Any Hi -Fi enthusiasts on the ORG ?

[stewie]

Hey guys, in a sad attempt to relive my yoof, I have decided to put together a proper Hi-Fi set up, mostly I need a bit of advice on a decent turntable, Ive always hankered after a Linn Sondek LP12 but funds have always been against me, so I looking for a turntable, belt driven preferably, with 33 and poss 45 rpm speeds, top price is £200 max and that includes 2nd hand as most enthusiasts look after there gear so 2nd hand is no biggie, thanks for looking
Stew :)

[tigersaw]

I got this from the tip many years ago, put it on ebay and got several hundred pounds:

http://forums.sv650.org/picture.php?albumid=97&pictureid=3757

[Bluefish]

I got this from the tip many years ago, put it on ebay and got several hundred pounds:

http://forums.sv650.org/picture.php?albumid=97&pictureid=3757


what is it an egg poacher?

[tigersaw]

Mitchell hydraulic reference turntable. (posh record player thats too fiddly to use and cant get the needles)

[Jayneflakes]

I knew a guy who had one of these (http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/details.htm#prices).

He was a real Hi-Fi nut though. So much so that he had his speaker cables cryogenically treated. He shunned my cheap Sony midi system, claiming it was not a real Hi-Fi... Nutter was a term I would use these days.

[stewie]

I knew a guy who had one of these (http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/details.htm#prices).

He was a real Hi-Fi nut though. So much so that he had his speaker cables cryogenically treated. He shunned my cheap Sony midi system, claiming it was not a real Hi-Fi... Nutter was a term I would use these days.
Yeah you do get a lot of very ''focused'' people in the Hi -Fi world, its actually quite snobby tbh, I just want to listen to some lp,s on a semi decent system, cos Im a bit old now :D

[Spiderman]

i bought my ex g/f a half decent turntable from Richer sounds about 5yrs ago. Cant remember what the brand was but she uses it a hell of a lot and says good things about it. She has tons of old vinyl you see.
Flat mate has a set of 1210s but i dont think you'd get one of those for under 200quid.

[stewie]

I got this from the tip many years ago, put it on ebay and got several hundred pounds:

http://forums.sv650.org/picture.php?albumid=97&pictureid=3757
Bit like this ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MICHELL-TRANSCRIPTORS-HYDRAULIC-REFERENCE-TURNTABLE_W0QQitemZ230402476307QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables?has h=item35a50ec913
Nice one :D

[beabert]

The whole hifi thing is a lot of placebo, dont fall for paying huge amount of money for wires etc as in a blind listening test unless trained you wont notice the difference. I'm not talking about the difference between a £50 mini system and a half decent hifi setup. I talking upwards in price ^ dont get me started of the interconnects, a rip off industry.


As for turntables, never liked the sound myself.

[embee]

I use an AR turntable, it was reasonably well reviewed when new in the early '80s though not in LP12 league. However I did a lot of mods with chassis stiffening and new bearing and spindle (used a phos-bronze valve guide), plus loading the platter with some lead to improve speed and damping and it turned out quite respectable. Linn LVX arm is competent if not high end. I use a moving coil cartridge into an Audiolab 8000A.

The AR weren't overly expensive when new, £160 or so (though equivalent to around £300 now I guess) and had a bit of afollowing so you might pick one up for sensible cash. Like this maybe (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AR-LEGEND-TURNTABLE-WITH-SME-ARMBOARD_W0QQitemZ160382560057QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU K_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables?hash =item25578ba739) (note arm not included)

Turntables and vinyl are all about black art and witchcraft, everything will affect what it sounds like, even things like the platter mat. Fun if you're a techy nerd, boring otherwise.

[VolatileParsley]

Stewie,

There's a lot of BS around regarding the Linn LP12, both positive and negative. The Mrs has an LP12 that she bought second hand for about £500 years ago. We both love the sound it makes.

I have a Michell Orbe which cost considerably more than the LP12 and to be honest I wouldn't say it's any better - different but not better.

Rega turn out some excellent sounding turntables, especially for the money. Look out for the Planar 3 (or P3 as it is now known), a lot of turntable for the money.

For me there's still nothing that rivals vinyl played on a well set-up turntable through some half decent amplification and speakers (apart from a live concert of course). It blows CD and streamed audio into the weeds.

And yes, I am a sad hi-fi geek but only because I love music. For me hi-fi is a necessary evil. :smt096

You may hit lucky upon an LP12 - there are loads around so you may find a bargain. There's no black magic in setting one up - dealers still scare owners into handing over fist-fulls of dosh to have the turntable set-up when anyone that knows how to use a spanner can do it as long as they have patience.

Another cheap alternative to consider is Project.

I hope you find something,
John.

[shonadoll]

We have had a Rega Planar for 20 years, still going strong, and looks and sounds fabulous. I totally think you CAN tell the difference between hifis and separates, we got epos speakers recently and they are much better than the old ones we had.

[jimmy-james]

Get one as simple and heavy as you can find for the money then fit a decent ortofon/sure stylus to it, thats the basic philosophy of buying turntables. I used to work as a hi fi specialist and have been a club DJ for over 10 years. Dont bother with Technics sl1210/sl1200 they are not good for sound quality, too complicated.

[xXBADGERXx]

I second the SL1200/1210 as NOT being a good Turntable for home use .

[Juju]

I've got a Linn lp12, of fairly ancient spec. Bought it second hand with my student grant in 1991ish, had been specced up to new without the corner braced plinth seperating it from new ones. Came with an ittok II and a k9.

Still sounds great today, but it does need a service, a belt and a new stylus now. Significantly better than my arcam ampha 7se CD player.

No harm in trying for a cheap lp12 through ebay, I can't imagine a vintage one is going to be that pricy, and as long as the main bearing isn't shagged through being run without lack of oil, or a distorted armboard from someone tightening up the arm, or shagging the bearings in the arm, it is eminently "servicable".

Alternatively, try for an old Linn Axis. I had one of those before hand, and it was pretty good, and a mate had a Basik turntable that he liked, and I suspect it was a tiny bit better than the "revolver" I had at the time. Any of those will do you fine.

At the same time Ibought the lp12, I did auction a Pink Triange of some description, not the pt too, but I think it was called "the little pink thing", which was pretty good.

If you do get an LP12, remember they will outlast you in all probability, so worth a couple of hundred notes extra to find a good well loved one. Try a local Linn dealer, as they often will have p/ex lp12s from those trading up to a new one.

[coombest]

Rega Planar or P 2 or 3 are a good bet (the 3 is better than the 2 - has glass platter as opposed to a chipboard one on the 2... Not sure what they cost new now - used to be £198 and £298 exc. cartridge when I sold them a few years back.)
Should find good second hand ones for not alot of cash - not a huge amount to go wrong with them either. New Rega cartridges aren't immensely cheap (used to range from £50-500-odd) but they can (usually) have the styli replaced for a small (er!) charge.

The Pro-Ject Debut is a cheap as chips model and sounds (and looks) really good - even comed in a range of colours! Was sub-£200 with a cartridge.

The LP12 is a can of worms - although an awesome, fabulous thing to behold!
There are fewer LP12 dealers (and therefore service agents) around these days (I used to work for one and service them) and they really do need servicing (and using!) regularly to keep sounding their best.
Services include replacing/repairing any damage as well as replacing all the (there's loads of them, too!) springs, gromets, washers, screws, bolts, oil and cable clips. Everything is checked over with a fine toothcomb. I used to take an hour or two servicing one and I was fairly quick at it! There is a plethora of kit for them but less that is still current.
Really would advise having an expert look at one before you buy if you are seriously interested - could get VERY expensive otherwise.
The Basik power supplies are no longer manufactured and the Lingo (alternative - offboard - power supply) cost £800 when I last sold them!
There's a new, more expensive one out now too!
Replacement arms are gonna cost you similar (or bigger) hunks of cash, as they only sell the top two now as well!!

I remember putting together a new, relatively low spoec LP12 for a customer and it cost £5k.

Any way, I'm sure you get the picture!

With regards the cartridge/stylus - it differs what's best for each turntable so a question aimed at a decent hifi retailer is probably worthwhile!

Any way - good luck!!:D

[Juju]

The LP12 is a can of worms - although an awesome, fabulous thing to behold!
There are fewer LP12 dealers (and therefore service agents) around these days (I used to work for one and service them) and they really do need servicing (and using!) regularly to keep sounding their best.
Services include replacing/repairing any damage as well as replacing all the (there's loads of them, too!) springs, gromets, washers, screws, bolts, oil and cable clips. Everything is checked over with a fine toothcomb. I used to take an hour or two servicing one and I was fairly quick at it! There is a plethora of kit for them but less that is still current.
Really would advise having an expert look at one before you buy if you are seriously interested - could get VERY expensive otherwise.
The Basik power supplies are no longer manufactured and the Lingo (alternative - offboard - power supply) cost £800 when I last sold them!
There's a new, more expensive one out now too!
Replacement arms are gonna cost you similar (or bigger) hunks of cash, as they only sell the top two now as well!!

I remember putting together a new, relatively low spoec LP12 for a customer and it cost £5k.

Any way, I'm sure you get the picture!

With regards the cartridge/stylus - it differs what's best for each turntable so a question aimed at a decent hifi retailer is probably worthwhile!

Any way - good luck!!:D

Blimey - when I got mine dealers had boxes of valhalla power supplies literally in boxes from all the early lingo adoptees.... I think at one point my local dealer was knocking them out s/h for £50 or less.

[coombest]

Blimey - when I got mine dealers had boxes of valhalla power supplies literally in boxes from all the early lingo adoptees.... I think at one point my local dealer was knocking them out s/h for £50 or less.

Yup - and they would probably have all been snapped up years ago... And if they hadn't, they would probably be nackered by now!
The capacitors and other components had a habit of degrading rather badly... To the extent that there was a big warning a few years ago (although I can't remember which power supply it was on!) that if one was the affected power supply was found in a turntable at service, the serial number had to be checked and then depending on the outcome of the check, it be removed or the customer warned that it might catch fire!!!!!!!

Linn were pleasant enough to simply give a small discount off a Lingo (being the only replacement!). But only for a limited period!! :smt107

[TheRamJam]

I am not really a Hi-Fi enthusiasist but my unlce is realy into it. IMO a decent turntable and speakers would be better quality than CD. My uncle has a Baird system and some electrostatic speakers. He put a Del Amitri's Waking Hours LP on and I swear I thought I was at a concert.

Have a look in what Hi-Fi for stuff. Heres a linky http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Pro-Ject-Genie-3/

Its got really good reviews and is on budget :p

[beabert]

Ok now i want a turntable to play with lol

[beabert]

After reading into for an hour i wont waste my money, wetting the discs to reduce hiss lol, love it.

[ophic]

mp3 FTW! :cool:

[Mr Speirs]

mp3 FTW! :cool:

:smt071
That the most wrong thing I've heard since since Micheal Barrymore said 'Fancy a dip?'

[ophic]

:smt071
That the most wrong thing I've heard since since Micheal Barrymore said 'Fancy a dip?'
lol. and I should know better :o

[Mr Speirs]

I tell you what you want to make your Hi-Fi even more Hi-Fi

Silver plated wall plug to keep the electricity nice and clean so your music will sound deeper (what??? no never mind the 250miles of national grid cabling). £3350 essentially a kettle lead :)

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1549&customer_id=PAA0434120909225LUMKFVXWNTQKLDLM

And to go with that you want a gold plated 13amp fuse. £55

http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=703 (http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=703)

And then what you want are these amazing speaker cables..sorry interconnects (if you call them interconnects you can charge much much more) $11,700...oh and you'd need two or three if you have a sub :)

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72793

And then for the ultimate in speaker quality you need to have these little wooden triangles to lift your cables off the floor (i dont really know why but at £ they must do something right??) £33.50 for four

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=4227&customer_id=PAA0434120909225LUMKFVXWNTQKLDLM

The world of Hi-Fi is bonkers, obviously a nice pair of speakers and a decnet amp and a turntable is fine but when you get into Cyrogenacally freezeing CD's to makes them sound better well you just need a punch in the face!!!

Its digital. 1 or a 0 thats all it will ever be not a nicer sounding 1 or a deeper low 0 :)

Anyway rant over :)

[ophic]

Like any commercial business, it's led by profit, not technology. So these items sell because there's muppets out there that buy them. People with money and very little common sense. Very blatant examples there, but there's a little bit of this in a lot of technology sales - i think they call it marketing. The problem is, most of the buying public know nothing of what they're actually buying. So all they have to go on is - pay more, must sound better, right?

[Bibio]

I second the SL1200/1210 as NOT being a good Turntable for home use .


aaahhh but have you heard one with a rega/origin live tonearm modification coupled with a good cart?

for the money it's absolutely mind bogglingly good. turns a 'disco deck' into a 'giant killer'.

i used to be into my hifi. ar 90 speakers, pink triangle tt, blagh blagh... speakers got the dreaded cone rot tt gave up the ghost amps blew up etc.etc. now reduced to pc and altec subwoofer setup. god do i miss my vinyl, still have all my 'black stuff' one day i will get another setup.

[beabert]

I tell you what you want to make your Hi-Fi even more Hi-Fi

Silver plated wall plug to keep the electricity nice and clean so your music will sound deeper (what??? no never mind the 250miles of national grid cabling). £3350 essentially a kettle lead :smile:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...MKFVXWNTQKLDLM (http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1549&customer_id=PAA0434120909225LUMKFVXWNTQKLDLM)

And to go with that you want a gold plated 13amp fuse. £55

http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=703 (http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=703)

And then what you want are these amazing speaker cables..sorry interconnects (if you call them interconnects you can charge much much more) $11,700...oh and you'd need two or three if you have a sub :smile:

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72793

And then for the ultimate in speaker quality you need to have these little wooden triangles to lift your cables off the floor (i dont really know why but at £ they must do something right??) £33.50 for four

http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...MKFVXWNTQKLDLM (http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=4227&customer_id=PAA0434120909225LUMKFVXWNTQKLDLM)

The world of Hi-Fi is bonkers, obviously a nice pair of speakers and a decnet amp and a turntable is fine but when you get into Cyrogenacally freezeing CD's to makes them sound better well you just need a punch in the face!!!

Its digital. 1 or a 0 thats all it will ever be not a nicer sounding 1 or a deeper low 0 :smile:

Anyway rant over

Like any commercial business, it's led by profit, not technology. So these items sell because there's muppets out there that buy them. People with money and very little common sense. Very blatant examples there, but there's a little bit of this in a lot of technology sales - i think they call it marketing. The problem is, most of the buying public know nothing of what they're actually buying. So all they have to go on is - pay more, must sound better, right?

+1's

[Mr Speirs]

So all they have to go on is - pay more, must sound better, right?

The thing is though that 90% of the time the more you pay the better it will sound...but only up to a point. I mean I won't sit here and criticise a £40k CD player as yeah it probably is a really nice sounding piece of equipment that is second to none in looks, sound and style but when you are talking about a grand for a kettle lead which has no actual effect on audio quality well thats when it all gets a bit silly.

[Mr Speirs]

+1's

Well contributed :)

[beabert]

Well contributed

Thank you ;)

[beabert]

Nice link

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

[tigersaw]

I once went on a blind testing panel as a member of the IEE to see if we could discern between various speaker cables (before the term interconnects was coined).
We only managed to spot the bell wire sounded inferior. Copper cooker cable at pennies per metre sounded the same as the super directional oxygen free yada yada $$ cable.

[beabert]

We only managed to spot the bell wire sounded inferior. Copper cooker cable at pennies per metre sounded the same as the super directional oxygen free yada yada $$ cable.

Same when i did a small family test lol.

Im happy with my little second hand b&w speakers, cheapo cambridge amp and an external maudio sound card with thick electrical wire lol.

IMO The room and speaker placement has the largest effect on the sound, both mine are not ideal at all.

[tigersaw]

My current hi fi:

http://forums.sv650.org/picture.php?albumid=97&pictureid=3762

Sonically its terrible, but sounds great to me

[beabert]

That looks cool

[embee]

I agree with a lot of the comments about the pseudo-quasi-techy mumbo jumbo used to sell grossly overpriced glossy tat. However........... :D

Speaker cable design does make as difference to the sound, not saying one is right and one is wrong, but it does affect it.
I played with cheap versions of cable to decide if there was a difference. If you want to try it get some regular 2.5mm T/E mains cable, the solid core stuff not flex, ideally pull the earth (CPC) conductor out but not essential, and connect up one speaker. Then get some fine multistrand cable, there are some cheapish speaker cables with lots of fine strands so needn't cost the earth, and connect up the other speaker. Choose a piece of music with a wide range of frequencies and not too much stereo separation and swing the balance left and right. One solid beefy conductor will give clearer puchy bass but muddier treble, and multistrand will give brighter cleaner treble but thin feeble bass. Why? The argument I understand (which does have genuine technical basis) is that the current flows differently in an individual conductor depending on the frequency, the higher the freq the more the current gets concentrated towards the outer surface of the conductor hence better with lots of small strands (more surface). You may not believe it, but try it and see (hear).

I use TV coax cable with the solid core and stranded screen all soldered together to give both types of conductor, two pieces for each speaker. It costs around 40p/metre so 2 speakers with 2m to each costs around £3.50 or so. Try it.
Maplins do a "proper" version of this now they call bass flex (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?menuno=13094) , and some time I'll get round to trying some (3 different weights available).

[Mr Speirs]

Dual gauge cable mumbo jumbo :) ;)

I think you will actually find that its due to gauge of the thin wire being unable to transfer the power required to properly power the bigger magnet in the speaker therefore on a thin wire it would sound more high-endy possibly clearer.
Using the thick wire is has the ability to power the bigger magnet properly as well as the high end driver and because the low end driver is powered properly it will sound much better, the high end driver will still be putting out exactly the same as the thin wire however as there is more low end the ear perceives this as a drop in high end. It is not it is just how the speaker should sound.

Using dual gauge cable is frankly bonkers and another way to make money out of something that is so subjective (audio).

Trust me all you need is a big enough gauge and the power wont get lost.

[Bluefish]

So how much would one spend on a system without going over the top, something that sounds ok, not top of the range look at me i'm loaded.

[embee]

I think you will actually find ......

Sorry, don't agree (agree to disagree if you like). You can compare the same conductor cross section in solid and multi-strand and it sounds different. I do agree that there's a load of carp talked about some things, but this is one which does have technical substance. If you try it and can't tell the difference then I accept it doesn't work for you. That's why I'd suggest anyone try it with cheap cable options to decide, only cost a few quid to try or even the sort of thing that people will have odd bits of cable laying around.

Also to a large extent it will depend on what equipment it's connected to, if the amp can't deliver the current for bass punch or the speakers can't deliver, it will mask any effect of the cable. I have an old NAD3020 amp which is fairly soft and warm (poor source sounds sort of OK), and the effect is nowhere near as noticeable as with the Audiolab which is much more accurate although in many ways much less forgiving (poor source sounds poor).

Jeez, sounds like I need a life .............:(

Edit - this is the skin/frequency effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect)

[xXBADGERXx]

aaahhh but have you heard one with a rega/origin live tonearm modification coupled with a good cart?

for the money it's absolutely mind bogglingly good. turns a 'disco deck' into a 'giant killer'.

No because it sounds like one of those modifications that you would do if you happened to have an SL1200 with no arm on it and came across one of the others . Or somebody like yourself who has mentioned it . I used to sell a lot of studio equipment and used to roll my eyes when I got calls for a Pair of SL`s . They would ask what was the best needle for it and as far as I am concerned , why would they need the best sounding needle if they were going to be abused in the way they are when they cue stuff up and "Drop it into the Mix" ..... we are talking beginners here with more money than sense . Fair enough I would advise them that if this was their first time then I would get a "Durable" needle for the job and then they can progress to something better once they had mastered their "Art" ........................ or , as is usually the case , I would pass them over to one of the more DJ orientated sales fellers who would just blag them into a sale . Anyway I digress, If I had the chance Bibio , I would give one a listen but an out of the box one wouldn`t get entertained , you can get better for less in that respect .

[Mr Speirs]

How can I put this...cables only affect sound negatively. I agree with you multi strand cable is what everyone should use. But there is absolutely no reason to not use solid wire over multi strand cable on low end applications.
All you need to do is make sure the multi strand cable is thick enough to properly transfer the low end power. The high end doesn't suffer because you are using thicker cable.

Another thing is that in most home applications your 'low end' speaker is actually still not drawing much power and certainly not enough to warrant thick gauge cable.

I run Twin 18" Subs off an Lab Gruppen fp6400. These boxes are ran at 2 ohms and have 2400W of power driving them. These are cabled up using 4mm NL4 Speaker Cable. Obviously multistrand. This is live PA btw no my home system.

So when people talk about thicker wire for low end applications at home invariably they aren't running enough power to actually warrant the theory if you know what I mean.

I mean even the high end drivers in the live boxes are up at 500W.

Fair enough you have heard a difference but the theory for me doesn't hold out.

[embee]

... I agree with you multi strand cable is what everyone should use......
...

...not quite what I was suggesting. Multi for high frequencies, solid for low frequencies, cross section area/power handling is another issue.

I don't know anything about the technicalities of PA, which obviously you do, but I suspect it involves quite different considerations to domestic hi-fi. :drink:

[Mr Speirs]

...

...not quite what I was suggesting. Multi for high frequencies, solid for low frequencies, cross section area/power handling is another issue.

I don't know anything about the technicalities of PA, which obviously you do, but I suspect it involves quite different considerations to domestic hi-fi. :drink:

PA and Hi-FI are similar in power and cabling terms.
But anyway inside your speaker have you got multi strand cable or solid cable going to your LF driver?

[embee]

My speakers are home built 3-way SEAS units, when I built them I rewired the crossovers with solid core to bass, multistrand to tweets and the infamous soldered coax (solid+multi) to the mids. I probably really ought to try "tri-wiring" back to a crossover at the amp, but have never got round to it. It'd be a bit messy I think, 3 lots of cable dragged around the place.

The cables from amp to speakers is the soldered up coax, one day I'll get some of the Maplins bass-flex stuff to try. I don't really spend much time palying with this stuff these days, I just listen to what's there!

[Mr Speirs]

furry muff :)

[Bibio]

an out of the box one wouldn`t get entertained , you can get better for less in that respect .

yup i totally agree, they are a terrible sounding deck in standard guise. but with a rega or similar arm plonked on them they are awesum for the money the timing and bass depth is up there with the likes of a Q deck or a rock. ok so its a little less 'open' than a top flight tt such as a zarathustra, sme or fully fledged goldmund but those things are megga bucks.

may i just add that i think the LP12 is an overpriced dated deck that has been tweeked and modified to death, yup they sound 'ok' but not for the price they are asking for one nowadays.