View Full Version : Hello! I have a few questions regarding a special build.
Firstly Hello!:salut:
My name is Paul and I'm currently the owner of a heavily modified Honda vfr400 nc30 (as are 2 of my friends), the bikes all have complete Ducati 996 front ends, shortened dogbones, aftermarket shocks, 17" 160 section rear wheels amongst other things. Basically we are all very pleased with the chassis of our bikes but we can't help thinking that an sv650 motor would improve the already good bikes. Basically the chassis can take alot more and we want more torque ( I may be wrong but I believe the nc30 produces approx. 28 ft. lb of torque and the sv closer to 60 ft. lb of torque), the nc30 motor is notoriously expensive to extract horsepower from and the sv motor in stock trim is as powerful (and has more torque) as a tuned nc motor. We have recently aquired a written off 07 plate sv650 with 4500 miles on the clock and know the history of the bike. The intention is to install the Sv lump and ancillaries into the nc30 frame (one of the lads is an areospace engineer so if anyone can mount it it should be him) and retain the suzuki clockset etc.
At the moment we don't even know if it will be possible but I have some photos of an nc30 frame with an sv engine offered up by an American guy from the BARF forum, which is encouraging.
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/2213365-p3020006.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/2485507-p6040001.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/2485510-p6040002.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/2485512-p6040010.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/2485515-p6040011.jpg
Admittedly the engine is held by a trolley jack but you get the idea.
Here come the questions, does anyone know the approx. weight of the sv engine? Are the engine mounting points the same on the early and late spec Sv's? (If this works it is likely that the other two bikes would be converted using curvy sv's a s donors due to the cost implications). Is there such a thing as a twin pipe exhaust system available for the Sv? Or a system which exits on the left of the rider? Or high level or underseat systems? Or is it easy enough to make up a link pipe?
Sorry for all the questions - I'm sure there will be more.
Here is a couple of pics my nc which I hope to install the sv engine into.
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/008.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/002.jpg
Thanks for taking the time to read my post, and thankyou for any advice or input, best wishes Paul.
60lb torque maybe the thou the 650 46 maybe.
Oh right thanks for that, still a massive gain!
as far as little v-twin's go you cant go far wrong with the suzook lump will it fit that's the first thing i'd be thinking.
We hope to give it a good go, the donor bike was delivered this morning (unfortunately I'm about 25 miles away from it at the minute) but hope to get over with the verniers and tape over the weekend and soon after over to my friends workshop where I have a spare nc30 frame, I don't doubt the engine itself will fit it is the rads, airbox and carbs/throttle bodies that concerns me.
you can but try if everything goes on it it should leave you with one kick ass little bike.
hhhmmmmm... looks a good project... wonder if the frame would take a sv1000 lump... there also look to be lodsa room to take a 2-1 true under seat exhaust system... also plus point for me it would be TINY...
Nicky S
18-07-09, 03:11 AM
Thats mad cant wait to see the outcum good luck m8
Also welcome to the org
rictus01
18-07-09, 04:12 AM
Curvy engine dry (without carbs) 58kg or so.
Cheers Mark.
Thats interesting that means the v4 engine and the v twin engines are very close in weight (v4 56kg dry) but the nc30 runs 2 rads opposed to the single rad on the sv, the carbs on the v4's weigh around 3.5kgs so there may be a weight saving on the sv too.
The photos of my bike are actually out of date now - I've replaced the rear subframe with an aluminium item which has kicked up the rear considerably so yes there would be space for an underseat system if I needed to go down that route but I must admit I'd like to keep the exhaust exiting in the same position if possible.To be honest at the minute there are more important things to worry about. As far as the bike being small it currently weighs around 170ish kgs wet (about half full tank) but it very tall, I'm 6'1" and its been built to fit me,at a stand still my legs are virtually straight (but I do have short legs for my height if that makes sense). Cheers for the input everyone.
Sid Squid
18-07-09, 08:50 AM
I assisted with the measuring of a project to do similar swap, NC24/SV650, (I lent an engine for the trial fit, but sadly the owner abandoned the project), as I understand it the 24 and the 30 share an engine and main chassis of similar form. If that's so then as we decided it would go in then I think you may well be OK.
All SV650 engines have the same mountings and are dimensionally identical.
Twin pipe systems; none of the ones now available for the SV actually work, and only one ever worked properly anyway. They are a cosmetic addition that only adds weight.
I'm not aware of any system that exits to the left.
Essentially the SV, in standard form at least, isn't held back by the pipework, head-work can be done to extract a dab more go - curvies can easily be fitted with pointy inlet cam for useful ,(and cheap!), improvement.
Interesting project - do keep us posted.
Thanks Sid, the nc24 and nc30 frames and engines do differ quite alot (no parts are interchangable but you are right in the basic designs are similar but the nc30 frame is basically beefier beam frame with different engine mounts). Its excellent news regarding the same lumps in the curvy and later sv's - if we can get the one we have fitted and working it would just be a case of replicating the modifications. Personally I would like a left exit exhaust, this may be possible with a link pipe? But one of my other friends is keen on an sp1/2 style exhaust system purely for cosmetic reasons. Again if and when we can get this project off the ground and everything has undergone a shakedown then it would be the time to look into engine modifications, out of interest what are tried and tested means of extracting power from these engines? Many thanks Paul.
Sid Squid
18-07-09, 10:50 AM
Personally I would like a left exit exhaust, this may be possible with a link pipe?
I'm not sure that will be easy with any of the worthwhile pipework I've seen, the collector is quite far back and all the way out to the right - a function of how the rear header is plumbed in to the system. The rear header, as you likely know I'm sure, passes down through the swingarm then turns forward before rolling around to the right and joining the front pipe at the collector which is roughly underneath, but inboard, of the footrest hanger. A crossover pipe is going to be convoluted at least, there would be a rather sharp turn at least, and it may be awkward to get by the suspension linkage. High level on the right, or fab a new system is my initial thinking.
out of interest what are tried and tested means of extracting power from these engines? Many thanks Paul.
As said, a mix n' match cam swap on early engine gives a useful and simple bolt-on improvement, other than that an overbore is the easiest way to get more go. The standard valves are sized to give useful midspeed VE, so a bigger bore gives a nice bit extra in the midrange rather then top end - as standard it just can't flow enough for a significant top end raise. Induction and exhaust mods don't give much*, and certainly a disproportionally small gain considering their cost.
*One makers wares particularly just gave flat spots - interpreted by a surprising number of owners as a big gain either side of the rubbish bit :confused:.
High level pipework is probably the most sensible option, its just me being a bit of a tart really, It's got a single sided swingarm and I love the way its appearance is at the moment without any pipework covering the wheel. Underseat would be another option, my only "fear" is that it starts looking like some kind of Ducati rep which isn't the intention. As far as tuning goes midrange would be the goal as its a road bike first and foremost which will have occasional track use, again many thanks.
Right then popped down to Murrays at lunch time to take some measurements of the engine in the frame only to discover that he got bored yesterday and split down th Sv. So we decided to pop a front end into a spare nc30 frame and offered in the engine loosely. We made a few discoveries, firstly that with the sprocket aligned in the correct position the engine and throttle bodies do infact fit into the frame, on the flip side the Sv Rad in the standard position is a no go, Murray suggested maybe a side mounted vfr800 or TL1000 style radiator. Also the airbox is a big problem, infact there is no way it could be used as far as I could tell. Perhaps it would be possible to use pod filters or an aluminium fuel cell (we have found a local manufacturer of ally fuel cells, a 3 gallon item would be needed) and a dummy tank to act as sealed airbox maybe? The lower frame spars or the back of the engine would require machining to allow proper alignment/and a tighter fit to the frame. The next step will be to get it down to Jasons workshop for better working conditions and an engineers opinion. Anyway we remain optimistic and here are some rubbish photos.
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/006-3.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/013-3.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/008-3.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/009-2.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/011-1.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/012-1.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/007-3.jpg
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/016-1.jpg
Problem, big problem.
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/017.jpg
Rvf tank fitted over throttle bodies
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/018-1.jpg
psychosomatic88
20-07-09, 02:03 PM
Hi folks.
I am a newbie to the forum and am in kahoots with NcSv (Dear God he says...). The concerned SV donor is that of my partners which a little old lady wrote off whilst I was riding it.
I also own an NC to an identical spec as NcSv's and hope to fit this motor into my NC also.
On sunday we got into my shed for a bit of preliminary fiddling to check on viability. It looks promising so far, but there are certain issues that will need to be addressed. These are off the top of my head, rads, air box, fuel tank and rear sprocket position.
Is it at all possible to run the SV motor on pod filters without too much fuss. I believe that due to the positioning this will almost certainly need to be essential, and with the use of a dummy fuel tank cover due to clearance.
POST accident condition...
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w163/psychosomatic88/DSC00173.jpg
This is basically all the cosmetic damage on the vehicle, the write off came from a bent frame, bent forks/yokes and wheel damage.
A few pics thus far...
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w163/psychosomatic88/DSC00257.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w163/psychosomatic88/DSC00258.jpg
So there we go I guess...
Hello Murray! How do?!
As Murray mentioned we had a chance to have a bit of a prelimary mock up yesterday and on the whole I felt that it went well. The engine itself along with the throttle bodies fit inside the nc30 frame, but the airbox is a major issue, the Rvf tank fits over the throttle bodies without any issues but it doesn't leave much room, as Murray says pod filters maybe an option. We have found a local fabricator who manufactures aluminium fuel cells so a custom 3 gallon item to sit at the back of a dummy tank might be an option. Perhaps a dummy tank cover could be sealed to produce an airbox? The problem with the standard positioned Sv rads would again as Murray mentioned be to use Vfr800 or sp1/2 side mounted rads, as ther is certainly room on at least the right side of the bike as the rider sits on the machine for 1 rad. The next stage will be to get it down to Jasons workshop to get an engineers opinion (and better working conditions!).
Murray have a look at this photo of a standard Sv, in our mock up we've got the front cylinder too high which will be contributing to our problems with the throttle bodies and airbox positions, we had the throttle bodies sat horizontally whereas the Sv has them canted forward (although the airbox probably would remain an issue). We're going to have to cut out the front brace and have it repositioned ?(I think). Do you want to use the black frame for this or the spare standard frame, give a bell and I'll pick up my spare frame from Jasons - its already got the yokes in.
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/1999_SV650_naked_450.jpg
What do you reckon?
Just been checking the 3rd pic I posted from that American guys bike and he has also removed the front brace to gain clearance - should have spotted that really. Asfar as the top rad goes it may be possible to use the standard Nc30 item (I've got a spare in the shed), which of course means that if we can then we can use a Rick Oliver top rad. Here are a few comparison shots.
Our old Repsol bike
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/054.jpg
Our last track bike
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/006-2.jpg
Ricks top rad
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/Picture039.jpg
Heres another quick question for you knowledgable Sv owner types, is it possible to fit the later digital clockset to the curvy wiring loom?
Went round to see my engineer friend today, and he seems to think its a goer, won't be able to get it down to his workshop for a little while due to space issues and other projects, but has suggested that we get ourselves an ally welder and just go for it. The first thing he picked up on was the angle of the engine in the frame in the mock up but doesn't seem to think that we should be too worried about the airbox and he offered up several suggestions, his only concern was whether the Sv uses a ram air set up which could then cause a major headache.
The new ally subframes and battery box turned up this morning for the bike which was nice.
Heres another quick question for you knowledgable Sv owner types, is it possible to fit the later digital clockset to the curvy wiring loom?
AFAIK Stig of the Dump mounted a pointy clock set to his curvy. Not sure everything worked... but the essentials did.
Yes, lots of different clocks have been put on to crashed/modified SVs. You may not have all the features of the pointy clocks (Temp gauge?) that the curvy doesn't have sensors for. I haven't done pointy clocks on mine, so can't shed more light than that.
Sid Squid
23-07-09, 06:55 AM
Heres another quick question for you knowledgable Sv owner types, is it possible to fit the later digital clockset to the curvy wiring loom?
Went round to see my engineer friend today, and he seems to think its a goer, won't be able to get it down to his workshop for a little while due to space issues and other projects, but has suggested that we get ourselves an ally welder and just go for it. The first thing he picked up on was the angle of the engine in the frame in the mock up but doesn't seem to think that we should be too worried about the airbox and he offered up several suggestions, his only concern was whether the Sv uses a ram air set up which could then cause a major headache.
The new ally subframes and battery box turned up this morning for the bike which was nice.
Not directly, the tacho and the temp gauge won't work properly.
yorkie_chris
23-07-09, 09:43 AM
I thought bigape managed to get his working?
Are they digitally connected with the ECU then rather than picking up off a coil?
Went round to see my engineer friend today, and he seems to think its a goer, won't be able to get it down to his workshop for a little while due to space issues and other projects, but has suggested that we get ourselves an ally welder and just go for it. The first thing he picked up on was the angle of the engine in the frame in the mock up but doesn't seem to think that we should be too worried about the airbox and he offered up several suggestions, his only concern was whether the Sv uses a ram air set up which could then cause a major headache.
The new ally subframes and battery box turned up this morning for the bike which was nice.
I'd say careful with where the front cylinder ends up compared to the front wheel.
The SV doesn't use ram air, I don't see any reason why you could not so long as the carb float bowls are pressurised by a take off or pitot tube. (Or if you are using EFI, you keep the air pressure sensor)
Can you do fibreglass? What about purchasing some cheap resin to have a pop with and see if you can squeeze the proper airbox volume out into the voids around the frame? Wouldn't need to be perfect.
The pointy clock conversion gives you all the idiot lights and speedo. The Fi warning states 'check' all the time for obvious reasons. The tacho bounces around and does not read true. I disabled that function in the end because I got bored of watching the needle bounce everywhere. The temperature gauge does not work but only because the naked did not have a temperature sensor to connect to the clock. That one, had I been bothered, could have easily been rectified.
Are they digitally connected with the ECU then rather than picking up off a coil?
Exactly that.
Thankyou for the replies - food for thought there. Just thinking ahead. I currently have a cbr600rr dash fitted to the nc30 and not everything quite works as it should as of yet either! The next issue I've thought of is the fact the nc30/35 doesn't use a cush drive so if this does work it'll eat chains and sprockets. The nc30/35 has a basic form of slipper clutch instead as standard. But I don't cover big mileage each year due to work commitments, teaching, and a young daughter etc so if I had to replace the C+S once a year it wouldn't be terrible I suppose. - don't get me wrong I still try and get out on the bike as often as possible, I try and ride in south wales as often as possible via Ledbury, Hereford, Ross on wye out to aber and Rhayader, etc.
Caddy2000
24-07-09, 07:46 AM
As long as it's only going to eat the chain and not snap it, it shouldn't be a problem.
Just a thought (in my best numpty-style), but would the lack of cush drive / slipper clutch not put extra stress on the drive train (gear box, etc)?
There's going to be a lot of stress and torsion put on the engine internals, that would usually be taken up by the cush drive. I know that the Chain is the weakest link, but after a few chains there will still be a certain amount of stress buildup on the gearbox internals (esp output shaft and bearings?), will they fail after time?
yorkie_chris
24-07-09, 09:41 AM
It must be possible to fit a cush drive wheel.
I agree with the worries about the output shaft bearing, any driving torque causes a resultant force on the bearing. A cush drive goes some way to smooth this into a force rather than repeated hammering.
Good points well put, the earlier nc24 used a cush drive and single sided swingarm so it may be able to retro fit some earlier parts? No idea about other single sided swingarm bikes. One way or another this could be another major stumbling block. I think its better to try and think of any possible problems (and solutions before sinking alot of money into a project like this), any further feedback is gratefully received. All ideas welconmed, thanks Paul.
Right carried out a little more research and it turns out that virtually every single sided swingarm bike with the exception of the nc30/35 has a cush drive including other Hondas, Ducatis and Triumphs. With any luck and a passing wind a different Honda unit may do it.
Caddy2000
29-07-09, 07:53 PM
Any updates?
yes... I think bigape aka Stig of the Dump did it.
will look and see.
Damn, Richie learn to read the entire thread....
Sorry guys.
Thanks for the conversion comparison very helpful.
Not much in the way of progress at the moment, I popped over to collect my own bike off Murray at the weekend and I cut out the brace bar on the mock up frame so that the engine could be angled correctly. But speaking to him he doesn't feel he has the time to do too much to it at the moment so he has suggested this evening that the engine/anciliaries and frame be moved over to my place to see if any further progress can be made. So it looks like I'll have to pop over in the van at some point - maybe not such a bad thing at the moment as the weathers so poo.
Ahh!!! Hello Paul and Murray :smt031
Thanks for linking me in on this. As some people may know I am doing this same mod to a spare NC30 frame, forks and swingarm.
The bit that concerns you about the cush drive - dont NC30 swingarms often get fitted to blades GSXR's etc for streetfighters? How do they get around the lack of cush drive? Alternatively could a slipper clutch be fitted to the SV lump? - Makes it a bit more trick again!! :D
Paul - you are alot further on than me in this project But I hope to catch up or follow along close behind!
Cheers Smev :cool:
yorkie_chris
04-08-09, 08:31 PM
Does a slipper clutch "slip" on the power though? I would not expect so, so it would do nothing to damp out the power pulses of the SV lump.
Right then, made a little more progress. The necessary parts are now back at my place, and the mock up frame is now officially ruined as an nc30 frame! But its all ok as it proves that it will be possible to install the engine sucessfully with all but the engine mount on the bottom of the bottom of the engine. I've removed approx. 20mm from the right hand side of the lower back engine mounting point and approx. 10mm from the lower back engine mounting point. This allows the Sv engine to mount at the correct position utilising the Honda mounting point and also placing the the front sprocket in the correct position aligning with the Honda rear sprocket when used in conjunction with the vfr750 hub conversion fitted to my bike. The Honda Top rad also fits without any issues (that I can see) so if everything works I suspect a Rick Oliver top rad (or similar) will be in order. Hello Smev, hope you find this useful and if you nake any further progress on your project please feel free to hijack the thread, are you going to the Dyno day on the 12th? If so, and I can get a baby sitter then we may be able to share notes.
Okay, slight correction the mounting point on the bottom of the engine isn't even used on the Sv - it must be a production line thing or something, Horay!
Okay, slight correction the mounting point on the bottom of the engine isn't even used on the Sv - it must be a production line thing or something, Horay!
If you mean the tube that runs across the bottom of the engine, just behind the oil filter, I believe it's used for mounting fairings to amongst other things, but is not used to secure the engine to the frame :)
Jambo
Does a slipper clutch "slip" on the power though? I would not expect so, so it would do nothing to damp out the power pulses of the SV lump.
Good point - well presented!
My Mate Chris has lent me a engine so I can check fitment and mock everything up on My frame this weekend :smt040 I'm glad to read that the engine seems to fit with so little modification.
Have you had to make up or machine any brackets Paul? (other than those already mentioned?)
Apparently there are several sensors on/in the airbox which could cause problems with the electronics - hopefully we'll beable to find a way around this.
I should be at the dyno day on the 12th sept - in the process of sorting out my NC30 with road fairings and an MOT.
Smev:cool:
Hi Smev, the engine is still only "loosely" in the frame, it is now mounted via the lower back engine mount, there are 4 mounting points which will be very straight forward with brackets similar to the standard "middle" Honda engine mounts - I'll try and roughly mount something up at the weekend if possible, the frame I'm using for mock up is basically junk and eventually will be weighed in, so I'll just be riveting plates in in the short term. I think I've just sorted out a new frame with V5 for the conversion proper. The nc30 will basically need all of its mounts removed and new ones welded in their place, it will also need a plate, bar or gusset welded in at the front of the frame to counteract the removal of the bracing bar (to allow the fitment of the carbs/throttle bodies). The air box is going to be a major headache as not even the base of the sv air box can be fitted, still where theres a will theres a way!
Oh and Smev show the nice people your bike! It really is a lovely machine.
Ok well here is my NC30 which if the engine fitment goes well may end up with the SV lump in it!
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh170/Smevducati/DSC01448-2.jpg
Alternatively I may just use my track fairing and have it as a dedicated track tool
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh170/Smevducati/DSC00345.jpg
I have the engine in My garage now so some pics may follow at the end of the weekend.
Smev
Lovely bike there Smev.
One step forward - two steps back! Lovely as it would have been to use the altered Honda mounting point at the lower rear it doesn't allow for the fuel tank to fit as it fouls the rear cylinder as the rear cylinder sits too high. Time to try again. I've taken some more measurements and will try again tommorow with any luck.
Right then, sorry for everything going quiet, I have come to some conclusions, it is possible to fit an Sv motor into the Nc30 frame, howeverin order to get the throttle bodies and ancilaries in the engine has to dropped too low in the frame allowing just about no ground clearance with the exhaust system, plus the custom tank, airbox etc. I don't doubt that the right person could make it work, but unfortunately for me the amount of work involved outweighs the benefits (although it would have been fantastic). I will continue improving on the Honda, the shopping list includes a marchesini on the front, stomp grips, a maxton/nitron/ohlins/etc rear shock and some extra crash protection and to get the bike on a few trackdays. Project wise I really need something a little more practical so a standard Fzr400 3Tj is on the cards and then slot in a Foxeye yzf motor in, a tried and tested conversion.
Thankyou for everones input, everyone was very helpful. It does mean I now have a 2007 4400 mile fuel injected motor/injectors/loom/clockset/etc all surplus to requirements if anyone needs anything. All the best Paul.
fastdruid
07-09-09, 10:52 AM
Shame, as an NC35 and SV owner I'd love to see someone successfully merge the two but it seems that lots of people start and then stall (like the original BARF project) or give up.
One thing I did notice (although not much point in telling you now but wtf someone else may try this project and find it useful) is that the injection motor heads protrude more than the carbed engine, I presume this is some kind of emission thing.
If you look at a (very dirty[1]) carbed rear head
http://www.fastdruid.co.uk/albums/SV650/thumbs/640x480DSC04949.JPG
in comparision
http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr73/R1LEY_photos/008-3.jpg
You can see the difference.
Druid
[1] It is a very bad idea to use lots of filler on the tank and then sand it down *on* the bike, the dust goes everywhere.
Dangerous Dave
08-09-09, 03:38 PM
the injection motor heads protrude more than the carbed engine, I presume this is some kind of emission thing.
This is the PAIRS system, as you said only fitted to FI (Pointy) bikes.
yorkie_chris
08-09-09, 08:51 PM
And some US curvies :-P
And some US curvies :-P
but not on head covers. it goes down in to head.
yorkie_chris
08-09-09, 10:29 PM
Heh. The pedantic point still stands :-P
Speaking of specials, have you seen many curvies with TL motors in?
fastdruid
08-09-09, 10:30 PM
I've had my curvy mistaken for a TL a few times ;-)
Druid
Speaking of specials, have you seen many curvies with TL motors in?
I have never seen one.
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