View Full Version : One for the police on here
Hi all,
Now before I start if this turns into a police bashing thread I'll ask the mods to close it. In no way am I blaming the police, jst wondering what the rules are! :)
My wife is a nurse and one of her colleagues on her way home from a late shift about 10pm was pulled over by an unmarked police car. The officer got out and was in jeans & plain top with only a stab vest (or something similar) on.
He asked the female driver to get out and accompany him to his car as she was doing 36 in a 30. When she asked if they could do it at her car he denied her request and said she HAD to go to his car.
Now...I know there are always two sides but she was alone, at night being stopped by an unknown (sort of) man (unmarked car/no uniform). Could she have refused to get out of the car or would she have faced an arrest?
Sorry for the essay, just wondering what she would have been entitled to do.
Cheers,
Andy
speedplay
03-01-10, 09:09 PM
Did she ask to see any form of I.D?
I'm sure that if she had asked, he could just have showed his warrant card?
he would have to produce a warrant card if asked. she can also ask for another (uniformed) car to attend if she does not believe him. well that is what i would do.
Specialone
03-01-10, 09:18 PM
I know one thing, the two times i have been followed and attepted to be stopped by unmarked police cars, i didnt and they had to follow me to my destination (both from brierley hill in the black country).
One was a CID officer who i had p1ssed off in my Golf GTi, he was waving his warrant card in his windscreen, but i still didnt stop.
Truth is, unless its blues, i aint pulling over and i would recommend a woman doing that as well, especially at night.
TheOnlyNemesis
03-01-10, 09:18 PM
Did she ask to see any form of I.D?
I'm sure that if she had asked, he could just have showed his warrant card?
true, but just about everything can be forged and if you don't really know how a real one looks like. it's not much help
speedplay
03-01-10, 09:22 PM
true, but just about everything can be forged and if you don't really know how a real one looks like. it's not much help
Big metal badge with police on it, in a leather case thingie accompanied by a photocard if I remember rightly.
true, but just about everything can be forged and if you don't really know how a real one looks like. it's not much help
That's what I thought, I wouldn't have a clue what one looks like. The car did have blues etc but was just unmarked.
Just wondering as my wife obviously travels late at night on her own and want to tell her to do the right thing to do!
wOmen have been getting stopped on the a38 by fake unmarked police. The advice by the local police here was to keep driving to a busy public area before stopping.
At work we sometimes have to carry sensitive documents....
We are given a card which reads something like:
The driver of this vehicle is carrying sensitive documents and as such, has been instructed not to open the vehicle. He will drive to the nearest police station with you where the vehicle can then be opened and any business you have with him can be dealt with.
Perhaps something similar could be made for your wife so that if she were to be stopped and felt unsafe she could be escorted to the ploice station where it would be safe to carry out any further business.....
Red Herring
03-01-10, 10:53 PM
First of all you really ought to stop if signaled to do so by a police car. If in a remote location and the police vehicle is unmarked in the very least slow right down and put on your hazards briefly or similar, just to show that you have acknowledged their request, then pull over at the first reasonable opportunity, a garage forecourt or similar is ideal. Just bear in mind that the reason they might be pulling you over could be that there is something wrong with your car or you're approaching some kind of danger,so don't just drive on regardless. Police officers are well aware that lone females (or some blokes for that matter) are nervous about being stopped by unmarked cars at night and they should recognize what you are doing and make allowances.
Once stopped if you are still unsure keep your windows up and doors locked. Ask the officer to identify themselves and why they have stopped you. Again this is common practice and they shouldn't take any offence to that, provided you are polite about it (coppers hate arrogance almost as much as the public ) and if you're still not convinced ask them for their callsign and tell them that you are going to call the police to check. That's not quite as simple as it sounds because most of us don't carry the local police non-emergency number on us, but I would suggest that if the copper hasn't been able to convince you he's real by now it would probably justify calling 999. Whatever you do don't be convinced by any piece of plastic (or metal badge) he holds up to the window, they're two a penny and as has already been suggested how many people know what a real one looks like anyhow. Listen to what they say and watch how they behave, a real copper will understand your concerns and work with you.
As a general tip unmarked "crime" cars are very rarely single crewed, traffic cars can be but the officer should then be in uniform (most traffic offences require them to be).
Once you have stopped the officer has very limited power to require you to get out of your vehicle. They might be able to require it if they can show grounds to search you (but that would have to be a female officer in this case), or possibly if they can show it's necessary for them to search the vehicle or to test/inspect something (handbrake, seatbelt etc) but they're on thin ice. Sometimes they will use the excuse that you need to get out of the vehicle on safety grounds, either because of where the vehicle is, or because they are worried that you might drive off. If they use the first point out that they stopped you there in the first place and offer to move somewhere else, if the second offer to give them the ignition keys. Either way they have no power to make you sit in their car unless they are arresting you. If they do ask you to and don't give an explanation ask for one. I frequently sit "customers" in the back of my car whilst speaking with them. It's far easier to write things down in the car, especially in the dark or rain, and if you're got to fill in and explain various forms (read tickets) much more efficient. Also makes for a far more interesting conversation when you punch the details they gave you into the MDT and a completely different mug shot comes up on the screen as happened to me Christmas Day.... which is also why we keep the child locks on!
What he said but in much more detail ---^
All Officers will have their warrent card on the or force ID they will show it to you if you ask. As he was in plain clothes I would have thought he would have offered it anyway.
If you feel that its not a police car or a real officer then either drive to a busy place or the local police station. You will know if they are real as I am sure after a while marked police cars will attend.
Von Teese
03-01-10, 11:22 PM
I would have stopped and told the officer that I wanted to proceed to the nearest police station because I would want to varify his warrant card. A fake one will not open the doors of the nick!!
There are a number of abductions and rapes that occur in exactly the above circumstances and I would definately refuse to go into the car with a stranger on the side of the road.
I have seen a couple of vehicles that had been fitted with blue lights and have prosecuted a few young lads for impersonating a police officer.
Red Herring
03-01-10, 11:30 PM
Of course, if we really want to get technical a police officers has to be in uniform to require a vehicle to stop...... and I would suggest a stab vest over jeans/T shirt would be struggling to show that.
Milky Bar Kid
03-01-10, 11:39 PM
[QUOTE=Von
MattCollins
04-01-10, 02:57 AM
.... which is also why we keep the child locks on!
That is a real scumbag method amongst others used by a minority of cops in this part of the world to threaten and intimidate. I have politely declined that offer a couple of times.
EDIT: PS. I am not out to offend anyone. :)
Fizzy Fish
04-01-10, 07:17 AM
This is interesting - I would have just assumed they were an legit unmarked car if they had blue lights/siren. Too naturally trusting me! Cheers for the info
Von Teese
04-01-10, 08:28 AM
This is interesting - I would have just assumed they were an legit unmarked car if they had blue lights/siren. Too naturally trusting me! Cheers for the info
That's why they do it hon, if there weren't any trusting souls that would believe them, pull over and get in their cars, the scumbags wouldn't bother to try it.
Also poice using unmarked vehicles wouldn't work either.
Superb information, i will be doing a laminated sign today to leave in the car incase my other half ever gets stopped.
Thanks for all the help/advice. I think I'll advise my wife to drive to the nearest police station, after stopping to advise the officer what shes doing, if she gets stopped.
Quiff Wichard
04-01-10, 09:09 AM
anyone could buy a stab vest and make ID up..
dont get out of the car.. lower the window slightly so you can speak to the "officer" but they cant get there hands in - not even fingers.. and tell them you will go to a police station or residential area etc..
I wouldnt get out of the car for a lone officer down a dark country lane- unless she was fit !
Red Herring
04-01-10, 09:35 AM
That is a real scumbag method amongst others used by a minority of cops in this part of the world to threaten and intimidate. I have politely declined that offer a couple of times.
EDIT: PS. I am not out to offend anyone. :)
Care to expand on that? Sitting someone in the back of a police car to interview them or issue process it a perfectly legitimate action provided you don't force them to do it, and if you're in the situation where you are likely to want to force them into the back of a car they'd be wearing handcuffs and nicked! Most forces have a policy that the child locks will be kept on in all patrol cars. That's because we ever so sometimes put people there who might not want to come with us, and the risk and consequences of them opening a door whilst moving far exceed the odd occasion when an officer would be rude enough not to open a door for someone...
If someone has sat in the rear of the car voluntarily and they decide they want to get out then the only thing that will stop me opening the door for them is if I've arrested them. Failure to do so could cost me my job, and if you think I, or any other copper for that matter, think you or any other person we have stopped and not arrested is worth that you are much mistaken.
Of course it does beg the question why you might have been invited to sit in the back of a patrol car a couple of times?
Thanks for all the help/advice. I think I'll advise my wife to drive to the nearest police station, after stopping to advise the officer what shes doing, if she gets stopped.
That's what I would think would be best too - but how many 'local police stations' does one person know?! E.G., unless I was in my home town I wouldn't have a clue where the nearest police station was, and I doubt if my Mrs even knows how to get to the local one! :p
I think that copper who asked the lone female to get in the back of his unmarked car must be pretty insensitive / unintelligent to be honest. Presumably he was a real copper but he should understand her reasons for not wanting to co-operate in that scenario.
I would certainly hope that my Mrs would not get in an unmarked car at the request of an un-uniformed 'police officer' but it is a difficult one for sure. On the one hand you wouldn't want to get done for failing to stop but on the other hand you can't be too careful these days :reaper:
Red Herring I love your 'coppers hate arrogance almost as much as the public' statement :D I hope that was deliberately ambiguous!
EssexDave
04-01-10, 10:54 AM
I'm fairly sure they are allowed to acknowledge they are being pulled and pull over at a safe place for them (eg services, local nick etc)
Not sure where I heard this but I'm fairly sure it was somewhere reputable.
Von Teese
04-01-10, 11:22 AM
if you think I, or any other copper for that matter, think you or any other person we have stopped and not arrested is worth that you are much mistaken.
+1
Hmmm my job and pension vs false imprisonment...let me decide :confused:
and further to this, we had a guy who did custody visits at our station. He got himself a nice BMW, fitted it with blues in the grill and then carried around his "ID" card that he was issued with by our force. He got himself an el-cheapo high vis vest and then proceeded to stop vehicles.
Whilst this guy was doing it....well, because he's an idiot, you will get some who have sinister reasons for it.
I would not get out of my vehicle unless completely satisfied it was a real cop and would prbably drive to the nearest station.
ahhhhh Dangerous Daves new hobby has been un-earthed :p
BournemouthBen
04-01-10, 12:09 PM
Is Red Herring a Police officer or similar?
Some interesting stuff here... it never occurred to me as a potential problem?
What about being stopped on a Motorcycle? If I were a young lady (I'm not, I'm a young lad!), I wouldn't have any windows to do up, or doors to lock? Would it be the same thing, drive to somewhere safe and then stop for the 'officer'.
Ben.
Milky Bar Kid
04-01-10, 12:13 PM
Is Red Herring a Police officer or similar?
Some interesting stuff here... it never occurred to me as a potential problem?
What about being stopped on a Motorcycle? If I were a young lady (I'm not, I'm a young lad!), I wouldn't have any windows to do up, or doors to lock? Would it be the same thing, drive to somewhere safe and then stop for the 'officer'.
Ben.
Yes he is, as am I and VT on this thread.
You would really have to aknowledge that they wanted you to stop or you run the risk of being booked with fail to stop...or having a squad of Traffic Cars about to TPAC you....
For those that have come across fake unmarked cars with blue lights, how convincing have they been?
I have been stopped twice by unmarked cars and once blue flashed at, but he didn't stop me.
1st was in daylight Black BMW 3 series, remember the altenating flashing headlights
2nd was at night silver Volvo and the amount of flashing blue lights lit the whole place up, both of these I wasn't in any doubt that they were real police, and the Officers were in uniform.
Another time was a Nissan Primera, officer not in uniform - I went home & called the local Police station and asked about the reg number. They didn't want to confirm for data protection reasons but more or less said that yes it was a police car.
Red Herring
04-01-10, 03:31 PM
Is Red Herring a Police officer or similar?
Some interesting stuff here... it never occurred to me as a potential problem?
What about being stopped on a Motorcycle? If I were a young lady (I'm not, I'm a young lad!), I wouldn't have any windows to do up, or doors to lock? Would it be the same thing, drive to somewhere safe and then stop for the 'officer'.
Ben.
Hi Ben, yes I am.
Lets not start getting paranoid here, fake unmarked police cars are extremely rare, especially any that have any sinister intention and unless you're working for a security firm moving large amounts of money you're very unlikely to ever bump into one.
What might happen is that you could come across a rather keen young officer in a CID car who took exception to your wheelie/speed/hairstyle and wants to have a quick word, in which case if you're the slightest bit concerned follow the advice that has been given. Chances are if you do he will end up in more hot water than you. Alternatively it could be a real unmarked traffic car and trust me, you'll have no worries or doubts if that is the case. They do this for a living.
Red Herring
04-01-10, 03:35 PM
Red Herring I love your 'coppers hate arrogance almost as much as the public' statement :D I hope that was deliberately ambiguous!
It was...:D After I wrote it I did wonder if anyone would bite....it was obviously buried a bit deep in the text?
BournemouthBen
04-01-10, 04:33 PM
Of course we're all so well behaved on the .Org that there shouldn't actually be any reason to ever, ever stop us...
timwilky
04-01-10, 04:37 PM
Question
would you open your door to 4 men in dark clothing trying to kick in your front door at 3am, just because they said they were coppers?
No! neither would my dad.
He phoned the old bill to be told they were genuinely old bill
BournemouthBen
04-01-10, 04:39 PM
Question
would you open your door to 4 men in dark clothing trying to kick in your front door at 3am, just because they said they were coppers?
No! neither would my dad.
He phoned the old bill to be told they were genuinely old bill
Seems fair to me. 'better to be safe than sorry'
Owenski
04-01-10, 04:58 PM
Yeah its when they bust in through your door, and pin you to the floor:phone still in hand that you really lose.
Not a dig, but it makes me laugh on those cop shows when police jump someone "using the element of suprise" the person is initially submitting and saying ok ok ok but then when the police use force the person naturally resists the attack. Meaning the police have to use even more force to "sub-du" thier suspect, it just seems ironic like a vicous circle.
OBviously if force wasnt used, the police would never arrest anyone so I know why you have to do it, it just makes me laugh.
Red Herring
04-01-10, 05:58 PM
Question
would you open your door to 4 men in dark clothing trying to kick in your front door at 3am, just because they said they were coppers?
No! neither would my dad.
He phoned the old bill to be told they were genuinely old bill
It depends how strong the front door is, might be riskier not to open the door...:D
sunshine
04-01-10, 06:43 PM
to the op my mrs finishes at 2am half hour before im ment to, she got pull by an undercover cop once i was able to leave early and she txt me the road she was on, i got there on the sv in full bike gear, walked over to cop, he jumped in his car and called for back up. 3 uniform cars responded and they was going to try to do my for intimidating a police officer! she was being pulled for doing 33 in a 30 and they dropped all charges because i was protecting my mrs and i argued the speed was within rounding error
madcockney
04-01-10, 09:14 PM
Would have made life interesting if it was a Customs knock and the police said it wasnt them wouldnt it? But then again I dont think Ive ever done a knock at that unreasonable an hour :p
I used to know a few customs officers and they used to tell me that the police used to use them whenever they could as they had more powers than them, and didn't need the same amount of proof.
There are good and bad police officers as there are members of the public. Some of the ones you see on these UK police programmes make me cringe. They turn what could be an amicably resolved situation into something far worse and to me they sometimes come over as arrogant. Then you see others that go way out of their way to resolve the situation, or try to, even when they have to nick the person, so that the situation is resolved with as little hostility as possible.
Incidentally I have never been stopped on a motoring matter by an un dressed whoops :grin: un uniformed officer, but I have been questioned by "jeans, t shirt and unshaven" on other matters when they have been investigating a crime and they have almost always left a card with their name, police contact details, etc on, even when presenting their warrant card.
yorkie_chris
04-01-10, 10:19 PM
Question
would you open your door to 4 men in dark clothing trying to kick in your front door at 3am, just because they said they were coppers?
No! neither would my dad.
He phoned the old bill to be told they were genuinely old bill
Pulling a stunt like that you should expect to get shot!
timwilky
05-01-10, 10:14 AM
It depends how strong the front door is, might be riskier not to open the door...:D
200 year old oak door about 3 inch thick. It was nothing sinister, a cyanide gas leak further up the river valley and concern the gas would follow the river, my folks never heard them knocking and were woken when plod thought they may have had a whiff of gas and decided they needed to check.
On this exact topic it was interesting to see this in the news today:
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Robbers-posing-police-stole-cash-raid-Leicestershire-nightclub/article-1674943-detail/article.html
Doh.
grh1904
05-01-10, 12:39 PM
Sounds to me as if the guy mentioned in the first post was a bit "officious".
I've just spent 7 months in plain clothes on an offender management unit dealing with the most prolific of individuals, so there were quite a few stops.
I agree with what was said before about the location of the stops etc, if it is a lone female an acknowledgement (eg put on hazards, slow down) to give an indication that you know they're there and then drive "slowly" to a well lit public area.
This would show that you're not failing to stop & even if it were called in as such the arrival of several marked cars would put the lone females mind at rest and she could stop before any traffic management controls are put in place.
A couple of years or so ago I was involved in an operation that ran for several weeks & was crewed up with a traffic cop in an unmarked BMW, and we had a similar situation.
Report of possible burglary in progress, house a mile or so out of town on country lane, 4am, we know it to be very very quiet there at that time of morning, single offender seen to make off in a small hatchback type car.
As we approach a small hatchback car is going in the other direction so we turn round and pull it. I got out and went up to the car, the female realising it was 2 men in civvies quickly wound her window up only leaving a couple of inches to talk through. Warrant cards shown etc, but you could tell she was very nervy of the whole situation.
It's all to do with perception. If I & my crew mate had been pushy, insistent she got out and into our vehicle etc this would only have un-nerved her even more. We just made it clear that any attempt to leave would be taken as hostility but made an effort to crack a joke, reasure her & we even invited her to call the Police at the time my colleague was on the radio (making sure she saw & heard him do this) telling the control room to expect a call from a female in a make/model/vrm on B1234 etc.
A pnc of the vehicle with the radio turned up so that she could hear her own name & address given back as the registered keeper is one easy way to reasure any lone female, it's not the sort of thing that can faked, especailly now-a-days with all the relevant insurance details also on the pnc.
As it was, by the time a marked car arrived she was more than happy to wind the window down & talk to us.
It's common sense at the end of the day, yes it may be normal practice not to have the radio turned up to such an extent that the person you have stopped can hear it (helps prevent them giving false details etc), but in this situation it gives the lone female confidence that we are who we say we are.
I, and the colleagues who I work with are also aware that the person we stop/speak to, this could be the first time they've ever really had to speak to the Police so first impressions count.
Littlepeahead
05-01-10, 04:07 PM
So do the police have to have a legitimate reason for stopping you? I got pulled over on my way home from the station last year. They'd been following me for a good 2 miles and I knew they were there. They asked if I'd been drinking and I confirmed that I'd had 1/3 of a pint of lager 6 hours earlier and nothing since. So of course it came up negative. But when I asked why they'd topped me they said it was because I got off a late train. No driving problems, no lights not working etc. I really didn't mind, as I had nothing to hide and hate people drink driving, but I'd be interested to know if getting off a late train is enough of a reason to stop someone.
Red Herring
05-01-10, 05:44 PM
No reason needed, a police officer in uniform can stop any vehicle being driven on the road. They can then require the driver to identify themselves, produce their documents, and examines the vehicle for construction and use offences.
A breath test can only be required if you have committed a moving traffic offence, been involved in an accident or the officer has reasonable grounds to suspect you've been drinking (this can come from your manner of driving, or the simple question "have you had anything to drink Sir?")
Just spoke to my brother in law..(police men) ..Just ask for ID, name & badge number. Then if u got Ur mobile with u as most people do. ring the police station or 999 & tell them what happened (job done)
or the simple question "have you had anything to drink Sir?")
If he asked that of Littlepeahead, I would suspect he'd been drinking :lol:
Red Herring
06-01-10, 06:40 AM
If he asked that of Littlepeahead, I would suspect he'd been drinking :lol:
Who, Littlepeahead or the officer....?
I once stopped a car being driven through the town centre late at night without any lights on.
"Hi there, do you know why I have stopped you"
Very pretty young lady replies.... "Because I've been drinking i suppose".
And she had been, and yes she was, and yes I did....... It's that easy sometimes.
Littlepeahead
06-01-10, 09:33 AM
I did get stopped a few months later and that was because my high level brake light wasn't working, it had packed up that afternoon so I hadn't been able to get a bulb.
As soon as they asked if I knew why I'd been pulled over I said that my bulb warning light was showing on my dashboard so was that why? Again they asked if I had been drinking. This time I said, 'Well I managed one mouthful of wine at home before my husband and his annoying mates begged for a lift into town because they are all too lazy to walk'. I felt there was no point in lying and I knew I was well under the limit.
Who, Littlepeahead or the officer....?
I'm not sure LPH's avatar is a self portrait, but they could be ;)
Littlepeahead
06-01-10, 02:23 PM
They are indeed my size 3 feet. But if you look at my pic in the 'photos of us when we were kids' thread you can see that a few others were confused.
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