Track T-800 CDI

[Alpinestarhero]

I've been reading alot recently about the Track T-800CDI (http://www.dieselmotorcycle.co.uk/) motorcycle, a diesal powered sort of huge adventure type motorcycle. There was a particuarly good article in a magazine called "Moto Tech International", discussing the diesal engine in more detail than most other publications.

I would really like one for the day-to-day commute. Fuel economy of 100 mpg (110 mpg is realistically acheivable aswell apparently) means a tank range of over 500 miles from the 22.5 litre tank. The engine itself is made by dialmer benz (sp!), and is apparently in use on some smart cars. 49 bhp is not going to set anyones world on fire, but consider that it's made at only 2,750 rpm, and thats not bad. Max torque is the more interesting figure though - 88 lb ft at 1,800 rpm which is allegadly carried through to the rev-limiter, cutting in at 4250 rpm could mean a bike that would be great for town riding and easy long distance trips.

The bike encompasses a CVT transmission, much like a scooter. Not a bad thing, since the engine is turbo assisted. Also, CVT generally creates a smooth throttle response, as well as allowing the engine to sit on a big wodge of torque.

I certainly am interested and would love to have a go on one of these bikes. Common-rail diesal technology seems to be leading the way through the future of powertrain technolgoy; seat have enjoyed immense success in their diesal touring cars, and both Audi and Peugot have enjoyed success at le mans and in other sports-car races with their diesal-powered offerings.

Could it be the future for motorcycles aswell? For outright performance, petrol looks set to always win hands down. But for real-world applications, and in the face of ever-dwindling crude oil supplies and ever-increasing fuel prices, maybe larger manufacturers (Honda!!!! I'd like to think) will start thinking about diesal-powered motorcycles for use in touring and adventure motorcycles.

Plenty of food for thought, methinks

[fatneck]

I think we need one of the Jap big 4 to manufacture one, then it would see some more interest...?

[rictus01]

It's nothing new, been around for a long time, the Enfield robin is a bit of a classic, of more interest was the Kwak KLR650 based bike made for the US Army, something like a 1300 parallel twin making about 95hp or so if memory serves.

But in reality the downsides are far to great and give the slide over to the hobbyist market in bike sales I seriously doubt you'll see mass sales anytime soon.

Cheers Mark.

[Biker Biggles]

It would be good for towing the caravan.

[Alpinestarhero]

It's nothing new, been around for a long time, the Enfield robin is a bit of a classic, of more interest was the Kwak KLR650 based bike made for the US Army, something like a 1300 parallel twin making about 95hp or so if memory serves.

But in reality the downsides are far to great and give the slide over to the hobbyist market in bike sales I seriously doubt you'll see mass sales anytime soon.

Cheers Mark.

This is true; one of my friends was quite interested in the diesel enfield. However, it would seem previous attempts at diesl motorcycles have given the world smelly, heavy motorcycles. Here, with the much more modern technology avaliable for diesals (for instance, CDI), things look a little more promising

I agree that mass sales will not happen any time soon, and many motorcyclists hunger for the performance that often only a petrol engine provides. But for someone who wants to set off around the world, where diesal is more likley to be found at a suitable quality for use (i.e. diesal in almost any form...failing that, some cooking oil :lol: ), then maybe bikes like this would be more usefull

Biggles - should suit the goldwing clan then who like to tow trailers :rambo:

[andreis]

I think it's not such a bad idea. I remember bmw made a diesel that was far more performance oriented. I think the engined revved to 8.5 k or something like that (trouble with diesels is they don't really rev a lot). It'd be nice if they had somewhere around 100 bhp and revved a little harder than this one.. It would make long journeys more probable with the low fuel consumption. I can really see bmw venturing into something like this, more then honda perhaps. The big natural torque would mean that they could concentrate more on power.
Too bad the weight would increase a lot, as diesels tend to weigh in more than petrols, so then, they could really make a big tourer with one

[Alpinestarhero]

Andreis, do you happen to know why diesal engines are much heavier? The engine in the Track bike there weighs 45-50 kg' apparently (not sure how comprable that would be to a similar capacity engine though)

Is it because engine parts have to be beefier to withstand the much higher compression rations (18:1 in that diesal engine, cf around 10:1 for a typical motorcycle petrol engine)?

Maybe someone else can shed some light on that?

[fastdruid]

Useful for tank range and in the case of the Mil Spec bikes useful for having the same fuel as everything else but apart from that not much of an advantage.

I'd rather chew my arm off than ride a diesel.

Druid

[Philbo]

Excellent! We could make our own Diesel spills!;)

Was there not an old honda 125 or the like that used to do close to 200MPG?

[injury_ian]

500Kg wet!

"you ain't never picking that one up after a drop!" lol

[andreis]

I'm not sure why diesels end up heavier than petrols, but most likely it does have to do with the more complicated design and higher compression ratios (diesels compress the fuel/air mixture 'till it explodes and don't use spark plugs)


500Kg wet!

"you ain't never picking that one up after a drop!" lol

I think you misread the tech sheet. It says it weighs in at 225 kg dry, so I don't see how you got the 500kg wet

[yorkie_chris]

(diesels compress the fuel/air mixture 'till it explodes and don't use spark plugs)

That is completely wrong!

If you did that the engine would eat itself.
Diesels compress a fuel air mixture until very hot THEN squirt in fuel which instantly ignites.

The burning in a diesel engine is more akin to spraying an aerosol can over a lighter flame. It's a steady burn.

[ThEGr33k]

The engine itself is made by dialmer benz (sp!), and is apparently in use on some smart cars. 49 bhp is not going to set anyones world on fire, but consider that it's made at only 2,750 rpm, and thats not bad. Max torque is the more interesting figure though - 88 lb ft at 1,800 rpm which is allegadly carried through to the rev-limiter, cutting in at 4250 rpm could mean a bike that would be great for town riding and easy long distance trips.


Am I the only one to notice how obviously wrong the torque claim is? If it carried 88lbft of torque to the rev limiter max power would be at rev limiter. I would say that it drops off before 2750rpm and after that falls through the floor.

Ill admit though that fuel economy is nice... But why not get a little 125 where you can get even more? And it wont sound like a pile of ****e :rolleyes:

[ThEGr33k]

I'm not sure why diesels end up heavier than petrols, but most likely it does have to do with the more complicated design and higher compression ratios

Erm, the diesel bike is running lower compression than most modern petrol bikes. High pressures come from turbo not from the piston squash.

[yorkie_chris]

So the effective compression ratio is high. Makes no odds, still needs a strong block.

I'd be surprised if the normal compression ratio was less than 16 or so.

[andreis]

Sorry, my bad.. Must of heard the correct version at some point, then some odd memory distortion got in the way of it being retold correctly :drink:

[yorkie_chris]

Diesel fuel pump is almost exactly like distributor in a petrol engine, only it distributes fuel instead of spark.

Look up "detonation" in engines to see what happens if fuel is in there too soon.
http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/failed_piston.jpg

[ThEGr33k]

So the effective compression ratio is high. Makes no odds, still needs a strong block.

I'd be surprised if the normal compression ratio was less than 16 or so.

Sorry, I been thinking about starting a lot recently (I had a few issues, now sorted, HT lead issues!) and I thought about compression at start up lol.

[yorkie_chris]

Nah I wouldn't expect it to be a bother. Remember also that with high compression ratio and diesel (direct) injection you aren't relying on gas speed to mix your fuel charge up for you.

Heater plugs draw a bit of power but not much. Biggest problem I reckon is it is common rail. Too much electronic boswallox.


N.B look on the website. CR is 18:1

[Alpinestarhero]

That is completely wrong!

If you did that the engine would eat itself.
Diesels compress a fuel air mixture until very hot THEN squirt in fuel which instantly ignites.

The burning in a diesel engine is more akin to spraying an aerosol can over a lighter flame. It's a steady burn.

Essentially, he was right, but here you take the matter one more step advanced; from what I understand, there is a small "pilot" injection of fuel that occurs, which pre-heats the combustion chamber then further fuel is injected. From what I've read, there can be multiple (more than 2) injections per combustion cycle

I suppose the weight comes from having to be quite a strong engine. I assume aswell what unlike a normal motorcycle engine, the diesal engine used in the track will not need the valve clearances checking every 16,000 miles since the oil pressure will maintain the clearances required - thats a nice little bonus any day of the week!

I still like the idea, shun me if you all will!!!!!!

[ThEGr33k]

Nah I wouldn't expect it to be a bother. Remember also that with high compression ratio and diesel (direct) injection you aren't relying on gas speed to mix your fuel charge up for you.

Heater plugs draw a bit of power but not much. Biggest problem I reckon is it is common rail. Too much electronic boswallox.


Aye, what was wrong with the good old fashioned mechanical push in? :p Get that put on and it will run underwater... well with a big intake and exhaust pipe to clean air. :smt118

[yorkie_chris]

Exactly. See people off roading round here wondering why their new 4x4s are stuck in puddles with guys in 40 year old 2 1/4 diesel 2A's laughing at them.

[svtomo]

i think its interesting and very possible that there will be a few gs type touring endurance bikes using diesel engines in 15-20 years.
im sure by that time the wieght disadvantage of the engines wont be as great as they are now if the evolution of the engines is as fast as it has been lately.
i did a course on common rail and diesel technology earlier this year, most of which was way over my head but some of the things manufacturers are developing are really clever.

[yorkie_chris]

That KLR650 thing the US forces got looks to fit the bill pretty much spot on.

[svtomo]

Heater plugs draw a bit of power but not much. Biggest problem I reckon is it is common rail. Too much electronic boswallox.



common rail is much the same as petrol injection systems, one high pressure constant pump and the injectors opening relative to engine position, there isnt a lot to go wrong with them

[yorkie_chris]

Except the fact that you need something as powerful as a 10 year old desktop PC to make it work. Fine if you're taking the kids to school but you wouldn't want to take one across the Siberia.

[svtomo]

well no not if you could help it!lol
in theory though (well in my mind anyway) it would only need half the computing power of petrol, as injection and ignition is done at once.

[ThEGr33k]

In 15 yearsid be slightly suprised if hydrocarbons are the main source of propusion. Never know though... ha ha

[andreis]

Ok, if we're talking 15 years ahead, how about electric engines... Maybe not completely electric right now, as we don't have the tech for batteries, but I can see diesels/petrols running at constant rpms (at optimum efficiency that is) to charge batteries that would in turn power high payoff electric engines.. which do torque & hp's really nice (not to mention they're more efficient)
I mean, imagine 100ft/lb torque from 0 rmp.. that has to sound nice

[Alpinestarhero]

Except the fact that you need something as powerful as a 10 year old desktop PC to make it work. Fine if you're taking the kids to school but you wouldn't want to take one across the Siberia.

I'm sure many have ;)

Would CDI systems not be utilised on e.g. paris-dakar racers?

CDI has also shown to be reliable in many endurance races in audi's and peugots

Personally, I'm all for it.

Andreis - I think you have a spot-on idea there. It could be a stop-gap idea until we really can have everything fully electric Worked on a recent episode of top gear :lol: :rambo: It could work better than the current "hybrids"

I think hydrocarbon-dependant systems will still be around, there is alot of research into making fuels from e.g. syngas and algae.

I suppose if public transport were more convinient for everyone, we'd all be happy to use that instead of getting in our cars to go to work, then we'd be able to save on all fuel period

[yorkie_chris]

(not to mention they're more efficient)

Might want to check your figures on that one ;-)

With diesel-electric like a submarine or a train or something as you suggest then you're using a generator and motor instead of a gearbox.

I bet a gearbox is more efficient than that powertrain.

[_Stretchie_]

I like the idea of a diesel bike, might not be the best for stright lines but you'd just ride the torque for the corners, that's where the fun is anyway, it'd probably be like going from a four pot to a twin????

Maybe???

Anyone?

Exactly. See people off roading round here wondering why their new 4x4s are stuck in puddles with guys in 40 year old 2 1/4 diesel 2A's laughing at them.

We were out with a 1965 series yesterday, but it was a petrol, he had a few problems when we went through some puddles, nearly come to a standstill a few times.

[Alpinestarhero]

Stretchie, thats what I think! Also, how good would it be offroad? Combined with the CVT aswell.

Feel free to come join me over here in Diesal Corner

[andreis]

Might want to check your figures on that one ;-)

With diesel-electric like a submarine or a train or something as you suggest then you're using a generator and motor instead of a gearbox.

I bet a gearbox is more efficient than that powertrain.

I don't know about that... Seems to me that a gearbox is simply a component of the powertrain that is independent (in some sense) of the choice of where the power actually comes from. I think it can be also connected to an electric motor, though needing a smaller number of gears.

So the question of efficiency can be asked regarding just the power producing unit, considering that the way that power will be transmitted to the wheel can be the same on both motoring options.

An electric engine has an efficiency of about 90%. A variable rpm internal combustion engine is somewhere around 50% (from what I know, diesels are more efficient that petrols). Now, a diesel running at a constant rpm i.e. a generator is far more efficient than its variable rpm counterpart because, essentially, the rpm can be kept at the efficiency peak of the engine. Transmitting current from a generator to a capacitor is without any loss of power (probably somewhere around 99% of what the generator produces reaches the capacitor).
The only remaining problem would be losses within the capacitor itself, which I don't know how high they are, but I suspect not that high

And the electric engine has, regarding power transmission to the wheel a clear advantage: it's small enough to actually put inside the wheel, and so power from it is transmitted directly, resulting in far less power loss. I've seen this done with this : http://www.e-traction.com/TheWheel.htm
But this already brings to the table the gearbox, and I said I wouldn't do that

[andreis]

Hmm.. of course, the gearbox, if enough gears are available can be used to actually keep the engine within a certain interval of rpms.. But as real life shows, it's not used as such

[_Stretchie_]

Stretchie, thats what I think! Also, how good would it be offroad? Combined with the CVT aswell.

Feel free to come join me over here in Diesal Corner

I'll be there waiting for you as soon as I win the lotto, I'll buy one. Hell, if you don't like the look/style of it you could do some fettling and fit it to a VFR frame or something

; )

[andreis]

Btw, found this on wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain

[merlin427]

... engine. Transmitting current from a generator to a capacitor is without any loss of power (probably somewhere around 99% of what the generator produces reaches the capacitor).
The only remaining problem would be losses within the capacitor itself, which I don't know how high they are, but I suspect not that high


Perhaps they could use a Flux-Capacitor then you'd get home in no time - Or sooner! Of course you'd have to be able to get up to 86MPH in the first place.

[_Stretchie_]

Of course you'd have to be able to get up to 86MPH in the first place.

No point fitting one to an SV then eh...!


:smt043

[andreis]

Actually, I think it needed 88mph :D

Btw, there has been a "flux capacitor" proposal in 2008 by Dr. Leon Chua, in the sense that it operates as a function of the flux

[gettin2dizzy]

It'd be fun and games until you dropped the bugger and put a hole in the casing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atdFiRcbc3o
Sounds like a boat :lol:

[Alpinestarhero]

boat or no boat, I still want one.

I really want one

But at 15,000, maybe i'll sell a few other things to get the money up a bit and get an RC45

[PsychoCannon]

If you want an economical bike why not an LPG bike at 50p/gallon :)
No idea what perfomance you could be looking at for that though...

[_Stretchie_]

I asked that question to Grunty's brother in law about LPGing a bike up as that's what he does for a living

Ooft, LPG a bike?
The tanks are heavy as have to deal with pressure, also they are cylindrical in shape so not a nice tank shape and couldn't fit nicely over the top of the airbox

[yorkie_chris]

They don't have to be, but they would be heavy.

LPG could have brilliant performance though, it's got a very high octane rating and a large charge-cooling effect.

[svtomo]

hmmm lpg, there must be a lightwieght material that can stand the pressures somewhere, and if any1 finds it, well kerchinggg!

[_Stretchie_]

It has to be in a pressurised container. I picked up a 35-40 litre lpg tank over the weekend and even empty it was heavier than a full 17 litre bike tank

[yorkie_chris]

Also calorific value is less than petrol, so you need to carry more of it for the same range.

[merlin427]

Actually, I think it needed 88mph :D

Btw, there has been a "flux capacitor" proposal in 2008 by Dr. Leon Chua, in the sense that it operates as a function of the flux

Possibly, I remembered 86 but then my memory isn't what it used to be - Or at least I don't think it is!

[fastdruid]

I once did the maths and assuming you could fit the same size lpg tank[1] as the petrol tank (~20l) IIRC it would have a sub 40 mile range, and that tank is much heavier. All this on a bike that can do ~200ish from petrol.

Druid

[1] Actually I was looking at hydrogen for the zero emission TT but there are few figures for hydrogen so I started out with LPG. I came to the conclusion that it would be iffy as to if it would complete 1 lap at race pace.

[Alpinestarhero]

I've sent a few emails to the Track designer, he has very kindley responded each time. Nice bloke!

[eredgania]

I have an 89 suzuki katana that needs a cdi box.Im having some trouble finding an 88-96 part in my price range.Does anyone know if suzuki changed the ignition, or would a later cdi box fit the wiring?Thanks alot.

[Alpinestarhero]

I have an 89 suzuki katana that needs a cdi box.Im having some trouble finding an 88-96 part in my price range.Does anyone know if suzuki changed the ignition, or would a later cdi box fit the wiring?Thanks alot.

You're confusing your CDI with a diesal CDI - Common rail Diesal Injection

In anycase, start up your own thread, someone here might know something :)

[yorkie_chris]

I have an 89 suzuki katana that needs a cdi box.Im having some trouble finding an 88-96 part in my price range.Does anyone know if suzuki changed the ignition, or would a later cdi box fit the wiring?Thanks alot.

Ask on oldskoolsuzuki.info