Instinct, skill or luck? Van pulls out in front of me!

[KnightRider]

Wow, just had a run in with a van on the CBR!

Going down the road to my work, indicating right to turn into the company car park was off the throttle doing 30ish. Courier van pulls out straight in front of me from a road on the left.

1. Grab front brake - no skid, not stopping fast enough either.

2. Hit rear brake - no weight on the wheel + it is very moist ...it locks up engine stalls...doh

3. Bike slides with the rear coming around my left hand side
(I'm thinking, this is going to hurt...side on into the van not fun)

4. Cue instinct, I spin the rear the other way (ie over my right and side instead of left) and do a perfect semi circle around the front of the van with my front wheel missing his bumper by centimeters.

5. Kick the clutch in hoping to drive forward a tad to rescue the bike from falling....no engine already stalled it.

6. Bike comes to a stop sideways. I'm facing toward the curb, momentum of bike pushes me over to the right of the bike. Left foot out....crap can't hold it and I gently lye it down on its side.

And then :smt075 to the van driver. His excuse....I thought you would stop for me. :smt096

No damage to either me or the bike.

So the question. Instinct, skill or luck? I can remember wanting to spin the rear to the other side of me but cant remember how I did it. Felt a bit like a skid I would do on my old push bike. I guess the principles are similar?

Anyhow, you live you learn.

Need to practice braking in the wet it seems. Not too happy about stalling and I have never done that before in an emergency. Especially annoyed as I have been training myself to keep my toes on the pegs to avoid over use of the rear brake. There just seemed to be no traction on the rear tyre at 30 in the wet to keep the wheel moving even with what I thought was a light amount of rear brake. Any suggestions on how to improve my skills in this area?

[KnightRider]

Of course, I also need to improve my observation skills! Dented courier van sat on a side road in front of me...alarm bells should have been ringing.

[Luckypants]

I hope to god you reported him for dangerous driving.

[Steve_God]

I'd say a combo of all three, but more so instinct than anything.

Only thing to mention in those kinda of situations, are that often you will have more grip by keeping the power on and steering around them (if it's possible) than to brake and stop.
When it comes to braking, if you've already got the front brake on, all the weight of the bike and you will be at the front of the bike, and one the front wheel - meaning that when you put the back brake on, it is almost certainly likely to lock up, especially in the wet!

The only 'text-book' addition to slowing down, it to change down gear and use the engine braking to progressively slow the back wheel down, but when I've had one of those situations, it's normally the last thing you think of and too late before you think of it!

[EssexDave]

I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, but I always change down a gear whenever I brake. Whether in the car or bike. Obviously not for minor adjustments but it really does help. As this is now instinct, in emergancies I find myself automatically changing down gear for the engine braking, meaning generally don't have to brake as hard and therefore less chance of locking anything.

In regards to your incident, well done for saving it all. +1 to reporting him for dangerous driving.

As far as practising goes, I'm not really sure. If you had a small capacity bike you don't mind throwing down then perhaps practice on private land? Other than this I can't think of anything.

[Red Herring]

I think the fact that you were able to swerve around the front of the van lends support to the argument it would have been better to swerve than brake, however hindsight is a wonderful thing and when you see the van pulling out you don't know it's going to stop and leave you room so going for the brakes first is instinctive. The main thing is not to snatch the front brake as that will lock it before the weight gets a chance to transfer, and it sounds as if you did that bit spot on, however then going for the back brake was the problem because by then all the weight is off the rear.
The textbook technique in the wet is to go for both brakes at the same time and then release the rear as the front loads up. The application of the rear tends to squat the back of the bike which helps keep the CoG low and some weight on the back, but as the front then loads up you do need to release it and let the engine braking take care of the back wheel. Nice recovery though, bit of everything I'd say.

[philbut]

Are you going to wear more than jeans to work now Jon ;-)

Glad you managed to avoid contact with road / van. Nice one chap.

[Bluefish]

agree with the all three, but well done for the save, could have been nasty. new pair of trousers perhaps :D

[Davies]

The force is strong in this one.

[davepreston]

tbh it sounds like instinct was you friend there ,well done btw you could have easily bottled it and made it far worse, as for improvement more wet time is all i can suggest on top of the above, also a big carpark to feel the max of your bike is good eg brake limits etc

[wyrdness]

Did you punch van driver in the face and say, "Sorry, I thought you'd duck"?

[KnightRider]

Only thing to mention in those kinda of situations, are that often you will have more grip by keeping the power on and steering around them (if it's possible) than to brake and stop.

Whilst in theory I agree with the swerve technique, I have to suggest that it is impossible to do.

The problem is that at the point that the vehicle starts pulling out you dont know how committed to their manouver they will be.

Imagine if you will the following two scenarious - remember you are swerving and therefore not braking:

Scenario 1 - you swerve right but the car in front of you has accelerated to get out of your way. You hit the bonnet, the car is doing 20 you are doing 30. Ouch.

Scenario 2 - you swerve left either into the curb and potentially into pedestrians or directly into the path of the car which has hit the brakes - except remember you have not hit the brakes are are still doing 30+.

Now my worst case scenario. I hit the brakes and continue straight taking avoiding action where possible, I have scrubbed off 20mph and am now doing 10 mph. I hit the van. Now I might be hurt and the bike damaged, but I am alive and the bike is reparable!

Think I will stick with the brakes and only swerve if the opportunity arises.

[thulfi]

sounds like an awesome save, nice job!..

I hope one day my riding survives long enough to have these kind of instincts!

[Owenski]

your told for insurance purposes never to swerve. those 2 senarios listed above are for that very reason.
Saying that, if I didnt swerve/choose power rather than the brake I'd have been down the road a few times just on the commute (YC was witness to that just last week).
Its reaction/instinct me thinks that gets you through them situations, nice work! Did you feel slightly invincable afterwards or wa you too **** scared to think?

[ArtyLady]

your told for insurance purposes never to swerve. ....

What? never heard of that!:confused: and if thats the case why have they changed the test to include a swerve? ;-)

[philbut]

I think it makes it easier to claim if your bike is embedded in the side of the car who pulled out on you rather than lying on the floor, with not a mark on the other vehicle. There is a thread on here at the moment where a chap was cut up by a car turning right, but he ditched the bike to avoid the collision. The other party is now claiming it was not her fault as the bike didn't actually hit her car. I doubt you'd be thinking about that in the heat of the moment mind...

[madcockney]

Wow, just had a run in with a van on the CBR!
Need to practice braking in the wet it seems. Not too happy about stalling and I have never done that before in an emergency. Especially annoyed as I have been training myself to keep my toes on the pegs to avoid over use of the rear brake. There just seemed to be no traction on the rear tyre at 30 in the wet to keep the wheel moving even with what I thought was a light amount of rear brake. Any suggestions on how to improve my skills in this area?

Still doing my DAS and in the last few weeks have had plenty of practise in the wet of controlled (emergency?) stops, swerving and stopping in a box both from in excess of 50 KPH (32+ MPH). Both manoeuvres being part of the famous or infamous, depending on your point of view, Module 1 test. What we are taught is to use both back and front backs simultaneously in the wet, while at the same time roll off the throttle completely, and keep the clutch engaged until the engine is about to stall. The affect is that you use engine breaking to slow the bike down and it also pulls the back wheel down onto the road producing increased braking from the back tyre.

If you use too much braking on the back, all the books and training state use 50/50 rear and front in the wet, your back wheel will start to lock and skid but that can be corrected quickly by relaxing the brake pedal to allow the back wheel to restart spinning at the same speed as the front, and then re-apply the back brake. If both wheels start to skid then relax both brakes. Not trying to teach grandmother to suck eggs, but just passing on what we are taught and it does appear to work.

You were lucky there, and I trust that it was your instincts and experience that got you out of the problem. I have seen or had a few close shaves whilst out training and that is when wearing a high vis tabard or vest. In one instance I was following an instructor at 30 mph with approx 3-4 second gap between the bikes and a car pulled out of a left hand side road between us and turned right. Luckily I was on the ball that day, read the drivers (top of) body language as we approached, saw the gap in oncoming traffic flow, and watched her wheels so was ready to brake to reduce speed and extend the gap when the car moved.

[walkaboutandy]

Nice skills, Jon. Its good 'piece of mind' when your instincts get proved and you know your brain is not going to just 'freeze' in a situation.

Did you punch van driver in the face and say, "Sorry, I thought you'd duck"?

Ha ha ...classic! Love to do that!

[ThEGr33k]

Ive had a similar thing happen to me, well they pulled across the front of me (from a closed road that they arnt supposed to be parking on, its blocked off but there is enough room for people to park! Grr) I was faced with seeing him starting out as I came out of a blind corner. So by instructive I slammed on the brakes hard to try and stop, I then realised there was no chance and I had to second guess him. I decided he was a blind **** so I went to try and go behind him instead of in front. I almost made it, I impacted with the rear off side of his (transit pickup!) vehicle with my fairing and arm, tank shaulder. Somhow even though I had my arm pulled off of the handle bar stay on the bike and stop it.

Bike was knackered, no right hand bar, no front brake lever throttle etc. Tank had a massive gouge in the side. Generally not good :(

Oh and for some reason I can remember thinking, Ah ill take it easy down here... I have no idea why I chose to as you can easily do 60+ and its a national speed limit road! :confused: So maybe thats luck, though arguably if id gone faster id have just gone past and never need worry. :rolleyes: Also there were 3 of them in the cab. Why the idiot driver didnt get one of them to go out and look what was coming ill never know.

Here are a few paint pics of what kinda happened (click to enlarge... Im sure they will make sense ha ha):-

5765
5766
5767
5768



So anyway from my exp id say its 70% instinct 30% skill, the instinct is the first instant reaction, then what comes next is skill, which is the fast thinking/rapid situation summary and actions that follow that.

Hope you dont mind me adding my story :)

[thulfi]

ok...

so just to clarify nice and neatly..

In the wet: Front and Rear 50/50
In dry conditions: Front>Rear, right?

Could you perhaps just clarify what is meant by this though..

The textbook technique in the wet is to go for both brakes at the same time and then release the rear as the front loads up.

as in the 'loading up' part of things..thanks!

[davepreston]

ok...

so just to clarify nice and neatly..

In the wet: Front and Rear 50/50
In dry conditions: Front>Rear, right?( similtainiously 70 front 30 rear, or a millisecond before use rear then front would be a better description)

Could you perhaps just clarify what is meant by this though..



as in the 'loading up' part of things..thanks!
loading up is weight transfer of the bike ,if you load the front (use lots of front brake forks compress forward and down) the rear brake is useless as the rear wheel is barely in contact with the road same the other way but not as dramaticaly

[BanannaMan]

loading up is weight transfer of the bike ,if you load the front (use lots of front brake forks compress forward and down) the rear brake is useless as the rear wheel is barely in contact with the road same the other way but not as dramaticaly





You can also "load up" the rear of the bike while sliding sideways.
But loading up of the rear shock generally results in a spectacular highside.
Ever seen a pic of a race bike flipping wildly through the air?
Don't ask me how I know.
My shoulder/collarbone still hurts everytime I think about it. :(


I think you had all three at work there.
And when I'm riding I'll gladly take any or all of the above.

[KnightRider]

If you use too much braking on the back, all the books and training state use 50/50 rear and front in the wet, your back wheel will start to lock and skid but that can be corrected quickly by relaxing the brake pedal to allow the back wheel to restart spinning at the same speed as the front, and then re-apply the back brake.

Whilst they say that on the DAS the reality is very different. I did not hit the rear brakes too hard at all but it still locked because I had loaded the front wheel relatively gently and was getting good traction. The weight was well and truly off the rear wheel and as I have a supersport bike I dont think there was enough grip to help me slow down at all.

When I was on the SV I had a similar experience, the engine braking was such that you did not need to use the rear brake much at all in these situations.

My advice...the rear brake is manouvers, scubbing small amounts of speed in corners and keeping the bike stopped when you are not moving and are on a hill.

[Sosha]

And ofcourse with you sitting so far forward in order to reach the bars....


;-)

[Owenski]

What? never heard of that!:confused: and if thats the case why have they changed the test to include a swerve? ;-)

aye its true, if you swerve and crash into someone else then thats an entierly different collision to the one you were trying to avoid. Therefore an accident that was your fault as it was you who swerved into the 3rd party. bit crap but insurance usually is.

You never heard the cat fox kid rule? ie if its a cat or a fox, your not allowed to swerve you've got to run it over. Only if a child runs in front of your vehicle are you allowed to drive avaisivly.

[ThEGr33k]

Generally I find that if you use the back brake and the front they both load well and it improves control.