Car Wheel Balancing

[-Ralph-]

Anybody else have HELL getting wheels balanced every time they go for new tyres?

Is there something about modern cars with bigger wheels and tyres (or something about the quality of new tyres) that means they are impossible to balance up? Or are tyre places just not getting the machines calibrated nowadays? I never used to have this problem, but my last three cars (320d, Mondeo, Vectra) have suffered badly with this. Every time I get new tyres I seem to need three different garage's balancing machines and endless swapping wheels around the car until I get smooth motorway running. Does everyone else just drive around and not notice a vibrating wobbly steering wheel? If I've had this problem every set of tyres on my last three cars, how many other cars on the road must be running around out of balance?

Just got two new Goodyear Eagle NCT5's on the front of the Vectra SRI (215/50/17) and the garage has failed with two attempts to balance them up, I'm going to need to take it somewhere else.

[Specialone]

Anybody else have HELL getting wheels balanced every time they go for new tyres?

Is there something about modern cars with bigger wheels and tyres (or something about the quality of new tyres) that means they are impossible to balance up? Or are tyre places just not getting the machines calibrated nowadays? I never used to have this problem, but my last three cars (320d, Mondeo, Vectra) have suffered badly with this. Every time I get new tyres I seem to need three different garage's balancing machines and endless swapping wheels around the car until I get smooth motorway running. Does everyone else just drive around and not notice a vibrating wobbly steering wheel? If I've had this problem every set of tyres on my last three cars, how many other cars on the road must be running around out of balance?

Just got two new Goodyear Eagle NCT5's on the front of the Vectra SRI (215/50/17) and the garage has failed with two attempts to balance them up, I'm going to need to take it somewhere else.

Ralph,
I bought a new vw golf from vw (funnily enough) and that had wobble from new, only around 70 mph, at 80 it goes.
Got them to check it, found nothing wrong, when i get round to it im gonna get another garage to have a go, but the tyres have at least 10k left in them so will just have to pay for balance.
Phil

[punyXpress]

Did they fit them with the balance dots level with the valves?

[timwilky]

My vectra SRI is a pig to get right. The lease company insist I use quickfit and they cannot balance them. I took it back after the last set of tyres 3 times and still they put it on the machine change the weights and say it will be ok this time sir.

I just wish they would drive it down a motorway for 5 mins, they would come back with RSI to wrists, shoulders etc.

[flymo]

how can it be so hard to balance a wheel on a machine?

[Sir Trev]

Did they fit them with the balance dots level with the valves?

Even if they don't the balance machine should compensate for that with weights and their placement.

Never had a problem with my 205/50/17 Mundaneo so it does sound like either quality of machine or operative of same!!

Small plug for Micheldever Tyres in Hampshire for car tyres. Best prices I've ever been quoted and worth a trip out I've often found. Tracking/balancing seems to work fine and I've tried them with several cars now all with different tyre bands and wheel sizes. Do good prices on bike tyres (ride in) too but of course I now use Spannerman for this!

[7755matt]

It's been a while since I used a balancer but the last one I used effectively had 2 settings. You would do an initial balance and then you could fine tune it. The only thing I can think is that more places just do a quick initial balance and leave it at that, possibly due to having more work on and most people will live with it. It's also easy to move the tyre off the point where the weight should be if you're not careful

[-Ralph-]

Thanks for the replies folks, keep 'em coming, the more knowledge on this the better IMO, it's a black art to most folk, but everybody needs it done.

Did they fit them with the balance dots level with the valves?

Even if they don't the balance machine should compensate for that with weights and their placement

My wife is away with the car today, so I'll take a torch out and check tonight. I didn't know balance dots existed so I've just googled it. Even if the balance machine should even it out, would I be right in thinking you'd need more weight, and that I'd be easier to balance if the dots were in the right place?

[flymo]

Thanks for the replies folks, keep 'em coming, the more knowledge on this the better IMO, it's a black art to most folk, but everybody needs it done.





My wife is away with the car today, so I'll take a torch out and check tonight. I didn't know balance dots existed so I've just googled it. Even if the balance machine should even it out, would I be right in thinking you'd need more weight, and that I'd be easier to balance if the dots were in the right place?

It wouldnt necessarily be easier to balance but as you say it would reduce the amount of weight necessary. You wont be able to check visually, they are either in balance or not, regardless of where the dots are.

They need checking properly on a balance machine.

As has been said, its probably been done in a bit of a hurry. A typical tyre fitter wont be as picky as perhaps you or I might be when balancing.

I fit and balance my own bike tyres, if you go to the trouble of getting them spot on then you feel no vibration at all.

[-Ralph-]

IYou wont be able to check visually, they are either in balance or not, regardless of where the dots are.

No I realise that, I just want to check if the dots are indeed in the right place.

[Tiger 55]

Does everyone else just drive around and not notice a vibrating wobbly steering wheel?
It's not that I don't notice, I just speed up or slow down until the problem goes away. :)

[flymo]

It's not that I don't notice, I just speed up or slow down until the problem goes away officer. :)

;)

[punyXpress]

No I realise that, I just want to check if the dots are indeed in the right place.

It'll show the attitude of the ' fitter ' towards doing a proper job.

[svtomo]

have you got alloys? are they balanced with 'sticky' wieghts or the hammer on type?
if they are sticky check they havent fallen off.
also check for stones in the tread of the tyre or caked on mud on the wheel.
if the wieghts are still there take your car to another garage, youll have to pay for it but the first garage cant get it right 1st time then dont expect them to the 2nd.

[-Ralph-]

:smt041:smt041:smt041:smt041:smt041:smt041:smt041:

SORTED! Jacksons Ford in Henley in Arden have a guy called Dan that can only be described as a wheel balancing genius, and a Hunter GSP9700 Laser Balancing machine which he knows inside out. It checks out tyre shape & thickness, flexibility, heavy spots, wheel shape, everything. 15 quid a wheel, but the best 30 quid I've ever spent on the car, and they will match the price I paid for the tyres, so guess where I'll be going for the next two? He couldn't believe how far out of balance they were for a tyre which I had watched zero out on somebody else's balancing machine.

The car is smoother than me in the company of a young blonde :p

The tyre didn't have balancing dots BTW

[Bluefish]

so the problem was previouse crap tools and or operator, i've had problems in the past with tracking quick**** etc.

[-Ralph-]

so the problem was previouse crap tools and or operator, i've had problems in the past with tracking quick**** etc.

Yep, trouble is the last time I had tyres I needed three different places to get it sorted, even then they only got it nearly right and I had to rotate wheels around the car myself and play about with the position of the locking wheel nut until I found a smooth combination.

Kwik-Fit, National, Euromaster, all these places either seem to have crap fitter who doesn't know what buttons to press, or uncalibrated or crap machines.

Some cars seem to be more sensitive than others too. My wife's Seat Ibiza was done by the same fitter and machine that caused the problem on mine and her steel wheel with a 185/60/14 tyre is absolutely fine.

Most of them do look 20 years old, whereas this is the machine that was used today and the guy obviously knew his onions when it came to the physics of a spinning wheel and tyre. He was also the only person who has ever been able to explain to me why I suddenly get balancing problems when visiting my in-laws in France, but roll back off the ferry on the return trip and suddenly it's fine again.

Note the rolling road which checks tyre wall deformation, stiffness and contact patch, and the arm which usually takes the wheel measurements is a laser. There another laser that puts a red line on the wheel when it stops to show you exactly where the weight needs to go.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2549/3739375022_2bd832ec9c_o.jpg

[Quiff Wichard]

and why is it diff in France Ralph?


camber of the road?

[-Ralph-]

camber of the road?

I understood it (kind of), but couldn't repeat it. Camber was one of the factors, but apparently some manufacturers produce slightly different tyres for import to the UK for RHD cars. It was to do with the way the tyre sidewall deforms when it's rolling and the shape/size of the contact patch being different with the different camber and different tyre, applies a toeing force to the tyre creating a phase shift in the various frequencies involved, creating the vibration.

Or something like that, my translation could be bollox.

Told you he knew his onions, try to get an explanation like that out of a YTS yob at Kwik-Fit!

[embee]

Think you've hit the nail on the head Ralph, an awful lot of places have junk machines with appropriate operators, it's treated as a money spinner not a wheel spinner (sic).

There's no substitute for knowledge and understanding, skill, care and attention to detail.

The guy who fits my bike tyres is very fussy, first time he fitted a rear to the SV he put the dot-to-valve as usual, but it needed a lot of weight, so he moved the tyre 180deg because he didn't want to put that much weight on a bike wheel. Obviously the wheel itself is out of balance. How many monkeys would bother to do that, I wonder?

[Spanner Man]

Good morning all.


Operator error seems to be the biggest problem in this area methinks. Balancing is a bit of an art which takes a while to get right.

I always dynamically balance wheels of 3.5 inches in width & above.
Dynamic balancing takes into account side to side oscillations of the wheel, whereas static balancing only corrects up & down imbalance.
I suspect that as wheels on cars have got increasingly wider over the last few years it's become increasingly important to dynamically balance them.

As Embee points out some wheels are quite out of balance without a tyre fitted. The worst I've seen was an early R1 rear wheel that wanted over 100 grammes without a tyre fitted! I too have spent quite a while moving a tyre round the wheel in order to avoid putting half a church roof on the rim. :D

My balancer spins the wheel on it's bearings, whereas most do not. Often this highlights problems with the wheel bearings, which could also give you the symptoms of imbalance.


Cheers.


P.S. Thanks for the plug Trev.:D