Prosecution for driving without due care and attention

[Ceri JC]

What an absolutely ludicrous position for a school crossing!!!

That was my initial feeling too. You almost couldn't of desinged a less appropriate place to have a crossing. The cars should have the good sense not to park there anyway, but that place is crying out for double yellow lines and actually enforcing it with towing.

Experience: I was almost charged with DWDC in a similar situation, but it was (quite rightly) dropped by the CPS as there was no case against me. Transpired it was just one deluded old bat who claimed I was driving "much too quickly" and made them go through the process out of formality, even though several other witnesses verified my claim that I was doing 10mph under the posted 30 limit.

[Ceri JC]

crossing patrol people just don't walk out in front of cars, they are responsible people who are 'vetted' to do a responsible job involving the safety of children. its the responsibility of the driver/rider to look out for such hazards. failing not to notice such hazard is 'driving without due care and attention'.

I completely disagree; if anything steps into your path closer than your stopping distance for the speed you are doing, be it a child, crossing person or animal, physics dictate you cannot stop in time. It is reasonable to expect riders/drivers to be able to spot someone with an intent to cross and slow down accordingly. Also, it is reasonable to expect that the rider/driver is sticking to the posted limit and if conditions dictate, be travelling even slower. Conversely, it is not unreasonable to expect that this responsibilty is removed from the rider/driver who is doing an otherwise perfectly acceptable speed when someone steps out without warning. Physics trump the law in my book and to put the onus automatically on the driver is simply a measure to scare the driver into going slower, rather than a 'just' one.

I have had a crossing person step out in front of me and it wasn't quite an emergency stop, but it was braking considerably harder than I would choose to in normal conservative riding around a built up area with kids about. I've seen some selfish drivers ignore the fact that the crossing person clearly wants to start crossing and eventually the crossing person gets fed up and walks out, 'forcing' the traffic to stop. I don't really have a problem with them doing that. In this instance, however, I was actively watching her, but her body language in no way suggested she was about to cross. She went from talking to a parent to spinning on her heel and stepping out in under a second, making eye contact with me only once she was a good meter into the road.

As to them being vetted and trained: Do you think it is even technically possible to really train crossing people (some of whom are not even car drivers) to understand and accurately predict things like braking distance of a motorbike round a bend (and hence not stepping out unless the distance to the bike is much greater), much less that such training actually occurs? Being given a very generalised statement such as, "motorcycles take longer to stop on bends than cars" doesn't even begin to actually impart the experience and judgement needed to accurately predict this and safely add a margin on to account for perfectly acceptable and expected 'reasonable' rider error...

[Owenski]

Well if you watch the police programmes on TV etc

Caught on camera someone can steal a car... go on a joyride... break the speed limits... dangerous drive... whilst drunk... with no licence... or insurance


THEN GET AWAY WITH IT THROUGH LACK OF EVIDENCE

so hopefull you will be fine, fingers crossed for you.

Corrected for you. ;)

[Tiger 55]

Don't think my faith in the system has anything to do with it mate
That's true, only the existence of God is a matter of faith. My 'mate' to you was a matey 'mate' by the way, like a 'buddy'. Hope it didn't come over as a 'pal' and if it did I blame the Weegie accent.

Apart from faith, luck also shouldn't enter in to this. But good luck me old mucker. :)

[-Ralph-]

Debrief

Arrived in court at 9am, they are on strike today so didn't get a court assigned until 11am.

By 12am the Prosecution lawyer assigned has decided he doesn't think he should run the case, so goes to inform the copper in charge and the prosecution witnesses. They kick up a bruhaha "you can't let him get away with it, etc". So he caves in and decides it's less hassle for him if he runs it than facing complaints, that way if I get off it's the magistrates fault, not his. Mr Telflon slopey shoulders.


Run the case, lollipop man pretty much tells the truth, other than saying that he followed his correct procedure. Actually he helps me out in the end because his version of event largely matched mine, and he said that he saw the roof of my car approaching for about the length of the courtroom (about 45 ft), that I was over 30mph and that he was watching me for 10-15 seconds. My barrister then informed him that 30mph was 44ft per second!

The witness parent tied himself in knots, got agitated, and had to tell bigger and bigger lies and just dug himself further and further in. Apparantly I was doing 50mph and he could see me on approach in full view the entire time, although he was standing with the lollipop man who could only see my roof.

The copper just about ended up in tears, bottom lip quivering, after the prosecution lawyer switched sides momentarily and laid into him as did my barrister. He was in his early 20's and had been doing the job for a year at the time of the incident. He was accused of


Not interviewing me or my wife
Not taking photo's until December
Not checking with the council to see if the signage had been changed
Accusing me of cropping my photos
Sending out forms in the post to the prosecution witness, but not bothering at the same time to send another two to me and my wife
Making judgemental comments on my "poor driving" and deciding that I was guilty before presenting to the CPS


When he left the court he walked past my wife, first thing she asked was "what did they do to him?"

I then had to give my evidence and under cross examination ended up laying into the prosecution lawyer because he used the angry parents version of events, so I just used the crossing patrols statement to support my case. Probably did me no favours, but it showed that I couldn't be tripped up because I was only telling the truth, don't think the magistrate liked it, but hey hindsight is a wonderful thing. There was no way I was accepting the version of events that the prosecution was trying to put forward. Fair play to him though, he is pretty good at doing his job and gave me a hard time.

My wife gave a statement that was consistent with mine, prosecution did give her a hard time, but fair play to him he backed off and asked for her to be dismissed when she started to get stressed and upset by it.

Magistrate went backwards and forwards in his summing up and really gave me an x-factor 'hold it in suspense' finish, but found it not guilty and awarded costs.

A year's worth of stress! Thanks West Midlands Police!

[maviczap]

phew a positive outcome to this thread, which I remember reading from the start

Nice one

[yorkie_chris]

Brilliant outcome. Really glad they gave the copper a hard time.

Shame they can't charge the parent witness for attempting to pervert the course of justice!


Why did the magistrate not like you using the true version of events? There's a nice law that says you aren't required to drop yourself in the s***, and you answering questions nicely would have meant you implicitly admitting the offence! Lay into them all you want!

[yorkie_chris]

P.S where was it lets go and do some burnouts and stuff... "you thought THAT was dangerous?!?"

[G]

Congratulations, pleased for you.

[Specialone]

Col, im glad the outcome was the result we all expected, what still makes me f**king angry and disapointed it the fact you had all the evidence, the witness statements were a joke and dug them selves in doo dah without your help and it still went to court and you and your missus had to go through all that crap.
That so called copper isnt good enough to be directing traffic, he should become a Asda trolley pusher or something (no disrespect to trolleys pushers), i hope he gets a boloking.

Phil

[Old Git]

Result!
Well done chap, :grouphug:.
Glad it turned out OK in the end, but as you said all that time & stress for nothing, what a joke our legal system is sometimes.

[Stu]

So he caves in and decides it's less hassle for him if he runs it than facing complaints,
So that's how justice is decided in this country? Fantastic :roll:

Glad to hear the result. So how creative can you be putting in your claim for costs? It's a shame the Copper, parent & to some extent lolipopman don't have to pay them.

[Owenski]

Excellent mate, glad its finally over ill bet!

My thoughts pretty much mirror stu's such as a waste of time, seems even worse that its paid for by the tax payer.

[Red Herring]

I really like to say a smug "I told you so", but it makes me angry that you had to go through all this just because some copper didn't do his job properly. It's instances like this that knock peoples confidence in the service and undo all the good work that the majority of coppers do. I'm really glad it worked out for you mate, well done.

[21QUEST]

Congratulations bud. I'm really pleased for you :)


Cheers
Ben

[21QUEST]

I really like to say a smug "I told you so", but it makes me angry that you had to go through all this just because some copper didn't do his job properly. It's instances like this that knock peoples confidence in the service and undo all the good work that the majority of coppers do. I'm really glad it worked out for you mate, well done.
Wise words ;)


Cheers
Ben

[Speedy Claire]

That`s wonderful news hun, so glad it had a happy outcome

[Luckypants]

Wont say what I'd like to about the copper, because this is a thread about your case.

Very pleased it turned out right for you Colin. :grouphug:

[Amanda]

Wow!!! First I've seen of this but crikey what a nightmare for you hun. Glad it got the right outcome

[Icanopit]

=D> The truth will out, happy days.

JOHN

[DavieSV]

and......relax :D
Good outcome. I'm pleased for you

[Ed]

hope you got a thick head by now:D

[fastdruid]

Fantastic result. I hope you got (or will get) very very drunk to celebrate now. :)

Druid

[carternd]

Good news for you, I've read the thread through (in several sittings LOL) and it just seems like a nightmare. "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear." They keep telling us this, and wonder why we don't buy it. I must remind myself at the election and vote on the basis of civil liberties.

[ArtyLady]

So pleased for you - common sense prevailed - thank goodness! :D (I knew deep down it would!) but there is no way you should have had to endure all that stress!

Surely there should be better safeguards against this sort of thing (thought that's what the CPS did? :rolleyes:) - for you the innocent victim, and for the taxpayers money for the cost of it all! :mad:

[haggis]

I''m glad you got the right result Col. =D>

As others have said already all that stressing over something that, at the time, you didn't bat an eyelid over. It must have been a crappy experience for your family all this time. I hope you gave a virtual :toss: to the lollypop idiot!


Anyway mate, well done. Go have a virtual beer on us tonight. :D

[sunshine]

If you wasnt driving dangerously this would of never happened, Well done on getting away with it :D:rolleyes::rolleyes:


That lying parent must really hate you then if they risked lying in court. it should never of got to court if the correct procedure was taken really.
Now you will be careful and stop driving so dangerously! I have warned you about it many times now :rolleyes::D:D




i think this post has enough sarcasm for the whole thread ;)

[carternd]

That lying parent must really hate you then if they risked lying in court. it should never of got to court if the correct procedure was taken really.


Or couldn't step back from the position they dug themselves in. A lot of people will keep arguing the toss in the face of blinding evidence just because they can't lose face. The police really should have done their job properly and make an unbiased investigation. Hopefully the young copper has learned a good lesson.

Its a shame it took so long, and so much worry on your part to reach the obvious conclusion.

[-Ralph-]

Angry parent does hate me. Whilst I was talking to the lollipop man through my passenger side window, he thought I was arguing with said lollipop man, and shouted at me across the street through my drivers window. I took one look at him, rolled up the window to my right, and carried on my conversation to my left. He is a Managing Director, probably of a small company, so big fish, little pond, used to everyone falling to silence when he speaks, self important and always has his opinion heard. I prevented him from voicing his opinion which frustrated him immensely, and left him standing there like a prize pr1ck humiliated in the presence of all the other parents. By refusing to hear his opinion and rolling up my window he also thinks I was rude to him.

Like the lollipop man he also believes that a car should be able to stop easily from 30mph (or 44ft per second), if they walk out 40-50ft in front of it, they have no concept of stopping distance, the fact that I had to emergency stop means I MUST have been speeding. Therefore I'm living in his local area and presenting a constant danger to his small daughter, just by being allowed to drive those streets.

He therefore naively believes that the best way to remove that danger for his daughter, is to say to the court, whatever he thinks will get me in the most trouble. All he actually did was help my case, because by lying and getting himself tied knots under cross examination, he completely discredited all of his evidence, and effectively removed a witness from the prosecution case.

[Biker Biggles]

Well done ----Finally.
Interesting though that had you been a less articulate type without access to much help with the case you would probably have been guilty.So much for justice UK eh?

[Warthog]

What an unbelievable story! I am so happy for you that the outcome went your way, but as others have said, it should never have gotten that far. I can't beleive so many people wanted to convict you just because of some "won't somebody think of the children" philosophy rather than thinking about the case practically. 44ft per second and the lollipop man jumping out at 45ft away proves itself! I think you acted very well in this case, taking the right photos and trying to be calm, and it is gratifying to see that justice is done in this case.

[AZ Pete]

congratulations on your outcome.