Riding Style Question [Archive] - SV650.org

Amanda

11-12-09, 01:08 PM

fizzwheel

11-12-09, 01:15 PM

I am riding much faster than I use to on the Honda I'm finding I have to go from 70+ (never over 70 me 'lard) down to 30 in a short space of time.

And therein I imagine lies your problem.

Forward planning, observation, you shouldnt suddenyl find yourself ( unless its an emergency ) having to go from 70 to 30mph....

I've always gone down one gear at a time. But thats just my riding style. You might find a blip of the throttle on the down change smooth things out i.e to go from 6th to 5th like this

Gear = 6th

Clutch in, blip throttle, change down to 5th all in one fluid smooth motion

Clutch out and 5th gear engaged

Be smooth and progressive with the controls, i.e. dont go making sharp brake applications. The bike will respond much better that way and you'l find it stops, steers and accelerates better.

IMHO.

Dave20046

11-12-09, 01:17 PM

If I'm doing say 100mph in 5th I give one sharp brake, blip of the throttle and knock her into fourth. then pull the bike down!
I like using the engine braking, I find it invaluable.
Some people argue 'engines are for going, use the brakes to slow' hmm up to yourself what you believe I guess.

LK-SV

11-12-09, 01:19 PM

If I'm doing say 100mph in 5th I give one sharp brake, blip of the throttle and knock her into fourth. .

This is on a track, right ?? :rolleyes:

Dave20046

11-12-09, 01:19 PM

And therein I imagine lies your problem.

Ah, picked up on something I didn't, for drastic speed change. Braaake!, blip cluck (gear), brake, blip cluck & repeat. Change pants at next interval.

Dave20046

11-12-09, 01:20 PM

This is on a track, right ?? :rolleyes:
yeah but the same applies for all speeds (to me... you've gotta be careful who you take your advice off - especially on riding. adviseable to take advice off people you've ridden with and trust.)

ThEGr33k

11-12-09, 01:25 PM

The second option sounds the closest, though when you say brake then slow down using the gears its more for me "slow down on the gears, brake if I think I should".

Amanda

11-12-09, 01:26 PM

Ah, picked up on something I didn't, for drastic speed change. Braaake!, blip cluck (gear), brake, blip cluck & repeat. Change pants at next interval.

Ah! Was gonna say .... I guess my point was how can you brake and change gears?

I think thats what Im getting at. Surely you have to do the main brake first, then change gears.

Fizz, I didn't mean that I'm doing sudden braking just really asking where your braking fits in the gear changing. Maybe I am over analysing but want to get a grip with it now.

ThEGr33k

11-12-09, 01:29 PM

I've always gone down one gear at a time. But thats just my riding style. You might find a blip of the throttle on the down change smooth things out i.e to go from 6th to 5th like this

Gear = 6th

Clutch in, blip throttle, change down to 5th all in one fluid smooth motion

Clutch out and 5th gear engaged

Be smooth and progressive with the controls, i.e. dont go making sharp brake applications. The bike will respond much better that way and you'l find it stops, steers and accelerates better.

IMHO.

As Fizzy says. With the 125 the engine cant struggle as much as the SV's lump does to match engine speed to wheel speed as the 125's engine has less inertia.

So what you can do about this is blip the throttle. That is (as already mentioned above) Disengage Clutch blip & click down a gear (at about same time) engage clutch, but dont just dump the clutch, also dont take too long about it...

Hope that helps you Amanda. :cool:

Dave20046

11-12-09, 01:30 PM

Ah! Was gonna say .... I guess my point was how can you brake and change gears?

I think thats what Im getting at. Surely you have to do the main brake first, then change gears.

Fizz, I didn't mean that I'm doing sudden braking just really asking where your braking fits in the gear changing. Maybe I am over analysing but want to get a grip with it now.
for sudden brake; (lot of front touch the back - think in the text book this should be 80/20 split on a dry grippy day) then pop down the gears as and when I can, one at a time to make the most of combined engine and external braking.
^ that's what I do if that's what you meant

If it's braking to go for a corner or what ever then it's as a few posts above but fizz is right about looking ahead and not having to shed a lot of speed.

SUPERSTARDJ01

11-12-09, 01:31 PM

Neither, ease off the throttle using the engine braking then gradually slow down gently squeezing the front brake getting harder and harder but not so hard I fly off, then apply the back brake while changing gear.

ThEGr33k

11-12-09, 01:32 PM

Ah! Was gonna say .... I guess my point was how can you brake and change gears?

I think thats what Im getting at. Surely you have to do the main brake first, then change gears.

Fizz, I didn't mean that I'm doing sudden braking just really asking where your braking fits in the gear changing. Maybe I am over analysing but want to get a grip with it now.

As I say, dont brake, use the engine braking. If its a road you know there is no reason you cant do this. To be honest there is very little difference if im braking or not, Ill be braking and still using the engine braking at the same time. I suppose this maybe comes with experience?

Wideboy

11-12-09, 01:33 PM

depends, im usually slapping down the gear box as im tryin to stop before i hit something, im towns ect i keep the revs high so you barely use the brakes plus over run sounds awesome

if just riding normally i use the gearbox to slow down, if im in a hoon im heavy on the brakes

Amanda

11-12-09, 01:37 PM

Amanda

11-12-09, 01:39 PM

Dave20046

11-12-09, 01:40 PM

Hmm great advice and discussion guys thanks.

I already go through the gears but I guess I need to practice blip'in in the gear change otherwise like I said before it just feels jerky when you let out the clutch in the lower gear.

Cheers for the help
Yeah it comes after a bit the idea is to blip the throttle so your revs match with what they'll be going upto when you've dropped the gear so it's a lot smoother. Do be careful with it, don't go out there now and pop down to first from 50mph - the skidmarks along the road will be longer than in your undies :smt119

fizzwheel

11-12-09, 01:40 PM

Fizz, I didn't mean that I'm doing sudden braking just really asking where your braking fits in the gear changing. Maybe I am over analysing but want to get a grip with it now.

This is what I do :

I brake initially then as I begin to slow I'll start to run down through the gears using the "blip" technique I described above.

What I'm looking to do is to get into a gear that has my engine in the right place in the RPM range to cleanly and swiftly accelerate the bike away from the corner / roundabout once I've negotiated it safely.

On the SV I used to find a gear that kept the engine at 5000rpm till I was ready to accelerate again worked well. It does depend on how you feel comfortable braking. If you like using the gears to slow down then do that, if you like using the brakes to slow down then do that. Theres no hard of fast rule to this, the only rule is to get slowed down enough to get around the corner you are about to negotiate.

Personally I find that the brakes will always slow me faster than the gears alone will...

Remember brake in a straight line before corner entry, get all your slowing down and gear changing down done before you turn the bike for the corner or roundabout. Once you have the bike turning if you have judged everything right you should not need to brake or change gear again until you have applied the throttle on corner exit.

IMHO

ArtyLady

11-12-09, 01:42 PM

All totally dependant on invidual conditions and hazzards - I tend to use the IPSGA system - so I'll take in all the info, get into the optimum position (allowing for all hazzards), slow using either gears or brakes (again dependant on the conditions/situation), then ensure I'm in the correct gear to negotiate the hazzard (bend/roundabout/overtake etc) - should all flow smoothly :) - oh and for down changes I am a converted blipper!

Dave20046

11-12-09, 01:44 PM

Remember brake in a straight line before corner entry, get all your slowing down and gear changing down done before you turn the bike for the corner or roundabout. Once you have the bike turning if you have judged everything right you should not need to brake or change gear again until you have applied the throttle on corner exit.

IMHO
critical imo, good post.

Holdup

11-12-09, 01:45 PM

Because its my riding style and depending what speed im doing / how clear the road is / weather conditions i tend to brake late, bang down as many gears as need be then blat it whilst hanging off like a loon.

If im behind a car then i downshift one at a time whilst gently braking matching the cars speed and not as to crash into them, but generaly i dont like shifting down one at a time, dont know why just doesnt feel right to me

Amanda

11-12-09, 01:55 PM

critical imo, good post.

Yeah, great experience when you get it wrong!!!

First time on the other halfs Gixer, thought process went like this.....

'ooo this is fast, innit

'hmmm maybe a bit too fast

'better slow down for the corner now

'maybe thats still too fast, bit more brake

'Arrrgghhhh, why is the bike still upright,hedge looks close, must steer, Oh yeah try getting off the brake numbnuts!!!!! phew bugg4r me

:roll:

wattyfred89

11-12-09, 01:57 PM

roll off the thottle, at about 5-6th rpm you can drop a gear, with blipping the throttle (the thought of not blipping the throttle makes me cringe lol) then whilst doing this brake at the same time ( takes practice)

as said above brake in straight line , then whilst taking the corner have a gear with decent amount of rev's so if you are going too fast there is no need to brake, just roll back the throttle. (safer)

ThEGr33k

11-12-09, 01:59 PM

dizzyblonde

11-12-09, 03:15 PM

I don't use the brakes in this situation, as I've already observed said roundabout.

Engine braking and downshifting, with a bit of that there blipping stuff. I make the SV do the work, and my pads last forever!

Gradually roll to a controlled stop, without even touching the brake til I get to the line, or indeed pass over it as I get straight on the bout.

Make sense? TBH, just go and practise.

metalangel

11-12-09, 03:42 PM

Depends on what I'm coming up on and the speed I'm going. I don't see any harm in staying in whatever gear I'm in until I'm almost at idle revs before clutching in and changing down, as it means I'm getting full use of the brakes and not faffing with individual downshifts while also trying to stop.

But if I'm not trying to stop but might need to, engine braking and then change into an appropriate gear when the traffic in front starts moving/lights go green.

Bibio

11-12-09, 04:20 PM

whatever you do make it smoooooth (smoothness is less tiring) if your head is constantly doing the 'noddy dog' then your riding wrong. your riding style should also be dictated by conditions.

Spiderman

11-12-09, 04:26 PM

If i'm in a rush, late for something and need to keep my average speed up then i do option 1.

If not then its forward planning, engine breaking and suitable gears.

Blipping when going down thru the gears becomes second nature after a while and its very usefull i find in this type of weather. Dont like feeling the bike squirm under me on cold greasy roads and the throttle blip stops that.

Fizzy Fish

11-12-09, 04:35 PM

I tend to scrub off the speed via advanced planning and downchanges TBH.

I only really use the brakes if I'm in hooning mood, and even then braking happens after some of the speed has already been scrubbed off via the above. If I'm braking a lot, the gearchanging usually comes alongside that. Sometimes I'll drop down 2 gears at a time, but not more that that.

Vindaloo

11-12-09, 04:51 PM

Using brakes or gears to slow down is for girls. I use walls and ditches. Far more effective and saves £££s on replacing worn brakes, too.

Adrian

ophic

11-12-09, 05:04 PM

One small piece of advice if you're used to blipping.

If your engine cuts out, use the brakes. Mine did once. I pulled over and gently slowed down changing down the gears... or that was the attempt. In fact I broke traction on the rear with every downshift. Nice straight road, fortunately.

barwel1992

11-12-09, 05:06 PM

i dont use the brakes not on the sv any way, (apart from if i need to) i just let off the throttle and cruse down to the speed limit kicking down once i get to about 3000rpm

orose

11-12-09, 05:10 PM

I'm another subscriber to the roadcraft systematic approach, although it has recently been suggested to me that the order of the steps in the system is important - speed and position should be adjusted before selecting the correct gear to allow you to accelerate after clearing the hazard. I don't do that at the moment though, preferring to shed gears alongside using the brakes.

I think the issue you're having might just be in the blip-downshift technique, as anything that has a reasonable amount of power can give you problems if you get a mismatch between wheel speed and engine speed.

-Ralph-

11-12-09, 05:18 PM

This seems like a lot of talk for not a big problem?

Maybe I'm not understanding the question.

IMO either option is fine and depends on how quickly you are scrubbing off speed.

If you are braking hard enough that you are dropping from 5th gear speed to 2nd gear speed faster than you can disengage and re-engage the clutch between each gear, then I see no problem in disengaging, block changing down 3 gears at once then re-engaging to match the right engine speed to the road speed. I do it regularly.

If you've left yourself more time and distance to slow down, then change down one gear at a time, use some engine braking, blip the throttle if you find that works for you, but you don't have to, the clutch will do it's job just the same.

I only blip when I'm feeling in the mood to do so, or when I have a pillion to smooth out the down change and prevent banging of helmets.

Obviously if your block changing you need to know your bike revs vs ratios vs speed, well enough to match engine speed to road speed so you don't lock the rear wheel when you re-engage the clutch, but that should become automatic with mileage.

barwel1992

11-12-09, 05:21 PM

i find that blipping the throttle is great for stopping the back from locking when changing down fast

Ps i couldn't resist the urge not to click

-Ralph-

11-12-09, 05:25 PM

i find that blipping the throttle is great for stopping the back from locking when changing down fast

Ps i couldn't resist the urge not to click

If I'm slowing down that quick I use the brakes and just match gears to road speed, I find that much more controlled and keeps the bike more settled on it's suspension, but then I'm a fat b*****d.

darylB

11-12-09, 05:40 PM

Not using brakes to slow down is not advised by the I A M senior examiner who came to our group to answer any questions we had about what he expected from our associates, main reason is that it's always a good idea to let people following know that you are slowing down. So using a combination of gear changes and brakes is the safest way to go, especially when riding a twin such as the sv which has far more engine braking than an inline four.

Daryl.

MattCollins

11-12-09, 05:46 PM

I am a late shifter who allows the revs to drop right off initially shifting in a block to take the right gear for whatever when I need it.

dizzyblonde

11-12-09, 06:03 PM

Not using brakes to slow down is not advised by the I A M senior examiner main reason is that it's always a good idea to let people following know that you are slowing down..

I spent a four hundred mile trip with an IAM person not so long ago. I reckon if there was owt wrong with my technique of not using brakes much, would have been picked up on...if indeed it is not advised to do so. BUT I ride a vtwin so engine braking use is second nature.

As for letting people know you are braking, if your levers and brakes are good, you can flicker them without even making a difference to actual braking....I only do this when some pillock is right up my backside BTW

sinbad

11-12-09, 06:03 PM

People are offering up ways to do it, and they all will work, but really it depends on what you want to do.

If you want to ride fast you will be braking hard for corners. You'll pull the brakes on smoothly but firmly and go down the gears, rev-matching, with the brakes still applied, then ease off them before you turn or as you turn.

You can kid yourself that just smoothly using engine braking is riding fast, or braking to the required speed and then kicking down the gears before you turn is riding fast, but it's not :)

Thankfully we don't all want to much less have to, much less are able to, ride truly fast. And those that do don't ride fast all the time.

Do it in whichever way gives you the most confidence.

TheOnlyNemesis

11-12-09, 06:06 PM

And therein I imagine lies your problem.

Forward planning, observation, you shouldnt suddenyl find yourself ( unless its an emergency ) having to go from 70 to 30mph....

I've always gone down one gear at a time. But thats just my riding style. You might find a blip of the throttle on the down change smooth things out i.e to go from 6th to 5th like this

Gear = 6th

Clutch in, blip throttle, change down to 5th all in one fluid smooth motion

Clutch out and 5th gear engaged

Be smooth and progressive with the controls, i.e. dont go making sharp brake applications. The bike will respond much better that way and you'l find it stops, steers and accelerates better.

IMHO.

i bin trying to learn to blip, keep letting the clutch out to early and jerking, lol

Amanda

11-12-09, 06:46 PM

Sooooo ...Blipping is:

Clutch In

Little pull on the throttle while down shifting

Clutch Out

????

Will try tonight if I take the bike!

TheOnlyNemesis

11-12-09, 06:47 PM

Sooooo ...Blipping is:

Clutch In

Little pull on the throttle while down shifting

Clutch Out

????

Will try tonight if I take the bike!

sounds easier than i found it to be

LK-SV

11-12-09, 07:06 PM

Gears to go - brakes to slow ....

I drop through the gears individually, and there are times I'lll use mostly engine braking ...but really I let the revs fall to about 3,000 revs before dropping another gear ...

Using engine braking sounds great - but for me it doesn't feel that sympathetic (particually to the chain), and it can often be too harsh if at high revs ...

Balancing the front and rear brakes dependant on weather conditions (and engine braking if needed) gives you the greatest level of control ...

Let's be honest - Using engine braking only is more about the noise than anything else ...

yorkie_chris

11-12-09, 07:13 PM

Up to hazard, brake and downshift. Brake loads the front wheel up so you can turn properly. Downshift to keep revs in optimum band somewhere north of 7k. Off brakes and onto a neutral throttle as you turn in, keep neutral throttle until you can see exit and open throttle to power out. Repeat.

Alpinestarhero

11-12-09, 07:17 PM

Amanda, perfectly good question to ask. The blipping throttle method is a good one to learn for smooth downshifting, especially when riding at mid-high RPM's (avoids rear-wheel locking or sliding, and also makes life better for the clutch!). Do practise it, it might take a while to do it, maybe a good way is to find a nice straight quiet road and practise blipping down from third gear to second gear, just rolling off the throttle first then trying with brakes.

You might find it hard to blip the throttle with four fingers on the brake lever; for some reason, recently I have been using the last three fingers (not my index finger at all) when braking, which allows me to blip well. Before I would use two fingers to brake which enabled me to blip. Try differant styles and see which one you find comfortable :)

I agree with fizz whole-heatedly about being progressive with the controls. You never should have to just wack on the brakes, never just pin the throttle open, never just drop the clutch; everything should be a smooth and progressive application of force :)

yorkie_chris

11-12-09, 07:18 PM

But note smooth and progressive =/= slow.

Alpinestarhero

11-12-09, 07:19 PM

But note smooth and progressive =/= slow.

usually it should mean you can go pretty fast :cool:

timwilky

11-12-09, 07:28 PM

firstly with a V twin too much messing with gears when trying to loose speed is likely to lock up your back wheel at just the moment you need it to be turning.

So planning, ideally you should only need to roll off the throttle and blip as you shift to have a progressive speed reduction as you smoothly decrease and hardly need any brakes.

However, should you need to grab a handful. Do it.

Apply front brake hard, then back and loose the speed you you need controlling the rate and change gear progressively as you need too. Gear is very much secondary to brakes, steering, head engaged

yorkie_chris

11-12-09, 07:30 PM

Front brake progressively then hard is important bit. If you snatch the front brake, you will be tarmac surfing.

Edit: This is because tyre's need weight on them before they will grip, applying the brake progressively puts weight on the tyre, meaning it will grip, not lock.

fastdruid

11-12-09, 08:01 PM

Right, this is either gonna sound like a total newbie question or a highly intelligent enquiry. You decide!!!

Roundabouts and sharp corners, but mainly roundabouts ........

Scenario: You've opened her open a straight and are in top gear when approaching a roundabout. You need to get down to a comfortable speed to follow it through Do you .....

a. Mainly sharp brake and kick the gears down in one go to match your new speed. i.e. 6th down to 3rd?

b.Sharp brake then down shifting using the gears to slow the bike

The reason I ask is that on the Honda CBR I used to brake then down shift through each gear which slowed the bike. The SV has alot more grunt and doesn't seem to like gear changing as much, seems to be much more jerky when releasing the clutch. Add to this the fact that I am riding much faster than I use to on the Honda I'm finding I have to go from 70+ (never over 70 me 'lard) down to 30 in a short space of time.

Ideas and thoughts welcome. Hold the insults!!!!!

Neither option works for me, if I was in top gear after opening her up on a straight I'd be doing ~150mph so it would be braking hard while going down through the gears. Not obviously that I would be doing such a thing in rl but in a theoretical sense. :)

If otoh I was crusing in top I would change down until the revs were in the fun zone, then brake and change down accordingly and as needed to keep the revs up[1].

Druid

[1] I keep them higher on the 4's than the 2's.

merlin427

11-12-09, 09:32 PM

Why is there no option for braking and changing down simultaneously? When I'm braking in a planned rather than an E-stop situation I would be dropping gears as the speed dictates with the clutch let out between individual gears. Meeting the requirement to be in the correct gear for road speed at all times which the Highway Code required when I passed my tests. Obviously I'd modulate the brakes (yes the rear brake does work on a bike) as more engine braking was available.
I may be tempted 'block shift' if seriously track riding but don't see the point on the road.

ArtyLady

11-12-09, 09:48 PM

...
I may be tempted 'block shift' if seriously track riding but don't see the point on the road.

Well I presume it could increase the life of your clutch/clutch cable? and would help avoid hand fatigue? If I've not ridden for a while I change up without the clutch too to stop my hand getting sore.

bm1957

11-12-09, 11:02 PM

Amanda

12-12-09, 12:42 AM

[QUOTE=merlin427;2122106]Why is there no option for braking and changing down simultaneously? [QUOTE]

.....cos it was a gear changing question. There was an understanding that you knew I would mean you would continue to brake if it warrants it.

I was trying to keep the poll short and to the point as per instructions ;)

punyXpress

12-12-09, 11:58 AM

Why blip the throttle at all?
Keep it SLIGHTLY open & you can change down as the road speed falls to meet the revs you have on for the next lower gear.

punyXpress

12-12-09, 12:00 PM

ophic

12-12-09, 12:06 PM

Why blip the throttle at all?
Keep it SLIGHTLY open & you can change down as the road speed falls to meet the revs you have on for the next lower gear.
cos if you're on the brakes, slowing down, you don't want the throttle open.

yorkie_chris

12-12-09, 12:10 PM

That can have an advantage if you want to kill the engine braking, but anyone who knew that would not ask this question ;-)

merlin427

12-12-09, 08:31 PM

Well I presume it could increase the life of your clutch/clutch cable? and would help avoid hand fatigue? If I've not ridden for a while I change up without the clutch too to stop my hand getting sore.

But ir you're that cost concious why not slow right down look/think ahead and never use the brakes ('cos they cost money, minimise tyre wear AND the clutch cable) and of course only accelerate slowly to minimise engine wear and fuel use.

Why only after a lay off? I only ever use the clutch when changing up if I'm going slowly and changing from first to second.

MattCollins

12-12-09, 08:37 PM

merlin427

12-12-09, 08:38 PM

[QUOTE=Amanda;2122209][QUOTE=merlin427;2122106]Why is there no option for braking and changing down simultaneously?

You're right of course, Amanda but blokes NEVER read instructions!

In fact I did read the instructions. The first indicates that all the gear changing is done in one go (clutch in tap-tap-tap 'til you get the required gear, clutch out) after braking. The second specifies brake THEN change gear. The third was a frivolity (we all slow down at some time), so much for trying to keep the poll as short as possible.

merlin427

12-12-09, 08:49 PM

What helped me learn the 'blip' technique was this bit of advice:

1. Apply brake (smooth, getting firmer) using 1st and 2nd fingers only (and maybe 3rd).
2. Pull clutch.
3. Drop 1 gear. At the same time, having 2 (or 1) fingers off the brake allows you to 'roll' your palm on the throttle whilst keeping a firm grip on the brake lever. (This is the 'blip').
4. Just as the revs start to drop back down smoothly release the clutch.
5. As soon as the clutch is back out, repeat! (At no point do you ease up on the brake).

Becomes 2nd nature in next to no time. I guess proper technique would involve the rear brake at some point, I tend only to use mine for slow speed maneuvering.

Why only 2 (possibly 3) fingers on the brake?
I've never understood that habit, I know some bikes have very strong brakes (but the SV doesn't - or at least my curvy didn't) but even so the braking power is not governed by the amount of fingers but by the amount of force each transmits. What happens if you unexpectedly need to slow down quicker than originally intended and need more power than 2 fingers can provide? Now you've got to hope for the best or try and get more fingers to the lever. Worse still what about if your lever comes back so far it pinches your remaining fingers (I've read many post regarding spongy brakes on here), now you can't even apply the pressure available with the 2 fingers.
I always blip (or at least raise the RPM) on the down-change but do it using my thumb and the area of my hand between it and my index finger.
Oh, and what about your foot?

MattCollins

12-12-09, 08:50 PM

Why only after a lay off?

I would bet that lady sized hands with not a lot of reach or strength to start with and a drop in conditioning during a lay off might have something to do with it.

merlin427

12-12-09, 08:52 PM

It would be better to at least use half clutch pull to avoid banging the gearbox around.

Cheers
I sometimes use a half (or even full) clutch pull if I'm not changing at the optimum RPM (moving in traffic for instance) as the 'box does not respond too well in those circumstances, but normal riding I never feel the need for it and the 'box does not bang, and I've never had a bike where it did.

merlin427

12-12-09, 08:55 PM

I would bet that lady sized hands with not a lot of reach or strength to start with and a drop in conditioning during a lay off might have something to do with it.

I understand that but my question was more aimed at why not do it all the time. If it works after a lay off when all your other riding skills (such as judging gear change RPM and co-ordinating foot and throttle hand) are rusty why wont it work all the time. If anything I would be more inclined to use the clutch after a lay off.

MattCollins

12-12-09, 08:57 PM

Why only 2 (possibly 3) fingers on the brake?

For me, it is so that there is always a positive grip on the hand grip with one or two fingers.

MattCollins

12-12-09, 09:11 PM

I sometimes use a half (or even full) clutch pull if I'm not changing at the optimum RPM (moving in traffic for instance) as the 'box does not respond too well in those circumstances, but normal riding I never feel the need for it and the 'box does not bang, and I've never had a bike where it did.

The engine has quite a bit of inertia and on a clutch-less shift you are asking it to change rpm very quickly. The loads (more importantly the rate that the load is applied) are fed back through the entire drive train. You may not hear or feel it, but with any decent rpm on board it is definitely happening. The cush drive will absorb a fair bit of it. At low rpm it is not so significant due to much smaller rpm changes and far less energy.
Like blipping on the down shift, it is simply kinder to the bike.

Amanda

12-12-09, 09:12 PM

Update!

After the Southern Shady drinking meet last night where I was the only one that took the bike I made a concerted effort to try blipping it. With a few attempts of getting the blip to early and then too much, I managed to get it absolutely spot on with an approach to a roundabout near home.

I can honestly say it made the world of difference to the riding. Usually I would brake quite alot and downshift in low revs to try and smooth it out. However when I was blipping it I found that I was able to slow the bike by downshifting and only used the brake to take the initial edge off the speed. Much smoother and easier.

Need more practice but I definately understand the technique now

MattCollins

12-12-09, 09:17 PM

Well done! :)

Lozzo

12-12-09, 09:21 PM

I've been doing it for 30 years and I don't have a bloody clue. I just ride instinctively without wasting time on thinking about how I do it.

MattCollins

12-12-09, 09:26 PM

I've been doing it for 30 years and I don't have a bloody clue. I just ride instinctively without wasting time on thinking about how I do it.

Haha... I have to think about to be able to write it down.

Amanda

12-12-09, 09:36 PM

I've been doing it for 30 years

God you must be really old then??? :p:p:p

ArtyLady

12-12-09, 09:44 PM

But ir you're that cost concious why not slow right down look/think ahead and never use the brakes ('cos they cost money, minimise tyre wear AND the clutch cable) and of course only accelerate slowly to minimise engine wear and fuel use.

Why only after a lay off? I only ever use the clutch when changing up if I'm going slowly and changing from first to second.

Thank you I'm quite happy with my 10k miles per set of tyres :thumbsup: I'm not that cost concious it was just a comment - I make progress when I ride and my forward obs are very good according to my observer - cost doesn't come into it for me - I was replying to someone elses comment.

Well for a lady of my mature years I think I do quite well to ride all year round - I don't only do clutchless changes after a layoff - I do them all the time :confused: (layoffs for me are only a few weeks at the most)

It would be better to at least use half clutch pull to avoid banging the gearbox around.

Cheers

Not if you get it just right - slips in quite easily (ooerr missus!)

ArtyLady

12-12-09, 09:46 PM

God you must be really old then??? :p:p:p

PMSL!! :thumbsup:

Lozzo

12-12-09, 09:49 PM

God you must be really old then??? :p:p:p

I thought you were the OAP around here?

sunshine

12-12-09, 09:49 PM

Why only 2 (possibly 3) fingers on the brake?
I've never understood that habit, I know some bikes have very strong brakes (but the SV doesn't - or at least my curvy didn't) but even so the braking power is not governed by the amount of fingers but by the amount of force each transmits. What happens if you unexpectedly need to slow down quicker than originally intended and need more power than 2 fingers can provide? Now you've got to hope for the best or try and get more fingers to the lever. Worse still what about if your lever comes back so far it pinches your remaining fingers (I've read many post regarding spongy brakes on here), now you can't even apply the pressure available with the 2 fingers.
I always blip (or at least raise the RPM) on the down-change but do it using my thumb and the area of my hand between it and my index finger.
Oh, and what about your foot?

Are you saying your unable to lock the wheel with only 2 fingers on the brake lever, and the rear brake is the useless one the front seems good to me, but then what do i know i have ridden motocross bikes mainly.

MattCollins

12-12-09, 09:51 PM

Not if you get it just right - slips in quite easily (ooerr missus!)

Rudy!

Amanda

12-12-09, 09:52 PM

I thought you were the OAP around here?

:D Mine is affectionately used by those young whipper snappers.

With 30 years riding you have a few years on me mate!! lol

sinbad

12-12-09, 09:55 PM

Why only 2 (possibly 3) fingers on the brake?
I've never understood that habit, I know some bikes have very strong brakes (but the SV doesn't - or at least my curvy didn't) but even so the braking power is not governed by the amount of fingers but by the amount of force each transmits. What happens if you unexpectedly need to slow down quicker than originally intended and need more power than 2 fingers can provide? Now you've got to hope for the best or try and get more fingers to the lever. Worse still what about if your lever comes back so far it pinches your remaining fingers (I've read many post regarding spongy brakes on here), now you can't even apply the pressure available with the 2 fingers.
I always blip (or at least raise the RPM) on the down-change but do it using my thumb and the area of my hand between it and my index finger.
Oh, and what about your foot?

I can easily lock the front wheel on my 650 with standard brakes with just 2 fingers. Broken brakes are a different issue entirely- do you hand signal whenever you turn, just in case your indicator isn't working? No, you know your equipment.

The best part about only using 2 fingers is that you can ride along through town with your fingers already on the lever, reducing reaction time significantly, whilst still having complete and full throttle control.
Can you?

fizzwheel

12-12-09, 10:05 PM

I can honestly say it made the world of difference to the riding.

Nice one, keep working on it to perfect the blip, it does take a little while to get it right, but it really is worth it once you have the technique mastered

:cool:

ophic

12-12-09, 10:55 PM

I can easily lock the front wheel on my 650 with standard brakes with just 2 fingers. Broken brakes are a different issue entirely- do you hand signal whenever you turn, just in case your indicator isn't working? No, you know your equipment.

The best part about only using 2 fingers is that you can ride along through town with your fingers already on the lever, reducing reaction time significantly, whilst still having complete and full throttle control.
Can you?
Spot on. When I'm on the cruiser I have to use 3 fingers, cos its a heavy bike with only a single front disc, but on the SV, 2 is all I ever need.

5hort5

12-12-09, 11:25 PM

If a child runs into the road I'll brake otherwise the engine and gears take care of it, I own an SV for ****s sake not a 4 pot

zsv650

12-12-09, 11:29 PM

can't say i've ever bothered too check how i'm slowing down just do it automatic.

Lozzo

13-12-09, 01:10 AM

:D Mine is affectionately used by those young whipper snappers.

With 30 years riding you have a few years on me mate!! lol

47 last birthday

Lozzo

13-12-09, 01:11 AM

If a child runs into the road I'll brake otherwise the engine and gears take care of it, I own an SV for ****s sake not a 4 pot

Brakes are there to be used for slowing and stopping, gearboxes are for adjusting the revs to suit the road speed/conditions

merlin427

13-12-09, 09:50 AM

Are you saying your unable to lock the wheel with only 2 fingers on the brake lever, and the rear brake is the useless one the front seems good to me, but then what do i know i have ridden motocross bikes mainly.

I didn't say the rear brake was useless, just the opposite.

Braking is not about locking the wheels, if fact it's more about not locking them I suppose. I'ts actually very easy to lock the front wheel with very little power, just grab a hadfull (or even 2 fingers full) when there is not much weight on it! I noticed one response extolled the virtues of 2 finger braking becasue it lets you keep 2 fingers on the lever all the time so you can get on the brakes early in town, but is that a good thing? You are far better using the (usually unused) rear brake (and on a V twin the throttle) to initiate braking and get onto the front once the weight has transferred even in an E stop situation. Unless the brakes have improved out of all proportion since the curvy I think you're doing well to lock the front when it's been firmly planted into grippy tarmac (assuming a decent tyre) with only 2 fingers.

At the end of the day if you have tried bot methods and have worked out that for your style 2 fingers is best I'm not trying to convince you otherwise but I am concious that some visitors here are in thier early days of riding and it may be helpful to understand that there are alternatives which may suit them. Also, although this site is dedicated to the SV most people will move onto (and possibly already ride) other bike types which may work better with other techniques due to aspects such as less engine braking.
In my case some reasons are physical and some historical. I find braking more controlled when the lever is closer to the bars (fingers closed rather than open) so even though my brakes are in good nick the lever can come close to the bars, i also find control easier when using less power which is possible with 4 fingers working at 50% rather than 2 at 100%. My early bikes were older technology and older physically (I'm not even going to put a figure on it!) so the brakes never had enough power even if you used both hands, they were also 2 strokes so I guess I didn't learn much about engine braking in my formative years.

Alpinestarhero

13-12-09, 10:12 AM

I use the rear brake alot, mainly at speeds below 15 mph. Keeps my throttle hand free to operate just the throttle and do some of that niiiiccceee slow control stuff

You shouldnt be able to lock the brakes if you brake correctly. As YC said earlier on, if you grab a handfull, the front will lock, its not hard (I almost managed it the other day :smt009). But if you are progressive, then you will get good effective braking. Its still possible to lock the brakes though, so you have to practise and find the limits

ophic

13-12-09, 11:53 AM

You shouldnt be able to lock the brakes if you brake correctly.
I'm assuming that's just worded badly.

You should be able to avoid locking the brakes if you brake correctly.

You should be able to lock the brakes, if you want to (except for ABS bikes).

-Ralph-

13-12-09, 12:02 PM

I'm assuming that's just worded badly.

You shouldnt be able to lock the brakes if you brake correctly...

...Its still possible to lock the brakes though

Looks like it did just come out wrong.

sinbad

13-12-09, 01:29 PM

I noticed one response extolled the virtues of 2 finger braking becasue it lets you keep 2 fingers on the lever all the time so you can get on the brakes early in town, but is that a good thing? You are far better using the (usually unused) rear brake (and on a V twin the throttle) to initiate braking and get onto the front once the weight has transferred even in an E stop situation.

Well since you ask, imo it is a good thing to be able to react immediately to something happening in front of you rather than not, every millisecond counts. I obviously won't be yanking on it really hard straight away, but in the time it takes you to move your four fingers to the front brake lever I've already applied it and am stopping the bike. I'll be pressing the rear too of course, but no e-stop instruction will advise solid application of the rear before you even touch the front.

Certainly if you can't apply enough brake pressure with 2 fingers you shouldn't just use 2.

Your first post said you don't understand why some people use 2 fingers on the brake, but if you can control the lever properly with 2 fingers it doesn't make much sense to use 4 imo.

yorkie_chris

13-12-09, 02:47 PM

Unless the brakes have improved out of all proportion since the curvy I think you're doing well to lock the front when it's been firmly planted into grippy tarmac (assuming a decent tyre) with only 2 fingers.

When it is grippy and the wheel is weighted the rear wheel will lift FAR before a slide.

fastdruid

13-12-09, 04:52 PM

When it is grippy and the wheel is weighted the rear wheel will lift FAR before a slide.

Depends on the bike. :-)

My VFR has never lifted the rear but has slid the front on many an occasion.

Druid

ophic

13-12-09, 05:04 PM

Depends on the bike. :-)
I think my cruiser would struggle to lift the rear as well, although it probably doesn't come under YC's description of "bike".

yorkie_chris

13-12-09, 05:07 PM

Always one pedantic bugger isn't there!

OK, on an SV, upright, with grip, the bike will do a stoppie before the wheel locks. I bet your VFR will too unless you've got some prehistoric rubber on.

And no, I can't think why you'd want a tractor to do a stoppie, the weight balance needed to do that would interfere with traction when ploughing.

Brakes are there to be used for slowing and stopping, gearboxes are for adjusting the revs to suit the road speed/conditions

Aye but try braking into a corner with stock SV forks, the lack of rebound damping nearly sticks the top yoke up your nose!

joshmac

13-12-09, 05:08 PM

Only just seen this thread. I guess option 2 best describes how I would do it, except I try to keep braking the whole time while going down the gears one at a time, blipping with my thumb as I do it. It's all personal preference though to be honest.

I haven't read the thread in its entirety so could well have missed if it's been sorted

ophic

13-12-09, 05:09 PM

Always one pedantic bugger isn't there!
I think you'll find there's 2 :cool:

thedonal

13-12-09, 05:21 PM

I think that that it really depends on the situation when braking and it's about planning too- if you're riding at the right speed for the road, you should be in the right gear too, which will assist braking anyway- if you're riding at 30mph in 4th, for example, then you've got to bang the gears down before you brake. If you're riding at 30mph in 2nd, then no need to bother.

If I'm riding in a sprited or semi spirited fashion, I'll be at 7000rpm+. The engine braking will therefore assist slowing down anyway, without having to bang down gears too much. I might brake hard and bang down 2 gears, then let the engine work again- it's about getting to know where dropping a gear will leave you on the rev counter.

I think the only time you need to bang down several gears is when you have to do emergency braking for any reason- ie either the car has slowed down for no apparent reason, an incident has occured or you're generally not leaving enough space to accomodate reasonable braking distances.

The above might sound a bit high horse- it's not really meant to. I guess it's just examining the possibilities and occurrences from my mistakes and having to brake hard. But experience and planning ahead is the main thing. If you don't know the road, then fast may not be the ideal way. That said, if it's a nice, warm, traffic free day- I like to ride hard and brake hard approacing roundabouts and stuff too- but then I find I don't leave enough space to set myself up for the roundabout itself (balance, throttle etc).

fastdruid

13-12-09, 05:49 PM

Always one pedantic bugger isn't there!

OK, on an SV, upright, with grip, the bike will do a stoppie before the wheel locks. I bet your VFR will too unless you've got some prehistoric rubber on.

Nope, something like a 46/54 front/rear balance with anti-dive forks and BT45's. Wheelie's like a bastid, does not stoppie. It *may* do with better suspension but as it stands the front patters and skips.

In braking tests back to back with an RVF400 NC35, at 30mph the VFR750 stopped 1ft further (and its about 50kg heavier) but the RVF was a bitch to keep the rear down, never in ~45k had the rear lift on the VFR.

Druid

Lozzo

13-12-09, 06:12 PM

Aye but try braking into a corner with stock SV forks, the lack of rebound damping nearly sticks the top yoke up your nose!

I ride harder than most people and have never dropped an SV or even come close because of the limitations of the suspension while cornering or braking for corners. I suppose it all depends on the way you ride and your ability to ride round a bike's faults, but I never really had a problem with the stock forks on all the SVs I rode. Sure they are a little lacking, but they aren't as bad as most people would have you believe (and I'm having a dig at the inexperienced recently qualified riders in particular here because they just repeat/recycle all they've read or heard without having any real experience of good suspension setups to compare with).

Maybe I can put up with a lot more than most people before I start whinging and/or falling off. Maybe some of you should try riding fast on sh1te old bikes that never handled well to start with and see how long it takes before you make a hole in the scenery. I get the feeling too much blame is apportioned to the suspension's faults, and not enough is levelled at the rider's hamfistedness and inexperience

seedy100

13-12-09, 08:17 PM

I guess for me this depends entirely on what sort of riding I'am doing.

If I am on a relatively leisurely ride or commute I tend to try to do three things, the purpose of which is to help me keep up my concentration.

1) Avoid using the clutch.
This means clutchless shifts up and down the box except 1>2 and 2>1.
2) Avoid using the brakes
This means using anticipation, planning, observation and engine braking
3) Avoiding stopping
This means all of the above plus as much slow control as I can muster.

If I am riding in a more spiritted fashion I tend to try to do one thing
1) Avoid Crashing!
This means using brakes, gears, parachute etc as required to slow down as much as is required, just before its too late.

The same rules apply on the Vtwin (SV of coures) or the IL4 (K1200).