Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers.
Clement Attlee served at Gallipoli and was wounded in the Mesopotamia campaign. It could therefore be argued that the politicians leading in a time of war should have had some experience of being at the shap end
Since when did every dead soldier become a hero, anyway?
Since they died in the service of their country.
I don't want a row over this. I see things in a rather different way to you, and we will have agree to differ.
Since they died in the service of their country.
I don't want a row over this. I see things in a rather different way to you, and we will have agree to differ.
Spot on.
I don't agree with our involvement, just as i didn't agree with the 2nd Gulf War. Change brought about by self determination is the only lasting change. Having one country impose a change on another only brings about internal strife when the invaders, which we are, leave and the political void gets fought over.
The semantics of Hero is, as we've seen in the thread, argueable. And thank god, whoever your god may be, we have that freedom to argue.
By all means disagree but at least have a metaphorical beer together afterwards.
i think the word hero should be saved for those who genuinely act in a heroic fashion, way above and beyond what is expected of them to svae another person (friend or foe) from further pain, suffering or death.
We undermine those who do such things by calling everyone a hero.
Ta for that - precisely the point I was going for, but I couldn't be arsed with more than a one-liner.
Since they died in the service of their country.
I know which side you're on Ed, so I think you'll agree with me, I think the key point is that whilst there are troops out there, they are not really serving their country. I fail to see how what they are doing out out there is helping the man on the street in the UK.
On the whole hero thing, I think it's very subjective. If a person died whilst defending our very shores against invaders, but their actions saved the lives of the people living here, then the 'hero' tag would definitely apply. Labelling every guy who dies whilst working for the army a hero, just because they've been out there, could be the subject of some debate. Me? regardless of whether they are classed as heroes doesn't matter, I just think it's a damn shame and waste of life.
SoulKiss
15-07-09, 01:03 PM
I know which side you're on Ed, so I think you'll agree with me, I think the key point is that whilst there are troops out there, they are not really serving their country. I fail to see how what they are doing out out there is helping the man on the street in the UK.
On the whole hero thing, I think it's very subjective. If a person died whilst defending our very shores against invaders, but their actions saved the lives of the people living here, then the 'hero' tag would definitely apply. Labelling every guy who dies whilst working for the army a hero, just because they've been out there, could be the subject of some debate. Me? regardless of whether they are classed as heroes doesn't matter, I just think it's a damn shame and waste of life.
According to the Government as I mentioned earlier, they are preventing Terrorism back her in Britain.
Somehow...
Always worth remembering that Churchill after he made such a hash of Dardenelles campaign that he then served in France in 1915 with the genadier guards and the following year he was in charge of the 6th Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers.
Clement Attlee served at Gallipoli and was wounded in the Mesopotamia campaign. It could therefore be argued that the politicians leading in a time of war should have had some experience of being at the shap end
So what you're saying is it's good to have a big ruck once in a while because it's the only way to produce a viable political elite with the necessary skills to take the helm?
Wicked. Next stop Iran?
Spiderman
15-07-09, 01:06 PM
According to the Government as I mentioned earlier, they are preventing Terrorism back her in Britain.
Somehow...
yes but we all know that to big a "spin" to put it mildy. Some would go so far as to say the terrorism that threatens us is due to our troops being there. id the troops never went there there would be no-one wanting to terrorise this country.
Labelling every guy who dies whilst working for the army a hero, just because they've been out there, could be the subject of some debate. Me? regardless of whether they are classed as heroes doesn't matter, I just think it's a damn shame and waste of life.
They know the score when they sign up though. This country has a long and distinguished history of poking its military nose in to other nations' business and joining the armed forces is gambling with your life.
http://www.lyricsdomain.com/4/donovan/universal_soldier.html
madness
15-07-09, 01:12 PM
Lets face facts. Oil and gas reserves are running out in the 'western' world. We all know that we cannot do without oil and gas, so the 'western' governments are 'jostling' for favourable positions in the future supply line. That's why the gulf wars happened, that's why we're in Afghanistan, and thats what controls foreign policy. I can't see anything changing while we are so reliant on oil and gas.
Spiderman
15-07-09, 01:35 PM
Lets face facts. Oil and gas reserves are running out in the 'western' world. We all know that we cannot do without oil and gas, so the 'western' governments are 'jostling' for favourable positions in the future supply line. That's why the gulf wars happened, that's why we're in Afghanistan, and thats what controls foreign policy. I can't see anything changing while we are so reliant on oil and gas.
Sorry i think the word jostling needs putting into real context here, illegaly invading other countries under false pretenses, murdering as many as is required cos they are getting in the way (or in the case of the yanks "private mercenary army" for revenge) with the end aim of STEALING that nations oil or gas reserves.
If i was out of water in my own house it would not be acceptable too break in next door and steal their water. i'd be expected to guy and buy my own.
Even if i said it was too expensive, no one would agree that i could kill someone else and steal whats rightfully theirs.
Tough luck THE WEST is running out of oil, maybe THE WEST should look to other technologies and let those who have an abundance of oil enjoy it or put their hands in their pockets and pay to buy it from them.
Sorry i think the word jostling needs putting into real context here, illegaly invading other countries under false pretenses, murdering as many as is required cos they are getting in the way (or in the case of the yanks "private mercenary army" for revenge) with the end aim of STEALING that nations oil or gas reserves.
If i was out of water in my own house it would not be acceptable too break in next door and steal their water. i'd be expected to guy and buy my own.
Yeah, but if your next-door neighbours was Arabs or something, there's not a jury in the land that'd find you guilty.
yorkie_chris
15-07-09, 01:52 PM
Always worth remembering that Churchill after he made such a hash of Dardenelles campaign that he then served in France in 1915 with the genadier guards and the following year he was in charge of the 6th Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers.
As well as before that in South Africa and the Sudan (IIRC).
Compared to todays bunch who once saw half a pirate copy of jarhead...
timwilky
15-07-09, 01:57 PM
As well as before that in South Africa and the Sudan (IIRC).
Compared to todays bunch who once saw half a pirate copy of jarhead...
Yes but in south Africa, he was allegedly a reporter not a soldier and in the Sudan he was fighting fuzzy wuzzy who invented the tactic much beloved of Haig of using men against bullets in the hope that the opposition run out of bullets.
The fact exists that the vast majority of those in both houses of parliament have no experience of fighting a war and yet are still prepared to send troops to the far reaches of the world to do a job that the former USSR was unable to do.
Geoffrey
15-07-09, 02:07 PM
it is a war based on the possession of oil masked as a war on terror.
i agree with one of the posts above by spiderman in that terrorism is/has come to the uk because of our involvement in afghansitan, not the other way around.
as to whether we will win, highly unlikely...
as to why, our soldiers are not trained in this manner of warfare as the armys tactics are wrong and they know it.
yorkie_chris
15-07-09, 02:12 PM
Terrorism? Where?
SoulKiss
15-07-09, 02:13 PM
Terrorism? Where?
Its behind you !!!
yorkie_chris
15-07-09, 02:15 PM
Its behind you !!!
Good thing my ID card will protect me.
SoulKiss
15-07-09, 02:20 PM
Good thing my ID card will protect me.
Your Improvised Explosives cannot harm me, my ID card is like a shield of steel
hehe
diappointed that you didnt continue the pantomime with an "Oh no it isn't" :)
Biker Biggles
15-07-09, 02:42 PM
Where is all this oil in Afganistan?
I know they do a mean bit of black but not black gold surely?
Spiderman
15-07-09, 02:45 PM
Where is all this oil in Afganistan?
I know they do a mean bit of black but not black gold surely?
:lol: Good one.
no Afghanistan has no oil, its just a nice platform from which the troops can be redeployed locally....once those pesky terrorists stop trying to blow up the gas pipe thats stealing gas out of their neighbours country, that is.
I was thinking about this yesterday as I was watching the 8 guys coming home from Afghanistan, was it really the taliban who did 7/7 and 9/11 ? 9/11 was masterminded by a member of the Saudi royal family called osama bin laden, he was aided by other saudi,s , the same saudi,s who are supposed to be allies of the U.S., Bush played the master stroke of his political life by conning everyone into thinking that Iraq was the driving force behind 9/11 and off to war we went following the yanks into yet another fine mess
Btw on the subject of the hero tag, we live in a country that classes footballers as hero,s, I would have though our service personnel where slightly above that
Spiderman
15-07-09, 03:15 PM
I was thinking about this yesterday as I was watching the 8 guys coming home from Afghanistan, was it really the taliban who did 7/7 and 9/11 ? 9/11 was masterminded by a member of the Saudi royal family called osama bin laden*1, he was aided by other saudi,s , the same saudi,s who are supposed to be allies of the U.S., Bush played the master stroke of his political life by conning everyone into thinking that Iraq was the driving force behind 9/11 *2 and off to war we went following the yanks into yet another fine mess
*1Please dont believe that hype. Not wanting to get into another 9/11 debate here but Bin Laden has never once said he was behind those attacks. he has however said he is glad it happened and about time someone showed the yanks they are very open to attack on their own soil but never took credit for it. If he had been behind it he would gladly have taken credit for such a coup.
*2 Bush never convinced anyone in their right mind that Iraq had anything to do with it, he simply said it and deplyed his troops there. There was never one shred of evidence that Iraq financed the hijackers or was involved at all. Even his senior staff have said this while he was in power and since he left.
I was thinking about this yesterday as I was watching the 8 guys coming home from Afghanistan, was it really the taliban who did 7/7 and 9/11 ? 9/11 was masterminded by a member of the Saudi royal family called osama bin laden, he was aided by other saudi,s , the same saudi,s who are supposed to be allies of the U.S., Bush played the master stroke of his political life by conning everyone into thinking that Iraq was the driving force behind 9/11 and off to war we went following the yanks into yet another fine mess
You're mixing a few different things up there.
The Taliban didn't plan or carry out the terrorist attacks you refer to, but they did have a very cosy relationship with bin Laden / Al Qaeda. Who propelled the Taliban to power? The US, in the form of the CIA, by funding the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan to fight a proxy war against Soviet forces during the 1980s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
I'm not sure Bush convinced many people that Iraq had anything to do with the 9/11 - the US waded in (with our assistance) without really bothering with a UN resolution to back it up.
But, ultimately, if you sign up to the armed forces this is the kind of stuff you can expect to be sent to take part in. Don't like it, or don't want to die, don't sign up. Simple as.
No Im not mixing anything up, I dont think the taliban had anything to do with 7/7 or 9/11, thats why I dont understand why we are in Afghanistan, everyone has fought over the place including the russians and no one has even made a dent
Samurai Penguin
15-07-09, 05:19 PM
Didn't a certain Mr G W Bush have a meeting with the taleban representative, whilst he was governor of Texas) and sign an agreement to build a gas pipeline across Afghanistan?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm
A senior delegation from the Taleban movement in Afghanistan is in the United States for talks with an international energy company that wants to construct a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to Pakistan. A spokesman for the company, Unocal, said the Taleban were expected to spend several days at the company's headquarters in Sugarland, Texas. http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html
According to Afghan, Iranian, and Turkish government sources, Hamid Karzai, the interim Prime Minister of Afghanistan, was a top adviser to the El Segundo, California-based UNOCAL Corporation which was negotiating with the Taliban to construct a Central Asia Gas (CentGas) pipeline from Turkmenistan through western Afghanistan to Pakistan.
Karzai, the leader of the southern Afghan Pashtun Durrani tribe, was a member of the mujaheddin that fought the Soviets during the 1980s. He was a top contact for the CIA and maintained close relations with CIA Director William Casey, Vice President George Bush, and their Pakistani Inter Service Intelligence (ISI) Service interlocutors. Later, Karzai and a number of his brothers moved to the United States under the auspices of the CIA. Karzai continued to serve the agency's interests, as well as those of the Bush Family and their oil friends in negotiating the CentGas deal, according to Middle East and South Asian sources.
When one peers beyond all of the rhetoric of the White House and Pentagon concerning the Taliban, a clear pattern emerges showing that construction of the trans-Afghan pipeline was a top priority of the Bush administration from the outset. Although UNOCAL claims it abandoned the pipeline project in December 1998, the series of meetings held between U.S., Pakistani, and Taliban officials after 1998, indicates the project was never off the table.
Whatever the 'real' reasons for our current involvement in Afghanistan I don't think that freedom, democracy, peace, human rights and the war on (some) drugs are high on the list.
Spiderman
15-07-09, 05:25 PM
Good post Samurai, nice to have someone well read about the truth on here cos sometimes i do feel like i'm fighting an uphill battle trying to correct the spin that people have heard on the news and started to believe like it was fact.
First of all i want to say that i think the armed forces do a great job. They are under paid for what they do that is clear, its a job i couldn't do and if i had to i would want a bucket of cash for it!
However..... anyone signing up to be in the forces understand the risks, no they dont sign up to get shout at and killed but they UNDERSTAND what the risks are, hey it comes with the territory right. Just like if i become a fire-fighter i understand that someday i could get burnt/killed/whatever.
The biggest bug i have with people who say they 'sign up to protect the uk' and not to go to other countries is, well this is amazingly nieve to say the least. Looking back through histry soldiers took the kings shilling for many reasons (never saw the full shilling i may add), the overwheling majoriy of wellington soldiers joined because the big wigs said join up or go to prison, they were criminals you see. Wellington was famous for saying something like they are the scum of the earth and rouges, but the finest rouges in the world, or something like that i cant remember. I think its same for our lads now, leave school with little qualifications, join the army. My girlfrineds brother joined because he was made redundant from a joinary job, hes been in the army for 12 years.... there are lots of reasons....
Another bug i have is when i hear 'i didnt join up to be a pawn in someone else's agenda' ahem excuse me?Since when was the army every used for something OTHER than to gain land/money/oil/power. There is only a couple of examples i can think of when monitary gain wasnt a reason for war, (WW2 i quess) This isnt a new concept, throughout history armies have been in place for the sole benifit of usualy one persons gain. Henry V invaded france with one of the finest english armies asembled just so he could call himself the king of france. He faught in the battle of azincourt, lost a hefy amount of men for his own gains.
I have a lot of respect and time for any service man or woman, its a tough job that i wouldnt be able to do, put me in afganistan and i would cry like a baby :P but what is happening here is what has been happening all allong. Service personelle know the risks they take and they are out there because the guy in charge says so. Its ridiculous i know but nothing has changed......
Ed if you want a good read then I recommend "The Kite Runner" and "A thousand splendid suns" both by Khaled Hosseini. The second book in particular made me realise that our guys are out there to hopefully stop women being treated the way they are. That book made me cry when I realised that in this day and age women are treated so badly and attitudes have got to change.
You won't change the way any middle eastern culture treats its women by waging a war against them. If anything it'll just make them dig their heels in and become even more militant.
If an Afghani army invaded Britain on the premise of making us change our ways, or our government - no matter how crap it was - I'd be fighting them every inch of the way, and encouraging everyone I met to do the same, so I can see exactly why the British, Canadian and American forces have come under so many attacks during their occupation. Why British politicians can't see this is anyone's guess.
Oh yes i forgot, a good film to watch about the USSR occpation of Afghanistan is Charlie Wilsons War. Its got tom Hanks in it so its obviously good :) but that aside you learn allot from it
Paul the 6th
15-07-09, 08:03 PM
asside from being highly articulate and intelligent, ploppy is also actually hilarious in real life :)
The Basket
15-07-09, 08:30 PM
First of all i want to say that i think the armed forces do a great job. They are under paid for what they do that is clear, its a job i couldn't do and if i had to i would want a bucket of cash for it!
However..... anyone signing up to be in the forces understand the risks, no they dont sign up to get shout at and killed but they UNDERSTAND what the risks are, hey it comes with the territory right. Just like if i become a fire-fighter i understand that someday i could get burnt/killed/whatever.
I have a lot of respect and time for any service man or woman, its a tough job that i wouldnt be able to do, put me in afganistan and i would cry like a baby :P but what is happening here is what has been happening all allong. Service personelle know the risks they take and they are out there because the guy in charge says so. Its ridiculous i know but nothing has changed......
I suppose.
But if any person who joins doesn't know the risks or doesn't know that they could be shipped overseas is a fool IMHO.
asside from being highly articulate and intelligent, ploppy is also actually hilarious in real life :)
You should see my collection of potatoes that look like film stars and my comprehensive stamp collection! The life of any party.......... :D
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