Corporal Punishemt

[custard]

Following on from this thread.

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=137052

should corporal punishment be brought back in to deal with offenders?

discuss.

edit: and if anyone could change the title to read punishment i would be grateful.

[keithd]

nope

too many miscarriages of justice

all of the birmingham 6 would be dead, and many many more

[vixis]

yes. I'm a believer in exodus 21:23 and I would be prepared to be the government sanctioned murderer. It is murder, its just santioned murder. Having said that, I also believe that we need to improve our society a LOT more as a lot (not all, I admit) of the young offenders are there due to idiots being allowed to have children and subsequently abusing them. Give them a hobby like build their own motorbike ;)

[MCN_LiamM]

Yes

[custard]

istepping away from the death penalty - hows about things like birching.

fer instance - persistant offender constantly burgling, TWOCing etc - couple of lashes and public humilation or ridiculous bail conditions that allow him to get away with murder?

[Milky Bar Kid]

Whole big can of worms.....

[the_lone_wolf]

yes. I'm a believer in exodus 21:23...

The day we have a society based around a laughably contradictory book written by fallible humans about an invisible man who doesn't exist is the day society truly breaks down...

It was called the "dark ages" for a reason:rolleyes:

[keithd]

The day we have a society based around a laughably contradictory book written by fallible humans about an invisible man who doesn't exist is the day society truly breaks down...

It was called the "dark ages" for a reason:rolleyes:

hear here

here hear

[Sir Trev]

nope

too many miscarriages of justice

all of the birmingham 6 would be dead, and many many more

Keith - you're thinking of capital punishment. Corporal punishment is physical, not terminal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

[keithd]

Keith - you're thinking of capital punishment. Corporal punishment is physical, not terminal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

aaah thats what happens when you dont read the title properly!!

d'oh !!

:help:

[arenalife]

I think we've had this thread before, I said then that it's pointless considering it unless you can guarantee guilt, look at the many innocents set free 10 - 20 years after conviction who would be dead now. Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, the Cardiff 3 recently, loads of them.

You could even argue that if we'd killed a load of IRA in the 80's (like we didn't anyway nod nod wink wink) the peace process may not have happened.

[Red Herring]

I'm a firm believer in evolution, it's just that as society has developed those cast out by their peers for not living by their rules have been able to survive and breed. I suggest that for their first recordable offence an individual should receive a warning, after all, we can all make one mistake..... On their second they have one testicle (or tube if female) removed. They lose the other one on the third conviction. In a couple of generations we could breed out criminality....mostly. My wife is a GP with a speciality in family planning. She regularly jokes that she is responsible for more crime prevention than I am, and after 23 years as a copper I'm beginning to believe her. Only problem with my plan is by the time they are 18 half these scrotes have already had half a dozen kids with four different girls..... Oh well, it was only an idea.

[Milky Bar Kid]

I'm not really sure what my views on this are. That said, I do think our justice system needs to toughen up on crimes against the person, such as the incident in the earlier thread and things like rape, murder, serious assault, etc etc

[metalmonkey]

Look at this way, if we total money spent on going to war since I have been alive and spent it on getting rid of poverty, on education and health there would be a lot more happy people in world.

Until we do above we have no hope of improving quaility of life for the population of world, let alone the UK. But those in power don't want that, so what are we going to do about it?

Oh just look at Flodria State in the US, when Jed Bush was governer (is he still, i'm not sure) more people than ever were killed by the state, did it have any affect? None what so ever, it doesn't act as detret. Also the vast majority of death row inmates, are from poor backgrounds, uneducated (or very little) as well as having some kind of mental health problem. (tbh most ppl just laugh at, rather than try to understand) It has been said that a society can be judge on its prsion population if thats the case soiceity is in a poor state.

[timwilky]

I have to agree that we need something to prevent the scroats from offending. I do not think most are scared of ASBOs or community service etc. It is a stepping stone on a career path.

I have friends who have done borstal and young offenders etc. The borstal lot did it once and were determined that they would not be going back. The young offenders ones did not want to go back, just lacked a little of the conviction those who had done borstal had not to go back.

Ironically my younger brother was the victim of an assault on sunday where 2 guys threw him down some stairs. He landed on a guy at the bottom who sustained a broken neck and fractured skull. Who was arrested and held overnight? Yes my brother despite 4 witnesses saying he was the innocent victim. It was only when the CCTV was watched next day were the witnesses believed and my brother released. The cops went for the easy arrest, to damm difficult for them to actually do a bit of police work and identify at the time the attackers.

[Biker Biggles]

I regret to say I cannot take seriously the views of people who dont understand the difference between corporal and capital punishment.
That is all.

[Dicky Ticker]

Perhaps if instead of borstal or a young offenders institution where they are with like minded people they were given 2years national service[As was] they could possibly come back into civilian life with a bit more respect.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Perhaps if instead of borstal or a young offenders institution where they are with like minded people they were given 2years national service[As was] they could possibly come back into civilian life with a bit more respect.

Tend to agree with this idea. however, I feel that this will only help the petty criminals, not the likes of your murderers, rapists, people who commit crimes against children.

[Red Herring]

Oh I don't know, they will at least be a whole lot better at killing people....

[MiniMatt]

I doubt there'll be much suprise from my position on this one :D

How do you learn right from wrong as a kid? Do you learn from your parents? From society? Both? If dad resorts to thwapping the kids and mum whenever they wrong him, and when society thwaps people whenever they wrong society what impression does that give to kids? That violence is an acceptable and normal approach to problem resolution. Don't get what you want - break out the fists - smash your wife in the chops, that'll learn her - beat the yobs with sticks, that'll learn 'em.

The very notion that the way to teach the next generation to be less violent is to show them repeated violence is so illogical it's insane.

It's like thinking that a death penalty will deter suicide bombers.

[svdemon]

The day we have a society based around a laughably contradictory book written by fallible humans about an invisible man who doesn't exist is the day society truly breaks down...

It was called the "dark ages" for a reason:rolleyes:

So very well put!

[Scooby Drew]

I regret to say I cannot take seriously the views of people who dont understand the difference between corporal and capital punishment.
That is all.

Quite ;)

[ophic]

I doubt there'll be much suprise from my position on this one :D

How do you learn right from wrong as a kid? Do you learn from your parents? From society? Both? If dad resorts to thwapping the kids and mum whenever they wrong him, and when society thwaps people whenever they wrong society what impression does that give to kids? That violence is an acceptable and normal approach to problem resolution. Don't get what you want - break out the fists - smash your wife in the chops, that'll learn her - beat the yobs with sticks, that'll learn 'em.

The very notion that the way to teach the next generation to be less violent is to show them repeated violence is so illogical it's insane.

It's like thinking that a death penalty will deter suicide bombers.
its a good point, but i'd counter it by saying that you end up with a society that abhors violence so much that it won't defend itself. And hence stops existing as soon as someone with a less enlightened view of violence comes along. And this is kinda what it happening today. Those people willing to employ violent tactics get further than those who don't.

The other problem is, if someone doesn't get dissuaded from doing something by a good whack (which is a fundamental learning process - ow that hurts, won't do it again) then removing their liberty isn't going to reform them either. Then you have the issue of just what to do with these people who won't fit into society - well lock them up, great. But now the prisons are full and there is a tremendous burden on the taxpayer, which just continues to grow.

No system is perfect, but society needs a mechanism to defeat those who threaten it. If prison isn't reforming them, then its effectively just a buffer until it gets too big to handle. Then you're back to square one.

So... what to do? btw i don't advocate shooting or beating them either, but there is no answer here. I'm all for doing what is required, so if a better solution doesn't present itself, hand me the rifle.

[Spiderman]

yes. I'm a believer in exodus 21:23 and I would be prepared to be the government sanctioned murderer. It is murder, its just santioned murder. Having said that, I also believe that we need to improve our society a LOT more as a lot (not all, I admit) of the young offenders are there due to idiots being allowed to have children and subsequently abusing them. Give them a hobby like build their own motorbike ;)

I'm with you on a majority of this, however the passage in full goes on to say this too:
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe

And as a very wise man once said, in a very moving speach... The rule of an eye for an eye just leaves the whole world blind
That was by Dr Martin Luther King Jr by the way.

[keithd]

I regret to say I cannot take seriously the views of people who dont understand the difference between corporal and capital punishment.
That is all.

keep your pompous hat on!! i said i made an error, deal with it.

that is all.

[the_lone_wolf]

I regret to say I cannot take seriously the views of people who dont understand the difference between corporal and capital punishment.
That is all.

That'll be "don't" then?

:rolleyes:;)

[Spiderman]

now, now lets all play nicely boys n girls....
The discussion is about CORPORAL punishment, known variously as getting the cane, the slipper, the ruler etc etc.

I got caned at school once... the teachers caught me and threatened to tell the cops if i smoked dope in school again :lol:

Now carry on, this could be an interesting discussion.

[maviczap]

this thread started off by how we sholud treat offenders and I'm not going to sit in either camp. I have my views, which some will agree or disagree with, whatever.

However maybe part of the problem is society and the what we treat each other. Things like respect have gone right out the window.

Half the problem is that teenagers have nothing to do, or it costs lots

In Germany teenagers have to do compulsory National service. i'm not sure if they still have too, but my wifes cousin did. This was only a few years ago.

They can volunteer for one of the military services or some sort of community service. Now before you all jump on me, this doesn't mean they get shipped off to Afganistan if they choose the military option.

My wifes relative opted for the community service option and worked in a hospital, helping out. In some small way the kids learn respect and how to be helpful on this sort of scheme

Generally they don't have the same social problems in Germany that we do, but I guess thais is due to a lot of factors.

My suggestion is not about what punishment to dish out, but MAYBE and I say again MAYBE something to stopped people offending in the first place. Keep em occupied, the devil makes work for idle hands.

I'm not suggesting that the Germans are perfect by any means, but this compulsory service would keep kids busy.

A derail of this thread slightly :rolleyes:

[Jayneflakes]

I read a great book a little while ago that featured a main character called Alex who was the typical teenage tearaway, car theft, burglary, violence and the like and he was imprisoned and then experimented on by Psychologists to invoke revulsion at anti social behaviour. Sadly the treatment did not seem to work too well and he became a rather pathetic individual until he eventually grew up and matured. Then he developed his own moral outlook and became a whole lot nicer.

Good book, well worth a read, in fact I think they even made a film of it a while ago. I believe it was written by Anthony Burgess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange).

[Spiderman]

haha, knew what it was before i got to the end of the first paragraph jayney...cept you should have said ultra violence of course ;)

[ethariel]

'Mmmmmm i'm 14 to 15 years old and guilty of breaking into 100+ cars just for the hell of it. I take pleasure in relieving myself in the car, 'marking it up' and stealing the usless stereo front, the GPS Holder and the 34p in coppers in the ashtray....man it's great to be a kid, knowing that in a few years i have to start running drugs or such like to make real money, just like my brother.

All the police ever do is wag a finger at me or send me to another home, then i say a carer touched me and im back out to 'do another car' it's great!'


Take the little sod to the town square on Sunday and birch him till he bleeds and cries for his mummy, do it a 2nd time and a 3rd time, he will either finaly realise it's just not the done thing or end up old before his time in a real prison cell rotting away for life on a 3rd strike is life without parole rule.

Bring back Victorian values, make Prison 'Punishment' again, 6x8 cell with 2 or 3 bunks, slopping out, 23 hour lockup.

Down with the nanny state, lets have a set of 'Victim's Rights' for a change, allow 'Victims' to look thier persecuter in the eye before they are flogged in public.

Little harsh you think? - Well i don't think it's harsh at all

[-Ralph-]

I don't know.

But...I'm going to play devils advocate

I don't know much about middle eastern culture, but am I right in thinking that societies exist where you loose a finger if caught stealing? In these societies am I right in thinking that the deterrent works and there is very little stealing goes on?

The threat of castration if caught for rape would surely focus the minds of the potential perpetrators into controlling their sexual urges.

For me though, any form of corporal punishment would need to be applicable only to the most heinous of crimes and would need to be proved without any doubt, as opposed to just proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt, so I'm talking DNA evidence, etc.

I don't think birching would achieve much, by the same psychology that we rationalise riding motorbikes and danger, a criminal can rationalise committing a crime and taking a punishment...

1. We ride bikes, 2. we know we may crash, 3. we do everything to avoid it 4. we crash, 5. it hurts, but so long as we don't kill ourselves or do any permanent damage, we know that we will heal, 6. eventually we heal and we ride again

1. The criminal commits a crime, 2. he knows he may get caught, 3. he does everything he can to cover his tracks, 4. he gets caught, 5. he gets birched and it hurts, but it doesn't do any permanent damage and he knows that he will heal, 6. eventually it heals and he reoffends

To make any difference corporal punishment has to take a form whereby the criminal cannot rationalise the punishment, before he commits the crime, ie: the punishment has to be so unthinkable to him (ie: loosing his balls), that he puts any thoughts or intention of committing the crime out of his mind.

Like I said, I don't know if corporal punishment is the right way to go, but I'm playing devils advocate and throwing the cat amongst the pigeons a bit.

I do agree with smacking for kids, but if smacking is used effectively, then it is never needed. When a kid knows for sure that a smack will be administered if he crosses a consistent boundary, for instance after the third time he's been warned about something, then he won't cross that boundary and so the smack is never needed. If you smack kids regularly, and with no consistency as to when and why they get a smack, they actually get used to being smacked and so the punishment ceases to have an effect, and for a child to reach this hardened emotional state IMO is tantamount to abuse.

[Ed]

State whippings and beatings? Didn't anyone look at the videos of the G20 protests? FFS we have it already:rolleyes:;)

On the wider issue...

Never.

If I were a juror in a trial of someone accused of a crime where the punishment might be a beating, no matter how strong the evidence I would refuse to convict. Just as in any case where hanging was possible, there too I would refuse to convict.

[Spiderman]

'Mmmmmm i'm 14 to 15 years old and guilty of breaking into 100+ cars just for the hell of it. I take pleasure in relieving myself in the car, 'marking it up' and stealing the usless stereo front, the GPS Holder and the 34p in coppers in the ashtray....man it's great to be a kid, knowing that in a few years i have to start running drugs or such like to make real money, just like my brother.

All the police ever do is wag a finger at me or send me to another home, then i say a carer touched me and im back out to 'do another car' it's great!'


Take the little sod to the town square on Sunday and birch him till he bleeds and cries for his mummy, do it a 2nd time and a 3rd time, he will either finaly realise it's just not the done thing or end up old before his time in a real prison cell rotting away for life on a 3rd strike is life without parole rule.

Bring back Victorian values, make Prison 'Punishment' again, 6x8 cell with 2 or 3 bunks, slopping out, 23 hour lockup.

Down with the nanny state, lets have a set of 'Victim's Rights' for a change, allow 'Victims' to look thier persecuter in the eye before they are flogged in public.

Little harsh you think? - Well i don't think it's harsh at all
Nope, i dont think its harsh at all. Victims of crime get overlooked in favour of "clan up" rates and stats that make the police and other bodies look good. I'd go one step further than you too on this mate, the food they get is just about enough to sustain them for the day. If they behave well and do work rondthe prison they earn a little more food.

I don't know.

But...I'm going to play devils advocate

I don't know much about middle eastern culture, but am I right in thinking that societies exist where you loose a finger if caught stealing? In these societies am I right in thinking that the deterrent works and there is very little stealing goes on?

The threat of castration if caught for rape would surely focus the minds of the potential perpetrators into controlling their sexual urges.


Yes in a few countries its still common practice, as i beheading publically. But bear in mind that this system is open to huge abuse and you could claim your neighbour stole from you and the chances are he would get the same treatment if he didnt pay the police/state a "fee" (read bribe) to leave him alone.

Re castration....No, i dont think it would sadly. We discussed this when i did A level law. I played devils advocate and said all sex offenders should have a prominent tattoo on their forhead or back of their hand so everyone knows who they are and what they've done.
The flaw with this idea is that there would be a lot more adused and murdered people than just abused people. When they know the punishment is severe and life changing some people wont stop offending but will decide not to leave anyone as a witness to their crime.

For me the only time i would agree to a severe physical punishment rather than a tough jail sentance is if the person was caught in the act or fleeing from the scene and there was no shadow of a doubt they were quilty. Ie the rapist who runs cos his victim screams and local people tackle him to the ground and hold him till the cops come. No doubt cos he had scratches on his face where he was fought off and his DNA was under the victims nails. Done. Short court case followed by an immeadiate punishment suitable for the crime

[Geoffrey]

yes corporal punishment should be introduced, but the justice system needs to improve first

[timwilky]

We know how to punish our criminals here in Chorley (http://www.chorley-guardian.co.uk/chorley/Chorley-ASBO-yob-fined-just.5521534.jp)

[maviczap]

We know how to punish our criminals here in Chorley (http://www.chorley-guardian.co.uk/chorley/Chorley-ASBO-yob-fined-just.5521534.jp)

Yes, your magistrates really know how to dish out the punishment :smt021

A sppeding motorcyclist would be a different case altogether. Shot at dawn without any last wishes

This justice system really has got it wrong these day :scratch:

[Quedos]

Bring it back to the public domain!
the justice system needs sorted before anything else

other wise - bring back stocks and rotten veg (might help with the food mountains as well) with a huge placard stating the crime
go for public humilation. I'm a believe in shaming them - will need to be policed/stewarded but if you were 15/16 chained to other wrong doers wearing a bright pink boiler suit thats states I am a drink driver picking litter at the side of the road subject to bribes and snears would you do it again. Either that of put them behind the cones as roadwork and let them have all the abuse and lissle hurled at them instead of the workers

Examples of public humiliation are harder to find, but there are some American judges out there who have blazed a trail. Judge Mike Cicconetti, of Painesville, Ohio, is something of a market leader on this. He once sentenced three men convicted of soliciting sex to wear bright yellow chicken costumes carrying a sign saying "No Chicken Ranch in Painesville", a reference to a famous Nevada brothel. He also ordered a man and woman convicted of vandalising a statue of the baby Jesus to walk around town with a donkey. Other local wrongdoers have been made to share a sty with pigs.

OR this (http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/etzioni/B173.html)

[Biker Biggles]

That'll be "don't" then?

:rolleyes:;)


Right.Ill (Sorry I'll) do the pompous stuff if you deal with the pedant bit.:rolleyes:;)

Just to keep on topic,are we flogging a dead horse here?:D

[SoulKiss]

Right.Ill (Sorry I'll) do the pompous stuff if you deal with the pedant bit.:rolleyes:;)

Just to keep on topic,are we flogging a dead horse here?:D

Only if your a Kinky Necrophile into Bestiality :)

Now, what would the punishment for that be?

[Biker Biggles]

Only if your a Kinky Necrophile into Bestiality :)

Now, what would the punishment for that be?

That would have to be an ASBO banning you from the abbatoir:smt115:takeabow:

[SoulKiss]

That would have to be an ASBO banning you from the abbatoir:smt115:takeabow:

And under our new Corporal Punishment regime?

Semi-serious, after all what IS a valid punishment for someone who has only committed an offence that hurt no-one, and didnt deprive anyone of property?

[Quedos]

That would have to be an ASBO banning you from the abbatoir:smt115:takeabow:

ASBO for a first offence - you lot are harsh - they designed as a last resort after other interevtion have failed!!

would you not try to answer why he want a horse and possibly place on service in an abbatoir with supervision to try and cure the compulsion:scratch:

[Quedos]

And under our new Corporal Punishment regime?

Semi-serious, after all what IS a valid punishment for someone who has only committed an offence that hurt no-one, and didnt deprive anyone of property?


should there be punishment? but then again on the same lines - should there be punishment for prostitution - if they willing do it hurt no one etc etc i suppose where do you draw the line tho

What about the horse did he kill before it the act and who's was it? i suppose thats the answers you would need to find out

[ArtyLady]

nope

too many miscarriages of justice

all of the birmingham 6 would be dead, and many many more

I agree with Keith

[Spiderman]

I agree with Keith

D'oh! Bt he made that statment when he thought this topic was CAPITAL punishment, not CORPORAL punishment which is what the topic is.
;)

[ArtyLady]

D'oh! Bt he made that statment when he thought this topic was CAPITAL punishment, not CORPORAL punishment which is what the topic is.
;)

D'oh! :-k...........oh well I'm still against Capital punishment - and Corporal punishment - my reason being the same as my reasons against Capital punishment (if that makes sense ;))

[Biker Biggles]

Pompous hat again------I rest my case.

[ArtyLady]

Pompous hat again------I rest my case.

Keep yer hair on!! :rolleyes: I do know the difference (I am halfway through a degree so am not thick) - I just read it in haste - some of us have (self-employed) work to do and just dip in the forum now and again ;).

[Biker Biggles]

Actually I'm thinking of changing my user name to Biker Biggle's just to annoy the apostophe pedants:rolleyes::)

[Spiderman]

Pompous hat again------I rest my case.

BB you having a bad day mate. Its no like you to be like this. :confused:

I;m used to you being the king of hillarious one liners.

I'm not a spelling or grammar warrior like ohers on here and as Arty knows i'm far from pompous but i was attempting to steer the discusion along the right lines as some people do firmly believe in one and not the other.

off topic warning..whoop, whoop/
You ever gonna come out of hiding and come to a soho meet one day, or an AR?
Or are we gonna have to have a Hunt The Biker Biggles all round the streets of Barnet till we find you?
0ff topic warnning finsihed.. whoop, whoop/

[Biker Biggles]

To put us back on topic:D
I consider myself suitably chastised:smt021

[Spiderman]

tavctfully avoidded my question by putting the thread back on topic damn you :lol: