Chinese execution

[Dicky Ticker]

Strange state of affairs-----If the guy was mentally ill why was he going to China in the first place.Starting a "Pop" career at 53?. Claiming he was "Duped" into carrying 5 kilos of heroin.
The Chinese authorities claim there is no previous record of mental illness
and it baffles me where these people get the money from to go globe trotting.
I do not disagree with a nation upholding its own laws within its own territorial confines providing judicial practice has been adhered to.
Brown and Milliband must have great expectations of themselves if they think they can influence the Chinese and as far as I can see all they have managed to do is alienate the Chinese
It surprises me that "Sane" the British Charity can get enough information from China that they can form a diagnosis of the mans mental health.

Not necessarily saying that I agree or disagree with the death penalty but interfering with other countries judicial systems seems a bit strong
I traveled abroad for 30 years and respect that each individual country has different laws and "When in Rome" should apply

[timwilky]

As I understand things, the guy had managed to run a company. and has lived in a number of countries. Therefore I find it strange he was supposed to be so mentally ill that he would not know he was dealing in drugs. That he attempted to smuggle the drugs is not disputed.

Why was it claimed so much that he is a British national. He also held Pakistani nationality. I would gave thought under current circumstances the Chinese authorities would have be more swayed by Pakistan than a minor bankrupt country of no political, economic or strategic value to them

[cuffy]

Totally agree with you, got no sympathy for him.
Live by the sword you die by the sword.

[husky03]

let this be a lesson to those who consider exploiting the demand for economic growth in china and the doors that their need for development open-more people are gonna try and make money from the chinese, both legally and illegally, by carrying out their laws(rightly or wrongly )they have shown that they will not buckle to pleas from second rate leaders from other countries-this sends a message that if you do the crime-your gonna do the time.They show very little human rights to their own people, so their not gonna show anymore to some foreign dude.They worked it out that the amount of herion he brought in was enough to kill 26,800 people-there not gonna lose sleep over killing one instead.
Feel sorry for the guys family, but where were they when he was shooting off around the otherside of the world?-if he was as ill as they said surely they'd be involved in his day to day life?.

[Jabba]

I was listening to psychiatrist on R5 talking about this and bipolar disorder. If I understood him correctly, he was saying that the chap would still have understood that what he was doing was wrong.

Seems that the Chinese acted as they did because there was no evidence on file that he had a mental illness.

My view:
Why do we think we have the right to lecture other governments about human rights? We're not exactly squeaky-clean ourselves...... invading Iraq on fabricated "evidence" in a dodgy dossier, turning a blind eye to extraordinary rendition from the UK by the US, CCTV cameras watching our every move (legal or otherwise), keeping names of innocent people on criminal databases, compiling a database of the affairs of every new born child in the country...

The guy broken Chinese law in China - this is not disputed. He should therefore be judged in China by the Chinese according to Chinese law.

[husky03]

I was listening to psychiatrist on R5 talking about this and bipolar disorder. If I understood him correctly, he was saying that the chap would still have understood that what he was doing was wrong.

Seems that the Chinese acted as they did because there was no evidence on file that he had a mental illness.

My view:
Why do we think we have the right to lecture other governments about human rights? We're not exactly squeaky-clean ourselves...... invading Iraq on fabricated "evidence" in a dodgy dossier, turning a blind eye to extraordinary rendition from the UK by the US, CCTV cameras watching our every move (legal or otherwise), keeping names of innocent people on criminal databases, compiling a database of the affairs of every new born child in the country...

The guy broken Chinese law in China - this is not disputed. He should therefore be judged in China by the Chinese according to Chinese law.



+1

[Jayneflakes]

It is widely known that China has an appalling human rights record, if you look at what they use the death penalty for, you see that it is given out for some crimes, that in this country a criminal would get a light sentence for. Why are people surprised at this outcome?

I do not like the death penalty, but smuggling Class A drugs into China was a really stupid thing to do, mental health issues or not, it was a stupid thing to do. You do not need to be fully aware to know that China is a country gripped by a vicious regime, to break their laws you would have to be mental.

Maybe there will be a few more members of Amnesty after this story, but I doubt there will be much else done. China will continue to exploit it's own people and murder them every day, what is one little drug smuggler to them?

[dizzyblonde]

Hes the first European to be executed in China for 'x' amount of years. Does he get a special badge?


Sorry I have no sympathy for him.

[stewie]

Isnt bi polar the new namefor manic depression ? if so plenty of people have manic depression and dont go round smuggling class A drugs, Im sorry he paid for it with his life but what about all the lives which could have been lost through the heroin he smuggled ?

[Luckypants]

This guy was never diagnosed with Bi-polar (manic-depression) disorder. The 'diagnosis' was by a forensic psychologist based on here-say evidence from his family, his lifestyle and so forth. His 'diagnosis' was paid for by Reprieve, the anti-death penalty charity. The Chinese said they were not presented with any medical evidence of mental illness, which of course they could not be, because he has never been diagnosed with it. IMHO the bi-polar thing is flim-flam cooked up by Reprieve to try to get this guy off, well that might wash in a soft judicial system like ours, but not with the Chinese.

I agree that it was right he has been tried and sentenced by the Chinese, in China and under Chinese law - because it was their laws he broke.


and it's one less drug trafficker in the world, so I'm happy about that.

[yorkie_chris]

What is it with these damn hippies? There are so many people everywhere deserving of help, yet these scum waste their time on murderers, paeodophiles and drug traffickers. Thought for the day, kick amnesty international in the b*ll*cks.

[Luckypants]

What is it with these damn hippies? There are so many people everywhere deserving of help, yet these scum waste their time on murderers, paeodophiles and drug traffickers. Thought for the day, kick amnesty international in the b*ll*cks.

The main whinger on this guy's behalf is Reprieve Chris, so kick them in the corbals.

[yorkie_chris]

Pft same thing. Bunch of champagne communists bleating about this while snorting coke themselves. They should take a trip to Columbia and see what they think of drug trade then.

Ironically, what turmoil must they feel criticizing such a forward-thinking marxist regime lol. :smt005

[Jabba]

The main whinger on this guy's behalf is Reprieve Chris, so kick them in the corbals.

Might as well give AI a knack in the kickers* for luck whilst he's at it, though :thumbsup:





*with grateful thanks to The Two Ronnies for that one ;-)

[timwilky]

My eldest has done some work summarising opinions for death row appeals in the States. Most she freely admits are blatantly guilty men looking for some form of clemency whereby a capital sentence will be commuted.

I have mixed views. I do not support the death sentence. However I also believe a country has the right to make their own legal system and penalties. and to implement their decisions free of hindrance from others.

I have spent enough time in the far east and China to know you do not smuggle drugs and think very carefully what prescription drugs you may carry with you. What may be legal here may get you locked up in other countries

[Ed]

What is it with these damn hippies? There are so many people everywhere deserving of help, yet these scum waste their time on murderers, paeodophiles and drug traffickers. Thought for the day, kick amnesty international in the b*ll*cks.

*Scumbag Ed proudly waves a bloody great flag for hippies and wastes time on drug smugglers*

I sincerely hope that none of you ever have to face the sort of ordeal that this man faced. At least the death was by injection, and not bullet to the back of the head. My experience of a great deal of litigation - admittedly mostly civil, just a small amount of criminal - tells me that there is always something you can say for somebody.

I hate the so called death 'penalty'. It is never justified and I am so thankful that we don't have it here, that it is part of our fundamental human rights that this hideous and grotesque punishment was got rid of nearly 50 years ago. Nothing will ever change my mind that nobody is entitled to put anyone else to death - remember the old Gandhi quote, 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.' Nope, not for Huntley, Brady, nor anyone else. As I've said on here before, if I were on a jury where a guilty finding meant death, I would refuse to convict.

And anyway you have all missed the point. China is entitled to its judicial system, corrupt and evil as it is. The point is that no mental health assessment was ever carried out on this man, except the ones undertaken earlier in this thread. He acted in a bizarre way that most people would struggle to understand. Why couldn't the Chinese have allowed access by a consultant psychiatrist? What did they have to lose?

And Brown and Miliband and all the rest of them will kick up a stink about the execution, but come New Year it will all be forgotten and we will have moved on to other things, like the upcoming general election, and the £120m in aid (source: the UK Government's Department For International Development website today) that we give to these odious corrupt repressive stinking murdering Chinese will continue as per normal, because when push comes to shove trade and business by mega corporations is more important than human life. Friends, that's the reality. Nice people, aren't they, the Chinese.

[ophic]

*Scumbag Ed proudly waves a bloody great flag for hippies and wastes time on drug smugglers*

I sincerely hope that none of you ever have to face the sort of ordeal that this man faced. At least the death was by injection, and not bullet to the back of the head. My experience of a great deal of litigation - admittedly mostly civil, just a small amount of criminal - tells me that there is always something you can say for somebody.

I hate the so called death 'penalty'. It is never justified and I am so thankful that we don't have it here, that it is part of our fundamental human rights that this hideous and grotesque punishment was got rid of nearly 50 years ago. Nothing will ever change my mind that nobody is entitled to put anyone else to death - remember the old Gandhi quote, 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.' Nope, not for Huntley, Brady, nor anyone else. As I've said on here before, if I were on a jury where a guilty finding meant death, I would refuse to convict.

And anyway you have all missed the point. China is entitled to its judicial system, corrupt and evil as it is. The point is that no mental health assessment was ever carried out on this man, except the ones undertaken earlier in this thread. He acted in a bizarre way that most people would struggle to understand. Why couldn't the Chinese have allowed access by a consultant psychiatrist? What did they have to lose?

And Brown and Miliband and all the rest of them will kick up a stink about the execution, but come New Year it will all be forgotten and we will have moved on to other things, like the upcoming general election, and the £120m in aid (source: the UK Government's Department For International Development website today) that we give to these odious corrupt repressive stinking murdering Chinese will continue as per normal, because when push comes to shove trade and business by mega corporations is more important than human life. Friends, that's the reality. Nice people, aren't they, the Chinese.
If i'm ever up on a drug charge, i'll stick 2 pencils up my nose, make strange noises, and ask you to represent me :smt080

[Luckypants]

And anyway you have all missed the point. China is entitled to its judicial system, corrupt and evil as it is. The point is that no mental health assessment was ever carried out on this man, except the ones undertaken earlier in this thread. He acted in a bizarre way that most people would struggle to understand. Why couldn't the Chinese have allowed access by a consultant psychiatrist? What did they have to lose?

Well as I have pointed out previously Ed, this man was not diagnosed with a mental illness at any point. His odd behaviour and 'alleged' bi-polar disorder was only trotted out once he was sentenced to death. It does sound like his appeal demonstrated that he was unbalanced from what I have read, but I also understand that the Chinese system only allows for a condition diagnosed before the crime to be used as mitigation.

[yorkie_chris]

I sincerely hope that none of you ever have to face the sort of ordeal that this man faced.

China is entitled to its judicial system, corrupt and evil as it is. The point is that no mental health assessment was ever carried out on this man, except the ones undertaken earlier in this thread.

He acted in a bizarre way that most people would struggle to understand.

when push comes to shove trade and business by mega corporations is more important than human life. Friends, that's the reality. Nice people, aren't they, the Chinese.

In order:
And I sincerely hope that noone close to you ever has trouble with drug addiction.

No it isn't entitled to it, like any communist regime it was brought into being violently at the expense of hundreds of thousands of deaths.
But, no matter how much he says "awibble", he's still bloody guilty. You don't just find a few million quids worth of smack at the side of the road.

He acted in a bizarre way most people would struggle to understand. Yeah, sounds a lot like a criminal to me.

Chinese goods coming into this country are worth a lot of jobs. My Dads firm employs 60-80. I'd shoot a drug smuggler in the head to give 60-80 people jobs.

[Spiderman]

I'm a hippy at heart and hell if it wasn't for drug smugglers how would i get my own gear? The quality of drugs as gone way downhill in the last few years mainly due to the cops getting better at catching smugglers, dammit.

However, you smuggle drugs you take the risks and face the music if caught. Hence why i dont smuggle drugs or if i ever planned to i'd do it to a country who dont have the death penalty and have nice jails. Somewhere like Switzerland perhaps i might consider being a mule to.

Silly boy got caught and now he is trying every trick to not be killed, fair play, i'd do the same thing tbh. We say it on threads about speeding and things so why should he not try it when his very life is on the line?

BTW i've never run drugs for anyone but have taken personal bits thru customs in the past for mad weekends away :lol:

[cuffy]

Nice people, aren't they, the Chinese.

Gotta admit, they do a cracking crispy duck ;)

[ophic]

Silly boy got caught and now he is trying every trick to not be killed, fair play, i'd do the same thing tbh.
He's already failed.

[Spiderman]

oh did they execute him then? I thought it was happening "soon". I'm out of touch as always.

[zsv650]

tough **** tbh did the crime got caught just unfortunate where he got caught stupid person.

[Biker Biggles]

Im with Ed on this one.Im against the death penalty in principle and I think it is the duty of our political leaders to try as they did to stop it however futile that may be when China is concerned.

[Biker Biggles]

What does worry me is how often I agree with Ed:D
I'll be joining the Tory party next:o

[Milky Bar Kid]

I find the whole thing rather odd.

I think this guy has just ran outta luck, he has probably been doing it for sometime if he was trusted to carry such a large quantity of drugs. It takes a fair bit of networking before the bosses would have allowed him access to such a large quantity.

And whilst it was possible he did have some sort of manic depression, he would still have been well aware of his actions. A manic episode can make you feel like you are untouchable but generally, you will be aware of what action you are taking.

Fair play to the guy for trying every trick in the book, anyone would in this kind of situation but at the end of the day, you takes your chances....

[Ed]

...whilst it was possible he did have some sort of manic depression, he would still have been well aware of his actions. A manic episode can make you feel like you are untouchable but generally, you will be aware of what action you are taking.



How do you know?

Stop jumping to conclusions.

This is the whole point - there was no psychiatric report, and the Chinese refused access.

[sunshine]

so someone smuggles drugs for whatever reason they claim and when they get caught in china of all place's complains about a mental problem which would not effect his ability to crime, is complaining about getting caught, and has now been killed by lethal injection. All seems to be in order everything as it should be.

oh and I agree with the death penalty so now how much of a flaming am I going to get for that one?

[ArtyLady]

I agree with Ed.

Cant be bothered to say anymore than that because it always falls on deaf ears.

[Ed]

so someone smuggles drugs for whatever reason they claim and when they get caught in china of all place's complains about a mental problem which would not effect his ability to crime, is complaining about getting caught, and has now been killed by lethal injection. All seems to be in order everything as it should be.

oh and I agree with the death penalty so now how much of a flaming am I going to get for that one?

More supposition of things you simply do not know to be true. See post 28. Up to you if you agree with killing people, it's quite fashionable on here.

I agree with Ed.

Cant be bothered to say anymore than that because it always falls on deaf ears.

Unfortunately Lorna, you are right. The above is a case in point. Not so much deaf ears, just ones that won't listen.

[TazDaz]

I agree with sunshine, mostly.

Bipolar or not, everyone knows it is wrong to smuggle drugs. He took a gamble, and now he's lost it all.

I don't think the death penelty was really appropriate for this offence, but I think it is the correct avenue of choice for other, more serious crimes where it has been proved 100% that the defendent did it or where they have confessed. I don't see the point in spending money keeping people locked up for decades.

[suzijax]

I think the sentence was a little harsh ... However i believe he was in the wrong, its China's country and therefore their laws

[thulfi]

Drug smuggling pays off because of the high risk attached (ie getting caught smuggling it into a country that dishes out death if they catch you!).

People like this know what they are doing, and know the risks involved. Break the law in another country, and face that countries punishment for the crime you do.

No one deserves to get killed for smuggling, but he just chanced it in the wrong country at the wrong time.

[Milky Bar Kid]

How do you know?

Stop jumping to conclusions.

This is the whole point - there was no psychiatric report, and the Chinese refused access.


And now you are jumping to conclusions, assuming I know nothing about psychological disorders.

I am not arguing that he did not have a mental illness. Generally, and generally being the key word in this sentence, people going through a manic episode still have a grasp of what is right and what is wrong, however, they have a feeling of indestructibility and therefore feeling that they are untouchable and that they won't get caught.

You also seem to have chosen to miss out my other point. There is no way he would have been trusted with such a large quantity of drugs if he had not proven himself.

Working with drug users day in and day out I think smuggling and dealing drugs an abhorrent act. I am not, deliberately, making a judgement on whether I agree with the death sentence, however as has been stated numerous times on this thread, he broke the law in China therefore he goes throught the Chinese justice system and ultimately he faced the Chinese punishment.

Who the hell is Gordon Brown to criticise other countries laws and justice systems? He is not the Global Prime Minister. Yes, we may be an influential country in the world but perhaps instead of slating other countries judicial system he should be looking at ours.

You steal in Saudi Arabia - you get hand cut off.
You have an affair in some Middle Eastern countries - you are stoned to death.
You kill a person in the UK - get called a naughty boy and get probation for a year....:rolleyes:

Now whilst I realise the last example is perhaps extreme, I pray you get the idea.

When we as a country have a perfect Govt and perfect judicial system, then, and only then, can we interfere with others.

[fizzwheel]

This is the whole point - there was no psychiatric report, and the Chinese refused access.

From what I understood, there was no history in anyway shape or form to suggest that he might be bi-polar. Hence why the chinese government refused it.

Now thats not to say he didnt have a mental disorder in the first place. Or that the mental disorder his family claimed he had was a fabricated excuse that he had engineered in case he ever got caught.

Thing is all we have is the current set of media hyperbole / spin to go on and I dont believe that we are in possesion of eitehr the truth or the full facts.

The cynical part of me wanders how long the government have known about this and why we are only finding out about it now...

[yorkie_chris]

Ed you do take all these things very personally. You should bear in mind that 90% of people on the internet are just having a wind-up.

How do you know?

Stop jumping to conclusions.

This is the whole point - there was no psychiatric report, and the Chinese refused access.

From sources set before us;
He smuggled drugs, got caught, was found guilty (drug smuggling being one of those "caught red handed" type crimes), and won't do it again.

I don't think it will put other people off doing it, there's too much money at stake.


So should I don the armour again when the noobs realise Im another bleedin' heart liberal despite my avatar? :p:D

Is that a dark patch on your shirt, cos it looks to my untrained eye like you're holding the stock rather than the pistol grip? That would definitely suggest you're a bit left-leaning.

[ArtyLady]

So nowt much has changed then in the 2 and bit years Ive been out of here?
;)

So should I don the armour again when the noobs realise Im another bleedin' heart liberal despite my avatar? :p:D

Put it this way Lyn - how good are you at ](*,)! :lol:

[anna]

So nowt much has changed then in the 2 and bit years Ive been out of here?
;)

So should I don the armour again when the noobs realise Im another bleedin' heart liberal despite my avatar? :p:D

no not much has changed the mob still think they rule ;)

Sorry but I am also with Ed on this matter. The death penalty has been brought up so many times and so you all know where I stand on this matter.

I like how it seems that people tell Mr Brown to butt out of other countries affairs when it doesn´t suit them, I remember a lot of people were all for interfering with the dictatorships and regimes in other countries because they did not match our own western moral stance on freedom and liberties.

[cuffy]

From what I understood, there was no history in anyway shape or form to suggest that he might be bi-polar.

Evidence:


























http://kimmco.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341cd7ed53ef010536634ff1970c-800wi

[The Basket]

Cool.

An over reaction from the BBC and I am supposed to lose sleep over it?

Why dont you go to a British court and watch drug criminals walk free?

And be proud to be British.

Why are the Chinese using lethal injection instead of a bullet?
Must be progress...

[ethariel]

Good riddance, another dealer in death and misery gets his comeuppance.

I just find it so comical these days that when people are convicted of an offence and after an appeal or two, things seem to still be against them that the 'Oh actually he/she is suffering from a previously un-detected mental illness! quick quash the conviction and let them go!' syndrome is appearing much more often now.

I suppose it's all Gary mcKinnons (sp) fault really, in his 2006 interviews there was never even the slightest suggestion that he was mentally ill at all, but later his whole defence moved to 'yes he did it but his previously un diagnosed illness made him do it'.

I just feel sorry for all the law abiding people with mental disorders who will get tarred with the 'I'm Bi-Polar therfore I'm a criminal just waiting to happen' brush.

[beabert]

Good riddance, another dealer in death and misery gets his comeuppance.

I just find it so comical these days that when people are convicted of an offence and after an appeal or two, things seem to still be against them that the 'Oh actually he/she is suffering from a previously un-detected mental illness! quick quash the conviction and let them go!' syndrome is appearing much more often now.

I suppose it's all Gary mcKinnons (sp) fault really, in his 2006 interviews there was never even the slightest suggestion that he was mentally ill at all, but later his whole defence moved to 'yes he did it but his previously un diagnosed illness made him do it'.

I just feel sorry for all the law abiding people with mental disorders who will get tarred with the 'I'm Bi-Polar therfore I'm a criminal just waiting to happen' brush.

+1

[Ed]

Good riddance, another dealer in death and misery gets his comeuppance.

I just find it so comical these days that when people are convicted of an offence and after an appeal or two, things seem to still be against them that the 'Oh actually he/she is suffering from a previously un-detected mental illness! quick quash the conviction and let them go!' syndrome is appearing much more often now.

I suppose it's all Gary mcKinnons (sp) fault really, in his 2006 interviews there was never even the slightest suggestion that he was mentally ill at all, but later his whole defence moved to 'yes he did it but his previously un diagnosed illness made him do it'.

I just feel sorry for all the law abiding people with mental disorders who will get tarred with the 'I'm Bi-Polar therfore I'm a criminal just waiting to happen' brush.

-1

[Luckypants]

This is the whole point - there was no psychiatric report, and the Chinese refused access.

Ed, you are applying the British system of justice to the Chinese system and it does not fit. You choose to ignore my previous point because it undermines your argument. So this time it is not the 'he got what he deserved' brigade that are not listening :)

Whether you agree / disagree with the death penalty is not really the issue here, because it is a lawful sentence in China for the crime he was convicted of - it's not like he was singled out for special treatment.

The bi-polar defence does not stand in Chinese law because it was not diagnosed before his crime. In fact it has NEVER been diagnosed in this person. The Chinese state that they were not presented with evidence of mental illness for the above reason. I guess the claim by Reprieve of bi-polar after he was convicted is considered 'convenient' by them.

[beabert]

Im with Ed on this one.Im against the death penalty in principle

Why?

[Ed]

No I didn't choose to ignore anyone's post because it was inconvenient. I don't do selectivity, I didn't reply simply because I overlooked it:D

I D/K what happened at the trial in the lower court, I came to this when it started attracting media attention.

So Mike, your point first. About not having any evidence of mental disorder. We are talking about somebody's life here, and whether or not evidence was presented at a lower court seems irrelevant to me. Given the nature of the punishment, the Chinese - or any other country that administers it, the US, Saudi Arabia, wherever you like to nominate - should always be alert to potential miscarriages of justice at any stage of the proceedings. Just because it wasn't there to start with is a big so what, the point was raised later, and the Chinese dnied access to a qualified practitioner. If they had allowed access, then liberals like me would have less to complain about.

On your second point, that Chinese rules apply so we should accept the position, does the mere fact that it took place in China mean that execution is justified? I don't like it in the US either. I find state sanctioned execution abhorrent wherever it is, for the simple reason - which (now I've read beabert's post, I would explain: ) is based on Christian principles - that nobody has the right to take anyone else's life.

MBK thought that I had rather assumed too much or ignored her points too. MBK, I didn't say that you have zero knowledge but I am fairly sure that you have no knowledge about this particular individual and how mental incapacity, if it existed, affected his behaviour. I'm not interested in generalisms, you can't execute somebody on general principles.

On the point about carrying a lot of heroin, yes I agree - it's a huge amount. Is there any evidence though that he had done this before? I don't think you can simply assume the point. I haven't seen any evidence - but I'm happy to be corrected.

And YC thinks I take it all too personally. Chris, perhaps I do, but this is one issue where I have strong feelings. As I said up tops, I have been involved in litigation of one sort or another for about 20 years, and there is always something you can say for someone, no matter how disgusting, how odious they might appear, or how 'right' the other side's case might be.

[beabert]

Christian principles Oh dear

The only valid reason i can see against the death penalty is that there might be a possibility that the person is not 100% guilty, personally i think its a bonus to die than spend life in a chinese prison.

Therefore death is the easy route out for them, let them be bored in prison the rest of there life.

[Ed]

Oh dear

Explain yourself, please.

[Speedy Claire]

Personally I have mixed views on this as I am generally opposed to the death sentence. HOWEVER it is well known that China imposes the death penalty on anyone carrying more than 50 grams... this guy must have known that, this is a country where the death sentence is imposed for tax evasion and fraud!!!

This guy must have known the risks. The Chinese do not like being told what to do by outsiders so it was pointless our Government even trying.

My real point is that whilst some are outraged by the execution I`d argue that it`s this country`s leniency towards drug crimes that make this execution seem so severe. Yes China is ruthless when it comes to drug offences but they have nothing like the drug problems we have here in Britain and I think that in many ways this should be applauded.

Our own society is awash with widespread crime and violence caused by its leniency towards drug related offences, dealers and users know that they don`t really have anything to fear from our courts because our country lacks the moral strength to be more ruthless in the sentencing of drug dealers.

Maybe China have actually got it right... maybe their willingness to execute dangerous criminals is a sign of compassion towards it`s own people as it shows a government prepared to protect the vulnerable and promote morality.

[Luckypants]

So Mike, your point first. About not having any evidence of mental disorder. We are talking about somebody's life here, and whether or not evidence was presented at a lower court seems irrelevant to me. Given the nature of the punishment, the Chinese - or any other country that administers it, the US, Saudi Arabia, wherever you like to nominate - should always be alert to potential miscarriages of justice at any stage of the proceedings. Just because it wasn't there to start with is a big so what, the point was raised later, and the Chinese dnied access to a qualified practitioner. If they had allowed access, then liberals like me would have less to complain about.

Again Ed you seem to applying our rules to the Chinese system. True, I think they should have allowed a qualified person to assess to his state of mind, but you and I know that this would have made no difference in reality. A Chinese psychologist would have found nothing wrong (unless they like long hard holidays in a cold camp in outer Mongolia!) and a western psychologist would have been ignored. My point is that if you are being tried by another country's legal system you have to follow their rules. In this case you have to be 'mad' before the crime for it to carry weight. As far as a potential miscarriage of justice goes, like Y-C pointed out, this is a caught red-handed / bang to rights type crime so he is guilty, but I can accept that there be should mitigation. This guy is unlucky because Reprieve's attempt at mitigation does not work under the Chinese system.

But if it was me, I'd prefer the death sentence to a life term in a Chinese mental institution. :(

On your second point, that Chinese rules apply so we should accept the position, does the mere fact that it took place in China mean that execution is justified?

Yes it does. Because those are the laws of the land in China, who are we to say their statutes / punishments are just or not? If we were Chinese citizens and felt strongly enough about it, we could protest the death sentence in general, but be prepared for that long holiday provided by the State.

We should all be mindful of the laws of countries we visit and the consequences of breaking them.

[Jayneflakes]

Amnesty Member here (have been for several years) and as I stated earlier, I do not condone the death penalty for anything.

I would suggest that our Dear Org members have a good look at the state of China before arguing that they did OK by their laws. I still stand by what I wrote earlier, the Chinese Regime is ruthless and corrupt.

This is the Statement from Amnesty International.

China: British man executed

Posted: 29 December 2009
Reacting to news that British man Akmal Shaikh was executed in China earlier this morning, Amnesty International Asia Programme Director Sam Zarifi said:
"Akmal Shaikh's execution highlights the injustice and inhumanity of the death penalty, particularly as it is implemented in China.
"Much information about the death penalty is considered a state secret, but Mr.. Shaikh's treatment seems consistent with what we know from other cases: a short, almost perfunctory trial, where not all the evidence was presented and investigated, and the death penalty applied to a non-violent crime.
"Under international human rights law, as well Chinese law, a defendant's mental health can and should be taken into account, and it doesn't seem that in this case the Chinese authorities did so.
"It's simply not enough for the Chinese authorities to say 'we did the right thing, trust us'. Now, there can be no re-assesment of evidence, no reprieve after a man's life has been taken. Amnesty International will continue to campaign for an end to the death penalty and for China to bring transparency and respect for human rights into its judicial system.
"The UK, the EU, and the rest of the world should continue to press the Chinese government to increase the transparency surrounding the death penalty in China and to improve the due process offered all defendants, particularly those facing charges punishable by death."


If you want to join up, go here (http://www.amnesty.org.uk/index.asp).

By the way, I am not a hippy. I am a human rights campaigner and I take the freedom to simply be, very seriously. However, it is your right to think what you like, which in this country you are allowed to do.

Think on this though people.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

As stupid as it was to smuggle in drugs, that take away what little freedom people have, the taking of life is wrong. I abhor Class A drugs, yet I cannot condone a murder by the state.

[Speedy Claire]

I too am a member of Amnesty International but I have a zero tolerance attitude towards drugs. I`ll gladly give my money towards helping innocent victims... women who are stoned to death for having an affair etc. these are victims who`s actions have no consequences on anyone else. In this particular case this guy wasn`t innocent and his actions could have had far reaching consequences on other human beings.

[Ed]

Claire - your earlier post is interesting and thought-provoking, I enjoyed reading (and re-reading) it.

Unlike a stupid, asinine comment on here (see post #50) which despite my best attempts has actually made me angry.

[Jayneflakes]

As stupid as it was to smuggle in drugs, that take away what little freedom people have, the taking of life is wrong. I abhor Class A drugs, yet I cannot condone a murder by the state.

In this particular case this guy wasn`t innocent and his actions could have had far reaching consequences on other human beings.

Sadly, even criminals are mistreated by the Chinese Regime and all people are entitled to proper legal representation under the Declaration of human rights.

Interesting note on Wikipedia about China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China) and its legal system.

A total of 68 crimes are punishable by death; capital offenses include non-violent, white-collar crimes such as embezzlement and tax fraud. Execution methods include lethal injections and shooting. The inconsistent and sometimes corrupt nature of the legal system in mainland China bring into question the fair application of capital punishment there.For those of you not up to speed on International Declaration of Human Rights, try this. As I said, even criminals have rights, despite them often stepping on the rights of those they harm.
Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11



Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

The rest of the Declaration of Human Rights can be found here (http://www.ecpp.co.uk/humanrightsdecl.htm).

[zsv650]

it's alright being all pro human rights and all that but what about the countless thousands the drug trade in general kill's absoloutly no sympathy.

[dizzyblonde]

In all honesty, if it stopped 'x' amount of people getting out of their heads over here, hooked/addicted etc, then so be it. End of the day it cost Britain less to sort out the mess that heroin brings, by it being stopped getting here by China. They did us all a favour. Its a nasty chain of affairs when it comes to that sort of carp. Addiction of that description causes deep misery, to those that take it, to those close to the addict, those that have thing stolen/burgaled to feed said habit. To the NHS that has to sort out the mess and get them off it.
Yes the guy has been made an example of...and even if he had some sort of mental disorder, he still knew what the stuff was...surely?

If I was in his shoes, it would be preferable to be dead than spend time in a Chinese jail or mental establishmentm, if indeed he was so much of a fruit bat.

[5hort5]

I skimmed this thread as I couldn't be arsed, about as arsed as I was when I heard he was on death row and about as arsed as I am now. The world has bigger problems than this bloke and there are better small or personal causes to look at, read and generally spend my time on. Next week no one will give a **** and this thread will be off the bottom of the page.

[ophic]

So instead of burning all the confiscated drugs in the UK, the police should pose as drug dealers, sell the drugs to the drug traffickers, and send them off to China. Problem solved.

[Milky Bar Kid]

In all honesty, if it stopped 'x' amount of people getting out of their heads over here, hooked/addicted etc, then so be it. End of the day it cost Britain less to sort out the mess that heroin brings, by it being stopped getting here by China. They did us all a favour. Its a nasty chain of affairs when it comes to that sort of carp. Addiction of that description causes deep misery, to those that take it, to those close to the addict, those that have thing stolen/burgaled to feed said habit. To the NHS that has to sort out the mess and get them off it.
Yes the guy has been made an example of...and even if he had some sort of mental disorder, he still knew what the stuff was...surely?

If I was in his shoes, it would be preferable to be dead than spend time in a Chinese jail or mental establishmentm, if indeed he was so much of a fruit bat.

Dizzy...+198438589059590596565895990

Ok, I have had some alcohol, so if this is rubbish, I will edit it in the morning.

First of all Ed, I started studying psychology at degree level. Whilst under no circumstances do I proclaim to be a psychologist, I do have a keen interest and an understanding of it. I do accept your comment that I personally don't have experience of the person however, aren't most illnesses defined by the generalisms of that illness????

Secondly, with regards to the comment about not knowing if the guy had smuggled heroin before...I know how the drug trade works. I have no doubt in my mind that he had done this before. Would you give someone you didn't know millions and millions of pounds worth of something and expect them to deliver it??? No, I doubt very much that you would. You would need to trust this person beyond belief to allow them to get their hands on something with such monetary value, even if you weren't driven by greed, which drugs barons are, then you wouldn't.

I have deliberately not expressed an opinion on the death penalty as I myself am undecided on whether or not I agree with it. However, I do tend to agree with both Speedy Claire and Luckypants. On seperate points.

Speedy and I are both in jobs where we see the effect that drug addiction, in particular, heroin, has on people. Both the addict, family and the victims of addicts. I hate drugs. I have a huge interest in the drugs trade and I regularly study it. Drugs kill. they ruin lives of perfectly decent, intelligent human beings. They destroy the lives of the parents/loved ones of the human being that becomes addict to it and in some occasions, it destroys lives of people who have happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. You deal/smuggle drugs. Tough. You take what punishment is handed out to you.

Like Luckypants, I tend to think that your comments on this page are talking about how we, as Britons, see what is right or wrong. We cannot and should not apply this to any other country in the world.

With regards to the "I disagree with the death penalty as I am a Christian and therefore think we should not kill each other" comment, yes, I totally understand. However, when was the last time you met a Chinese person who was a Christian??? We cannot simply criticise the laws of other countries due to our religious beliefs. Just because some of us are Christian, doesn't mean the whole world should be!!

Regarding the access to a psychologist/psychiatrist. At the end of the day, their system dictates that it is irrelevant if they have not been previously diagnosed so whilst it may have pacified the western mob, it would really have been nothing more than a paper exercise!!!

Would you go to Saudi Arabia and steal? No. Why? Because 99.9% of the population are aware that if you are convicted of theft then your hand is chopped off! You go to another country then you live by the rules of that country.

[Spiderman]

i just wanna add

http://hkham.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/hm36drugs-are-bad-posters.jpg

and in case you're wondering what he means...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-AfOhyn_S4

[Ed]

:-#

[timwilky]

Don't worry Ed, your views on capital punishment are well known and I am sure some threads are deliberately posted to bait you. Obviously those who succeed must be masters of their art.;)


As I previously posted, I do not agree with the death sentence. But I also believe every state has the right to uphold their own laws. We know that Asia has to liberal eyed westerners some draconian laws. Anyone visiting most Asian countries are greeted by notices stating drug smuggling is punishable by death. I am therefore not surprised given the ammount of heroin that this guy was carrying that China carried out this execution.

This one act sends a message round the world to anyone thinking about emulation this guys stupidity that the risk is too great. Mission accomplished for the sake of little britain protesting.

[ophic]

Just because some of us are Christian, doesn't mean the whole world should be!!
I'm gonna pick up on this one. It's kinda fundamental to Christianity (and most other religions) that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and Christianity promotes the saving (converting) of others.

So yes, if you are a Christian then you should believe that the whole world should be Christian.

[Ed]

Am coming out of retirement to answer this priceless bit of carp:

I'm gonna pick up on this one. It's kinda fundamental to Christianity (and most other religions) that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and Christianity promotes the saving (converting) of others.

So yes, if you are a Christian then you should believe that the whole world should be Christian.

********, my liege.

I was asked by one poster, peabrain I think it was, to explain why I believe executing people to be fundamentally wrong. So I said that it is based on Christian principles. Peabrain obviously found this offensive or amusing in some way, he decided to ignore my request to explain. I have no problem or embarrassment in saying that I am a Christian, whether on here or anwhere else. I generally dont comment on it though because in the past I have found that it stirs up a hornets nest and I know to leave it alone. But I dont try to convert the Jews either.

And for MBK, I know several Chinese Christians.

I believe that they do have official religion in China - called The Communist Party.

[ophic]

Am coming out of retirement to answer this priceless bit of carp
Slagging a statement without stating why? Not your usual style, Ed.

[Balky001]

Christianity is a recognised religion in China but of course the Government is officially atheist. There are many Christians in China but unlike the West religion does not help form policy which may or may not be a good thing.

Going back to an earlier point, the evidence of whether he'd smuggled before, there was no evidence either way or whether he would have done it again had he got away with it. It's a shame our courts put such emphasis on whether someone has been 'caught' before rather than the specific details of the crime in question. Punitive sentencing is not right but a liberal system gives the wrong impression (and motivation) to all criminals hence why the UK has our useless court system (battering burgulars is a serious offence apparently!).

The Chinese Goverment and judicial system has little compassion or empathy of why someone has broken a law, they just pursue law breakers (unless Communist party offical no doubt and I'm sure they also pursue non-law breakers for political reasons but this is about non-political law breaking) but from their point of view they come down hard and whilst some may get hurt unfairly the vast majority are within a the Chinese communist parties opinion of a safe and controlled enviroment, protected by strong laws and keeping law-abiding citizens from the scourge. I don't necessarily agree with Chinese policy but is ours better overall? We seem to have a nation of victims because the bullies get away with it.

[Ed]

Slagging a statement without stating why? Not your usual style, Ed.

Indeed not. So please read the rest of what I posetd, it explains the earlier comment.

I feel no need to go round saving people, as you put it. If that makes me a bad Christian, well I can live with that:D

Is there no hope for me? Am I a lost cause? Will I ever be tough enough to become one of the hanging and flogging brigade?

Friends, I sincerely trust not:D

[beabert]

Claire - your earlier post is interesting and thought-provoking, I enjoyed reading (and re-reading) it.

Unlike a stupid, asinine comment on here (see post #50) which despite my best attempts has actually made me angry.

Why has it made you angry? Feel free to PM me.

[Ed]

I rather thought that it spoke for itself...:smt069

[ophic]

I feel no need to go round saving people, as you put it. If that makes me a bad Christian, well I can live with that:D
that's fine, most of us aren't perfect :smt080, but whether you actively campaign for something doesn't really affect whether it should be or not. I don't go around punishing bad drivers, yet I believe that bad drivers should be punished.

By Christian standards, not believing in God is a sin, and people should not sin, therefore there should be no sinners in the world. Everyone should be a Christian.

Sin might not be the right word there, as it carries connotations of deliberate choice rather than ignorance, but nevertheless, I mean something that ideally any person should not do.

My original post on the subject was actually in support of why you think you can tell other nations what to do. Basically that the fundamental beliefs of an individual override government policies, national and cultural differences, everything really. And that you're stating your opinion, which is what this thread is about.

[zsv650]

why is religion being brought into this sod off this is china you go there with drugs you pay the price end of.

[ophic]

religion can be brought into anything :D

[yorkie_chris]

By the way, I am not a hippy. I am a human rights campaigner and I take the freedom to simply be, very seriously. However, it is your right to think what you like, which in this country you are allowed to do.

Think on this though people.

As stupid as it was to smuggle in drugs, that take away what little freedom people have, the taking of life is wrong. I abhor Class A drugs, yet I cannot condone a murder by the state.

Yet you see it as more important to defend the causers of misery in foreign lands than the freedoms we once enjoyed here?
Seems a bit cowardly to me.

In all honesty, if it stopped 'x' amount of people getting out of their heads over here, hooked/addicted etc, then so be it.

Where does it say those drugs were heading here? Lets face it China can spare a few peasants OD'ing.


With regards to the "I disagree with the death penalty as I am a Christian and therefore think we should not kill each other" comment, yes, I totally understand. However, when was the last time you met a Chinese person who was a Christian??? We cannot simply criticise the laws of other countries due to our religious beliefs. Just because some of us are Christian, doesn't mean the whole world should be!!

Regarding the access to a psychologist/psychiatrist. At the end of the day, their system dictates that it is irrelevant if they have not been previously diagnosed so whilst it may have pacified the western mob, it would really have been nothing more than a paper exercise!!!

The disagreement with death penalty because you are a christian bit is down to that persons interpretation of what Christian dogma says. Other equally fervent fanatics would say the opposite.

Religion has no place in law IMO.

And no matter if he's got his c0ck in between two dry biscuits. He would still be guilty!

[TazDaz]

The disagreement with death penalty because you are a christian bit is down to that persons interpretation of what Christian dogma says. Other equally fervent fanatics would say the opposite.

True.

People were more fearful of religion in the middle ages and the christians of the time didn't see any issue with crusading around europe and asia, hacking down infidels, or punishing criminals or witches by hanging, drawing, quartering, burning etc.

[Bibio]

as has been said before, if you brake the laws in another country then expect that country to hand out 'their punishment' if that happens to be the death sentence then so be it.

the law in the country is far to soft and people expect others to be the same. i also think that a lot of people in this country have the attitude of 'were british nothing can happen to us'.

we are a p!ss pot small country who is divided into 4 parts that cant even decide what direction we want to go, but have the attitude that we are the 'superior' leading country. with laws that are laughable. we then complain when one of our flock gets sentenced to death for breaking the laws in another country. ppphhhhhfffftttt.....

[yorkie_chris]

True.

People were more fearful of religion in the middle ages and the christians of the time didn't see any issue with crusading around europe and asia, hacking down infidels, or punishing criminals or witches by hanging, drawing, quartering, burning etc.

As terrible as that was, at least it's led to some great doom metal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Qdj7pt7Iw

[ophic]

Religion has no place in law IMO.
Religion is a bad word. However the "fundamental beliefs" of a society provide the basis on which their laws are made. Or in many cases, the fundamental beliefs of the most powerful person within that society.

I actually agree with you - but you have to be careful that without religion you don't lose the moral structure of society. Lob the morals away and you just end up with a machine. Obviously, go too far the other way and you end up with, er... well... Britain.

[sunshine]

People were more fearful of religion in the middle ages and the christians of the time didn't see any issue with crusading around europe and asia, hacking down infidels, or punishing criminals or witches by hanging, drawing, quartering, burning etc.

I agree they didnt have a problem with it then why do people have a problem with it now?

Does anyone really think if we had caught Hitler he should of been allowed to live if your so strongly against the death penalty.

And the point here remains he broke Chinese law, in China, he was killed, im not planning on smuggling drugs anywhere so this case doesnt bother me really.

[yorkie_chris]

Religion is a bad word. However the "fundamental beliefs" of a society provide the basis on which their laws are made. Or in many cases, the fundamental beliefs of the most powerful person within that society.

I actually agree with you - but you have to be careful that without religion you don't lose the moral structure of society. Lob the morals away and you just end up with a machine. Obviously, go too far the other way and you end up with, er... well... Britain.

A very strange set of compromises. Lob the morals and start reading a little red book and you end up with China!

[Bri w]

A life was forcibly extinguished........


Two children have lost their father.......


You can come back at me with "he did it in a country that has the death penalty," or "just think of all the death he was carrying." "we shouldn't interfere with another country's judicial system," or "he wasn't really a head case."

Guilty, yes. Put him in prison for the rest of his life, and in a prison regime that is brutal - that's China's prison regime.

The semantics of the case, and where in the world, I'm not in the least bit interested in. If guilty, lock them up, and preferably a lot longer than we do in this country. But Govt sanctioned execution is MURDER with a different label on it.

Am I a wet liberal? No, I just disagree with the death penalty. I believe sentencing in general, in this country, is far far too weak.

[Speedy Claire]

I understand the point you`re making Bri but was this man thinking of his children when he risked his life by smuggling the heroin? was he thinking of his childrens future? as a drugs dealer and the manager of several "unscrupulous" businesses did he stop to consider that he was putting his children at risk?

I`m not saying it was right to execute him but he should have put his children first.

[yorkie_chris]

Better he's dead than in a Chinese nick, maybe that way his children will put their "loss" behind them and grow up to be people

[davepreston]

I think this guy has just ran outta luck, he has probably been doing it for sometime if he was trusted to carry such a large quantity of drugs. It takes a fair bit of networking before the bosses would have allowed him access to such a large quantity.


sorry mkb dont mean to **** on your chips but you dont know as much as you think especially in the drugs and supply department
as someone who has knowledge of multi million pound anti drug operations i can point to many cases where for example drugs have been put in innocent peoples belongings and then the stuff stolen on the other end to insulate the actual purpatrators, also mules genrally are "filled to the brim" with drugs for maxium return (the human body can carry over a million £ worth in one go) with addional stimulas of threats and intimataion of the persons friends and family, to ensure dilevery
sorry but this is only said to disprove your well intentioned but completely inacurate statement
dave

[Jayneflakes]

Yet you see it as more important to defend the causers of misery in foreign lands than the freedoms we once enjoyed here?
Seems a bit cowardly to me.

Thank you for your comment, however I do have to defend myself from this comment. I can assure you that I have been engaged in the direct action against the use of drugs in both a school setting and as a member of a community. I have also campaigned for human rights in direct conflict with people who frankly do not see me as a human being. I am not a coward and I have the scars to prove it. However I do strongly believe that the Death Penalty is immoral. However I did state that the use of drugs removes freedom and quality of life for addicts.

The basis of freedom of choice and human rights is the right to do as the individual wishes. When the individual starts damaging the rights of other, that individual must be taken to task over this. While human beings will continue to exert control and have a lack of respect for each other, we will have to continue having courts and prisons, but to murder some one is still horribly wrong.

Another thing to look at is the poverty that is all over the world. Poverty can be linked to drug use and sadly that can also be linked to making poverty worse. I wish I had the answers as to how we as a community can make it better, but while we condone the murder of those we know are sick, damaged or anti social, we can not change them. Thus we cannot change society.

Poverty is a major issue in human rights and it is a world wide issue. OK, so one man was caught doing something stupid and immoral, but by condoning his death, we wash our hands of the other crimes against people in China. We can use him to raise the profile of human rights abuses. Maybe his life needed to be examined and the causes of why he did what he did needed to be found.

One other question though, who supplied him, who gave him the contacts and who made the drugs and who made the money from them. Surely catching them is the main concern? The drugs market is one of supply and demand, while there is a demand for them, there will be people who can supply. Again, you are looking at poverty , drugs make money for people who need it and see the risk as worth it.

This issue is so much bigger than just catching one simple man who had problems and tried to male excuses. The big picture is huge and the answers to the problems are still hidden. We live in a society and we need to be responsible for that society.

However, please do not imply that I do not do my part, I am trying just as hard as I can to make a difference both at home here in the UK and abroad. It is a common misconception that human right abuses only happen abroad, we have them here too in the UK.

Take care out there folks and spread some peace in the new year. :thumleft:

[Spiderman]

As an aside, i've put up a poll about the death penalty here http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=144555

[ArtyLady]

Some of you all seem to be more and more sure as this thread has progressed that he was totally in control, was not duped, was not naive. But no one can really say how much his mental illness affected his judgement and actions - it may have done - it may not have done. Had he have had a proper psychiatric assessment (which from what I've read he was entitled to under Chinese Law but was denied) the question may have been answered.

As for the comments about what was he doing travelling on his own etc, well provided a mentally ill person isn't sectioned I would presume they are free to go where like and when they like - I don't think mental illness is a bar to travelling, is it?

[davepreston]

However, please do not imply that I do not do my part, I am trying just as hard as I can to make a difference both at home here in the UK and abroad. It is a common misconception that human right abuses only happen abroad, we have them here too in the UK.

Take care out there folks and spread some peace in the new year. :thumleft:
well this is my point so thanks for making it easier for me to put across
we can tell china what to do when we have sorted ourselves out untill then we have no rights to say anything to anyother country, which in essance makes this thread null and void wooohooo victory is mine lol :rolleyes:

[Spiderman]

well this is my point so thanks for making it easier for me to put across
we can tell china what to do when we have sorted ourselves out untill then we have no rights to say anything to anyother country, which in essance makes this thread null and void wooohooo victory is mine lol :rolleyes:

Well said, so w need to bring troops home, reinstate the previous govts of iraq and afghan and send tony blair to a war crimes tribunal for intentionally lying about WMD. Also we need to hold to account all the secret rendition flights that came or went from this country as well as allowing arms to be sold to israel for their "war" in gaza last year since we sold them weapons that were used against the geneva conventions.

Jeez we got a lot of work to do here aint we?

[Jabba]

I don't think mental illness is a bar to travelling, is it?

Mental illness covers many things, from mild depression to full-on schitzophrenia and more.

No one would suggest that someone with mild depression shouldn't travel. However, the point that some are trying to make is that if he was as mentally ill as his supporters are saying, to the point where his sentance should be influenced, then he shouldn't have been travelling alone. Maybe a member of the family for support and guidance?

[yorkie_chris]

My view:
Why do we think we have the right to lecture other governments about human rights? We're not exactly squeaky-clean ourselves...... invading Iraq on fabricated "evidence" in a dodgy dossier, turning a blind eye to extraordinary rendition from the UK by the US, CCTV cameras watching our every move (legal or otherwise), keeping names of innocent people on criminal databases, compiling a database of the affairs of every new born child in the country...
stuff
Nothing personal, just a dig at the amnesty/reprieve/hippy lot in general. But cheers for the bite ;-)

With the above things going on right here in 'ole blighty, it seems like rather the easy option to spend time criticising a government when you are what 4000 miles away from it's borders.

[ArtyLady]

Mental illness covers many things, from mild depression to full-on schitzophrenia and more. No one would suggest that someone with mild depression shouldn't travel. However, the point that some are trying to make is that if he was as mentally ill as his supporters are saying, to the point where his sentance should be influenced, then he shouldn't have been travelling alone. Maybe a member of the family for support and guidance?

I get what you're saying but I don't think it's that easy.

A friend of mine has a relative with quite severe bipolar disorder. Througout her youth, her 20s and early 30s she seemed fine. She was finally diagnosed when her behaviour changed in her late 30s.

What I'm getting at is this guy may have been bipolar and it been left undiagnosed (especially as he was no longer living at home with family). The fact that people were suggesting to the Chinese authorities that he may have had the condition should never have been ignored.

[Speedy Claire]

I get what you're saying but I don't think it's that easy.

A friend of mine has a relative with quite severe bipolar disorder. Througout her youth, her 20s and early 30s she seemed fine. She was finally diagnosed when her behaviour changed in her late 30s.

What I'm getting at is this guy may have been bipolar and it been left undiagnosed (especially as he was no longer living at home with family). The fact that people were suggesting to the Chinese authorities that he may have had the condition should never have been ignored.

I do agree with you to an extent but for his family to say he was suffering from a mental illness then it must have been diagnosed at some point. That said if it had been diagnosed then it would have been on his medical records... and unfortunately it wasn`t.

[Bri w]

I understand the point you`re making Bri but was this man thinking of his children when he risked his life by smuggling the heroin? was he thinking of his childrens future? as a drugs dealer and the manager of several "unscrupulous" businesses did he stop to consider that he was putting his children at risk?

I`m not saying it was right to execute him but he should have put his children first.

He may well be a selfish father, with no thought for what he's put (putting) his children through but that doesn't stop us from being compassionate about his children and what they went thro' in the run up to his execution.

I used to be all for the death penalty, and was definitely one of the hang 'em high brigade, especially in special circumstances. I read a book written by an inmate on death row. It spoke about the waiting, about the clock watching of time ticking down. And it spoke about his children, and their clock watching. Of knowing he only had hours to live. Then there was a stay of execution. Then the appeal failed and the clock watching began again. The final chapter was from his children, post execution. It was totally, horrendously harrowing.

The death penalty may satisfy elements of society, and the victim's family but the damage to the convicts family is immense and goes on for years.

Lock 'em up for life. Have them doing hard labour to help cover their keep, and contribute back to the society they damaged.

[ArtyLady]

I do agree with you to an extent but for his family to say he was suffering from a mental illness then it must have been diagnosed at some point. That said if it had been diagnosed then it would have been on his medical records... and unfortunately it wasn`t.

Yes but people and family recognised the fact that he behaved strangely when they knew him - maybe he hadn't been diagnosed because he had ended up living rough in Poland (so I read) and all those factors should IMO have been enough to allow for the psychiatric assessment.

[Speedy Claire]

I think people have overlooked the fact that this man was arrested and detained for this crime in 2007. In the 2 years he was in prison his family (including children) did not visit him nor did they have any contact with him. Suddenly in the last week after his fate was announced they suddenly make an effort! They complained that the Chinese did not allow a mental health assessment... why did they not push for this when he was first caught and charged if they were so concerned. I'm sorry, but i think the family left it a little too late to show they were in anyway interested in his fate. Call me cynical but I bet they could make a pretty penny from their story to the papers and just maybe this had something to do with their 2 year too late plea for clemency.

It`s all too easy to hide behind the mask of mental illness when caught for committing a crime... many have done it in this country and got away with it. In the 2 years he was in prison he formed good relationships and actually learnt to speak Chinese, if he was as seriously mentally ill as his family claim then I doubt very much he would have been able to do this. He used the claim I didn`t know what I was doing because it suited him! I doubt he would have used that claim if he had made it thru Chinese customs and sold the Heroin on for vast sums of money! "I did not know what I was doing, why I am I getting all this money" ... call me cynical again but I dont think so!

[Speedy Claire]

Yes but people and family recognised the fact that he behaved strangely when they knew him - maybe he hadn't been diagnosed because he had ended up living rough in Poland (so I read) and all those factors should IMO have been enough to allow for the psychiatric assessment.


His family hadn`t seen him for 3 years so I would dispute their opinion of his mental health status.

[ArtyLady]

Okay you win I'm outta here :smt101

[fizzwheel]

I think people have overlooked the fact that this man was arrested and detained for this crime in 2007.

I think most of the media did to. Must have been a slow news week or lack of anything else to hype up or for the Government to jump on the bandwagon off as well...

[Ed]

Wow, I go out for a run and all hell breaks loose.

Spidey and Jayne, you are both right. There are so many other human rights abuses, both at home and abroad, it's really so painful that here we are almost in 2010, 65 years on from WW2 and yet we seem to have learned nothing.