View Full Version : Young people having Kids...
ThEGr33k
10-08-09, 11:30 PM
No jobs, 15, and pregnant and sponging entirely off of the state, or sorry, off of us working people.
Saw underage pregnant kids program and there was one family, single mother 2 kids, both pregnant at similar times, one 17 one 15. Mother got £500 off the bat to look after one of the kids gave birth. What!? None of them worked, not even the mother. Mother had a nice house, well looked nice considering they dont work!!!
Then there was another one, a spoilt little brat, parents actually seemed allright. Boy friend 20 (GF just 16 and about to have Kid...) didnt have a job. Had the Kid and they were planning on moving out of their parents house. They were shown "Just looking through the paperwork for a house". The way they were talking about it was as though they had some sort of right to it...
To be honest it made me sick. We work most of our life and get fleased for tax, dont get looked after at all (look at the pension thing atm), and these youths that have done nothing but take; come along and get everything for nothing and no doubt never will give anything! Makes my Blood boil!:smt076
Oh and as a last point, apparently 34% of the national spending is on Benefits!!!!!! A third. WTF!?!? (NOTE, this might not be accurate?)
Please Discuss. :smt023
dont blame the kids... blame the gov..
the only way to secure benefits and get a house off the council is to have a child... so thats what teenagers are doing.
i know it not right but most of these kids have difficulty in finding a job that that pays enough to get them on the property ladder.
even with a minimum wage job they are coming home with the same money that they would have sitting on the dole. so their attitude is why work.
Graciepants
10-08-09, 11:49 PM
you're generalising a bit arent you?
i know someone that had a child while taking her GCSEs.
for 4/5 years she was on benefits, and she HATED every moment of it. yes i know lots of people take advantage, but she was on benefits because she had no other choice, her parents worked and she couldnt get a full time job as she wanted to look after her baby daughter, so she worked nights as a chef at my work to get as much money she could and trying to get a computer qualification until the child was old enough to go to school/play group where she could get a much more permanent job to support herself.
just be aware not everyone is a leech
34%!!! That sounds an unrealistically high proportion of government spending.
I'll be majorly surprised if that is true. Where did you hear that?
ThEGr33k
10-08-09, 11:59 PM
Anyone ever seen Starship toopers? It should be like that.
Grace, I know not everyone does have a kid to take advantage of the system. I wasnt really saying that was the case, Id didnt sound like that was the case with these two children I saw. But its still the case that Im having to pay for other people's actions... Why should I have to? Its quite simple in my mind. You shouldnt have a kid if you cant afford it.
Hard line im taking I know but when I see all those taxes being taken off me and then seeing what I dont get back (pretty much nothing) it kinda gets to you... :(
Thingus
11-08-09, 12:00 AM
34% is probs off the mark a bit :p but it'll be a fair whack. Anyways yeah it's hard to dump everyone in a group an' i wouldn't wanna judge that particular group on anything other than a case by case basis...
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 12:03 AM
http://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/fiscal-policy/government-spending.html
There Ya goes. Works out to 24%, sorry my bad.
Graciepants
11-08-09, 12:12 AM
Its quite simple in my mind. You shouldnt have a kid if you cant afford it.
Hard line im taking I know but when I see all those taxes being taken off me and then seeing what I dont get back (pretty much nothing) it kinda gets to you... :(
and you think that if if everyone was banned from having kids until they could prove they could afford it tht they'd lower taxes? lol
although admittedly it would hopefully go to a better cause than kids who just couldnt be bothered to use a condom - but maybe they should be taught? i wasnt ever taught as i went to a church of england school, maybe bibio is right and the gov is partly to fault?
lukemillar
11-08-09, 12:16 AM
Saw underage pregnant kids program ...
I would imagine this is biased. With a demand for 'car crash' TV, I doubt they woulkd commission a documentary following teenage pregnanvies where everything worked out out, parents held regular jobs and the only thing which separates them is their age. Viewing figure would be terrible! Instead they pick a few extreme cases and then leave you thinking this is Britain!
Oh and as a last point, apparently 34% of the national spending is on Benefits!!!!!! A third. WTF!?!? (NOTE, this might not be accurate?
Did you just make that up!?
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 12:20 AM
and you think that if if everyone was banned from having kids until they could prove they could afford it tht they'd lower taxes? lol
although admittedly it would hopefully go to a better cause than kids who just couldnt be bothered to use a condom - but maybe they should be taught? i wasnt ever taught as i went to a church of england school, maybe bibio is right and the gov is partly to fault?
The Government certainly isnt doing it right imo. I think there are a few major issues.
Kids are bored. So they go out drink on the street corner and have sex. The Government pays out for them to live a comfortable life when this happens. And as you say not very good education. Another might be that Kids also get away with far too much. Either because parents cant be bothered and dont care or are scared of getting in trouble for sorting the kid out.
I think the major one is no one frowns on it or cares and the people who are in the situatin blames everyone else. We cant blame the government really, its the people doing it who are to blame ultimatly. The amount of lasses on the show (there were others on for short periods) blaming the bloke was mad. Im sorry but it takes two to tango and if they cant be bothered to use contraception I cant see how they can really complain!
The First is an easy fix if the government is willing to look into it and spend money, which in the long run would save money (how often does this crop up though?). The 2nd isnt so easy... With the human rights they wont do anything about it and its their "human right" to help over populate the world apparently. Education isnt so easy. Is it better that the vast majority are oblivious to it all and a minority do have underage sex or is it better that everyone knows and gives it a go? I think thats the big issue there. The last one, well its all getting far too OTT. Anyone knows the difference between being stern and punishing, and beating/mistreating. :rolleyes:
Ha, I never realised I was so right winged...
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 12:30 AM
I would imagine this is biased. With a demand for 'car crash' TV, I doubt they woulkd commission a documentary following teenage pregnanvies where everything worked out out, parents held regular jobs and the only thing which separates them is their age. Viewing figure would be terrible! Instead they pick a few extreme cases and then leave you thinking this is Britain!
Did you just make that up!?
Well one of the examples did have a normal family. All the older siblings were older and hadnt had the same experience of the younger one. The younger one was apparently spoilt and could get away with anything... Obviously. I cant imagine there being many underage parents that have earnt enough money to afford a child so its practically all going to be "car crash TV".
I did read them somewhere. Seems that source was a little out, or at least for this years expendatiure. 24% this year goes on social bennefits.
454697819
11-08-09, 07:12 AM
and you think that if if everyone was banned from having kids until they could prove they could afford it tht they'd lower taxes? lol
although admittedly it would hopefully go to a better cause than kids who just couldnt be bothered to use a condom - but maybe they should be taught? i wasnt ever taught as i went to a church of england school, maybe bibio is right and the gov is partly to fault?
My C of E school taught sex ed...
still.. quite capable of getting into trouble.
Dicky Ticker
11-08-09, 07:46 AM
Old gits perspective----------------
In my day underage pregnancies were hidden under the covers.The kid either had the baby and it was put up for adoption to a two gender family who could afford to give the child a decent up bringing.
OR---the child was kept by the mother and brought up in the confines of the immediate family.
The nanny state didn't dish out money,houses and help like todays brigade seem to think is the best way of dealing with it.
Perhaps if these older virtues were reverted to the youngsters would be less likely have the kids and considering all the alternatives available to avoid the pregnancy why have it in the first place if you know you aren't going to be on easy street.
I am not saying that teenage and under age pregnancies didn't exist in the 50's
but they were definitely not the drain on the state that they are today and in the
environment I was raised in the stigma was very hard to get rid off should you be in this unfortunate situation.
May I also comment that where underage pregnancies were concerned a prosecution followed if the name-names could be obtained.
Obviously this state does not mind spending your money and if they need more for the coffers they will tax you more
I fail to see how this is the government's fault; society maybe, but not the government.
"Benefits" is a very loose term. The nursing allowance paid to an OAP in need of 24 hour nursing care is a "benefit"
timwilky
11-08-09, 08:07 AM
My granddaughter was born to a schoolgirl mum. She is a fantastic mother, far better than my younger daughter who gave birth to god knows who's kid at age 23.
Because Ruth did not know she was pregnant (Had been out on the horses the day she gave birth etc) she had a slightly longer hospital stay, but did leave during the day to go back to school to do her GCSE's. Apart from her first that was done in the hospital with a teacher also sat in the room.
My lad bought a house for them. Not rent, no DHSS etc. He went out and scraped up a deposit and got a mortgage. Ruth works 3 days a week in a local pharmacy now. We have Ruby one of those days, The other grandparents have her one and she is in nursury the 3rd.
Please don't tar all kids with the same brush, just because they made a mistake, doesn't mean as people and parents they are a waste of space. Some learn from it, grow up and take responsibility.
Owenski
11-08-09, 08:09 AM
too much to rant about on this topic that a few hyper sensatives will take personally so I wont bother instead I'll use the * :D
* Greek I fully understand your OP and it sickens me when I see it happening locally.
* Grace shows the argument against the generalisation - The question is who decides the genuine from the sponging?
* Luke makes an excellent point about the tv ratings and selective editing.
I'm fully aware we cant take benifits away, there are single parents out there who need the money to make a life for them selves and they are truely trying. But what should happen is more screening/selection going into what is granted to people. I like the idea I've heard where no housing is offered, I dont understand why having a child should gift people with a house if your unable to provide a decent enviroment for a child then here's an idea... Dont have one! If you want the child and want to make it work then brilliant but dont expect to get a life handed out on a plate from the gov, your mess your problem.
The current British set up encourages people to live like they do in "Shameless" totally entertaining from the outside, but when its 30% of your earnings which fund those ****s then you have a right to be annoyed.
Dicky Ticker
11-08-09, 08:10 AM
Immediate family taking responsibility.
Oh - a passing bandwagon, I must jump on.
How many on here have read 'How Green Was My Valley'? It tells a story of societal problems in the Welsh valleys, teenage pregnancy included. The literature is wonderful, beautiful prose. Strongly recommended.
Of course benefit payments are high - because of the recession there are few jobs around. Many on here will claim benefit in one shape or another, and many of those on here who work will claim tax credits. What's wrong with that? Parliament has legislated that people are entitled to a certain amount, and if people claim it then good for them I say. If you don't like it then do something, like lobbying your MP, and stop complaining.
As for teenage pregnancies, the issue is far more complex than 'oh, I want a house so I'll get pregnant and the council will give me one and they can pay the rent too' but putting it in this way sells papers and is nice and emotive.
arenalife
11-08-09, 08:46 AM
You've got to use it to your advantage! We've got a 16 yr old tennant with a baby installed in our other house, her benefits are paying the mortgage on it, it's like a free pension. I'd like to get another house to rent out like this. Now when I see my tax taken out at the end of the month, I know I'm getting it right back!
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 08:47 AM
You've got to use it to your advantage! We've got a 16 yr old tennant with a baby installed in our other house, her benefits are paying the mortgage on it, it's like a free pension. I'd like to get another house to rent out like this. Now when I see my tax taken out at the end of the month, I know I'm getting it right back!
Ha ha, Joy :) You should thank us all as well :p
james160987
11-08-09, 09:11 AM
havent read the comments but completly agree with OP
What makes my blood boil about it is,
dont work, get kids, get a house, cheap/ no rent, if become unemployed no rent, benefits that seem to be able to afford luxerys aswell more than i can afford sometimes it seems,
im 21, i rent a home with my girlfriend, her twin sister and my best mate, we all work,
if one of us got made re-dundant how much help do you reckon i would get from the goverment ? im guessing pretty much nothing,
always made me wonder at school how i came from a working family, and i couldnt get free school dinner, had cheap clothes (primark etc) yet the low income non working benefit people had nike trainers, and free school dinners,
pretty much seems that hard working get done over, non harding working familys on benefits get it all handed to them, they bring up their kids to know the system and the cycle continues,
Miss Alpinestarhero
11-08-09, 09:24 AM
I watched a similar programme last night which had 3 x teenage friends in Rochdale who all ended up pregnant.
Obviously not everyone can be smeared with the same brush, there are some young mums out there who do an excellent job and genuinely work hard to provide for themselves and their child. Unfortunately, I think these cases are a rarity.
Back to the topic in hand, I think there are many factors which are causing such mayhem in society in terms of people not being bothered to work because they get the same (if not more) in benefits. And I guess it doesn’t just apply to teenage pregnancies, it applies to a wide range of lazy buggers who don’t want to work along with those who cheat the system - its these people which make me really angry because they are the people who are getting our taxes spent on them. I get really annoyed everytime I open my payslip and see a huge fat lump of my money going on taxes - I can't even see any good uses for it :smt093
My personal view is that the following needs to be sorted out and improved
1) young people today are bored out of their skulls, especially those who live in poor areas. There is nothing to do apart from “drink, get stoned and have sex” (the exact words of one of the kids on the programme I watched last night). So kids need something to do so that they don’t end up in a rubbish situation and end up ‘sponging’ off the state
2) changing attitudes in society – teenage pregnancies are more accepted now compared to the previous decades. Note: by accepted I don’t mean people agree, I mean that they are not hidden away and outcasted like Dicky ticker said.
One of the easiest ways to get a place to live is if you’re single and pregnant – this is a nice idea if you’re genuinely stuck but this system needs to be regulated more – if the young person has a family home then they should be forced to stay there, not given a flippin’ home that they cant even look after.
3) crap benefit system which doesn’t really check peoples eligibility. And it doesn’t actually do anything to help people to get off it. I was on job-seekers allowance for a while when I finished uni (and I HATED it). In 2 months, I wasn’t asked once how my job search was going. It was literally a case of “gimme your book, sign, off you go”. WTF!
and breathe............:lol:
mister c
11-08-09, 09:30 AM
My Ex Sister in Law is 38 years old. She was pregnant at 16, has had 4 kids with the youngest now being 7. She has probably worked about 3 months in her whole life, so has been handed out nice things by the government.
She lives in a 3 bedroom semi detached bungalow in a rather nice area, drives a 53 plate Hyundai Coupe, is the member of a gym, just spent £600 on a 42" telly & has a new washing machine on order.
She told me she was bored staying at home all day, when I said go out & find a job she said that she couldn't because she would have to give the house up & move into a council house. I'd love to be on benefits.
Owenski
11-08-09, 09:43 AM
That would be case an point to mr C then. We (gov/society or what ever) make it far too easy for people to **** us up the poo pipe. We complain and people tells us, dont complain.. do something about it. FO! I am doing something about it, Im working hard enough to save up and leave this **** hole of an Island.
If you CANT work then, please let society help you fund a better life. If you WONT work then the nicest thing I can say to you is Die.
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 12:07 PM
Harsh but fair Leedsmatt. For me it all stems back to what would happen in the wild? Would someone be ready to give a slacker stranger half of their food and the warmth of their fire... I doubt it tbh. Its modern life that is spoiling the race in many many ways.
Miss Alpinestarhero I think it might be the same program we watched... :)
A little off subject but another thing linked in on top of all this that seems to worry me a fair amount is that over population, which imo is MUCH bigger than global warming is completely overlooked! Look at the UK, we cant even produce enough food to look after our selves for Christ's sake... Also more people more global warming. Not that I should worry, eventually we'll all have to have a big **** war over food, morals will have to go out of the window and Europe/America/china will take the rest of the world as living space... Hope im not around for that one! But I digress. :rolleyes:
dizzyblonde
11-08-09, 12:08 PM
yes don't tar single parents in the benefit system with the same brush.
I'm just about to be a single parent again soon, time to ring the tax creds up.
Just for the record I work 12 hour night shifts. But still need to keep a roof. It doesn't matter what age you are if you genuinely need help, wether it be 16 or 32 in my book
Now what realllllly bothers me is 60 year old women who have IVF, selfish to the core, a child needs a parent on this planet whatever the age to giude them through life, no matter how warped an upbringing to other people that may be...not a dead parent because they popped their clogs at the end of their natural lifespan
it is pretty bad, where i live is single mum central and you just see these girls with loads of kids and they've just got no ambition whatsoever, makes me kinda sad
i got chatting to this girl on the net once, she was 3 years younger or so, and basically i stopped speakin to her when i moved out (no internet) and when i got back 2 years later, she had 2 kids, and is no longer with her boyfriend, and shes not even 21 yet, just doesn't seem like a good plan
for 4/5 years she was on benefits, and she HATED every moment of it. yes i know lots of people take advantage, but she was on benefits because she had no other choice
She didn't have to have the kid in the first place.
dizzyblonde
11-08-09, 12:19 PM
well in single parentdom you have two types
Examples.
One: MissA is 25 ish. Four girls under the age of nine. Different fathers. Single on benefits, never works, to lazy to take kids to school etc etc
Two: MissA's sister going the same way..20 years old, two kids, one on the way, different fathers,
Three: MissB, single, one child, works, owns house, needs extra benefits but has dignity, pride etc
I know whos shoes I'd rather be in
Owenski
11-08-09, 12:27 PM
Is it number 1?
lol, only messing. I knew this topic had been touched on before. Thats when I spoke with you Dizzy I remember :)
Your in the catagory that wants to work and wants to do well for themselves and their child, your to catagory that deserve financial aid. Fortunatly that removes you from the catagory that should die :)
peace out.
i was a working single parent for a few years. Got tax credits and school uniform grant but didnt claim school meals as kids wanted packed lunches. Managed to pay my mortgage and council tax (single person discount) Have worked since I was 16 til last year. Im now on benefits, I get housing benefit, council tax benefit, job seekers, and tax credits. With contribution to rent and £120 a month council tax, food for family of 5 there is not a lot left for luxuries. I dont feel bad about taking benefits as I have worked and feel I have paid in. My daughter is 16 and is determined not to have kids til she is much much older. This is due to her having close contact with her wee sister. These young girls that are getting pregnant should spend a week with a young baby and see that it is not all about cute trainers.
Dicky Ticker
11-08-09, 01:11 PM
By all means help people who try to help themselves,a big difference from them that have no intention of working and think the rest of us should support them while they knock out kids.Does anybody ever pay maintenance for these kids? Yes people can make a mistake in life but when it comes down to 3 and 4 kids with different fathers they are playing us for the fools that we are
I will be perfectly honest here and admit to being on Pension credits,but still paying tax as I have done all my full time working life[42years],not just personal tax but company tax along with the employers contributions VAT etc
Although I am taking from the system I like to think that I also paid my fair share in probably a lot more than I will ever be paid back in pensions or health care but it irks me to think that my hard graft is paying for some waster who has every intention of sponging off my back for the rest of their lifes when the truely honest people who often do need help struggle to get some.
eviltwin
11-08-09, 01:16 PM
We work most of our life and get fleased for tax, dont get looked after at all
Please Discuss. :smt023
when I see all those taxes being taken off me and then seeing what I dont get back (pretty much nothing) it kinda gets to you... :(
A slight diversion but look on the flipside. Oiks or unfortunates, however you class them, getting benefits is just one part of a social security system in place to help us all.
Think about what else your taxes fund.
When I had a bike accident an ambulance with two medically trained crew, a helicoptor (I realise this was probably funded by a charitable trust, rather than taxes), policemen and firemen turned up to help me.
I was taken to a hospital where I had access to an x-ray machine, MRI scanner, intensive care unit and an operating theatre. A team of consultants planned where best I would be cared for and then I was cared for for weeks until my bones knitted enough for me to be able to sit up.
I then got given a wheelchair and all equipment and medical help to enable me to learn to walk again.
Not forgetting the access to a psychologist to help with any mental trauma I may have.
I don't mind looking at the deductions part of my payslip so much these days.
so whats the answer?
massive day care centres?
bringing the cost of living down?
imaginary jobs with higher wages?
cheaper house prices?
compulsory contraception for the under 20's?
forcing partners to stay together?
stop immigration?
stoning people in the street for not conforming to society?
i do agree that the working population in the country get a bum deal.
Owenski
11-08-09, 01:27 PM
of all those things you had, how much did it cost you? Or was it your insurance which paid for the ambulance, wheelchair, drugs etc.
dizzyblonde
11-08-09, 01:30 PM
Is it number 1?
lol, only messing. I knew this topic had been touched on before. Thats when I spoke with you Dizzy I remember :)
.
Indeedy hun;)
Life is about choices. I choose to try and make something of life. Sitting on full benefits at home all day, can actually feel really crap, even to those who seem to revel in it. Its a difficult life to lead.
Peace to you too my friend:cool:
Indeedy hun;)
Sitting on full benefits at home all day, can actually feel really crap
Peace to you too my friend:cool:
+1
tiz why i'm sitting typing this....................... board out my skull........
dizzyblonde
11-08-09, 01:35 PM
.Does anybody ever pay maintenance for these kids? .
you wouldn't believe the rigmarole(sp) that some fellas go to to wriggle out of paying maintenance. There are those that do, and also those that are taken for a ride by the CSA, who don't deserve it.
My sons father doesn't pay me a penny......and quite frankly I would refuse anything off him anyway, I don't need his help financially, I'm determined to support myself, always have always will. If he pays maintenance, I feel I have to let him in our lives again. Thats something else both of us can do without:smt070
eviltwin
11-08-09, 01:41 PM
of all those things you had, how much did it cost you? Or was it your insurance which paid for the ambulance, wheelchair, drugs etc.
It cost me nothing at the time. That's the point. The hospital, with its principle of free care at the point of consumption and the other aspects wouldn't be there in the first place if it wasn't for taxes.
Just wanted to illustrate that you can get something back - contrary to Greek's frustrated viewpoint.
His quoted figures are actually quite interesting. Looking at them, if my quick maths is correct, spending on social security benefits has only increased by about 10% in the 8 year span. Healthcare spending rose by 72%.
To throw a cat amongst the pigeons, should Greek be more interested in the government's spending on 'Scotland' rising about 40% under the steer of two Scottish PMs...
Miss Alpinestarhero
11-08-09, 01:55 PM
By all means help people who try to help themselves............it irks me to think that my hard graft is paying for some waster who has every intention of sponging off my back for the rest of their lifes when the truely honest people who often do need help struggle to get some.
A slight diversion but look on the flipside. Oiks or unfortunates, however you class them, getting benefits is just one part of a social security system in place to help us all.
Think about what else your taxes fund
I guess this is the key point. We dont mind paying taxes for those who are honest and genuinely need help. We dont mind paying taxes as an investment in our healthcare system and pension plans etc etc...What TheGr33k is essentially aiming his frusturations at (and correct me if I am wrong) are the dishonest people and the lazy buggers
so whats the answer?
massive day care centres?
bringing the cost of living down?
imaginary jobs with higher wages?
cheaper house prices?
compulsory contraception for the under 20's?
forcing partners to stay together?
stop immigration?
stoning people in the street for not conforming to society?
No idea. I guess society and the attitudes of the younger generation needs a major overhaul
Im just glad I wont be around by the time society disintegrates in 100 odd years time
Owenski
11-08-09, 02:00 PM
ah rite so in teh hospital its all free, no worries.
My sis had a knee op but had to pay for the brace and for the crutches. She earns just too much to get low income support but no where near enough to afford luxuires like crutches. i felt so sorry for her.
eviltwin
11-08-09, 02:18 PM
Sounds like a bum policy in that healthcare trust. Guess that's why the budget has to keep increasing so massively.
Oh well, time to shoot the young parents I guess...or the Scots. ;)
Dicky Ticker
11-08-09, 02:19 PM
DizzyB I agree with your independence theory but these people should pay. As an example my cousin walked out on his wife leaving her with two kids 3&4. She trained as a radiographer,took her degree,BA and continued for her MA all the time supporting herself,be it with help from the family,by working as a carer at nights for housebound people.
She did not want the money from my cousin but I suggested that she should take it and just put it in the bank for the boys till they were 18 which she did. I know£40 per week is no great shakes when bringing up two kids but the money was left so when they were 18 one went to college but had £15,000 to help him through and the other who was working put it as a deposit on a flat.
Neither of them have had any contact with their father but as much as I despise his actions he helped them in some small way without knowing.
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 02:55 PM
A slight diversion but look on the flipside. Oiks or unfortunates, however you class them, getting benefits is just one part of a social security system in place to help us all.
Think about what else your taxes fund.
When I had a bike accident an ambulance with two medically trained crew, a helicoptor (I realise this was probably funded by a charitable trust, rather than taxes), policemen and firemen turned up to help me.
I was taken to a hospital where I had access to an x-ray machine, MRI scanner, intensive care unit and an operating theatre. A team of consultants planned where best I would be cared for and then I was cared for for weeks until my bones knitted enough for me to be able to sit up.
I then got given a wheelchair and all equipment and medical help to enable me to learn to walk again.
Not forgetting the access to a psychologist to help with any mental trauma I may have.
I don't mind looking at the deductions part of my payslip so much these days.
Aye, and in theory my current employer is payed for by us all... but then thats a crappy deal as we arnt even doing this country a service, if anything we are doing it a disservice!
By the by I think the helicopters are all run on public funding through charity...
If im honest, at the moment the only Government funded thing I make use of is the roads, but then I pay a Shed load of tax and fuel duty for that, and the vast majority of that goes in the big pot to get spent on others.
eviltwin
11-08-09, 03:10 PM
If im honest, at the moment the only Government funded thing I make use of is the roads, but then I pay a Shed load of tax and fuel duty for that, and the vast majority of that goes in the big pot to get spent on others.
The roads and the wages! ;)
A model citizen...the state pays you and you dutifully give it all back to us through burning fuel for pleasure on the bike!
A confusing situation that in sci-fi books would lead to you not existing or something...reminds me of working in te*co: I'd get my wages and spend much of them in the shop or petrol station. Free labour for them!
kellyjo
11-08-09, 05:30 PM
My Ex Sister in Law is 38 years old. She was pregnant at 16, has had 4 kids with the youngest now being 7. She has probably worked about 3 months in her whole life, so has been handed out nice things by the government.
She lives in a 3 bedroom semi detached bungalow in a rather nice area, drives a 53 plate Hyundai Coupe, is the member of a gym, just spent £600 on a 42" telly & has a new washing machine on order.
She told me she was bored staying at home all day, when I said go out & find a job she said that she couldn't because she would have to give the house up & move into a council house. I'd love to be on benefits.
Wow! Can you tell me how she's doing that cos im 38 with 3 kids on benefit, worked til the first was born, have to put £200 a month towards the rent on what is quite frankly a s**t house, thus the kids get food and the bare essentials but not a lot else, the only reason i have a car and bike is because my OH lives with his mum and pays for them for me otherwise i'd have neither. I never buy things for myself - clothes, haircuts, makeup, nothing!!
Its pointless me going to the Child Support Agency cos though their dad earns £45k pa he'd have to pay £80 a week for the kids but everything except £20 goes back to the government not towards our kids.
Quite frankly its a horrible situation and one that i never envisaged being in when i decided to marry and start a family.
I'd love a job and would be better off financially but i havent worked for 10 years so my CV looks cr@p - i have no recent employment history, no recent references and no employer would give it the time of day and i probably wouldn't if i were in their shoes. However, i am studying through the open university, hopefully for a teaching degree, so one day i can try and repay society.
So tell me, all those who dont want me claiming benefit (ie your taxes), but how the hell do i get out of this financial mess, all i want to do is provide for my kids and watch them grow into healthy, balanced, sociable adults with a sense of wrong and right, community spirit and a healthy work ethic.
Sorry if this is a bit of a rant but obviously its a subject quite close to my heart at a very difficult time in my life.
-Ralph-
11-08-09, 06:33 PM
Recently watched more car crash TV about a pair of teenagers who wanted to get pregnant to get benefits and a house. Disgusting if you ask me, but when I was 16...
I had terrible judgement and didn't always do things for the right reasons
I couldn't be told by anybody that I was making the wrong decision, they were all old fogey's who didn't understand my situation and just needed to get off by back
Had sex, with some random girl(s), on occasion without protection
I did take responsibility for my actions and would generally climb out of any holes I'd dug by myself, so I do think having a kid just for benefits is disgusting, but I can see how teenagers arrive at those ill advised decisions.
Any teenager who has a kid by accident deserves all the luck and support in the world and at least some help from the state, it won't be easy and they'll need it. We've all run that risk (if you were a munter maybe you didn't but you would have jumped at the opportunity), just 'cos we didn't get caught out we shouldn't judge those who have.
Greek, the thread title of this is a tad misleading. As such, I've not read all the responses. However, on reading the OP, it appears your problem isn't with young people having children, but with young people claiming benefits for having children.
To keep a level of civility in this thread, I'll state now that I was 16years old, and still doing my GSCE's when my eldest son was born. I did however, have a job.
and you think that if if everyone was banned from having kids until they could prove they could afford it tht they'd lower taxes? lol
China have proven quite well that banning people from having children results in one thing. That's the fact that children are still born, without a licence. To avoid the VERY extremely heavy fines the government imposes for this happening, those children are then sold on the black market.
That's right, people sell their own children! What those children grow up into, I don't really think I can comment on this forum given the U-rating.
Does anyone still think that banning people from having children is a good idea?
NB, Greek, I've taken no offence to your OP, just that the above (before I quoted Graciepants) was my initial reaction on seeing the title. :)
Dave20046
11-08-09, 07:22 PM
34%!!! That sounds an unrealistically high proportion of government spending.
I'll be majorly surprised if that is true. Where did you hear that?
As a young father yourself binky - tell us your views?
Simplistically (how I like it) I don't think it has a lot to do with young mums or whatever, it's more to do with 'scum or not scum' the young mums thing is just an unfortunate trend. There'll either be nicking or cheating to get there cash whatever the means. I think the simple solution is to elect a knowledgible,responsible,experienced sole hand them a gun and turn a blind eye.
People raping the benefit/tax payers pot does get really annoy me though..
I see alot of this working for housing associations. Alot of the time you only have to look at the parents to get a good idea what the kids are like or vise versa.
I blame parents for not bringing up their children correctly, they should be setting the example going to work earning a living to provide for their family that they started.
"The reason I havent purchased a house yet is because I can't afford to buy a property or run it, now if there was an option for me to buy a house and then let the tax payer help me pay for it would I buy one :rolleyes:, NO i'd still not purchase it out of principle."
I know it's nothing like having children but its an example of self restraint, you have unprotected sex, you make the choice, no one else. If you can't provide for that child then i'm sorry but you shouldn't have had it. When I start a family i'm going to make sure I have a roof to put over their heads, money to put food on the table and some extra to enjoy and experiance the things life has to offer.
I come from a background where my mother and father split up when I was 2, my mum was on benefits to top up her wages to pays bills, council tax ect. She owned her house and worked f-ing hard to keep it and took very little from the tax payer, only the minimal to survive. At times she had 2 jobs a day and worked 7 days a week. She was working in admin, stacking shelves at tesco and working in the local shop. I used to get home from school even at the age of 9/10 and make my own tea and entertain myself because my mum was out working her @rse off to look after my sister and me. I have the utter most respect for her and love her to bits for it.
Now I work, I make sure I give her a fair amount of my wage to her for board and spoil her rotten at Christmas and B'days. She inspired me to get a job as soon as I left school and work to re-pay her for her years of graft and hard work.
After all those years of 2 jobs/7 days a week, hard graft, she has taught me to be hard working and respect others that do the same, and in turn I respect others property that they have worked hard for. She now has a fantastic job and is slowly re-paying those taxes that at times helped put food on the table.
I feel for those single parents, who for no fault of their own have to bring up and provide for their kids by themselves and have to claim benefits to help.
I do not feel sorry for those who have kids at a young age not knowing how they are going to provide for them and then expect us hard working folk to stump up the cash for them to live.
I'm affraid it's gone to far now though, there are too many people taking from the system now for it to be turned around. Infact the kids that have their children at 16 are not to blame its the example that their parents and their parents before them set for them to follow.
i have no respect for them expecting to be kept at the expense of everyone else who has to work their nut's of to make end's meet.
northwind
11-08-09, 07:54 PM
http://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/fiscal-policy/government-spending.html
There Ya goes. Works out to 24%, sorry my bad.
Only if you include pensions as "benefits", which makes no sense.
thefallenangel
11-08-09, 08:09 PM
I got a good example.
My cousin of 21 got a girl of 16 pregnant. D'oh. He's now got a job thanks to her old man in Orb Works. They have moved in together and are engaged blah blah, anyway she has no idea of life and i don't think they will last and my cousin will become another member of the CSA club. But anyway he still gets some benefits from the government but at least he works.
If people are prepared to work then fair enough but these idiots who get loads of stuff which does happen shouldn't be allowed. But as always the councils keel over and the government won't back no one.
Educate the idiots, "Even if you forget protection, you still got the pill as a backup". People will always be punished for having money which makes the one's without appear to have done nothing for what they got.
yorkie_chris
11-08-09, 08:16 PM
I fail to see how this is the government's fault; society maybe, but not the government.
"Benefits" is a very loose term. The nursing allowance paid to an OAP in need of 24 hour nursing care is a "benefit"
Who chooses who to fund? By funding you promote a certain type of society.
If you give a dog a bone for s***ting in the corner it will s*** in the corner.
Harsh but fair Leedsmatt. For me it all stems back to what would happen in the wild? Would someone be ready to give a slacker stranger half of their food and the warmth of their fire... I doubt it tbh. Its modern life that is spoiling the race in many many ways.
Reverse darwinism. Make sure the stupid, the fat and the lazy can breed. Make it difficult for the intelligent, hardworking genes to continue.
Just wanted to illustrate that you can get something back - contrary to Greek's frustrated viewpoint.
So, if you don't like your tax bill. Park your bike under a car!
I blame parents for not bringing up their children correctly, they should be setting the example going to work earning a living to provide for their family that they started.
I feel for those single parents, who for no fault of their own have to bring up and provide for their kids by themselves and have to claim benefits to help.
Blame the parents? What will that accomplish.
No fault of their own? Erm...
Graciepants
11-08-09, 08:18 PM
She didn't have to have the kid in the first place.
thats a bit of a low blow isnt it?
no she didnt have to have it, as you say, but if she believes that every life is sacred and life begins at conception then she's gonna keep her baby isnt she?
"sponging" off the system and having to be on benefits is better than what she believes is committing murder.
Samurai Penguin
11-08-09, 08:28 PM
Childhood: the period of human life intermediate between the idiocy of infancy and the folly of youth - two removes from the sin of manhood and three from the remorse of age.
Ambrose Bierce (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/ambrosebie104531.html)
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 08:34 PM
Not trying to get into an argument but does your friend eat? If she believes life is sacred then killing plants to eat is a no no, killing animals for meat is also a no no... But I suppose thats somehow different. :(
Too easy to make excuses...
To Baph. I believe that if you cant take care of a child you shouldnt have one and certainly shouldnt expect everyone else to fork out for it. People tend to just take the easy way out, and it seems to be too easy for me. It just so happens that people who are very young are the ones that are in this situation more than someone who waits till their mid 20's.
My ultimate problem is that there is Over population of the world... Tis a real issue. As Miss Alpine said I wouldnt like to be around when the world implodes from this issue. :(
Graciepants
11-08-09, 08:36 PM
Not trying to get into an argument but does your friend eat? If she believes life is sacred then killing plants to eat is a no no, killing animals for meat is also a no no... But I suppose thats somehow different. :(
dont be so pedantic, she had a christian upbringing (and now is a born-again christian and is married to the father) and was taught that life began at conception, and she's kept to that
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 08:42 PM
dont be so pedantic, she had a christian upbringing (and now is a born-again christian and is married to the father) and was taught that life began at conception, and she's kept to that
I was being a little... But people seem to think us humans are special... we are only a little bit smarter than other animals is all. We are just flesh and blood like the rest.
lukemillar
11-08-09, 09:14 PM
and see that it is not all about cute trainers.
What!? *another bubble bursts*
Man, first the Easter Bunny, then Santa Claus. Life's a bitch!
There was no need for the direct comment mate, my thoughts on the subject are very similar to yours. As I said, having read the OP, the title was the only thing a little misleading, so I still replied with what I intended from only reading the title.
My ultimate problem is that there is Over population of the world... Tis a real issue.
You're right, it is a serious issue. But how to go about righting it before the world 'implodes'?
On the one hand, you have our state system, handing out benefits in a misguided manner at best. On the other, you have China (I use them as it's the only place I'm aware of to attempt to control child birth by government policy). Is there even a middle ground? I've no idea what it would be, or how you'd even start thinking about implimenting anything in between.
The Chinese system, for those that don't know, and very simplified for the means of this thread, is that you have to apply for a licence to have a child. You're only granted this licence if you're married (you have to apply for a licence to be allowed to marry too BTW), and you're only granted one licence ever (unless you're a doctor, or some other professional that they have dictated is allowed more children). Should a child be born without a licence, I believe the fine currently stands at the equivalent of £10,000. The average income per head per year in the country is somewhere around £1,500. See my previous post about the black market that it causes.
Yorkie Chris blame will not accomplish anything but it might highlight the source of the problem. To find it's source is the starting block for fixing it, if you can educate a mother & father you give the child a better chance of doing well.
Oh and the "no fault of their own" bit was speaking from my experiance, I know it takes two to tango.
Samurai Penguin
11-08-09, 09:28 PM
Not trying to get into an argument but does your friend eat? If she believes life is sacred then killing plants to eat is a no no, killing animals for meat is also a no no... But I suppose thats somehow different. :(
Ah, bringing out the big guns already, the classic reductio ad abusrdum.
Your thesis seems to be based upon a false premise, this being that there is some perfect state of being (a morally superior state) where only those of a certain age and socio-economic group are allowed to 'have kids'.
The examples you cite do not match my experiences of working in the 'social housing' sector. Therefore I conclude that you are not only employing the RAA above, but compounding this with a Proof by example to support your thesis.
The statistics show (to the best of my knowledge) that the majority of 'single mothers' are not 'teen mums' but rather the product of divorce.
-Ralph-
11-08-09, 09:36 PM
she had a christian upbringing and was taught that life began at conception, and she's kept to that
Abortion - been there, done that (as a teenager!), regretted it despite how inappropriate a baby would have been at that time in my life, and would never do it again or recommend it to anyone.
Later in life (as if by karma 'cos I was party to killing the last one I was given the gift of) my wife and I struggled for two years to have a baby! Now we have one I realise that children are precious as is any human life, and that they are a gift, not a right. Nowt to do with religion BTW, that's just the way I see it now, I can think of nothing better to have happened in my life than my son, he is a gift which I am very lucky to have.
Not saying nobody should have an abortion, just saying they should think very carefully about it, and that I didn't think about it hard enough, or have the life experience to really appreciate what it means. It means you are passing up on the opportunity to create a human being, who most parents will love very much regardless of their circumstances.
We are just flesh and blood like the rest.
OK, never got out the car to pick a piece of rabbit road kill off the road, so next time somebody crashes on a ride-out, lets all just ride straight past.
While we're at it let solve the energy crisis Matrix style, give us something do so with all those 16 year old's babies
Don't be daft Greek :p
Greek - words fail me. You have a good job, even though you dont like it.
Maybe others aren't as fortunate as you, haven't had the education, the animus, the ability to see beyond the end of the street, the chances that you had.
I'm fairly broad minded but personally I find your comments distasteful.
slark01
11-08-09, 10:01 PM
All I have seen in this thread is people arguing without coming up with a good idea or thought on how to resolve a worrying problem for this country. So basically it's been another pointless ( but interesting ) thread.
It's ok to have a pointless thread, but to argue the way people have been doing can be upsetting to even the people who are just reading it. We all have our own beliefs and we should be able to explain these without causing grief for other people.
I have no answers as to how we can prevent Teen pregnancy, but I do believe if society as well as the government work together we might actually stop/reduce the number of pregnancies.
Goodnight folks and take care.
Ste.
The benefit system is there to support us all when we need it. So out of the 60,000,000 of us that its for, why are we surprised when there are the few and I mean few, that scrounge and trick the system.
If you move the bar so high to stop all scroungers, then you wont get the money to the people who need it. For those who think that its a great life with lots of money on benefits then I would ask you to walk a week in the average single mum's shoes on benefit and then make that judgement. When you've seen someone genuinely scared because their bus fair has gone up by just £2 a week and wondering how on earth they are going to buy electric for the following week it brings it all into perspective.
My experince of friends on benefit is one of abject misery and frustration. As soon as you get any job nearly all your benefit stops and unless you have got a good paying job you can find yourself in tremendous debt just by trying to get yourself off benefits. While I applaud those who get themselves out through education or through the help of friends, not everyone is that gifted or has the support network to enable that route out.
So I am for one, extremely grateful for the the benefit system and long may it exist. So before you call for it to be made extremely hard to even get any benefits or for the ammounts to be made extremely miniscule as to make life an absolute misery, firstly, who is punished by this is the kids and secondly, it could be us one day.
eviltwin
11-08-09, 10:09 PM
So, if you don't like your tax bill. Park your bike under a car!
Not sure I understand what you're getting at. I don't have a tax bill. I'm employed so PAYE.
I also did not choose to park my bike under a car. I was not moving. The car was driving on the wrong side of the road and ploughed into me - I went over and bike went under. Lucky really - for me, not the bike.
northwind
11-08-09, 10:10 PM
The most important thing here, is that child benefit is supposed to support the kids. It might be satisfying to cut off some irresponsible parents but it's not the child's fault, and you'd be punishing them too.
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 10:24 PM
Your right ste. I think you wont get too far as there are always people which massively differing opinions. There from what I see are those that think having a child even if you cant look after it without charity is a right, and those that dont. Quite a few people also dont see being young as a problem and that if they want it they should be allowed to.
Who is right? I dont know...
I suppose I have quite right wing views in that I believe you should get what you earn and that no one has a right to someone elses spoils of hard work. I also think its a little too easy for Kids to have children, if the support wasnt there then I think you would see a sharp decline in underage pregnancies. Down to levels when support wasnt so easy.
If that view is distasteful then im sorry.
I suppose to summerise, you dont have a right to anything, you have to earn everything.
Cheers.
P.S. Ed, what exactly is it ive said that is distastful? If its my being pedantic then I only do it because I think there are quite a few blured lines...
Your right ste. I think you wont get too far as there are always people which massively differing opinions. There from what I see are those that think having a child even if you cant look after it without charity is a right, and those that dont. Quite a few people also dont see being young as a problem and that if they want it they should be allowed to.
Who is right? I dont know...
I suppose I have quite right wing views in that I believe you should get what you earn and that no one has a right to someone elses spoils of hard work. I also think its a little too easy for Kids to have children, if the support wasnt there then I think you would see a sharp decline in underage pregnancies. Down to levels when support wasnt so easy.
A decline maybe, but no support for young parents, would result in a very poor life for the kid, and they don't deserve that, wasn't their choice, can't pick you're parents.
If that view is distasteful then im sorry.
I suppose to summerise, you dont have a right to anything, you have to earn everything.
Cheers.
P.S. Ed, what exactly is it ive said that is distastful? If its my being pedantic then I only do it because I think there are quite a few blured lines...
.
ThEGr33k
11-08-09, 10:36 PM
True Sally. Which is why people perhaps shouldnt have the child in the first place. Should they be stopped from being able to have them? Maybe, against someones idea of human rights though, but again thats two fold, as you say, not being able to have a kid could be seen as against the parents human rights, but then having the child might be against the childs right to a chance at a decent life. Its a vicious spiral and the only way out is to stop it at the top.
Im talking about the child that is knowingly birthed without much hope of a decent life like the kind I saw on the Tube and you see all over.
Graciepants
11-08-09, 10:45 PM
Now we have one I realise that children are precious as is any human life, and that they are a gift, not a right. Nowt to do with religion BTW, that's just the way I see it now, I can think of nothing better to have happened in my life than my son, he is a gift which I am very lucky to have.
this is better words than how i put it (although she did have a religious upbringing) as to explain why she went on benefits unstead of having an abortion. and i agree with Ed on this, some comments have been distasteful
Im talking about the child that is knowingly birthed without much hope of a decent life like the kind I saw on the Tube and you see all over.
Knowingly. I think thats the key word.
The only people i believe have sex knowing a child is the possible out come, are those trying to actually have a child. Ie, the mid-late 20's couple etc, not the teenagers.
I don't think teenage pregnancies happen because of the benefit system, just that system supports them if they get pregnant.
yorkie_chris
11-08-09, 11:08 PM
Therefore I conclude that you are not only employing the RAA above, but compounding this with a Proof by example to support your thesis.
What?
Not sure I understand what you're getting at. I don't have a tax bill. I'm employed so PAYE.
I also did not choose to park my bike under a car. I was not moving. The car was driving on the wrong side of the road and ploughed into me - I went over and bike went under. Lucky really - for me, not the bike.
The facts don't matter, what I mean is if you don't like paying for dolescum then you should have some major accident to get your moneys worth, so to speak. It was meant in a lighthearted manner.
Just because some tax goes to worthy causes like the NHS, does not mean you need to be happy about it going to people who don't deserve a bean.
northwind
11-08-09, 11:12 PM
I think Baph's half right there... I know with my ex's little sister, the availability of benefits was one of the major factors in her deciding to keep her kid (totally unplanned, underage pregnancy, with the father unknown). She was planning to have an abortion until she saw the support a friend of hers got with her (totally unplanned, underage) baby. So I think there's definately an element of "I'll have that". But at the same time, I think you're spot on that most kids aren't cynically getting pregnant to jump the council house queue, or whatever- it's more likely happening because of epic quantities of cider, or stupidity, or embarassment, or one of the other various ways young kids get pregnant.
-Ralph-
11-08-09, 11:13 PM
Knowingly. I think thats the key word.
The only people i believe have sex knowing a child is the possible out come, are those trying to actually have a child. Ie, the mid-late 20's couple etc, not the teenagers.
I don't think teenage pregnancies happen because of the benefit system, just that system supports them if they get pregnant.
I don't think you have worded it quite right, but I know what you mean and I agree with it. Most teenagers have had enough sex education to know that a child is the possible outcome, but they don't think it will happen to them (if they think about it at all) before having unprotected sex. This is not surprising, I'm a bloke so I'm going to use the boys perspective - if you've spent the last couple of years of puberty trying to get laid, when the opportunity does finally present itself, not many teenage boys will refuse the opportunity because they don't have a condom. It's just "No condom? Oh **** it, lets get in there!" Those key rings with a condom inside are a great thing for teenagers, many will use it if they have it, but the heat of the moment is pretty hot at that age and proceedings don't tend to stop if they don't.
Im talking about the child that is knowingly birthed without much hope of a decent life like the kind I saw on the Tube and you see all over.
How do you define a decent life?
A child actually has only a few basic needs to be healthy and happy - shelter, warmth, food, water, healthcare, education/routine/guidelines and love. A kid growing up on benefits in the UK has more hope of a decent life than children in some third world countries. So should we say nobody that comes from a third world country should never have been born?
I have a friend in her 30's who had her first child at 16 with no qualifications, was beaten by her father who was in and out of prison, her mother was and still is a useless alcoholic, but she made her own life, studied in the evenings to get an NVQ, and has now worked in her job in a travel agent for over 10 years. She has three lovely well balanced kids and is now managing on her own again after the father of the second two had an affair.
Just because a child is born into bad circumstances, that doesn't mean it has no hope of a decent life if the parent wants to make a decent life for it. If I had had that baby my GF and I aborted, it wouldn't have had the latest playstations, but it would have had a decent life!
james160987
11-08-09, 11:13 PM
from reading some of the posts here, i feel for the single mums that maybe dont get enough, but are trying to do something with there life, or have done, or plan to later
i think i have the same as past peoples views where i think its digusting people have a kid, then rant and rave about why they havent got there free flat yet ( one girl at my work) "im having a bay and the council havent even got me a house!"
knock knock- think yourself lucky to get one,
I also dont like the system where- i know a few people who are unemployed and somehow seem to be ALOT better off than me who is hardworking, that it shouldnt be like, maybe instead of money people should be given vouchers, like rent paid for, heat, electric , bus etc, but not a large amout if dispoable income thats abused,
I also disagree with the system of council houses, my friends m8 dad lives in one, till a few years ago he was earning 40k a year paing 200 a month rent, 3 bed house, and in my line of work i have spoke to numberous high earners still in them, i think that should be changed once you rach a certain income level- the rent should go up or you buy it/move so someone who needs it can have a chance
like in my previous post i rent a house with 3 people, 1/4 wage goes on tax, 1/4 rent, and bills, leave me about 100pw so to spend on food , phone etc
if i lost my job would the goverment help me pay my rent? i would expect not, yet if you are in council housing and lose your job like my friends dad did rent was paid for him till he got one ,
im all for the a system that helps those who needs it, but i think its been over abused, and not enough is done for the hard working person who goes for help and is turned away in favour of the chav family never worked and is bringing up the kids in the same way teaching them to cheat the system,
It's truly a sad situation but one that has been created and shaped by our society. In my view it comes down to education and motivation.
The problem exists because of how people are brought up, there beliefs and values which are passed down by their parents and the society they are living within. It is poor education (not schooling but life education) - same as most problems in UK society.
If anyone wants to get out of this situation then they will need to put themelves into a different part of society. But it requires a greater commitment and motivation to change. If they cant take that step then they are not motivated enough... For me there was nothing more motivating in my life than having kids.
Milky Bar Kid
12-08-09, 01:39 AM
She didn't have to have the kid in the first place.
As usual, someone always comes out with this comment in a discussion like this.
The thread was started by the OP to show his distaste for the persons who are getting themselves pregnant ON PURPOSE so they can get themselves a house and benefits chucked at them left right and centre. He was not, as far as his OP read, having a dig at ALL teenage pregnancies. And by reading GP's comment, (i think I remember correctly, although it was a lot to read when you are a bit out of it on painkillers) her friend is now working, so in theory, she is paying back for anything she claimed.
Having had the misfortune of becoming pregnant and having an abortion, I feel that this comment is completely and utterly unjustified. You make it sound easy. It is not. I will have to live with it for the rest of my life. I think about it each and everyday.
I too share the view that our benefit system is abused but I do not think comments like the one above are helpful in anyway shape or form.
There are many parents in "unfortunate" situations. I use the word unfortunate lightly as it is possibly only unfortunate in other peoples eyes.
Kids are perfectly well educated regarding sex and contraception these days. I believe that we are now seeing a generation of "genetically unemployed" who have learned from their parents how to fiddle the system and claim for everything and unless something is done to combat this, then it will go on for generations to come.
There are many many good people who NEED the system, single parents, people with disabilities etc and they all get tarred with the same brush due to the scroungers who have nothing wrong with them other than lazyitis and perhaps, lack of a brain!
arenalife
12-08-09, 10:12 AM
In China you need a birth permit to have a baby, no job - no permit, and if you have one without - no benefits or education for the child.
I remember a few years ago, young girlies with kids on benefits in the states were forced to have implant. If they refused implant they did not get benefits. good idea I think - but the do gooding human rights people probably dont agree
timwilky
12-08-09, 10:29 AM
I personally have seen the downside of China's birth policy. I have seen the bodies of new born babies dumped in a ravine. We do not need that in this country.
There is a lot wrong with the benefit system in this country. However, having seen people struggling on it. I doubt many would choose babies and benefits over the lifestyle of those who can and do work. I guess the issue is probably the lack of affordable social housing and the priority young kids with babies seem to get for this housing.
As I said in my earlier post my 23 year old daughter had a baby. She still lives in the single bedroom 2nd floor flat she lived in when she was pregnant. Her two year old son has to sleep in the same room as his mum. He has nowhere to play and constantly climbs to look out the windows.
Her housing association have given her points for being in inappropriate housing. But she is not considered a priority as there is a backlog of people lately who appear to be homeless and grab everything available.
Maybe a return to the use of young mothers hostels etc. Would be a disincentive to kids having babies just because they don't like it at home and want their own place
timwilky
12-08-09, 10:31 AM
I remember a few years ago, young girlies with kids on benefits in the states were forced to have implant. If they refused implant they did not get benefits. good idea I think - but the do gooding human rights people probably dont agree
I think that was only in the states. some places used Norplant in the girls arms. Personally I thought it a good idea and should be part of a benefits agreement. We will help you and your child, so long as you agree not to add to the burden with more kids.
ThEGr33k
12-08-09, 12:21 PM
I think that was only in the states. some places used Norplant in the girls arms. Personally I thought it a good idea and should be part of a benefits agreement. We will help you and your child, so long as you agree not to add to the burden with more kids.
Sounds fair to me!
davepreston
12-08-09, 02:19 PM
well here's my solution to the current benfit system now bear in mind the figures used are wrong but you'll get the idea
1/ single mum ,no job, not doing education, base rate = £100
2/ single mum ,no job, doing part time education, = £125
3/ single mum .no job, doing full time education = £150
4/ single mum ,part time job, not doing education = £150
5/ single mum ,part time job, doing part time education = £175
6/ single mum ,full time job, not doing education =£200
to check this every 3 months a check on fullfilling criteria
eg attendace at education certificate and meeting sylibus requirements ( so they actually learn instead of just showing up) to be produced to recieve level
certificate of ongoing full/ part time certificate also produced every 3 months and handed in to recieve level
7/ +25% for each additional child up to the second child so max of 150% of level no bonus's for additional children
does that not sound like a fair system helping those that help themselves
ThEGr33k
12-08-09, 03:38 PM
Good idea Dave. I like that also... :D
so dave a single mum at home gets say £100 and one who is out working gets £200 in theory that is good but what about working mums expenses childcare will be more than £100 a week, plus travelling expenses, clothing allowance.
I remember reading an article years ago about the cost of paying someone to do a mums job - cooking, shopping, laundry, cleaning, childcare - it would cost approx £80k for you to pay someone to do all those jobs. Once kids are at school then yes by all means mums should work but until then why cant we just stay at home and raise our kids.
davepreston
12-08-09, 06:30 PM
well here's my solution to the current benfit system now bear in mind the figures used are wrong but you'll get the idea
:)
i know your figures were just to give an idea but what I was trying to get over is that working mum will need a fair bit of extra money for all her expenses maybe more than twice what the lazy mum would get. I dont know what the answer is but forcing mums out to work doesnt help the kids. Maybe thats why so many kids go off the rails. stand by for hail of "my mum worked and Im not a thug".:-)
-Ralph-
12-08-09, 06:49 PM
so dave a single mum at home gets say £100 and one who is out working gets £200 in theory that is good but what about working mums expenses childcare will be more than £100 a week, plus travelling expenses, clothing allowance.
I remember reading an article years ago about the cost of paying someone to do a mums job - cooking, shopping, laundry, cleaning, childcare - it would cost approx £80k for you to pay someone to do all those jobs. Once kids are at school then yes by all means mums should work but until then why cant we just stay at home and raise our kids.
The £80k is a completely academic exercise, or a job creation programme for whoever did it, but I agree with this post in principal.
I pay £774 per month for full time childcare fees, which is equivalent to a 10-12 grand a year salary after tax. We drew the line at £19K a year and decided that unless my wife's salary was more than that, then the benefit to our child of being raised by his mother, outweighed the financial benefit from her working, so any job offers below this she turned down. We are lucky to be able to make that choice on my salary, but you see the point that the cost of childcare is often prohibitive and is why some single mothers are better off on benefits.
northwind
12-08-09, 06:57 PM
i know your figures were just to give an idea but what I was trying to get over is that working mum will need a fair bit of extra money for all her expenses maybe more than twice what the lazy mum would get. I dont know what the answer is but forcing mums out to work doesnt help the kids. Maybe thats why so many kids go off the rails. stand by for hail of "my mum worked and Im not a thug".:-)
But then, working mum has a seperate income. Thing is, you don't want to penalise mums for working, or for returning to education, but at the same time there's only so much money going round so if someone's earning a wage, maybe they need the money less- their total spending power is still going to be more than the out of work mum on benefits. The flipside of that is to ask, why should people with money be penalised, which is another fair question.
What made me think of this, is that I know my mum and dad got child benefit for me and my brothers, but we weren't poor- not especially well off either but we didn't need the benefits. So, if there's only so much money in the pot, why are we subsidising kids for people who can afford it themselves?
child benefit is for the child but more often the parent will spend it on something unrelated to child. But paying money into an account for child will not help those who really need the money to feed said child. I dont understand why the first child gets more than any subsequent children, maybe you have not to feed the subsequent children as much.
-Ralph-
12-08-09, 07:05 PM
why are we subsidising kids for people who can afford it themselves?
They just feel guilty and have to give back some of my f***in 40% income tax!
They just feel guilty and have to give back some of my f***in 40% income tax!
bet you really appreciate the £13 a week then ;)
davepreston
12-08-09, 07:10 PM
well she gets wages as well and my costs dont get subsabised so why should thiers, clothing allowance are ya having a laugh there travel well everyone pays that
-Ralph-
12-08-09, 07:13 PM
bet you really appreciate the £13 a week then ;)
I do at the moment! Been paying £1500 a month just on mortgage & insurance in Scotland and rent & council tax in Solihull, for the last six months on one salary! Got a tenant in the house in Scotland now though so things should ease off a bit (so long as he pays the bloody rent!)
northwind
12-08-09, 07:25 PM
I dont understand why the first child gets more than any subsequent children, maybe you have not to feed the subsequent children as much.
It's supposed to be for one-off costs I think. Like cots frinstance, sterilising kits. Some stuff you can reuse. Hand me down clothes or kit as well. Think this one's probably fair enough actually, to some extent.
pregnant doesn't not mean a house BTW.
child benefit and maintenance is all meant for the child but ususla goes on something different ( holidays drugs booze new party frock - heard every excuse under the sun)
in this day and age there is really no excuse for under agers to get pregnant but it will always happen - its just more publicised.
as for bored, there's nothin got do - i get that here and in our small area we have over 20 clubs EACH night operating in various genres. al lot of the time is they don't want to do anything - so that excuse is a non starter for me. These kids have never had so many thing to entertains them - so much that they have forgetten how to entertain themselves.
being a single parent is tough and humbling - not ever girl starts out to be like that being any parent i s hard enough . i just wish that more would swallow their pride and go get the money that is due to them - its no longer such a stigma
Is that where the problem is?
(no offence to thos who are single parents i admire all parents - not a job i would want to do )
It's supposed to be for one-off costs I think. Like cots frinstance, sterilising kits. Some stuff you can reuse. Hand me down clothes or kit as well. Think this one's probably fair enough actually, to some extent.
unless of course you are stupid and have a 12 year gap between babies lol
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