Damn. Another 3 points then. [Archive] - SV650.org

thedonal

20-12-09, 09:29 PM

Pulled over on the A3.

Going too fast. Of course.

Officer was very reasonable though-I could have had a summons apparently- 78 in a 50. Apparently, as the traffic was fairly quiet, this was taken into consideration.

The officer is also a pointy owner and an occasional visitor to the .org (he didn't spot the SV at first). So fair play, whomever you are, for not making an unpleasant occurence an unpleasant occurence.

D

Spiderman

20-12-09, 09:50 PM

hmmm, one of our own giving another some points? not very sporting but only doing his job i guess.

Dont worry if i figure out who it is i'll give him some infraction points when he next steps out of line ;)

Stu

20-12-09, 10:01 PM

thedonal

20-12-09, 10:02 PM

Well- I don't think he spotted mine as an SV at first- I guess he wasn't paying as much attention to it at first.

At the end of the day, it was a fair cop and he was very decent about it all- apparently he'd just issued a summons to a lady who was doing 80.

So not great, but not the end of the world either.

I should have had more sense- it's nearly Xmas, for a start, so there are more police keeping an eye on the traffic.

But there is a law there and I broke it. So that's that...

Still- damn. Damndamndamn. Bugger.!

I'm worried that the insurance may demand a bit more cash- I renewed early- it's due on the 23rd...

thedonal

20-12-09, 10:06 PM

Wherabouts?
That's a shame - I think I sucked all the luck out of that road for a while with my escape from punishment :neutral:

Marked or unmarked?

Was marked. A few bends southbound from the Robin Hood junction. Was sat in a police layby (or entrance to the fields there..) didn't spot it at first due to other traffic blocking the view. He followed me to the New Malden exit.

As stated above, I escaped a summons, so in some ways it was lucky- and I prefer to see the plus sides of things these days.

Spiderman

20-12-09, 10:12 PM

At the end of the day, it was a fair cop and he was very decent about it all- apparently he'd just issued a summons to a lady who was doing 80.

hehe, i love it when they say stuff like this .... they never say "i aint given a ticket in ages and the boss is moaning at me for not hitting targets and you just happen to be the unlucky git i pulled" do they?

thedonal

20-12-09, 10:26 PM

Lol. Though if he was likely to say that, I guess he'd be slightly more condescending, antagonistic and would have spoken to me as though I were 6.

And also, even if he was 'just saying that'- he would have been just saying it to take the sting out of being nicked. Which is also decent enough.

Anyway- that's 6 points now. Gonna have to be careful. I also overtook a bus being towed near oval and past a camera- though saw no flash for that one. Would be gutted if I got two in one day!

Spiderman

20-12-09, 10:28 PM

haha, i;m saying its funny how none of then EVER say that. I'm sure its like a spoon-full of sugar saying he's being nice as he gives you your medicine ;)

thedonal

20-12-09, 10:31 PM

Yeah. Though I'm sure that they would get a few complaints if they piped up like that.

Or- "I 'ad a row with the missus before my shift started, so I'm gonna take it out on you".

I had a copper pull me over years ago and said it was lucky he was at the end of his shift and didn't want to do the paperwork...!

Spiderman

20-12-09, 10:33 PM

haha, i had one who didnt wanna take his hands out his pockets cos it was freezing cold. That was years ago too.

Cops, they dont make em like they used to.

thedonal

20-12-09, 10:38 PM

My Bro got pulled over one winter- got a telling off as the officer decided it was too cold to get out of the car!

And I'm frankly surprised he hasn't got more points than me!

the_lone_wolf

20-12-09, 10:41 PM

The officer is also a pointy owner and an occasional visitor to the .org (he didn't spot the SV at first). So fair play, whomever you are, for not making an unpleasant occurence an unpleasant occurence.

You BAS*ARD BluePete!!!

;)

Fizzy Fish

21-12-09, 07:16 AM

Alpinestarhero

21-12-09, 10:15 AM

It still grates on me how much they focus on speed. I know it's narrow lanes on that stretch, but that isn't really an issue for bikes, and 78mph on a dual carriageway is hardly death-defying!

I think you're being surprisingly reasonable about it all... (or maybe it's the relief at not going to court! :lol: )

well, 78 in a 50 (was it 50?) is a bit of a mickey take, and although I have taken the mickey, i would hold my hands up and say "yep, officer, i know i was going that fast. I am sorry, it was silly, so I deserve your points"

I see many many people though who come past at 70-80 on the north circ (40 and 50 mph limits) and no-one gets pulled, not alot of police presence there really. you take your chances, 99% of the time you get away with it, but sometimes you get caught

thedonal, if you were doing 60, he'd probably have not bothered. down the north circ, most people do about 60 mph, safer to go with the traffic flow then rather than being undertaken, tailgated and overtaken all at once :lol:

oh, btw, bad luck :(

LK-SV

21-12-09, 10:19 AM

well, 78 in a 50 (was it 50?) is a bit of a mickey take,

Have to say .... sorry to hear that ..... but 78 in a 50 is taking the pee ..... you're very lucky he didn't take it further ...... a biker in this weather doing those sort of speeds ..... you'd be lucky to keep your licence I reckon ....

Dicky Ticker

21-12-09, 10:23 AM

I don't think the copper concerned was hard on you as 78 in a 50 is more than 50% over the speed limit and as you are aware of the speed limit on that bit of road a lucky escape.
We all know that speeding is an offence you will get caught at sooner or later at but we still try chancing our arm.
Still,not a nice Xmas present:(

Fizzy Fish

21-12-09, 11:46 AM

He may have been 'taking the pee' in terms of the law, but my point is that the law is sometimes a bit OTT, and it doesn't necessarily mean that he was 'taking the pee' in terms of dodgy riding.

Rules have been set so they can be enforced, but IMHO they don't get at the real problems that cause accidents (e.g. inattention and carelessness). Yes of course there are accidents caused by loss of control due to speed, I totally accept that. However most people regularly speed, and some regularly speed a lot :rolleyes: and guess what nothing happens to the great majority - which tells you that it isn't as simple as speed = danger.

thedonal

21-12-09, 11:53 AM

Exactly- a fair cop and a fair cop!

This time of year, there are more police available- to ensure the roads are safer at this time of the year by catching the boozy drivers! No- obviously these guys were looking for speed, but that's the way it is.

The law is there and it was broken. Bit more than a slapped wrist, but less than severe punishment.

So it's gonna be best behaviour from me then!

Bluepete

21-12-09, 04:12 PM

You BAS*ARD BluePete!!!

;)

In the famous words of Bart Simpson,

"It wasn't me!"

My laser, for some reason, don't seem to work on bikes :roll:

Pete ;)

yorkie_chris

21-12-09, 04:31 PM

the_lone_wolf

21-12-09, 04:39 PM

My laser, for some reason, don't seem to work on bikes :roll:

Pete ;)

Good man, must be a pain trying to aim it properly...;)

Owenski

21-12-09, 04:47 PM

Bluepete - the good kind.

LK-SV

21-12-09, 04:54 PM

Bluepete - the good kind.

Lets not get carried away with this .... limits are there for all ..... whether you agree with them or not ;)

Experts set rules that take in account potential road conditions, other road users (ie. the differential in speed of all users), etc, etc, etc ..... believing that 'I know this road, and this is how I value the speed limit' is just plan niave ..... as is 'well, a bike narrower isn't it' ....

I'm not saying stick to the speed limits rigidly .... but use a bit of common sense ....

Bluepete wouldn't be helping anyone if he let ALL motorcyclist do what they want to do ..... ;)

yorkie_chris

21-12-09, 05:10 PM

'I know this road, and this is how I value the speed limit' is just plan niave .....

It seems reasonable to me.

I want to be somewhere. I don't want to die or end up paying fine... what is risk of either. Only go as fast as you can see to brake down to the speed limit :smt073

LK-SV

21-12-09, 05:26 PM

Only go as fast as you can see to brake down to the speed limit

Urm .... not really !!! :o

Not really the way to ride IMO ... where's the comfort zone if you are looking for Police cars all the time ... where's the real concentration .... wheres the respect for other road users .... wheres the time to look for other potential hazards ..... etc .... etc ...

I could go on .... but fear only time and experience, not my ramblings will make some people change how they view the roads we all share :D

Sudoxe

21-12-09, 05:42 PM

Urm .... not really !!! :o

Not really the way to ride IMO ... where's the comfort zone if you are looking for Police cars all the time ... where's the real concentration .... wheres the respect for other road users .... wheres the time to look for other potential hazards ..... etc .... etc ...

I could go on .... but fear only time and experience, not my ramblings will make some people change how they view the roads we all share :D

Glad to see your 4months riding experience (http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2006711&postcount=1) has turned you into the most experienced rider on the site.

If you are alert and looking for potential hazards it's no more effort to spot a police car/speed camera than it is to spot pedestrians, trucks, and stray cats.

Alpinestarhero

21-12-09, 05:45 PM

Lets not get carried away with this .... limits are there for all ..... whether you agree with them or not ;)

Experts set rules that take in account potential road conditions, other road users (ie. the differential in speed of all users), etc, etc, etc ..... believing that 'I know this road, and this is how I value the speed limit' is just plan niave ..... as is 'well, a bike narrower isn't it' ....

I'm not saying stick to the speed limits rigidly .... but use a bit of common sense ....

Bluepete wouldn't be helping anyone if he let ALL motorcyclist do what they want to do ..... ;)

I agree here. I rarely ever exceed 85 mph. even rarer will I exceed 90 mph! In london I rarely exceed 60 mph. I just dont want to have the hassle. Around sussex ther are so many undercover police vehicles, it makes it not nice to thrash about, you are just scared. My dad enjoys riding a little 400cc honda over a 750cc GSXR for this reason, alot of the time. He can work hard and not get into lisence-loosing, or even points-collecting territory

LK-SV

21-12-09, 05:49 PM

Glad to see your 4months riding experience (http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2006711&postcount=1) has turned you into the most experienced rider on the site.

LOL .... :rolleyes:

4 Months riding the SV .... but 15 years on the roads, many in high performance cars .... (Lotus Elise, Audi TT Quattro, Audi 3.2 V6 Quattro) ..... its all the same :o

.... and your point was ?? :D

Alpinestarhero

21-12-09, 06:00 PM

Glad to see your 4months riding experience (http://forums.sv650.org/showpost.php?p=2006711&postcount=1) has turned you into the most experienced rider on the site.

If you are alert and looking for potential hazards it's no more effort to spot a police car/speed camera than it is to spot pedestrians, trucks, and stray cats.

stray cats?!?!

http://www.onlineinvestingai.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/crash.jpg

Spiderman

21-12-09, 06:26 PM

I see many many people though who come past at 70-80 on the north circ (40 and 50 mph limits) and no-one gets pulled, not alot of police presence there really. you take your chances, 99% of the time you get away with it, but sometimes you get caught

Gotta say, on parts of the north circ where its set at 40 i only ever do 40 thru the speed cameras.....as does almost every other car,bike,van,truck. Its a silly limit set to raise revenue mainly.
Approaching the Ace i have been known to hit 90 odd if i'm in a rush to get there...or the road is empty and i feel like a blat. It opens into almost 6 lanes at one point and if those lanes are virtually empty, well...

Have to say .... sorry to hear that ..... but 78 in a 50 is taking the pee ..... you're very lucky he didn't take it further ...... a biker in this weather doing those sort of speeds ..... you'd be lucky to keep your licence I reckon ....

I agree, he was lucky but it dont mean the limits are right.

He may have been 'taking the pee' in terms of the law, but my point is that the law is sometimes a bit OTT, and it doesn't necessarily mean that he was 'taking the pee' in terms of dodgy riding.

Rules have been set so they can be enforced, but IMHO they don't get at the real problems that cause accidents (e.g. inattention and carelessness). Yes of course there are accidents caused by loss of control due to speed, I totally accept that. However most people regularly speed, and some regularly speed a lot :rolleyes: and guess what nothing happens to the great majority - which tells you that it isn't as simple as speed = danger.

Just like the wise lady says, we all ride within our capability for the most part, not some arbitrary number set to take into account the lowest form of unintelligent and switched off driver.

I can ride fast and a cat can run into the road and i'll wipe out...my fault for going fast or the cats for running out? If i;d been going a little faster still the cat would have run out behind me so speed itself isn't always the worst thing that could happen.

Alpinestarhero

21-12-09, 06:32 PM

Gotta say, on parts of the north circ where its set at 40 i only ever do 40 thru the speed cameras.....as does almost every other car,bike,van,truck. Its a silly limit set to raise revenue mainly.
Approaching the Ace i have been known to hit 90 odd if i'm in a rush to get there...or the road is empty and i feel like a blat. It opens into almost 6 lanes at one point and if those lanes are virtually empty, well...

Yea, I agree here. The one speed camera that makes some sense to me is when your heading north bound, after the ace cafe into the first 40 mph limit near ikea. That slows everyone down in preperation for queing traffic at the lights

There is one near brent cross which diverts your attention away from traffinc trying to join, it dosnt seem safe

yorkie_chris

21-12-09, 06:39 PM

Not really the way to ride IMO ... Ok, you're entitled to it
where's the comfort zone if you are looking for Police cars all the time ... If you want comfort zone take a taxi
where's the real concentration .... You need the concentration
wheres the respect for other road users .... that doesn't really need much cognitive power
wheres the time to look for other potential hazards ....Police ARE a potential hazard just same as ice, children, sleeping cagers

I've never found myself disrespecting other road users because I was too busy looking for coppers:p. If other road user is in the way I will overtake... it is no skin off their nose. If they see that as disrespectful they can go sit on a broken bottle for all I care!

CoolGirl

21-12-09, 06:45 PM

LOL .... :rolleyes:

4 Months riding the SV .... but 15 years on the roads, many in high performance cars .... (Lotus Elise, Audi TT Quattro, Audi 3.2 V6 Quattro) ..... its all the same :o

well no, not really - it only proves that you might be the owner of a small willy rather than any motoring expertise.

Your observation on a bike is, hopefully, a lot different from that in a car. I had nearly 20 years car experience before I turned to biking and I learnt loads. My partner;'s learing to ride now and says it's really opened up his eyes to the need for enhanced observation skills and it's already made him a better car driver.

D - sorry about your points. I got my 3 only 6 weeks before I was due to give up my license. Sucks, dunnit?

beabert

21-12-09, 06:55 PM

Coming from motorcycle only license its shocking how car drivers just dont look around. The people teaching me to drive say i look round to much and its unnecessary!!! well excuse me for wanting to keep an eye out both behind and infront.

thedonal

21-12-09, 07:01 PM

Cheers for all the commiseration's folks. I'm OK with it on a very real sense- part of this is being grown up to accept responsibility for/the consequences of my actions. I'm certainly not entertaining the idea of going to court- I'd get squished with a huge fine and possibly more points!

I don't think (law aside) that my speeding was irresponsible to other road users- I use awareness and judgement and give myself space to react to situations where I can and so that other can react to me. Yes- I didn't spot the squad car until too late- tough, really!

Up to 6 points now. Not the end of the world. but time to be more cautious. If one is really going to speed, do it within reason (if I'd been below 60mph, maybe he could have exercised the discretion to not book me at all) and don't get caught!

I don't necessarily agree with all of the speed limits (if Kingston Council had their way, all the roads round here would be 5mph with speed humps on the A3!). I also think there is a bit of revenue generation/upkeep with speed.

Most of the A3 from Robin hood to Guildford is 3 lane motorway standard- I don't understand why the speed limit has been reduced to be honest. There's just as many flowers appear on the railings by the Robin Hood jct as when the limit was 70.

I would be happier to see more traffic police on the road, to be honest- dealing with all the other idiots - mobile phone drivers, aggressive drivers, un-taxed/uninsured drivers and the like but it's the law of diminishing returns really- cheaper to enforce speed and takes less resource.

And why does driving sports/prestige cars always have to be put down to the size of a bloke's tackle? Even if it is intended as a humourous comment (not smileyed as such), it still perpetuates a degree of condescending sexism against blokes and is a fairly irrelevant comment really. Just an observation- cos that comment has become rather dull (I've never had a sports car- and I've got a tiny one! If I wanted a sports car- it'd be for the fun of it, not to prove something).

CoolGirl

21-12-09, 07:12 PM

And why does driving sports/prestige cars always have to be put down to the size of a bloke's tackle? Even if it is intended as a humourous comment (not smileyed as such), it still perpetuates a degree of condescending sexism against blokes and is a fairly irrelevant comment really. Just an observation- cos that comment has become rather dull (I've never had a sports car- and I've got a tiny one! If I wanted a sports car- it'd be for the fun of it, not to prove something).

Follow my train of thought here.... the somewhat unscientific claim made by the poster was that having a sports car makes you a more competent driver - I owned one and I certainly wouldn't make any claims about it improving my driving skills. I do say that riding a bike for years did, though.

(ps I don't use smileys much as I can't always see what they are)

LK-SV

21-12-09, 07:13 PM

well no, not really - it only proves that you might be the owner of a small willy rather than any motoring expertise.

I wouldn't say buying a fast car is any different to buying a fast bike !!

Never fails to amaze me when people come on a forum, and then get the hump when others have an opinion - the least I woukd expect though was a discussion rather than insult ....... To quote...........what I'm talking about here is a failure to communicate !!!

thedonal

21-12-09, 07:17 PM

Follow my train of thought here.... the somewhat unscientific claim made by the poster was that having a sports car makes you a more competent driver - I owned one and I certainly wouldn't make any claims about it improving my driving skills. I do say that riding a bike for years did, though.

(ps I don't use smileys much as I can't always see what they are)

Fair enough.

Spiderman

21-12-09, 07:18 PM

I wouldn't say buying a fast car is any different to buying a fast bike !!

But it inherently is. Get in your fast car and lift both feet into the air...does your car fall over?

They are 2 very different beast with very different characteristics mate. Road awareness with each is also gonna be different.

yorkie_chris

21-12-09, 07:21 PM

I wouldn't say buying a fast car is any different to buying a fast bike !!

Never fails to amaze me when people come on a forum, and then get the hump when others have an opinion - the least I woukd expect though was a discussion rather than insult ....... To quote...........what I'm talking about here is a failure to communicate !!!

Both generally ridden at <10% of their capabilities?

That's what your missus said too.
See insults are great, why else would you be on the internet :p

CoolGirl

21-12-09, 07:22 PM

I wouldn't say buying a fast car is any different to buying a fast bike !!

But that's about the size of your bank balance not your level of competence. And 4 wheels on a sports car will be waaaay more manageable than the skill needed to handle a high-performance sportsbike.

yorkie_chris

21-12-09, 07:30 PM

But that's about the size of your bank balance not your level of competence. And 4 wheels on a sports car will be waaaay more manageable than the skill needed to handle a high-performance sportsbike.

That is question of use though.

Drive a proper hot car after 5 lessons and you will stall it every time. Drive a GSXR1000 after CBT and you'll be fine unless you disrespect it and die. DIEEEEE I TELL UUU

LK-SV

21-12-09, 07:33 PM

You've all completely missed the point .....my poiny is you buy a nice car you're a ***** (whether you've done tracks in it or not) ...but you buy a fast bike and its acceptable (here) - nothing to do with anything else - Forget it though, and keep wearing your silly bright romper suits, and fitting noisy exhauts !! * sticks tongue out* Lol .....

thulfi

21-12-09, 07:42 PM

Sorry bout the points...coulda been worse though.

I don't reckon anybody knows what real awareness on the road is until they've ridden a motorbike. Well for me thats true anyway, and now when in my cage, I attempt to maintain the same level of awareness and adopt many of the same principles as if I were riding. I would have been ignorant to such constant concentration in my pre-biking years.

Also agree with the earlier statement that you shouldn't slate 78 in a 50 for being dangerous necessarily. No doubt points deserved, but many a 50 roads out there that are practically motorways - perhaps the cop felt this, and didn't pursue it further.

Sudoxe

21-12-09, 07:57 PM

LOL .... :rolleyes:

4 Months riding the SV .... but 15 years on the roads, many in high performance cars .... (Lotus Elise, Audi TT Quattro, Audi 3.2 V6 Quattro) ..... its all the same :o

.... and your point was ?? :D

My point was, in many circumstances, speed limits become largely irrelevant.

For example, on the A2 in the middle of the day, on a sunny day in August, a 3 or 4 lane carriageway, with a central reservation and essentially motorway conditions and a 40 - 50mph speed limit in many places. Now, there is no reason, other than legal that a motorcycle could not be doing 70mph down this section of road safely, on a clear, dry day.

However, take another day such as today, where the road has frozen and it has been snowing. In many places the prescribed 30mile an hour limit would be a huge hazard to ride/drive at.

It's all about observation & sense, don't ride/drive faster than you can see, or the conditions allow. It can even be down to how you are feeling, some days you will see everything, other days you need to slow up a bit because your reactions aren't as quick or you aren't visualizing everything you normally would. It happens to everyone, don't think it doesn't.

Dan

Dicky Ticker

21-12-09, 08:31 PM

Sorry but I don't see any difference between driving an artic,truck,van,car,sports car,or riding a bike, sports bike or twist and go,they all demand your full concentration to the best of your ability.
The individual skill levels regarding driving each type may vary but road awareness to other road users is exactly the same irrelevant to the vehicle you drive or ride
As far as I am concerned it is never the vehicle that is the problem ,its the driver/rider.
Yes,we can all have slips of concentration,sometimes it may only be a motoring offense ,other times it may result in an accident.
ANY person who is accident and offense free after 45years and 3 or 4 million miles is a better driver than me.

5hort5

22-12-09, 01:30 AM

debate debate debate,

Unlucky on the points D but I agree with your sentiments.

Stu

22-12-09, 01:27 PM

Fizzy Fish for President :smt041

You've all completely missed the point ......but you buy a fast bike and its acceptable (here) - and keep wearing your silly bright romper suits,..
Wow, I don't think you could have missed the point of Yorkie Chris any further than that if you'd tried ;)

Oh, and for those that don't know it, this section of road is far from Motorway standard (narrow lanes and sometimes shortish, or non existant, slip roads) for that reason it is 50...although I don't think anyone would believe me if I tried to justify it, having been stopped on the same road the week before for 110 (a little bit further south in the 70) when the Officer used his common sense (wasn't that what you urged us to use further up LK-SV?) and he let me off.

Fizzy Fish

22-12-09, 01:32 PM

Experts set rules that take in account potential road conditions, other road users (ie. the differential in speed of all users), etc, etc, etc .....

It would be nice if that were the case more often. However I know how these limits are set and and trust me it isn't quite that perfect a system.

There are far too many blanket judgements, and many decisions are made on the basis of politics, or the (IMHO) misguided view that we should forgo all enjoyment in life and limit the efficiency of the transport network in order to pursue the ideal standard of zero road casualties.

It's the same attitude that has done things like dramatically reduce the prevalence of activities/school trips for kids because of a small number of injuries/deaths. I really do feel for parents in that situation BUT the reaction needs to be in proportion. Instead the fear culture sets in and every decision is made to be on the safe side.

And the icing on the cake is that (as has been said) they then set a limit for the lowest common denominator of human common sense/alertness.

And the scientists who carry out the research? Well they would be the same people who made a decision about whether bikers can wear dark visors by driving around in a car with a lid on and seeing if they could spot a marker on the ground. I rest my case...

:rant:

I'm not saying stick to the speed limits rigidly .... but use a bit of common sense ....

That would be the common sense that has kept me uninjured during 12 years of riding then?*

I could go on .... but fear only time and experience, not my ramblings will make some people change how they view the roads we all share :D

Funny, time and experience has only strengthened my own opinion and not the other way around... :rolleyes:

LK-SV - you are of course entitled to your opinion about the matter, but I just happen to disagree...

* large piece of wood touched

Fizzy Fish

22-12-09, 01:33 PM

Fizzy Fish for President :smt041

+1 ;)

LK-SV

22-12-09, 01:39 PM

It would be nice if that were the case more often. However I know how these limits are set and and trust me it isn't quite that perfect a system.

There are far too many blanket judgements, and many decisions are made on the basis of politics, or the (IMHO) misguided view that we should forgo all enjoyment in life and limit the efficiency of the transport network in order to pursue the ideal standard of zero road casualties.

It's the same attitude that has done things like dramatically reduce the prevalence of activities/school trips for kids because of a small number of injuries/deaths. I really do feel for parents in that situation BUT the reaction needs to be in proportion. Instead the fear culture sets in and every decision is made to be on the safe side.

And the icing on the cake is that (as has been said) they then set a limit for the lowest common denominator of human common sense/alertness.

And the scientists who carry out the research? Well they would be the same people who made a decision about whether bikers can wear dark visors by driving around in a car with a lid on and seeing if they could spot a marker on the ground. I rest my case...

:rant:

That would be the common sense that has kept me uninjured during 12 years of riding then?*

Funny, time and experience has only strengthened my own opinion and not the other way around... :rolleyes:

LK-SV - you are of course entitled to your opinion about the matter, but I just happen to disagree...

* large piece of wood touched

Do you know what ..... I do actually agree with a lot of that .... a well round discussion rather than pure speculation and insults ...... I'd support you for President :)