I do not understand the legal system

[timwilky]

I have kept quiet about this till today.

A few months ago my younger brother was attacked by 4 blokes, as they tried to push him down a flight of steps, the one who was holding onto my brothers neck fell first and my brother landed on top of him.

As a result of the fall the guy suffered a broken neck. My brother had over 20 identified injuries, he was body mapped by a nurse in the custody suite.

Despite the investigating officer saying that it looks like the wrong person was arrested he was today charged with GBH.

Statements have been taken from witnesses that say he was the one who was attacked, however, his attackers say he deliberately pushed the guy down the steps and fell on top as a result of the guy grabbing onto him to prevent his fall.

So they are now saying he used excessive violence to defend himself and it is the courts who will decide whether or not it was proportional.

I don't understand it, 4 onto 1 and it is only the 1 who is charged with anything. A 48 year old company director, if he is convicted and goes down over 20 people will loose their jobs as his business folds.

[Spiderman]

legal system sucks Tim, we all know that. Hopefully the judge will see sense and apportion blame where its due.

[Sid Squid]

legal system sucks Tim, we all know that. Hopefully the judge will see sense and apportion blame where its due.
Judges don't get to do that, juries do.

Hopefully they will see what happened.

[Spiderman]

lol, you knew i knew what i meant, and so did you.

Eh?

[Red Herring]

I think there are always various versions of what actually happened and the truth is only ever known by those involved. Even then their versions will differ, simply because two persons involved in the same incident may have different perspectives over what they understood to be happening. The same is true of witnesses. CCTV is often a great help but even then it can't tell you what was in people's mind, and the mens rea is what will settle this. Why was your brother attacked? What was the level of violence offered? What were your brothers options, taking into account his size, skill level, intoxication and numerous other factors? Did your brother have any influence over the eventual trip down the stairs?
Unfortunately trials are sometimes the only way all these things can be looked into, even more regrettably the truth will be the first victim of any proceedings. I hope he's got a good barrister.

[rob13]

Mens Rea & Actus Reus. Were there any independent witnesses to the assault? Any CCTV? Obviously the CPS have been consulted on this and authorised charge. Does your brother have any previous for violence? From your summary Tim, it sounds like there is some level of injustice here, however as I always say, there are always 2 sides to every story. Thats not to say that I dont believe what you've been told but if you weren't there at the time, you only have your brothers account to call upon.

Hopefully the jury will be able to see the truth during the trial and give their verdict accordingly. If he is the innocent party in all of this, I wish him the very best of luck.

[fastdruid]

It doesn't help that if the CPS don't get the full/proper story they won't make the correct decision, for example in my case due to the PC who got the speed limit wrong what would have been *just* a wheelie turned into speeding *and* a wheelie and because of that went from being a driving course to being up in court. In the end it was all fine but a lot of grief in the mean time.

Fingers crossed for you but its going to be a lot of grief. :-(

Druid

[hindle8907]

The legal system in the UK is total ball-oaks and really pe's me off.
My uncle was murdered on Boton Road Swinton you might of herd about this was around 8 years ago now .
He had been drinking in the Newmarket pub came out and got into a fight with two other men.
They beat him up and left him on the floor then came back and carried on kicking him in.
The postmortem report claimed that the first punch burst an artery in his neck and he died within seconds.
Any punches and kicks after this was not accounted for and my mum told me when she went to see the body that you could barley recognize him he was beaten that bad.

Anyway long story cut short in court the two men was done for manslaughter not murder and both received 12 months imprisonment.
The case after this was a man that had abused his dogs and the man received a 2 year sentence.
Where is the justice in that ? my Uncle,a dad of 4 and only 34 years old taken away from us and his killers get a few months in prison,

Then a junkie that beats his dogs up gets a 2 year sentence .

its a joke anit it .

[yorkie_chris]

Look on the bright side, when your brothers brief gets the judge laughing his head off at the prosecutor and kicks the case out then he can have a good old complain at everyone, for such an obvious wrongdoing there must be someone you can sue.

Bit underhand, but with some luck it will make life unpleasant for whichever tosser authorised the case going to court.

Any charges going the other way?

[thefallenangel]

i have zero belief in the police, armed forces or government.

Simply put the police are a **** take on what they use to be. They don't bother with people speeding unless they know they can get them banned, dont' bother pulling cars over unless a computer flashes telling them too and are so programmed it's stupid hense why your brother is up for something which it sounds likes he didn't do.

Get a good lawyer and charge the bill back to the idiots.

[punyXpress]

[QUOTE=yorkie_chris;2078314]

with some luck it will make life unpleasant for whichever tosser authorised the case going to court.

Hell will freeze over before any gnome is inconvenienced because of what they have caused others - the system guarantees that!

To answer your point, Tim :
Neither do Government Ministers or MPs.
Best of luck for him with this though luck should never come into it.

[Red Herring]

What really bothers me is that we rely on juries. You know, panels made up of the public, people like us...

Based on a few lines of third party account several people seem to have concluded that the accused is innocent, that the police are incompetent, and that the CPS are stupid. In fact they are so convinced they are already looking at ways they can make some money out of it!

it's no surprise we get some odd verdicts.

[keith_d]

How can we run a legal system when half the jurors are below median intelligence??

In practice I'd imagine it's more than half because a fair percentage of the ones above median intelligence can find some way to avoid doing service. Add in peoples irrational prejudices and it's amazing the justice system works as well as it does.

Keith.

[maviczap]

I suggest on another thread we should get rid of the jury system and go to the French or European system of a panel of judges, but I got castigated for that.

The CPS seem to be the fly in the oinkment these days, as they make the judgement call on the evidence that's presented to them

[yorkie_chris]

Based on a few lines of third party account several people seem to have concluded that the accused is innocent, that the police are incompetent, and that the CPS are stupid. In fact they are so convinced they are already looking at ways they can make some money out of it!

it's no surprise we get some odd verdicts.

Because tim, and by extension his Brother, is "one of us", so we're obviously going to be biased in his favour.

[Owenski]

I do support the police they have a tough job to do, even the most open/shut cases there will be someong lying to make matter harder for the police to determine what is right/wrong. The problem here though Tim I recon is its becuase your bother shows up on file as John smith, a normal man who works all day and has a family around him. He's prime meat for the police and the CPS, they can get to him. Its the life time ******s that did him over that know how to work the system in their favour, would be suprised if your bother has to pay compo to the fools who jumped him.
Hindle im sorry to hear about your uncle, it must be a hard pill to swallow when its a life taken and they still get away lightly.

[timwilky]

OK, then a little bit more meat on this.

My nephew works at the social club where this happens. It was a Sunday afternoon and the club was hosting a christening party. He had refused to server a woman as in his opinion she was already the worse for wear. My brother is the chairman of the management comittee.

The woman took exception and complained to the stewardess and ended up pushing the stewardess onto the floor. My brother suggested to the woman and her small family group that they should leave. As they were leaving that is when they attacked him. He was stone cold sober as he was driving.

ironically 2 days later I was sitting outside a pub nearby and there was a group on the next table and I overheard a conversation

How is *****
In a bad way, his neck is broken
What happened?
That ******* Paul who owns ***** through him down the steps at Chads
******* he needs his legs breaking
We are organising it, he is going to get a call to come out to a job at **** and we will be waiting.



Of course a call was made to my brother.


The attackers are a known group of village inbred idiots. Having talked to my brother last night a few local cops have visited him for a supportive chat, but have told him he is a victim of the system that looks to blame someone

[Owenski]

Sounds about right.

It stands to reason, that your bro would try and start on 4 known thugs at the top of a stairway in his own establishment. All the while when he is sober and they selves are intoxicated and would therefore be less likely to co-operate. I mean who wouldnt pick a fight under those curcumstances...

Im guessing he doesnt have CCTV in that stairwell. I hope it all works out for him Tim keep us posted.

[rob13]

Tim,
There are cases where the accused is charged, the file is submitted and in the interim between it going to court, it gets reviewed by a CPS lawyer at the Crown and they make a decision that this case should have never got to court. Of course GBH is a serious matter and not one taken lightly.
Were there any counter charges? Are there no other indy witnesses?

Oh and to the other posters, please dont turn this into another police bashing thread. We have enough of those throughout this forum which are quite frankly tiresome. I'm sick to death about hearing about the injustices of motorists. Traffic Officers are only one element of the service, the rest of us have our own jobs to do.

[Shellywoozle]

i have zero belief in the police, armed forces or government.

Simply put the police are a **** take on what they use to be. They don't bother with people speeding unless they know they can get them banned, dont' bother pulling cars over unless a computer flashes telling them too and are so ................


Don't agree .... I personally pull over speeders and issue tickets knowing very well I am in a non calibrated car and the tickets will be thrown back by the ticket office.
But this passes the message to the people in the town I work. I do not have ANPR in my car therefore there is no computer pushing my buttons.
I am very traffic orientated and would hope I make a difference where it needs.

As for the OP, mate I do hope that justice is served correctly and I await in anticipation of the outcome. It is a difficult job to gather all the evidence but that is all Police are in effect, it is the Courts that listen to the evidence and your brother will have his opportunity to stand up and say what happened.

You have to ask yourself what other evidence has been gathered and what it shows, the CPS will review after, as Robchester says file builders etc have reviewed. The process it goes through prior to getting to Court is imense and timely and EVERY piece of evidence has to be gathered not matter how small.

Fingers crossed for him hun



Oh and to the other posters, please dont turn this into another police bashing thread. We have enough of those throughout this forum which are quite frankly tiresome. I'm sick to death about hearing about the injustices of motorists. Traffic Officers are only one element of the service, the rest of us have our own jobs to do.

Well said that man !

[Red Herring]

Tim, I wasn't trying to have a pop at you but rather those that appeared to be trying to jump on a bandwagon. From what you say it does sound as if your brother has got the dirty end of the stick and I do hope that whatever tales have been given to CPS for them to take the route they have get well and truly outed in court. If it's any help I've sat through enough court cases to have more confidence than most in the system. The way it works you are far more likely to see a guilty party go free than an innocent convicted.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Tim, I wasn't trying to have a pop at you but rather those that appeared to be trying to jump on a bandwagon. From what you say it does sound as if your brother has got the dirty end of the stick and I do hope that whatever tales have been given to CPS for them to take the route they have get well and truly outed in court. If it's any help I've sat through enough court cases to have more confidence than most in the system. The way it works you are far more likely to see a guilty party go free than an innocent convicted.

Amen to that...

[Owenski]

Tim, I wasn't trying to have a pop at you but rather those that appeared to be trying to jump on a bandwagon. From what you say it does sound as if your brother has got the dirty end of the stick and I do hope that whatever tales have been given to CPS for them to take the route they have get well and truly outed in court. If it's any help I've sat through enough court cases to have more confidence than most in the system. The way it works you are far more likely to see a guilty party go free than an innocent convicted.

Lol, I know what your saying but those 2 sentances dont seem like 2 that should be read in conjunction with each other.

[grh1904]

Tim,

Oh and to the other posters, please dont turn this into another police bashing thread. We have enough of those throughout this forum which are quite frankly tiresome. I'm sick to death about hearing about the injustices of motorists. Traffic Officers are only one element of the service, the rest of us have our own jobs to do.

Rob, I do believe I owe you a pint my good man.

Having read through the posts, it's as plain as a nose on the face that the cops on here are just as pee'd off at the CJS as the rest of the public. For example...........

I'm currently on an extended attachment to a branch of CID and dealt with a job the other day. You may have read in the press about a 17 year old girl killed in Co. Durham - that tied up all the tecs leaving me to manage a burglary case.

The suspect (recently released from custody) and living 5 doors away from a 76 year old bloke & his wife - sneaks into the bedroom while they watch TV & nicks £900 cash, bank cards etc etc.

Using said cash goes on a spending spree (as well as shoplifting etc), and when locked up for being Drunk & Dizzy is found to have sheeeet loads of cash & the stolen bank cards etc, along with lots of goods purchased with said stolen cash.

House searched reveals more items from the 76 yeard old blokes house in the suspects bedroom (under the bed).

After a 15 hour shift the CPS would only allow me to charge Handling Stolen goods instead of burglary.

Reasons: - 48 hrs had passed from burglary to suspect being found in possession of said items (despite more being in a carrier bag under the bed), so some one else could have done it and given suspect the cards, the money, the 6 wallets, the bus pass, the old military ID card, the currys receipt, the currys delivery note, the opticians prescription - ( as a note to the readers of this post "NO burglaries reported in that village for over 18 months until suspect moves in 5 doors away") - are you kinda getting the picture!!!!!!!

Try telling this couple that the suspect hasn't been charged with burglary to their home but only for handling their (now stolen) property, and answering questions like "I was putting that money to one side for the winter so that we could afford to run the heating & the grand-bairns Xmas presents, will I not get it back??"

Tim, I have every sympathy with your brother, hopefully justice will prevail and a jury clearly see what is going on and return the appropriate verdict.

[timwilky]

An update, slightly good news,

I was talking to the bro over christmas, it would appear one of his attackers has been charged as a result of the injuries to my brother.

However the GBH charge against my brother has not yet been dropped.

[Specialone]

Ba*t*rds, hope it turns out the way it should.
IMO shouldnt have even got to a charge.

[Bri w]

An update, slightly good news,

I was talking to the bro over christmas, it would appear one of his attackers has been charged as a result of the injuries to my brother.

However the GBH charge against my brother has not yet been dropped.

Tim, I really hope this gets sorted out soon, both for your brother and you/family.

The fact that a charge of assault has since been brought suggests the Police are still pursuing the right people, and are still seeking evidence that will support your bro.

Fingers crossed matey.

[rob13]

Tim is it going to Crown Court?

I have a funny feeling, somewhere in amongst this, that it will either get binned at court or a lesser public order conviction will be offered in the bartering process.

[timwilky]

Yes, he has been given his date for crown court. He is currently in the process of disposing of assets just in case things go badly, Houses now owned by his wife, businesses by son etc.