IT Careers advice please

[Spiderman]

Oh Mighty Org, so full of techie types, lend me your wisdom.

As some of you may know i'm curretly between jobs and now i'm thinking of re-training and getting out of the retail/sales world all together.

So if i wanted to do an IT course that would get me a shout at a decent IT job what would you guys reccomend?

I have no formal IT qualifications but the last 3 places i have worked i have been the most IT literate person there (which surprised me) and i found that doing the IT stuff was actually really up my street. Some of the IT guys we've had come in to do simple stuff like setting up a network of 6 comps and 1 server semed to know less than i did too.

So, i'm keen to learn and pick things up very quickly. What would you advise me to do from here?

[chasey]

If I were you I would look for a job as first line support tech. From here you can build up your skills and experiences.

I hate working in IT (only been doing it 2years!). Already have my change planned - just need to fill in application form etc etc.

[SoulKiss]

Oh Mighty Org, so full of techie types, lend me your wisdom.

As some of you may know i'm curretly between jobs and now i'm thinking of re-training and getting out of the retail/sales world all together.

So if i wanted to do an IT course that would get me a shout at a decent IT job what would you guys reccomend?

I have no formal IT qualifications but the last 3 places i have worked i have been the most IT literate person there (which surprised me) and i found that doing the IT stuff was actually really up my street. Some of the IT guys we've had come in to do simple stuff like setting up a network of 6 comps and 1 server semed to know less than i did too.

So, i'm keen to learn and pick things up very quickly. What would you advise me to do from here?

Get a Helldesk support role and go from there.

None of the courses you can do that are worthwhile will get you a job without experience.

There was a time when people WERE employed based on qualifications, but with the number of certificate-mill courses/qualifications out there, they are getting wise to it - I DONT have any qualifications and thats not a problem for me, I have 10 years+ experience and a load of projects that I have worked on that I can discuss.

Answering issues like Mr Prestons "no volume" issue is unfortunatly where I think you are going to have to start.

How about bike-sales?

[Daimo]

But be prepared to take **** all day from miserable mofos who's IT kit don't work and want to take it out on someone. I.E You.....

IT qualifications are loosing coolness, its things like ITIL and such, methods of working that seem to do you well. I guess any MS courses will help, but it really depends in which area of IT that you want to go into.

IT sucks ass, its a wage payer, its not very interesting, and on support desk you get so much **** thrown at you. Hopefully your assertivness and anger management skills are good :lol:

[fizzwheel]

I agree with Soulkiss - Get a helpdesk job and then take it from there. You'll get alot of sh*te, but you'll also if you take the right attitude learn a hell of alot.

Pay will be cack to start with, but once you your foot in the door you'll be away, and IMHO theres no substitute for experience over meaningless paper qualifications.

I've got no degree or formal qualifications apart from the BTEC in Computer Studies I did at college. Spidey drop me a PM if you want to have a natter about it some more...

I seem to be in the minority as I really do like my job, its interesting, I never ever get bored and I never face the same set of problems twice. I get the opportunity to make big decisions about the I.T. infrastructure where I work.

[timwilky]

No formal IT qualification, but been doing it for 28 years. I started off writing control systems and data acquisition for test rigs, and used the experience to get a proper IT job writing control and comms systems for real time cash counting systems, and from there writing project management and control for power station build projects.

From there I have been promoted, demoted, moved sideways etc. but spent 25 years with the same employer different names having been a programmer, system manager, IT Manager, project manager

Guess what, my latest job is writing a control system for a test rig. The sort of work I did 30 years ago. different language, different hardware. But still the same job.

Hell It has sent me all over the world, paid for my house, kids education, I hate it. But at times when the job has screwed everyone over, there is nothing nicer than digging everyone out the poo. and you boss getting the credit of course.

would I recommend others doing it. It depends what you want to do. Support is crap, end off. We have ours done out of Kuala Lumpur as the numpties we get for the money we are prepared to pay in this country, they are a dangerous liability.

If you have any niche skills exploit them in IT, there is always a market for decent engineers, Electrical, mechanical, chemical, nuclear who can apply their specialist skills to IT. I have had friends make a fortune out of building a cable routing and management solution. but you need to understand cable routing on large plant, shipbuilding etc. before you can start writing the software.

Money and conditions can be good. I do despair at some of the adds I see and thing they want that for that. THat is the problem with today, everyone thinks they know a bit about IT just because they can use a windoze computer to drive word/excel

[Spiderman]

thanks guys :)

Many years a go i remember a few friends were doing the MCSE course, stying from home mainly. Only one of them got a job in IT and thats because he decided to set up on his own at a young age and lving at home and having vitrually no outgoig meant he could undercut most of the competiton, lol. So he got work. I dont think he ever got rich from it but it was his own thing an he was happy.

I dont mind a job that pays a wage, as some of you see it but prefer Fizz'z attitude of seeing at as always challenging and always new. Like i said above the few small IT things i've done for work have always seemed interesting and i get a kck out of making he damn thing work, lol. After about 1000 goes at it sometimes.

Helpdesks tho, really? Do i have to? Some of the muppets i have spoken to when i've been forced to call helpdesks have known less than i know (and i dont know much as i say) have been less than helpfull. Do i really have to be amongst those brainless zombies to get a foot in the door?
I'm a smart, articulate guy you know.

I also see IT as having more options than the sales ive always done. As the old saing goes "You're only as good as your last sale" and i'm getting very sick of the constant effort it takes to maintain that.

Fizz i may well drop you a PM later dude, meanwhile if anyone has any other advice please pop it in here...or if you're a nice person who can offer me a helpdesk job with nice-ish people then thats even better ;)

[Spiderman]

Is learning to write progammes a difficult or lenghty thing Tim? You posted while i was typing the above reply you see.

[Luckypants]

Spidey - have you thought of IT sales? If you wanted a more technical job you could move into pre-sales technical support from sales. Pre-Sales support is specialised both technically and on the inter-personal skills front, since you are still trying to sell the product while the customer is evaluating it. It may still be sales initially, but may provide a route to IT technical role if that is what you want.

[timwilky]

Coding is easy, you need a methodical approach to problem analysis and logical thought processes.

I did look some years ago at high paying london jobs. but failed at the first hurdle as I did not understand how finance, trading etc worked. Back to what I was saying earlier, It is the ability to deploy skill or knowledge to an IT application that makes/sells a person.

I would suggest if you are keen that you see what your local college can offer on a part time night or weekend course. Doesn't cost a lot and will give you enough to get a junior programming role. Far more interesting than the hell desk, and enable you to develop analysis and design skills

[fizzwheel]

Helpdesks tho, really? Do i have to?

Seriously its one of the most rewarding jobs I've ever done, but its also the most frustrating... We're not all morons. I met alot of very good, capable, skilled and intensley likeable people. Most of which I'm still friends with 20 years later.

I've only met a few wally's and I helped most of them out of the door... Its very competative at times and often you'll be flying by the seat of your pants especially when somethings broken and you dont know how to fix it and the hottie in HR cant print out her reports ;)

IMHO helpdesk isnt about IT skills, its more about people skills, how you talk to people and making them understand complicated stuff without confusing the hell out of them.

If you can show some comon sense, work under pressure and use your intiative and you're a quick learner you wont be on the helpdesk for very long trust me.

[Nutter]

I work in IT too, and there's some good tips here. I think the best routes in without formal quals or specific IT experience are as people have said - helpdesk or IT sales.

[SoulKiss]

thanks guys :)

Many years a go i remember a few friends were doing the MCSE course, stying from home mainly. Only one of them got a job in IT and thats because he decided to set up on his own at a young age and lving at home and having vitrually no outgoig meant he could undercut most of the competiton, lol. So he got work. I dont think he ever got rich from it but it was his own thing an he was happy.

I dont mind a job that pays a wage, as some of you see it but prefer Fizz'z attitude of seeing at as always challenging and always new. Like i said above the few small IT things i've done for work have always seemed interesting and i get a kck out of making he damn thing work, lol. After about 1000 goes at it sometimes.

Helpdesks tho, really? Do i have to? Some of the muppets i have spoken to when i've been forced to call helpdesks have known less than i know (and i dont know much as i say) have been less than helpfull. Do i really have to be amongst those brainless zombies to get a foot in the door?
I'm a smart, articulate guy you know.

I also see IT as having more options than the sales ive always done. As the old saing goes "You're only as good as your last sale" and i'm getting very sick of the constant effort it takes to maintain that.

Fizz i may well drop you a PM later dude, meanwhile if anyone has any other advice please pop it in here...or if you're a nice person who can offer me a helpdesk job with nice-ish people then thats even better ;)

Of course you can always chat to me on Friday night too.

[Bluewolf]

.

[Daimo]

Coding is easy, you need a methodical approach to problem analysis and logical thought processes.



Coding is only good if you understand and know the code your writing off by heart. If you have something to explain in a way YOU understand the code, and have done a few years learning it all, yeah, sure, well easy........

I've been trying to learn xhtml and css for 3 years on and off by myself and have got absolutly no-where because I have trouble learning by myself, and loose interest because I cannot grasp it. Whats the point in "knowing" code if you don't understand the principles? Or even the other way round, you understand the principles, but can't get your head around the amount of code?

Fizz, you ENJOY'D your helpdesk job? My word I hated it, and still do hate having to answer the phone every time it rings, although this role has more server work, but im no techhy.

Tbh, i seemed to have drifted from company to company, never happy. Never being one for "playing the office game", and even though my morals and ethics are very high, and my work rate has always been at the top of the charts, i've never got anywhere.

I've found that if you have your own mind, and are prepared to stand up for what you believe is right, you are a troublemaker. No matter how good a worker you are, how much work you go through, how many "so called" friends and work colleague you get on with, theres always some ass kissing tw4t who does bugger all work, yet has their head so far up a managers ass they'll get every promotion under the sun.

Maybe its me? My attitude? Prehapes, but then not being an ass kisser, working hard all the time, ensuring you speak to your clients in a proffessional helpful assertive manner, doing overtime for nothing, coming into work whilst londons being bus bombed, etc, is bad work ethics, so don't follow my rules.

Just sit back, kiss the managers ass, u'll go far.........


My god I hate working in IT :( I really don't think I should be in it.

[fizzwheel]

Fizz, you ENJOY'D your helpdesk job? My word I hated it, and still do hate having to answer the phone every time it rings, although this role has more server work, but im no techhy.

No not all the time. But then mine was strictly desk bound. If I picked up the phone to somebody who had a problem and I couldnt fix it over the phone I had enough freedom with in the job roll to get up from my desk and go and find them and talk to them face to face / sit at their PC and sort it out that way which did break up the monotany of it and I got to meet alot of people.

Like I said it can be frustrating, but I also found it rewarding and it was nice when people appreciated my efforts and said thank you.

Its also a great way to meet single young ladies especially when one of your core customer bases is a 350 seat call centre ;)

I've found that if you have your own mind, and are prepared to stand up for what you believe is right, you are a troublemaker. No matter how good a worker you are.

My role is different now, I'm paid to look at things and then come up with solutions to problems. Like I said to my boss ages ago. "You dont pay my wages to not listen to what I have to say" Its my job to speak up and roll up my sleves when the sh*te hits the fan, and then I also have enough clout now to make sure it doesnt happen again, if that means being honest and speaking up and telling the truth that is what I do.

I tend to say well if we dont do x,y,z then a, b or c is going to happen, if I get ignored its great because then I get to say "I told you so", its happened enough times where I've been ignored and stuff has gone wrong that now I dont get ignored anymore...

[Spiderman]

Thanks guys this is all very helpfull. Been looking at IT sales as a way in but they all seem to want you to know the IT products in question to get in, ie Print Colour Managment IT Sales....you must have prior print colour knowledge :roll: I sold property for 15yrs so its mainly property focused, tho for the last 5yrs i designed and sold bathrooms and kitchens and i learnt all that from scratch on the job.

But none of these things seem to matter, lol.

The other issue (not to me but employers) si that i'm comming into this much older than everyone else. I'm not an old git by any means, i'm only 37 (i know i look 28 ;) ) but some of you seem to have worked on helpdesks etc 20yrs ago (did we have computers that neede helpdesks back then? I thought we all used abacuses, lol) so i need an emplyer who sees my knowledge base as an asset, not my age as a hinderance. Or is it so not like that for IT helpdesks?

[krhall]

I love doing helpdesk work, it's not really my job but I often spend time in helpdesk working. The majority of it is quite thankless but can be rewarding when you solve an issue or help someone who is really upset etc.

Helpdesk used to be a better job years ago, when it was more of a face to face role, nowdays the majority of helpdesk tasks can be completed remotely.

IT salaries have taken a bit of a hit, but if you are trying to get into it and are prepared to start on the bottom rung with a salary to match, you may find something.

Speak to Viney too, he runs printrooms, which can be quite an interesting role. I believe the company he works for are often looking for pre-sales people too.

There are a couple of IT salespeople on here too, who may be able to point you in the right direction.

Don't go down the MCSE route, it is a waste of time. If I look at a CV with that on it, it holds no more weight than a GCSE in History or PE, with regard to a day to day Helpdesk role.

If you really must get a course, go down the Cisco route or possibly learn HP Procurve stuff.

There are a few linux guru's on here, their work is proper hardcore and if you can get your head round that there is always going to be work around. I have tried to get some of them to do some work for me but they don't want to.

[Daimo]

No not all the time. But then mine was strictly desk bound. If I picked up the phone to somebody who had a problem and I couldnt fix it over the phone I had enough freedom with in the job roll to get up from my desk and go and find them and talk to them face to face / sit at their PC and sort it out that way which did break up the monotany of it and I got to meet alot of people.

Like I said it can be frustrating, but I also found it rewarding and it was nice when people appreciated my efforts and said thank you.

Its also a great way to meet single young ladies especially when one of your core customer bases is a 350 seat call centre ;)



My role is different now, I'm paid to look at things and then come up with solutions to problems. Like I said to my boss ages ago. "You dont pay my wages to not listen to what I have to say" Its my job to speak up and roll up my sleves when the sh*te hits the fan, and then I also have enough clout now to make sure it doesnt happen again, if that means being honest and speaking up and telling the truth that is what I do.

I tend to say well if we dont do x,y,z then a, b or c is going to happen, if I get ignored its great because then I get to say "I told you so", its happened enough times where I've been ignored and stuff has gone wrong that now I dont get ignored anymore...


I have been both desk bound, and customer facing bound. This role requires both as we have 8 sites, so your remoting on whilst speaking. I get to drive out to the sites every so often which really breaks up the days sometimes.

I've just had bad luck. At my old place if your face didn't fit.... I'd been top of the call resolutions for about 5 months in a row. We had issues with assets physically going missing, and THE best solution at the time was barcoding. I really tried to push this, but the managers (who wasn't keen on me) said no no no.... So they hire an asset manager, and guess what they suggested.... 1 year later, its rolled out. I've got quite a few of these instances though, hence why I left after being shafted for 4 years.

Other roles just mean I didn't get on with the people. Some people were great, made my day good fun, but those that didn't hit me hard, and just as im finding with my so called "family company", its all take take take and never give anything back to the employee's. Its disgracefull it really is.

I try to promote a healthy IT image. Everyone hates IT, always moaning its not working etc. We rolled out (of which even though I tried and tried to get into, i've been left out, im IT and i've had absolutly no training on the new software, which is good, as i don't have to support it). Anyway, everyones moaning, I promote it, "it'll be hard work for a little while, but it will make your life much easier, its just change, and change requires a little input and the attitude of its going to work, not its going to be rubbish" etc... Doesn't do me any favours bar looks of "your f*king stupid or mad"....


Spider, don't "listen" to me, but take it on board as well. If you go to a larger company, your a number in IT, not an employee. Your also an expense, and expendable. I've had directors who love IT, and those who hate IT, and even though its one of the most important factors in a business these days, the staff that run it, no matter how long the service, are still suseptable to outsourcing, and being given the chop when budgets kick in.

If i've learnt something in 10 years, its look after yourself, cos no other f*cker will help you out, even if you go to a big company director with a 2 page report on what your good at, what your bad at, what you enjoy and dislike, how you want to learn but need some help and guidence.... It gets you no-where.... (this particular director even had the cheek to have a huge go at me becuase I didn't attend a meeting i'd be "pushing" for, conterary to the fact i'd been knocked off my motorcycle and couldn't even walk, and then I STILL came to work hobbling, even though i'd been signed off (i didn't know your not allowed to come in), because I could still use my hands, and in my upbringing, that meant I could work, so I went in......).

Other advice, go small, get into a smaller company, more hands on, more training, more social, friendlier, your an employee, not a number... Just don't come here :(

Or Simmons and Simmons
Or Goldman Sachs
Or Taylor Wessing
Or Teach Stern Selby
Or Sinclair Roach and Temperly, oh, actually, thats folded..... the only one I actually enjoyed I got made redundent from :(


Actually, just stay away from Law Firms and Banks. Great totty though, that made the days go by sometimes :lol:

[SoulKiss]

I love doing helpdesk work, it's not really my job but I often spend time in helpdesk working. The majority of it is quite thankless but can be rewarding when you solve an issue or help someone who is really upset etc.

Helpdesk used to be a better job years ago, when it was more of a face to face role, nowdays the majority of helpdesk tasks can be completed remotely.

IT salaries have taken a bit of a hit, but if you are trying to get into it and are prepared to start on the bottom rung with a salary to match, you may find something.

Speak to Viney too, he runs printrooms, which can be quite an interesting role. I believe the company he works for are often looking for pre-sales people too.

There are a couple of IT salespeople on here too, who may be able to point you in the right direction.

Don't go down the MCSE route, it is a waste of time. If I look at a CV with that on it, it holds no more weight than a GCSE in History or PE, with regard to a day to day Helpdesk role.

If you really must get a course, go down the Cisco route or possibly learn HP Procurve stuff.

There are a few linux guru's on here, their work is proper hardcore and if you can get your head round that there is always going to be work around. I have tried to get some of them to do some work for me but they don't want to.

I too like the some of the Helldesk stuff - I used to be the last port of call - when an issue had been going on and on, with no resolution happening it would get dumped on me and I'd fix it - more because of people skills than technical in many cases, so your sales experience IS good experience, you have to sell the fact that YOU are going to get the persons problem resolved, then get them to buy into the concept that this works best if they will assist you, then finally check that they are happy with the end result, I once took a VERY annoyed customer (the issue had been ongoing for about 2 months before it got to me) and sorted it all out in a day or so, a lot of that being "wasted" on convincing him that the best course of action was for me to treat this like a brand new case and look at it from 1st principles, even though it would mean him re-doing things he had already been asked to do.

If you can talk the customer through the fix and make them feel like they are learning something (and if its something that stops them calling the helldesk again so much the better) then they end up going away feeling really good about what they have learned.

The key skill is to never have Teflon Coated Slopey Shoulders, never try and dodge the rubbish calls (I have seen this SOOOO many times) and always be positive - your Boss will probably have been on the Helldesk at some point and KNOWS its a rubbish job, but with the right attitude you can get out of there petty quick, when something comes up that needs escalating to a more technical team, try and follow the problem, go to the guys that fix it and find out how - you can sell this as being able to reduce their workload next time that issue comes up.

Cisco qualifications are now going the way of MCSE's especially the lower end ones - with the availability of simulators etc there are actuall CCNA qualified people who have bever touched a piece of proper Cisco kit.

As for Linux, well you REALLY need to have an interest in it, its not something that you can just learn, you have to live it - and the reason I never took Kev up on the offer is that as I already have a Job, I cannot support anything that that I did for him in a real-time 24/7 situation.

In saying that, installing it on an old PC and learning how it works to the same extent as how you know Windows works, would not be a bad thing these days.

I actually think that Spidey COULD make a good Helldesk guy, good enough to get out of there and into something like pre-sales easily.

[fizzwheel]

If you really must get a course, go down the Cisco route or possibly learn HP Procurve stuff.

I'd add Vmware into that list to, but if you dont know much about server architecture you'll be stumbling around in the dark.

Mike_AVFC works in Presales now I think, the company I work for are a customer of his. Definately worth talking to if you want to go down that route.

[L3nny]

I've worked on a helpdesk and it's okay. A lot of people think the people working on helpdesks don't know what they are talking about but it's usually the user who just doesn't listen or already thinks they know best that causes the most problems.

In the jobs I have done 90% of the problems were between the keyboard and the chair

All helpdesks are completeley different, some I have worked on you have a set script to read out some are more of a customer service job and some you just wite down everything the user says and pass it on to 2nd line without even trying to solve it.

A job where you are supporting a set group of users rather than the general public will be better because you don't have to deal with the idiots who have nothing better to do than ring up the helpdesk everytime something happens they aren't sure about.

In my experience I have found that qualifications are just as important as experience. In order to get a job you will have to deal with the dreaded employment agency and they seem to get paid more commission the more supposedly qualified they think you are and wont even pass your CV onto the employer unless you have specific the skills and qualifications they think you need.

[Baph]

My route was from pubs, then sales, tech-sales, brief spell in catering then helpdesk. From there i've done a multitude of IT jobs, but i'm back on a helpdesk now as thats what i enjoy (contrary to many above).
There's two types of help desk. There's the ones that take calls from home users trying to fix their printers, or there's the ones that talk to business users about very specific software.
I fit the latter category, in the past being involved with logistics systems, but now gambling.
The work is easy, there's a good crowd in the office, and my bills are paid.
I'd advise the helpdesk route too, but there's a lot of options to explore within a helpdesk environment.
If you don't like the helpdesk, show initiative, and you'll soon be moved to where you want to be, given the right employer.

[krhall]

Mike_AVFC works in Presales now I think, the company I work for are a customer of his. Definately worth talking to if you want to go down that route.

Another customer eh! His company should be paying the org a cut!

[wyrdness]

Zig, I've been working in IT for many years, so if you want a chat about it, then I'll be at Pizza next Thursday.

However, it might be a bit difficult to break into at the moment due to there being a lot of IT people looking for jobs.

Why not look at your strengths and see what else you can do?

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience of sales, so why not use that to your advantage? I'd guess from chatting to you that you're a pretty good salesman. So have you thought about becoming a freelance sales consultant or tutor. Sell yourself to companies as someone who can improve their sales by teaching their sales staff how to sell better. I'm sure that you'd be great standing up in front of a room full of people and imparting knowledge. People do tend to listen when you speak (if only because they can't get a work in edgeways :D ). It might even be worth seeing if you can get a bit of work doing that whilst you're between jobs, just to dip a toe in the water.

It could certainly save you several years of training to do something completely new and having to climb the ladder from the bottom.

[muffles]

Ah, chap. Just the other day when you posted on that thread about agencies, I thought to myself "wonder if he works in IT?" as we have started recruiting again. Then you said sales so I forgot all about that thought...but now this :)

I am tempted to come to pizza/Soho just to give you some input from my experience of things! What an excuse for me eh :lol:

FWIW I will say now (and some of these things have been said) that "IT" covers SO much it really needs narrowing down. You have the support role, as mentioned, the developer role, the infrastructure role. There's probably more, too.
All of these break down (or need to be broken down) as they are very wide ranging as well.
Myself, I work in the developer role. This is what coding comes under, of course. But within this role you can break it down into 2 main aspects - infrastructure (different to the infrastructure role I mentioned above), and pure development. I work in pure development, which can be again broken down into areas which have fairly different 'styles' for want of a better word. Areas such as the database, the server side processes, and the front end UI.

As you can see there's a lot to discuss and I think maybe it is better done in person!

The last point I would make is that the company you work for will make a difference to how IT is used/viewed. I work for a company where the IT is very much a strategic area, it contributes to the running of the business and is very much essential for profit-making. Some companies treat (perhaps reasonably) their IT as a tactical/ancillary area, they will use a PC but not try to do anything development wise to contribute to their profit-making.

Oh and to give you some idea of my experience it's 5 yrs computing education (A-levels & degree) plus 7 years IT (2 for a defence company and 5 for a major investment bank). So that's where I'm coming from with my comments.

[krhall]

As for Linux, well you REALLY need to have an interest in it, its not something that you can just learn, you have to live it - and the reason I never took Kev up on the offer is that as I already have a Job, I cannot support anything that that I did for him in a real-time 24/7 situation.

I wasn't having a pop SK, I was just pointing out that Linux skills are a very useful thing to have as there are always people that need help with it. I also agree that you really need to live and breathe it to be any good at it.

...and talking of Linux - Baph is back!!! How's it going mate, oh and sorry for the derail.

In my years of IT it has gone from being a sort of luxury, to something the business cannot do without, but also something that is expected to work. The result is you only ever get noticed when things go wrong.

[Spiderman]

Ah all you kind people taking the time to give me this advice, its really touching and yet another reason why i love this place so much :grouphug:

If a couple of you guys are gonna make it to Pizza Night next week then i'll deffo be there and i'll even shut up (for a change) and listen (believe it or not, i can actually do that really well) to all te advice you have to give me.

As you've all said there is so much to choose from in the IT world that i need to have an idea or direction i guess. Sadly i dont think i know enough about the industry as a whole to be able to narrow it down much.

Pre-sales sounds like my thing having such vast sales experience behind me but i always assumed that entails cold calling clients that may be interested in the softwares your company can sell them. Is that right?
Or is it more a case of they contact your firm for a solution to a problem and a pre-sales guy calls them back and takes it from there?

Any more advice or even links to suitable places to look for helpdesk work is appreciated guys, just so i gte an idea of what the job titiles are i should look out for, the salaries on offer and the firms etc.

[muffles]

I have no idea about sales I'm afraid, but you mention help desk - presumably you want to figure out what it is you want to do first? ;)

I don't have any sites off the top of my head but you should be able to find some pretty easily, then just pick some options and browse :)

I might be able to make it to pizza night but actually Soho is more likely this Friday. The wife is away so won't care if I'm not back home straight away! :D Are you at Soho tomorrow?

[fizzwheel]

Or is it more a case of they contact your firm for a solution to a problem and a pre-sales guy calls them back and takes it from there?

In my experience thats what I look for from somebody doing pre sales. Its normally my experience that somebody doing pre sales will have a serious techy background in the thing that I am looking to buy so that I get advice on how to configure / set it up etc etc, but thats only from my Infrastructure / Server / datacentre perspective.

Oh the other thing is, if you are going into helpdesk / IT Support kinda of area, you'll be working with some people who do the job because they are interested in computing and can be heavy duty nerds. If you are going into it because you think "This looks OK I can make good money here" then IMHO I'd find another career path... Oh and dont think its a 9 - 5 job either. I'm going into tomorrow night to take our systems offline to do some maintenance work, I'll do a full day and then go back in and start at 8pm and if it all goes OK, I wont leave till Midnight, if it goes badly, well, I wont be going home till its fixed. I've pulled 24 sometimes 36hr shifts sometimes when the deep brown stuff has interfaced with the fan...

[Spiderman]

I'll be at soho for sure mate :) probably not much before 7.30ish tho.

Fizz...if i know nothing about the product in depth then i guess i get no-where right? I know in sales its sometimes the more product knowledge you have the easier you sell the product. But its back to that old chestnut of how do i get the product knowledge without being in the firm that sells the product.

None of what you guys ae saying is putting me off btw, i knw o generalised about the IT helpdesk satt that i've called being rubbish in the past but this really always has been first line support for Dell or Compaq or someone tbh. I've found that when i get to the next line of support they are far easier to deal with and far more willing to listen to what you have to say as opposed to tell you " i know you probably did this already but can you go to control panel...etc etc.

I like the idea of going to peoples companies and actullay installing things from the comps to the wiring to the software etc. I dont think i'd enjoy sitting and taking calls for 8-10hrs a day in an office...but if thats what it takes to get in them i'm also the kind of guy to throw myself into things with gusto and be the best i can be.

[muffles]

I'll see what I can do about getting there myself then ;)

[fizzwheel]

Fizz...if i know nothing about the product in depth then i guess i get no-where right?

Yep, in fact I embarressed a guy doing pre sales once as I knew more about his product than he did, needless to say his company didnt get our business...

For what I do, if your doing pre sales you need to be sh*te hot with it. The last big pre sales job we did, involved ripping out our phone system for a 350 seat call centre and a Thousand seat head office and installing a new one. You cant faff about with that kinda of stuff if you dont know what you're doing.

I like the idea of going to peoples companies and actullay installing things from the comps to the wiring to the software etc.

I used to do just that. I enjoyed it, but I didnt like the amount of driving I had to do as some days I spent more time on the road / driving than I did with my customers. Also we had a bad salesman who would tell the customer any old cr*p to get the order and then it was my job to try and make what he had sold them do what they wanted. I quite often got sworn at and verbally abused by frustrated end users who had spent alot of money and not got what they wanted. Remember earlier when I said about IT being about people skills and not just techie knowledge...

I got fedup with it in the end and left, I like working in a big company where my user base are not customers who have paid money, its much less stressful. As I can walk away from sh*te or I can simply defer them off to my manager who then deals with cr*p that I'm not paid to take...

Mind you nothing motivates more than having a red faced angry person shouting at you because their system doesnt work and threating to sue the ass off your company and then turning it around and making them a happy customer. I did used to get a buzz out of that.


I dont think i'd enjoy sitting and taking calls for 8-10hrs a day in an office...but if thats what it takes to get in them i'm also the kind of guy to throw myself into things with gusto and be the best i can be.

It depends where you work, you might spend time on the phone and then the next day you'll be out and about doing the face to face stuff. If I'm looking at CV's I do look for people who have real world experience rather than paper quali's. If I can see they've done helpdesk time and then worked their way up through the hieracy into whatever current role they've got into I tend to pick those people over anybody else.

Your trouble is going to be getting in and getting the experience especially at the moment with so many techies being out of work. The advice given earlier about getting into a small company and finding out what you do or dont like doing is a great one, Thats the sort of place I started at when I left college...

[Baph]

I dont think i'd enjoy sitting and taking calls for 8-10hrs a day in an office...but if thats what it takes to get in them i'm also the kind of guy to throw myself into things with gusto and be the best i can be.

Maybe 10% of my work is taking calls, and even then, at least 80% of that is talking to our field engineers, not customers. I can sit in the office all day, sometimes the phone won't ring once!
That's due to the fact i do application support, not desktop. Most of my work is done trying to work out whats gone wrong, why, and how to stop it happening again.
Sometimes that comes with a sharp learning curve, in a previous job they told me that they didn't expect me to start being productive for 6months! But in this job, if you can play roulette, you're good.
Kev, i'll drop you a pm in a bit to avoid further derail. :)

[-Ralph-]

Forget courses advertised on the telly, I wouldn't employ anybody on the strength of one of those. Someone said MCSE is useless, I disagree, there is a lot of guys with MCSE's so no it doesn't gain you a huge advantage, but if you don't have one, it then leaves you as the only guy who doesn't ie: at a disadvantage. Employers do look for them as certifications are the only way you can tell that the skills listed on the CV have been tested and are not just BS. Don't do it now though, get an IT job first. Fizz is right that nowadays it's best to back it up with a VMware VCP when you get the opportunity. Cisco certifications, etc, take you down a different more specialised career path and you can always do them later on once you've found out and decided what floats your boat, or you may decide not to progress technically at all and instead go into operational/service delivery management, or service management consultancy or and go for ITIL certification (more about IT process and procedure than technical).

The usual technical career path is:

1st line Helpdesk -> Remote 2nd Line Support -> 2nd Line Support -> 3rd Line and Technical Consultancy then your usually either into Pre-Sales or IT Service/Operational Management depending on best fit for your personality and skills.

1st line means at first point of contact with the customer, the guy who talks to you on the phone and can do basic stuff like reset your password or fix common problems, remote 2nd line is the guy who connects to your computer moves the mouse around and fixes stuff, 2nd line the guy who turns up at your desk, 3rd line if it's more specialist networks, business applications or a problem 2nd line can't figure out.

I'm a Pre-Sales Technical Architect. I did Business Information Technology at Uni then went straight into 2nd Line Support, then 3rd Line, then Service Management Consultancy so less technical, then back to Technical Consultancy (Project implementation & pre-sales 50% of each), and now I'm dedicated Pre-Sales designing and selling hosted data centre infrastructure solutions, I'm on a base salary then a targeted bonus, I report into a board director in a £230 million business and I've been IT full time for about 12 years now.

When I was doing Service Management Consultancy I was setting up IT helpdesks for both 1st line and remote 2nd line, and doing transitions and service improvement. The worst part of this job was having to take the role of the Helpdesk Operations Manager for a few months whilst the helpdesk settled in, but it does mean I know a little bit about this world, even though I never actually had to do much of it myself at the sharp end of the telephone.

Helpdesk analysts get paid **** and you know what they say about paying peanuts - you get monkeys! For this reason anyone with a bit of gumption about them stood out and got noticed and their careers accelerated. 2nd line desks were always short staffed due to technical guys getting stolen for projects, and to back-fill more technical teams, so the guys with the best brains got taken off 1st line and put "temporarily" on 2nd line. A fast steep learning curve, but if you managed it and were well motivated, it would end up becoming a permanent position and it wouldn't be long before you were the one getting stolen from that team for projects and better more interesting things.

So getting a Helpdesk Analysts position is definitely the way into IT if you have no formal IT qualifications such as a degree. Stay motivated positive and eager with a can-do attitude in an environment where everyone else is ****ed off, demotivated and half asleep and within a year you'll have Operations Managers and Consultants saying what a good guy you are and you'll start to move up. From there you will be able to get your employer to fund your training and you'll have a better idea if you want to go into servers/virtualisation and the Microsoft/VMware certification route, or if you want to get into Networks and go down the Cisco route.

Good luck and I know you've got plenty offers already, but you can PM if you want to.

[Iansv II]

I'm doing a dual 1st/2nd line role, While i'm on a helpdesk most of the time I also do alot of desk visits and remote control of regional offices...

It can be enjoyable sometimes, unfortunately where I am there isn't much opportunity to learn new things as its a small team and people don't like giving up their knowledge as they've all been there for donkeys years and want to protect their little corner

The whole IT dept got outsourced to Atos Origin last december though with a 1 year job garauntee, this runs out in december, i'm looking at other roles internally but suffering as i've not specialised and have basically been doing a bit of everything which doesn't seem to be what people are looking for, certainly within large organisations.

So while i'd recommend starting with a helpdesk role like others have said it's useful to try and specialize or find a niche where you can.

Happy Hunting

[Iansv II]

Never being one for "playing the office game", and even though my morals and ethics are very high, and my work rate has always been at the top of the charts, i've never got anywhere.

I've found that if you have your own mind, and are prepared to stand up for what you believe is right, you are a troublemaker. No matter how good a worker you are, how much work you go through, how many "so called" friends and work colleague you get on with, theres always some ass kissing tw4t who does bugger all work, yet has their head so far up a managers ass they'll get every promotion under the sun.



Thats exactly how I feel most of the time too, The management have a couple of favourites hence anything interesting comes up guess to gets to work on it, unfortunately the management got outsourced with the rest of us so I didn't get the fresh start I hoped for

[muffles]

Tbh, i seemed to have drifted from company to company, never happy. Never being one for "playing the office game", and even though my morals and ethics are very high, and my work rate has always been at the top of the charts, i've never got anywhere.

I've found that if you have your own mind, and are prepared to stand up for what you believe is right, you are a troublemaker. No matter how good a worker you are, how much work you go through, how many "so called" friends and work colleague you get on with, theres always some ass kissing tw4t who does bugger all work, yet has their head so far up a managers ass they'll get every promotion under the sun.

Thats exactly how I feel most of the time too, The management have a couple of favourites hence anything interesting comes up guess to gets to work on it, unfortunately the management got outsourced with the rest of us so I didn't get the fresh start I hoped for

Sounds silly but this sort of thing does confuse me, cos I've never had this sort of issue (not to any real degree). While managers will have friends it's never been something that ever had the possibility to impact promotions or pay reviews or work.
So there are companies out there that will base this on merit and not things like who they get on with the best.
I'm not sure quite how to put it but just based on what I have heard (from friends, etc) this kind of attitude is more prevalent in companies where the employees aren't expected to work that...hard, I guess.
I guess with the type of company I'm in (investment bank) you can imagine the culture is very work-oriented, etc. It's completely different to the culture at my previous (defence company) role but even there, I didn't really see any favouritism, etc.

[timwilky]

In a previous company, I did a tour of all our single customer (BT) sites that used our systems. A sort of health check, writing at the coal face little noddy programmes to fix particular data issues they may have etc.

however, on two sites our salesman was with me. He lied through his teeth about what the next release would do and did not take kindly to being told. What I did learn from this exercise was first he was a rubbish salesman. If our next release went in on his promises then we would not get any more orders. What he should have been doing and was failing to do was to feed back to the developers what the customer actually wanted, instead of leaving us to second guess what the next features should be.

[Daimo]

Your trouble is going to be getting in and getting the experience especially at the moment with so many techies being out of work. The advice given earlier about getting into a small company and finding out what you do or dont like doing is a great one, Thats the sort of place I started at when I left college...

Ironically EVERY person i've ever spoken to in IT who's a manager or something, got into their job at a smaller company, hands on everything, learned everything, became IT manager for years, then moved on.

I went the wrong way round, big companies, good money... Doh :lol:

[-Ralph-]

Ironically EVERY person i've ever spoken to in IT who's a manager or something, got into their job at a smaller company, hands on everything, learned everything, became IT manager for years, then moved on.

I went the wrong way round, big companies, good money... Doh :lol:

Learning your trade technically in a small company is good, because you get your hands on stuff that in a bigger organisation wouldn't be part of your role, because your role and that of your team would be defined with clear boundaries as to what you do support and what you don't. In a small company it's all your problem.

I would recommend that once your established with some experience you move to a larger company to get out of the dead mans shoes scenario, where you can only move up when somebody above you retires or leaves.

Spiderman may actually be better starting off in a bigger company with a large helpdesk, such as an IT service provider, where there is plenty of opportunity to progress into second line, then move to a smaller company once he has some second line experience so that he gets more exposure to widen his technical skill, before moving back to a bigger company again if he finds himself waiting for dead mans shoes.

[-Ralph-]

Sounds silly but this sort of thing does confuse me, cos I've never had this sort of issue (not to any real degree)

There is a bit of favouritism goes on, but as I said in my earlier post, those who get favoured must have come to their managers attention for some reason in the first place by standing out from the crowd in a good way.

Having to travel for projects is great for career development as you end up in hotels bars and pubs with those consultants, managers, directors and form relationships that way (you get into the boys club!), next time they need somebody for a job they'll think of you first.

If you work in IT support you wouldn't believe how much time your managers spend talking about you, to consultants, pre-sales, salesmen, even customers, so always keep your motivation high and your outlook positive and have a can do attitude.

If you find a long running technical problem that's causing your managers to get some butt-kicking from above or from customers, and no-one wants to get involved 'cos they know it's a pain in the **** and no-one knows how to fix it, make it your mission to get it fixed and get googling, usually once somebody does this and puts the effort in a fix can be found, and the managers will love you for it.

If your managers think your a technical wizard, your positive, you have good people skills, customers think highly of you, and having you around makes their lives easier then you'll get promoted.

I know exactly which guys I pick upon from the support teams & consultancy teams when I need something done. Is that favouritism? Probably. Fair on the others? Probably not. But it's up to the others to make their mark and ensure that next time I need a more challenging job done it's them I'll choose.

[Daimo]

See i've missed ALL this in 8 years.

The managers never cared, well they did care, but tbh when someone who worked (not managed) a creach, then moved into IT training, then somehow ended up as your Helpdesk manager (ironically very close friends with IT operations manager, who was good friends with the IT Director, who used to be someones PA!!!!!!!!), you start to question their methods. Best manager I had was a contractor lady from Canada, she was awesome, but otherwise, we're back to the "how far does my head squeeze up your bottom" rule again.

Just sounds like i've made bad choices in companies to work for so far :lol: My other half says this. I need "normal" people like me, morals, into anything with engines, and not completly obsessed by Health and Safety and image over practicality and common sense :lol:



The going to a big company for training, then moving to a small company is the best idea. Just choose your job and people wisely. Depends how well you can get on with muppets and idiots. Me, notso well :lol: