View Full Version : Helping a colleague?
454697819
14-10-09, 07:25 AM
A good friend / colleague of mine is being formally disciplined for her time off following suffering from chronic migraine.
Now ironically the company does not have a formal disciplinary procedure so are making up as they go along in line with a new HR consultant.
She has barley had time to compile her case ans they warned her on Friday that the formal hearing was today. She has been to her doctor and got a letter stating that she is suffering fro stress related chronic migraine.
Personally this stinks, i could have shot down in flames their first letter to her asking her to "mend her ways" as it was full of unsupported allegations and now this... No evidence other than the time off has been provided which has been justified by a doctor.
We have no unions and this place is very weird some times... but aside all that what they are doing is imho wrong both on a fairness level and in law.
She has worked for this place 2 years.
The bottom line is she hasn't had time to organise a representative for her in the meeting, id be quite happy to do it, but will I be making a path out the door for myself?
fizzwheel
14-10-09, 07:38 AM
but will I be making a path out the door for myself?
Possibly, with no HR Procedure in place for formal discplinary they could pretty much as you say make it up as they go along.
Is the a written HR Policy in place that covers time off and sickness, if not are they making this up as they go along as well.
I'd be very careful. If you went to the meeting to just be an observer and didnt say anything I'd be happy doing that, but anything more I'm not sure I would want to risk it.
At the end of the day how on earth are they going to argue against a Dr's letter...
Alpinestarhero
14-10-09, 07:49 AM
It might be worth your while getting clued up on the formal disciplinary procedures of several other companies. This way, you can be certain of what is and what isn't common practice, as well as things likley to be company-specific.
It dosn't sound very fair to be honest.
454697819
14-10-09, 07:57 AM
Possibly, with no HR Procedure in place for formal discplinary they could pretty much as you say make it up as they go along.
Is the a written HR Policy in place that covers time off and sickness, if not are they making this up as they go along as well.
I'd be very careful. If you went to the meeting to just be an observer and didnt say anything I'd be happy doing that, but anything more I'm not sure I would want to risk it.
At the end of the day how on earth are they going to argue against a Dr's letter...
She has just let me read the letter inviting her to this meeting, it states that she is being disciplined under the formal disciplinary procedure (we don't have one) so massive error No 1.
I have explained that I would be happy to go in as an independent whiteness but I would have to be silent.
She has written a good letter back and hopefully it will poop on their arguments but I fear regardless of the evidence they will plow on.
sigh... poor lass I fear this is a kangaroo court.
Drew Carey
14-10-09, 07:57 AM
If you can hold fire for a little while (whilst she logs on at work etc) Lily said she will respond as much as she can. She currently manages the HR, Payroll etc at her company and has dealt with many sickness cases etc.
It is fairly hard to sack people nowadays as you can always do them for unfair dismissal. I thought that if a company had over a certain number of employees they had to have a disciplinary procedure or sequence!?!?
It's not often the opinion of a doctor can be negated by a HR monkey!
It's a tricky one for you. Never really a good idea to fall out with the gods above!
fizzwheel
14-10-09, 08:12 AM
No formal discplinary procedure meh what a bunch of muppets...
sigh... poor lass I fear this is a kangaroo court.
Sounds like it. Whats this person like, i.e how is she regarded by her employee's is she well liked around the office, or is she viewed as a difficult employee or a trouble maker ?
I reckon theres more to this than meets the eye or somebody somewhere has decided you need to cut back on staff and is using the illness thing as an excuse to shove her out the door with paying her redundancy etc etc
Mr Speirs
14-10-09, 08:14 AM
Just because the company doesn't have a disciplinary procedure doesn't mean they can do what they like. There are basic conditions which need to be adhered to to protect companies from subsequent unfair dismissal lawsuits.
The basic rules are that first you receive a verbal warning, a written warning and then final written warning in which you are formally asked to leave. (Unless it is gross misconduct in which they can skip directly to the final warning)
To win an unfair dismissal case the company would have had to prove habitual leaves of absences due to ill health and that there had been discussions to warn the colleague and steps put in place to actually help the colleague i.e. less workload, light duties, different role etc.
TBH unless you are fully aware of disciplinary procedures you may not be the best person to argue her case with your bosses. At best you would become a witness if there was case brought against the company for unfair dismissal in court.
Hiya I used to be a Store Manager for Boots the Chemist so maybe I could help you a little. Firstly they have to have a disciplinary procedure in place for anyone to be "pulled up" on it. Secondly they are have to be shown to have warned her about her conduct before any formal proceedings can take place. Gross misconduct would warrant pulling her straight in for formal proceedings and that's things like theft, abuse, etc. Anything else which is a misdemeanor must be proved that the Employer has gone above and beyond to warn the employee for their conduct.
What all that means is any absence in the past MUST have a return to work interview. At that interview it is established that the employee is fit to return to work and told about the sickness policy. Once the absence becomes excessive or prolonged they are given a verbal warning. After the verbal warning there is a written warning and then if another absence is made they can be brought up for a formal meeting.
As you can see disciplinary over absence is a very extensive process so no way can an employee pull anyone straight into a formal meeting. They will have a case of harassment/unfair dismissal quicker than you can say Tribunal.
Any more help, let me know!
454697819
14-10-09, 08:27 AM
thanks guys
The point being here they have started to just get the finger out and give us all procedures and contracts, they are now dicaplining her against new procedures for old illnesses.
it doesnt help that they promoted her to a new role with no job description so on the odd occasion she has let things slip but no more so than anyone else who doesnt know what thier job is.
She is generally a good lass been here 2.8 yrs longer than me by a fair way, the older girls dont like her beucase when she is off sick she they have to help out, her boss is sadly the MD's PA and she is a witch to put it bluntly.
Boils my blood.
Sir Trev
14-10-09, 11:46 AM
Unless it is gross misconduct in which they can skip directly to the final warning
Not quite. Gross misconduct would be instant dismissal for all but the most daft companies.
Unless your colleague has other things being taken into consideration a justified sickness absence (with Dr letter) is not grounds for dismissal. In fact it's not grounds for disciplinary action at all. At worst it would be a first step - which is commonly a verbal warning as the others have already said.
Have you had a chat with CAB?
normally it would come under Restoring Efficiency, rather than disciplinary at my place (MoD), but should the sick absences be considered excessive they would start monitoring processes, and escalate from there.
It is fairly hard to sack people nowadays as you can always do them for unfair dismissal. But very easy to make them redundant
an excuse to shove her out the door with paying her redundancy etc etc
For the sake of £760 max :shock:(subject to assumptions) for 2.8 yrs service
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