View Full Version : Time for a new lid - Advice?
Well it is time for a new lid for me and I have found one on ebay for £59.99, the lid in question is a Nitro n1700-VF. This particular lid comes with a 5 star sharp rating. I already own a 4 star Nitro lid which is a great fit for me, but has bounced down the road (slowly) with my nut inside, so needs outing.
I know there is a lot of label snobbery with lids, but is it well founded and how good is the Nitro?
Cheers,
Kev
speedplay
10-09-09, 12:21 PM
I was carried away from this :-http://forums.sv650.org/picture.php?albumid=222&pictureid=1807
40mph head on into a crash barrier after a police car didnt see me.
I was wearing the nitro you are looking at.
I suffered smashed ribs from the screen and a smashed thyroid cartilage as well as other nasties.
The lid did protect my head and brains etc as it was really mashed when I took it off BUT...
I think it was the chin guard that smashed my thyroid cartilage and crushed my windpipe as it tipped forward.
The helmet did fit properly but the visor slid over the barrier and the egde of the armco dug into the top of the chin guard, causing the pivot point.
I was lucky i didnt snap my neck.
This all being said, I doubt that anyother lid would have done any differently.
I always try the lid on and check for any potential nasties now (once bitten etc...)
The lid did its job, I'm still here to tell the tale. :)
All lids must be off a minimum standard so if its uk spec you like it it fits well and is the right price go for it. Yes some will say you must get this that or the other it is a personal choice. Obviously nitro are ok as riding schools use them and you have already said yours saved your bonce as you went down.
Dangerous Dave
10-09-09, 12:29 PM
This particular lid comes with a 5 star sharp rating. I already own a 4 star Nitro lid
FFS!
The SHARP tests were proven to be inaccurate, the bleedin' testers openly admitted the did 't know how to translate their data into results. This has been covered in the press and on this forum countless times!
The fact remains, SHARP have still not produced any amended results. Why, because they don't know what to do with the data they gathered.
Find a helmet that fits your head best, this is the only advice everyone will agree on.
It has a 5 star sharp rating, which very few lids manage including some of the more expensive Arai and Shoei ones, so I am sure it is fine. Just thought I would see if anything came up here.
I have seen the threads DD, but any test is better than no test for some guidance right?
If it fits and is comfortable is one thing, but if there is a bit of guidance too then that has got to be worth something, otherwise surely they'd remove the site completely. Otherwise incorrect finding could be the difference between life and death.
fastdruid
10-09-09, 12:41 PM
Cheaper brands make their helmets to pass the crash tests, more expensive brands have programs feeding back from actual crashed helmets to see what happens in the real world. This is of course a sweeping generalisation as there will be brands at every stage inbetween. :-)
That plus comfort and quality can be far higher, not so much a problem if you ride ~1000miles a year as the lid will be "too old" before it wears out but if you ride any distance or for any period of time you'll be grateful.
I'm just glad I've never had to test one (my wife OTOH has written off three lids!)
Druid
Dangerous Dave
10-09-09, 12:45 PM
a bit of guidance too then that has got to be worth something
Any helmet with side pods would fail to get 5*, this is because they impact tested the side pods and not the actual shell underneath that protects your head.
If they couldn't get this simple bit right would you honestly trust the other results fully?
Im with Dangerous Dave the Sharp test is a load of s**t.
The Nitro will meet the required standards and that is about it, if you went for a more expensive lid it would have the required standards and more protection.
Always remember as well whats your head worth? £59.99 or £299.99?
Go and try on some other lids, my local Hein Gericke got hold of an Shoei XR1000 and battered it, with great big tools, threw it along the floor, you name it they tried f**k it up and it was still as strong as it came out of the factory with no major breaks (just no longer safe for the road)
If notro fits, then buy one. If they dont, then buy a different brand. As long as its ACU approved, or whatever the UK std is, and its fits properly, it shouldnt matter what it says on the lid. I would go and try the lid that you are wanting on. I made this mistake buying my Shoei. I used to have an XR800 which was loveley and fitted briliantly. However, the XR1000 the i bought to replace it didnt. It was too big and wasnt the same fit. I have now had 2 Arai's, my current being an AstroJ.
Its slightly misleading that a £500 lid will portect your head 5 times better than a £100 lid. At the end of the day, youa re hoping that you will never get to try it out. My cheap n chearful impluse buy Tamagochi lid (Or whatever its called) done a good job of saving my head in a low speed highside a few years ago.
Always remember as well whats your head worth? £59.99 or £299.99?
I won't say what my RST lid cost then...:(
rictus01
10-09-09, 01:53 PM
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=138639
Cheers Mark.
My cheap n chearful impluse buy Tamagochi lid (Or whatever its called) done a good job of saving my head in a low speed highside a few years ago.
That's debateable!
That's debateable!***t ;)
keith_d
11-09-09, 01:00 PM
I'm a newbie so my advice ain't worth s**t, but here's what I did.
I walked past the open face helmets in the shop and started somewhere around the £100 mark. I kept trying my way up the rack until I found one that fitted me really well. I checked it had the CE tag sewn into the strap as well as a TUV sticker then bought it.
Im with Dangerous Dave the Sharp test is a load of s**t.
...
Always remember as well whats your head worth? £59.99 or £299.99?
...
Go and try on some other lids, my local Hein Gericke got hold of an Shoei XR1000 and battered it, with great big tools, threw it along the floor, you name it they tried f**k it up and it was still as strong as it came out of the factory with no major breaks (just no longer safe for the road)
And you know the test is not good because you have a phd in engineering (motorcycle helmet design), or are you just repeating information you have been told, or perhaps you are believing manufacturers biased opinions?
Helmet testing is a very complex subject, and the Sharp test is there because some people felt the other tests were not good enough. The argument about whether they are or aren't is for people who know exactly what they are talking about.
The price of the helmet is virtually nothing to do with the safety of it. Its all to do with brand name, (not so) useless features, shiny paint and how much the manufacturer thinks you are going to pay for these.
I am curious what you mean by major breaks. If the outer skin doesn't show any marks, then that is a helmet _never_ to use.
What would happen if your kid/dog/other half/goldfish used it in a game/knocked it off the table/gave it a licking and it got a good whack with something then put it back without telling you. You wouldn't be able to tell and would be riding around with a dangerous helmet.
As for structural damage, what counts is the force transmitted though to your skull, not whether the helmet is still helmet shaped afterwards. Crumple zones on cars?
And you know the test is not good because you have a phd in engineering (motorcycle helmet design), or are you just repeating information you have been told, or perhaps you are believing manufacturers biased opinions?
Helmet testing is a very complex subject, and the Sharp test is there because some people felt the other tests were not good enough. The argument about whether they are or aren't is for people who know exactly what they are talking about.
FFS!
The SHARP tests were proven to be inaccurate, the bleedin' testers openly admitted the did 't know how to translate their data into results. This has been covered in the press and on this forum countless times!
The fact remains, SHARP have still not produced any amended results. Why, because they don't know what to do with the data they gathered.
This is a well known fact that the tests have been proved and as said inaccurate and the fact that again as said the sharp people openly admitted this fact, which means i dont have to have a "phd in engineering" as it has come straight from the horse mouth.
The price of the helmet is virtually nothing to do with the safety of it. Its all to do with brand name, (not so) useless features, shiny paint and how much the manufacturer thinks you are going to pay for these.
Ok so every one will go and buy them £15 crash helmets on ebay then?
I am curious what you mean by major breaks. If the outer skin doesn't show any marks, then that is a helmet _never_ to use.
What would happen if your kid/dog/other half/goldfish used it in a game/knocked it off the table/gave it a licking and it got a good whack with something then put it back without telling you. You wouldn't be able to tell and would be riding around with a dangerous helmet.
As for structural damage, what counts is the force transmitted though to your skull, not whether the helmet is still helmet shaped afterwards. Crumple zones on cars?
It didnt collapes (sp) crumple etc no matter how many time and how hard it was hit which i would hope no crash helmet would
xXBADGERXx
11-09-09, 01:34 PM
I wear Arai lids because I have an Arai shaped head . I don`t go for label snobbery or anything like that , I went for the fact that the lid fitted my head , does a 1000 miles a MONTH , is fairly quiet and comfortable . I have tried others and KBC came close as did a Suomy a few years back , but always found myself drifting back to Arai . Took the Badgeress for a new lid a month ago and I actually made her try the first lid on that I knew would fit her nicely . Then we tried everything else on including £400 lids , she went back to the first one and it was a KBC VR1x . It was in the sale for £80 down from £170 . So some canny shopping was involved and I managed to find a brand new one online for £40 , now that was a bargain beyond belief and she is more than happy with the lid .
PS . The other reason I like Arai is that I have seen Racers on the Isle of Man crash in them and they survived head trauma and that speaks more volumes to me than any test that is dreamed up .
xXBADGERXx
11-09-09, 01:37 PM
The most damage done to helmets in an impact is to the lining of absorbent material INSIDE the lid when it has a weight (Like a head) inside it and it stops suddenly and the weight carries on moving inside . This is what saves your bacon in the Majority of accidents . You can puncture the shell as much as you like but those types of accidents where piercing of the shell happens , are very few and far between .
I wear Arai lids because I have an Arai shaped head
This is also another factor in choosing a lid as well, i had a vemar and a agv (both being quite budget lids at the time) and in the end they didnt fit as well, i then had my mind set on a shoei untill i found it didnt fit me, i tried on some more lids untill i put on an arai which fitted the best, but even if i found a budget £50 lid which fitted just as well i would still choose the arai even tho it is another 250 quid extra.
rictus01
11-09-09, 01:40 PM
I am curious what you mean by major breaks. If the outer skin doesn't show any marks, then that is a helmet _never_ to use.
What would happen if your kid/dog/other half/goldfish used it in a game/knocked it off the table/gave it a licking and it got a good whack with something then put it back without telling you. You wouldn't be able to tell and would be riding around with a dangerous helmet.
As for structural damage, what counts is the force transmitted though to your skull, not whether the helmet is still helmet shaped afterwards. Crumple zones on cars?
Or of course send it back for testing, and get a detailed report on the lining thickness and structural strength, Oh wait only one manufacturer does that...
Cheers Mark.
This is a well known fact that the tests have been proved and as said inaccurate and the fact that again as said the sharp people openly admitted this fact, which means i dont have to have a "phd in engineering" as it has come straight from the horse mouth.
Ok so every one will go and buy them £15 crash helmets on ebay then?
It didnt collapes (sp) crumple etc no matter how many time and how hard it was hit which i would hope no crash helmet would
And yet the Sharp test was introduced because the (then) current tests weren't good enough. I'm not saying they are better/perfect, but if a helmet scores low on the sharp tests I'm not buying it. A flip face helmet that stayed locked down on 80% of impacts? No thanks, but it has past all the other safety standards.
If it has passed all the safety standards, and it fits correctly why not?
Ex-friend of a friend had half his crash helmet ripped off (together with his head) hitting a broken kerb with a sharp edge. A friend got a half brick stuck in his helmet (fell off a truck he was overtaking) without penetrating (fell off the bike though). Story from IAM club of a highways maintenance engineer going into the crash barrier of a motorway in a police model flip face helmet, it unlocked and tore his face off.
So much depends on the impact, what you're hitting etc.
rictus01
11-09-09, 01:54 PM
buy a galvanised bucket, it'll pass all the SHARP tests with flying colours....:smt043
yorkie_chris
11-09-09, 02:37 PM
Go and try on some other lids, my local Hein Gericke got hold of an Shoei XR1000 and battered it, with great big tools, threw it along the floor, you name it they tried f**k it up and it was still as strong as it came out of the factory with no major breaks (just no longer safe for the road)
OK so make a helmet out of solid steel, by that "test" it will be the best ever, but it will kill you. Because it won't absorb any energy.
AmigaNut
11-09-09, 05:39 PM
I have a Schuberth, very impressed. But I had to buy the breath guard seperate @£15.
Had an Arai RX7 Corsair 7 months previous but TOO NOISY.
xXBADGERXx
11-09-09, 05:41 PM
All lids are noisy to the extent where you SHOULD really be wearing ear plugs . I am guilty of not wearing them to work and back , but put them in for longer journeys . I had a weeks holiday a month ago and didn`t touch the bike in that time , I was nearly deafened on a journey to work from wind noise alone , from that moment I have worn them to work as well and have realised that your hearing gets hammered on a bike no matter what you may think about the quietness of your lid .
Dangerous Dave
11-09-09, 05:51 PM
And you know the test is not good because you have a phd in engineering (motorcycle helmet design), or are you just repeating information you have been told, or perhaps you are believing manufacturers biased opinions?
The argument about whether they are or aren't is for people who know exactly what they are talking about.
Which the SHARP people are not, how the hell can you then go by their ratings??? If you bothered to read my first post, which is a publicised fact following the SHARP press announcement, you yourself may stand a chance of knowing what your talking about.
And yet the Sharp test was introduced because the (then) current tests weren't good enough. I'm not saying they are better/perfect, but if a helmet scores low on the sharp tests I'm not buying it. A flip face helmet that stayed locked down on 80% of impacts? No thanks, but it has past all the other safety standards.
If it has passed all the safety standards, and it fits correctly why not?
The reason the SHARP test ratings are inaccurate is because the tests were incorrectly done and the results were mis-interpreted.
I have a SHOEI shaped head, I always have done.
I'm due up for a new one, I'll probably go for the new XR1100.
Personally, I don't think you can put a value on your life and so always buy the best gear you can afford and be comfortable in.
That said, a couple of my mates bought HJC helmets from M+P, very cheap, as they were on offer....I think they were £39.99 at the time, must say, nicely made, ACU Gold accredited etc etc.....but personally, its a "named" brand everytime.
It's all down to personal choice, comfort and cost at the end of the day.
Also, NO amount of testing can prove a helmets protection qualities in a crash. All crashes are different and therefore they cannot be tested for every eventuality. Alot of damage to the brain comes from the inertia it has when your head stops suddenly, (like all internal organs), causing it to collide internally with the skull. So if this can be softened in an impact then a helmet has done a good job.
lukemillar
11-09-09, 10:28 PM
FFS!
The SHARP tests were proven to be inaccurate, the bleedin' testers openly admitted the did 't know how to translate their data into results. This has been covered in the press and on this forum countless times!
.
Can you point me to a link? It has been debated on the forum, but I haven't seen a single news story on it! I'm not banging the SHARP tests drum or anything - I'm just genuinely curious. Whenever I google it, all I ever find is other bike forums claiming the tests have been proven to be inaacurate as well! Be nice to get some genuine info (and I don't mean MCN either!)
Dangerous Dave
12-09-09, 10:00 AM
Can you point me to a link?
Oddly enough it has been recently removed from this page (http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/news/), the fact is where ever you ask there is someone who will repeat the same publicly announced facts.
merlin427
12-09-09, 10:45 AM
Oddly enough it has been recently removed from this page (http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/news/), the fact is where ever you ask there is someone who will repeat the same publicly announced facts.
Just because something is 'published' does not mean it is a fact, the Sun, Mirror and so on 'publish' things every day which I know are not facts. The only place I've seen anything published regarding the SHARP tests is MCN and I put no more trust in that organ than the 'Currant Bun'. Also bear in mind that any manufacturers which have hitherto enjoyed a good reputation (possibly self generated) which do not come out well in the tests do have an axe to grind in rubbishing them. I'd appreciate any information on this (I like to multi-source my facts) as some time soon I'll be buying a new helmet.
Dangerous Dave
12-09-09, 03:25 PM
Just because something is 'published' does not mean it is a fact, the Sun, Mirror and so on 'publish' things every day which I know are not facts.
I know that, if you care to re-read my last post it tells you the published statement was on the SHARP website. If this was their official press release, published on their official website, then why do people continue to argue this point every time someone starts a thread about "which helmet to buy"? Also note it is not only on this forum, this debate appears on virtually all motorcycle forums and featured in all (not just the morons at MCN) the motorcycle press when it was announced.
SHARP officials (not helmet manufacturers) announced the test results were incorrect, inadequately preformed tests and the data received was misinterpreted. For starters any helmet with a side pod would fail the impact test, because the impact was rated on the side pods and not the helmet.
I have an Arai and I couldn't care less if it didn't even get a * rating; it fits me perfectly, it is well made, the after care is second to none, and I have crash tested them twice.
FFS we have the same blo*dy repeated arguments on this forum, either people are not happy with what they hear and start sulking or the armchair experts suddenly appear.
Sometimes I wonder if some people should bother protecting their head!
merlin427
12-09-09, 03:44 PM
I know that, if you care to re-read my last post it tells you the published statement was on the SHARP website. If this was their official press release, published on their official website, then why do people continue to argue this point every time someone starts a thread about "which helmet to buy"? Also note it is not only on this forum, this debate appears on virtually all motorcycle forums and featured in all (not just the morons at MCN) the motorcycle press when it was announced.
SHARP officials (not helmet manufacturers) announced the test results were incorrect, inadequately preformed tests and the data received was misinterpreted. For starters any helmet with a side pod would fail the impact test, because the impact was rated on the side pods and not the helmet.
I have an Arai and I couldn't care less if it didn't even get a * rating; it fits me perfectly, it is well made, the after care is second to none, and I have crash tested them twice.
FFS we have the same blo*dy repeated arguments on this forum, either people are not happy with what they hear and start sulking or the armchair experts suddenly appear.
Sometimes I wonder if some people should bother protecting their head!
Whoa, calm down and real your neck in a bit cowboy.
I have an interest in buying a helmet (as most users of this site will at some point) and I'm looking for some meaningful information, from the content our your posts referring to 'published facts' I thought you had some but there are no links here.
All I have seen is the moronic knee jerks from MCN, I only read one motorcycling publication with any regularity and this has not (to my knowledge) has not published the details you mention so this came as a startling surprise to me. Although forum chatter may be useful, constant reference to publications and facts without actually producing these references gives no more credence to an opinion which may simply be reproducing the diatribe from NCM. For something as important as a helmet I really need something more solid than that.
Specialone
12-09-09, 03:55 PM
My two penneth for whats its worth.
I have a Lazer 'vertigo', first helmet, no crashes yet, cost £80 ish i think its a decent helmet for the money.
As per advice from my instructor, i did look for the gold stars or whatever they are because, apart from comfort thats all i had to go on.
I'm gradually replacing / adding to my kit slowly and a lid is one of them, i have tried on loads and the one i like the most so far is the arai viper gt, it fits me well and the quality of the materials inside seem very good.
The softness of the linings etc feel the best imo.
The fact that a lot of motorsport users seem to favour arai, there has gotta be something in that also.
Arai are pricey, but worth it imo and as soon as i have spare change, im having one.
Having said that, can they offer greater impact protection etc than cheaper lids, doubt it but who knows?
Phil
merlin427
12-09-09, 08:08 PM
My two penneth for whats its worth.
I have a Lazer 'vertigo', first helmet, no crashes yet, cost £80 ish i think its a decent helmet for the money.
As per advice from my instructor, i did look for the gold stars or whatever they are because, apart from comfort thats all i had to go on.
I'm gradually replacing / adding to my kit slowly and a lid is one of them, i have tried on loads and the one i like the most so far is the arai viper gt, it fits me well and the quality of the materials inside seem very good.
The softness of the linings etc feel the best imo.
The fact that a lot of motorsport users seem to favour arai, there has gotta be something in that also.
Arai are pricey, but worth it imo and as soon as i have spare change, im having one.
Having said that, can they offer greater impact protection etc than cheaper lids, doubt it but who knows?
Phil
I guess that is pretty much the story for many people - It's a 'household name' and many racers use them. I'm sure Arai are a very good helmet but are they really worth so many times more than a cheaper brand? Bear in mind in many ways the life of a motorcycle racers helmet is less demanding than yours. Bear in mind the top brands put a great deal of money into fostering this image, perhaps that is why they have to charge so much more than the cheaper brands.
I guess I'm the same, I have a Shoei for no other reason than it is a 'household name' which I guess I should be able to rely on, I liked the design and it was a 'reasonable' price. Without evidence to the contrary I'll probably do the same again but I'll not claim Shoei, Arai or whoever to be 'best' regardless of whatever tests may prove simply that they are most suitable for my needs based on the evidence I am able to put together.
Personally I'd steer clear of too cheap helmets in the same way I'd steer clear of 'too cheap' anthing. Mind you is I was riding a scooter at similar speeds to what I ride a pushbike maybe I'd accept anything which was legal.
yorkie_chris
13-09-09, 10:15 AM
Though the SHARP tests are flawed, they do have this (http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/helmet-guidance/best-fit/) which appears to be excellent advice.
Dangerous Dave
13-09-09, 11:25 AM
Whoa, calm down and real your neck in a bit cowboy.
Don't call me a cowboy, there are plenty of them on this forum who already annoy me.
I have an interest in buying a helmet (as most users of this site will at some point) and I'm looking for some meaningful information, from the content our your posts referring to 'published facts' I thought you had some but there are no links here.
Then I recommend you contact SHARP and ask them to reproduce their press statement, I can't be bothered to go over this crap every time, and links have been posted in the past. Whilst you at it you could also ask them why they continue to show the incorrect results.
Though the SHARP tests are flawed, they do have this (http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/helmet-guidance/best-fit/) which appears to be excellent advice.
This is the only genuine advice you can offer to anyone looking at buying a helmet.
xXBADGERXx
13-09-09, 11:25 AM
Though the SHARP tests are flawed, they do have this (http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/helmet-guidance/best-fit/) which appears to be excellent advice.
Yep that`s the same advice I gave the Badgeress when we looked for lids for her , the guy in the shop was like "Man , you know more about this stuff than I do" which made me embarrassed for him as I personally wouldn`t have announced that so loudly in a showroom on such an important bit of kit . The Badgeress was more like "That`s pretty can I have that one ?" ................... patience and time and good advice got her a lid in the end and she was so much happier for having this lid compared to her old one .
And I`m with Dangerous Dave on this to be perfectly honest , even a £30 lid is going to meet safety standards , the test was flawed as they tested side pods , which some of the most expensive helmets do have and they failed them on that for puncture/piercing tests . I have not worried one jot about whether the SHARP test has found anything of REAL worry , as stated many times , racers crash in exactly the same lids as us , there are no differences between their lids and ours in the way they are made , maybe some customisation of the removeable lining , but that`s about it . No I know racers crash in a "Sterile" environment of the racetrack , but if it`s good enough for the Isle of Man , then it`s good enough for me ;) ...... and they ride faster and in a far more dangerous and hazard rich environment than the vast majority of the 2 wheeled public will ever do .
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