View Full Version : An Open Letter to Gordon Brown
Spiderman
06-01-10, 12:40 AM
We, the undersigned, call on Prime Minister Gordon Brown to urgently use all available diplomatic means to bring an immediate and unconditional end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip. A year after the assault on Gaza, in which almost 1,400 Palestinians were killed and more than 5,300 injured, civilians continue to pay a devastating price.
Israel’s blockade of Gaza means the denial of a broad range of goods, which include food, industrial, educational and medical items, all deemed “nonessential”, for a population who, after decades of occupation and now in their third year under blockade, are struggling to rebuild their lives in the wake of the widespread destruction. With critical reconstruction materials are not entering Gaza, the urgently needed rebuilding of medical facilities, homes and schools is impossible. A recent Medical Aid for Palestinians survey of the most vulnerable families in Gaza showed that a mere 2% had been able to repair their homes from damage incurred during last winter’s bombardment.
Across the Gaza Strip, over 3,530 homes were completely destroyed and more than 2,850 severely damaged. Tens of thousands more homes suffered structural damage. Families now face the winter rains and cold surviving in tents or in the rubble of their destroyed homes. The blockade is directly compromising one of the people of Gaza’s most basic human rights; the right to health. Israeli authorities continue to routinely, and without explanation, block or delay the entry of medical supplies and equipment, leaving hospitals less able to cope. As hospitals falter, patients seeking care outside the Gaza Strip are routinely denied exit for life-saving medical treatment; in just one month this year four people died while waiting for permission to leave. [source: United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), September 2009]
Outside the hospitals, a public health disaster looms: with no spare parts for maintenance or repair, water and sewage treatment facilities cannot function. The World Health Organisation reports that over 80% of Gaza’s water is no longer safe to drink, while up to 80 million cubic litres of untreated or partially treated sewage is being dumped into the sea daily.
The British Government has stated that Israel’s blockade must end, recognising its profound impact on civilians. We welcome this statement, but it must be backed up by meaningful diplomatic action. We call upon the UK Government to make urgent representations to the Government of Israel and to redouble its efforts to bring about an immediate and unconditional end to the blockade of Gaza.
This letter has been signed by, amongst others:
Professor Ilan Pape
Professor Avi Shlaim
Ahdaf Soueif
Ben Elton
Alexi Sayle
Noam Chomsky
Jeremy Hardy
Baroness Helena Kennedy
Jeremy Corbyn MP
Esther Freud
David Morrissey
Richard Horton
Juliet Stevenson
Lord David Steel
Nadim Sawalha
John Williams
Jeff Mirza
David Calder
Sir Iain Chalmers
Chris Doyle
John Austin MP
Richard Burden MP
John McHugo
The Revd Stephen Griffith MBE
John Hemming MP
Imran Khan
Peter Kilfoyle MP
Clive Betts MP
Derek Wyatt MP
Michael Mansfield QC
Colin Breed MP
Pauline McNeill MSP
I for one am disgusted (but not surprised) at how little press coverage this issue is getting on mainstream media.
There was a full page print of this letter in the Guardian a couple weeks ago but that was a paid for "advert" not cos the Guardian chose to run this as a story.
Yet a metal sign gets nicked from auschwitz and the press wanna cover that instead.
Anyway i'd like to urge al of you who give an damn and are into signing online petitions to please go an add you name to the petition.
This isnt about Israel or Palestine in my eyes, its about human beings.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/map-gaza/
I for one am disgusted (but not surprised) at how little press coverage this issue is getting on mainstream media.
Just take a look at what religion the main media moguls in the UK traditionally are. Then look to the USA and check out what religion the main media moguls are over there... and there's your answer.
The "I feel sorry for the jews because they had a rough time during WW2" attitiude has to end. This issue is not about Jew vs Muslim, it's about Israeli vs Arab, and the way the west (USA and UK in particular) has backed up the Israelis with no regard for the rights of innocent Palestinians is beyond the pale. It's not like our hands aren't full of Palestinian blood, as it's the UK who handed Palestine over to Israel back in 1948, walking away and leaving a defenceless people to the might of the US backed and newly armed Israel.
Israel really are blatantly taking the mickey with their appaling record on human rights and their occupation of the West Bank. They have displaced millions of honest and hard working Palestinians and treat them like dirt, blockading the Gaza Strip is the latest in a long line of human rights abuses they are guilty of.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 01:07 AM
Thank god you know some of the truths here mate. Rupert Murdoch for one, once said "Israel first, right or wrong, Israel first."
Now thats a nice free press attitude aint it. However its refreshing to see just how many Jewish groups are against this disgusting behaviour by their politicians and military.
Edit: Nice one Stu :)
barwel1992
06-01-10, 01:19 AM
signed as well
beabert
06-01-10, 01:39 AM
Just finished watching the ross kemp in gaza documentary, i agree. Isreal are just making the situation worse.
sunshine
06-01-10, 02:20 AM
this is a political minefield, the British goverment have asked the Israelis to end the blockage but Israel isnt a country we cant walk into tell them how to run there country like Iraq, theres a chance theres a media blackout on this story we dont know how much is being done. and i agree the blockage should end but the UK and US cant police the world, and solve every problem the UN finds.
Just my views i look forward to reading any flaming you give me for my comments as always
BanannaMan
06-01-10, 04:29 AM
Surely you jest gentlemen....
Israel can do whatever it wants right now and NATO will turn a blind eye.
We're going to need those valuable Israeli airbases more than ever when the US goes to Yemen! :smt066
Did I mention you kids from the UK will get to come play as well??? :smt070
It's the new Afghanistan, don't you know...:smt045
You can expect Israel to get worse in the coming days.
Fizzy Fish
06-01-10, 07:59 AM
I guess you don't hear much about it because 'news' means just that - new information. Old stuff that has been news but hasn't changed isn't 'news' anymore.
The news channels did actually do a big thing on the Gaza situation on the one year anniversary of the blockade the other day, but I guess there isn't enough to sustain interest froma broadcasting perspective the rest of the time.
Doesn't change the fact that the situation there sucks though! Totally disproportionate response...
We're going to need those valuable Israeli airbases more than ever when the US goes to Yemen! :smt066
Did I mention you kids from the UK will get to come play as well??? :smt070
It's the new Afghanistan, don't you know...:smt045
And for when we nuke Iran:smt037
maviczap
06-01-10, 09:30 AM
Watching Ross Kemp with his trip to Gazza the other night was a real eye opener. Isreal's blockade of Gazza, seem to me to be purely to get rid of Hamas, by bringing the people to their knees.
But all it seems to me to be doing is strengthening the cause.
Seems to me that when the UK does the same thing to Afganistan or Iraq to get rid of Al-Qaeda there are no letters.........when another country follows the same ways though i.e. Israel against Palestine to get rid of Hamas is frowned upon.
At the same time I have not seen anyone sign a petition for the young children or women that Hamas use as a shield for when performing their "acts of good will"
One has to protect themselves and as we do with Iraq & Afganistan similarly other countries do with what they consider a risk.
the_lone_wolf
06-01-10, 09:48 AM
One has to protect themselves and as we do with Iraq & Afganistan similarly other countries do with what they consider a risk.
Given that the risk to Israeli lives posed by Quasam rocket attacks is broadly similar to that posed by domestic fireworks within Israel, do you consider 1000+ civilian deaths and an economic blockade designed to prevent the most basic reconstruction "self defence":confused:
The Iraq/Afghanistan analogy is flawed, the UK/US forces are not preventing essential supplies entering those countries, they aren't engaging in deliberate attacks on civilian and UN targets to hurt the local population and they certainly aren't claiming the occupied land as their own...
Given that the risk to Israeli lives posed by Quasam rocket attacks is broadly similar to that posed by domestic fireworks within Israel, do you consider 1000+ civilian deaths and an economic blockade designed to prevent the most basic reconstruction "self defence":confused:
The Iraq/Afghanistan analogy is flawed, the UK/US forces are not preventing essential supplies entering those countries, they aren't engaging in deliberate attacks on civilian and UN targets to hurt the local population and they certainly aren't claiming the occupied land as their own...
Where as the risk of a terror attack in the uk is higher?? Please!! The risk is the same yet the response is to send 50000 troops. You can cut the data whichever way you want in these cases.
timwilky
06-01-10, 10:47 AM
Surely you jest gentlemen....
Israel can do whatever it wants right now and NATO will turn a blind eye.
We're going to need those valuable Israeli airbases more than ever when the US goes to Yemen! :smt066
Did I mention you kids from the UK will get to come play as well??? :smt070
It's the new Afghanistan, don't you know...:smt045
You can expect Israel to get worse in the coming days.
Whilst it would not surprise me, one thing would be guaranteed as a result. Israel would be the only country in the middle east friendly towards the west.
Given that Al Queda are reputed to be behind many attacks in/from Yemen I guess the gung ho would say a military strike is justified. Far better to let the covert people do their job in private, without stirring up a hornets nest amongst the oil supplies
the_lone_wolf
06-01-10, 10:56 AM
Where as the risk of a terror attack in the uk is higher?? Please!! The risk is the same yet the response is to send 50000 troops. You can cut the data whichever way you want in these cases.The two situations aren't in the slightest way comparable, why do you think they are?
Once we've occupied Afghanistan illegally for 40 years and treated the local population as 2nd class citizens, then wondered why they resent us and attack us, then we can launch a full scale military attack killing one hundred civilians for every one of our troops and deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure despite universal condemnation from the rest of the world, call it self defence then maintain a level of squalor in the country to rival the worst ****holes around the world by refusing to allow essential medical and building supplies into the country in order to punish the civilian population further for electing a group who resist our illegal occupation/subjugation, then we'll complain how everybody is anti UK forces and dismiss criticism of our actions as "Pro-Afghanistan propaganda".
Perhaps then the situations might be comparable...
Or perhaps you can then justify why The UK loaded the ships with the European Jews sent them there in an anti-Jew and anti western location and gave them what they required to build a country in what before was occupied UK land.
Maybe at the same time you can answer the question of why British ships opened fire and killed a few hundreds people from those ships before they reached that destination.
Also while you are there try and answer why you occupied Cyprus then screwed the people there, cause riots that send you packing but not before Turkey invaded the north of the island.
Overall stop criticising what happens in other countries the moment you are done with your games, leave the people there to sort it out themselves and then have the nerve to comment:))
ironic isn't it that wherever you set foot it's now in a worst state than it was before?
yorkie_chris
06-01-10, 11:44 AM
Yet a metal sign gets nicked from auschwitz and the press wanna cover that instead.
Oy vey, think about the plight ov my people...
F***in hook nosed hypocrites...
the_lone_wolf
06-01-10, 11:55 AM
ironic isn't it that wherever you set foot it's now in a worst state than it was before?I'll have to check my holiday snaps but I don't remember doing any of the things you mention...
But while we're on the subject of attacking people who played no part in something that happened years before they were born it seems as good a time as any to point out that the Jews killed Jesus...:rolleyes:
Oy vey, think about the plight ov my people...
F***in hook nosed hypocrites...
No need to generalise now:) not all British are gay neither all welsh shag sheep LOL
yorkie_chris
06-01-10, 12:08 PM
Of course there is a need to generalise, if it wasn't for stereotypes I'd only be able to offend one or 2 people at once :-P
I'm not a roman mum, I'm a kike, a yid, a heebie, a hook-nose, I'm kosher mum, I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!
Oy vey, think about the plight ov my people...
F***in hook nosed hypocrites...
No need to generalise now:) not all British are gay neither all welsh shag sheep LOL
No idea why my post appeared again lol
madcockney
06-01-10, 01:05 PM
Many years ago I used to go to Israel frequently. Israel and what used to be called Palestine is a complex situation.
When I first went to work I had a colleague who had been stationed out there (Palestine) in the army but never had a good word to say about the Israelis. As far as he was concerned they were terrorists who had killed many of his comrades and British civilians as well as Arabs. Don't forget in Arab Palestinian eyes Israel stole their land, and in many Israeli eyes if the land was theirs in biblical times it belongs to them now so all the land occupied now and more is rightfully theirs. I don't really think the last statement stands up to scrutiny, if so the Romans, now Italians, own a large chunk of the UK. (Israel was created by UN mandate though many Jews were being smuggled there immediately after WWII.)
When I was in Israel all those years ago many Israelis designated themselves as first generation, being those that were born there or of parents there before the creation of Israel, and the following second generation. Many of these first generation had sympathy with the Arabs and even had Arab friends, but would state it's the second generation that is causing the problems. There was certainly an arrogance among some Israelis that because of what happened to them during WWII they had a right to do whatever they thought, and then others that disagreed and said that they were behaving the same as the Nazi's had done to them.
The Palestinians have brought a lot on themselves and it is true that many Arab countries do not want Palestinians. The Arab countries and latterly the Palestinians were fighting what they thought was their rights, though I may not agree with their methods, I have to respect that right. Aren't they doing, in their eyes exactly the same as what many of the Jews in Palestine were doing to produce the creation of Israel. The only long term solution is for two states and that both respect each other. Getting there is the problem.
I think that the Israelis (but not all) have brought a lot on themselves by treating the Palestinians the way they do. They appear in many cases to treat them as parasites and in this country if we treated animals the way Palestinians have been treated we would be in court. They do not seem to understand that if you treat others with respect, as human beings with human rights, that you are far more likely to get a resolution.
Why did Hamas get greater support than Fata? Well if you read many documents on the matter they would indicate that FATA though less extreme in later years, was corrupt and did not do much for their Palestinian brethren at the local level. Hamas more extreme, but did a lot for the local population. So you tell me who would you support if living in the Gazza if being bombarded, your children and your loved ones being killed, no work, little food, no hospitals as such, but there is this group that try to make life a bit better and that you have some food, etc.
So what can we do to help the situation. Through our countries and the EU persuade Fata to end all forms of corruption and to do more for the local population. Put money into the areas to provide food, create jobs, hospitals, etc. Persuade the Israelis to change their ways and to also respect the Palestinians as human beings. Hopefully this would persuade Hamas to change its ways with regards to attacking Israel, and if not for Palestinians to transfer their allegiance to Fata and more willing to live alongside Israel.
What can the USA do to help this. Years ago it was politically more difficult, but financially Israel was more dependent on USA finance. If the finance had been threatened to have been pulled then I think the Israelis would have listened more, and may be implemented the foundations for peace.The USA can still do a lot but may be more these days by being more outspoken about Israel, and showing more consideration for the Palestinians.
The Israelis did much for occupied territory which you have to respect them for. For instance they transposed barren land to fertile and made it very productive.
The whole thing to a certain degree reminds me of an early cowboy movie (the only good indian is a dead one) transposing the indian for Israelis and Palestinians.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Here endeth the gospel according to MC. :razz:
Spiderman
06-01-10, 02:38 PM
I guess you don't hear much about it because 'news' means just that - new information. Old stuff that has been news but hasn't changed isn't 'news' anymore.
The news channels did actually do a big thing on the Gaza situation on the one year anniversary of the blockade the other day, but I guess there isn't enough to sustain interest froma broadcasting perspective the rest of the time.
Doesn't change the fact that the situation there sucks though! Totally disproportionate response...
Fair points oh Fizzy Fishy one, i guess i missed the news channels doing the 1 yr anniversary thing then.
Seems to me that when the UK does the same thing to Afganistan or Iraq to get rid of Al-Qaeda there are no letters.........when another country follows the same ways though i.e. Israel against Palestine to get rid of Hamas is frowned upon.
At the same time I have not seen anyone sign a petition for the young children or women that Hamas use as a shield for when performing their "acts of good will"
One has to protect themselves and as we do with Iraq & Afganistan similarly other countries do with what they consider a risk.
Seriously, thank god TLW was here to post a sensible response to your drivel.
The two situations aren't in the slightest way comparable, why do you think they are?
Once we've occupied Afghanistan illegally for 40 years and treated the local population as 2nd class citizens, then wondered why they resent us and attack us, then we can launch a full scale military attack killing one hundred civilians for every one of our troops and deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure despite universal condemnation from the rest of the world, call it self defence then maintain a level of squalor in the country to rival the worst ****holes around the world by refusing to allow essential medical and building supplies into the country in order to punish the civilian population further for electing a group who resist our illegal occupation/subjugation, then we'll complain how everybody is anti UK forces and dismiss criticism of our actions as "Pro-Afghanistan propaganda".
Perhaps then the situations might be comparable...
Thank you mate, another person who can clearly see with their own eyes and not just believe the nonsense propaganda the israeli war machine spis out to the press to regurgitate over and over again.
...There was certainly an arrogance among some Israelis that because of what happened to them during WWII they had a right to do whatever they thought, and then others that disagreed and said that they were behaving the same as the Nazi's had done to them.
And another very good post. I selected this bit as its very pertinent. There is still a huge group in israel who feel this way and are disgusted by the zionists who have taken power in the govt and military and are using the jewish faith to further their illegal activities. Using it almost as a sheild against criticism cos with the criticism comes that old chestnut "you're anti-semitic" if you say that.
No right minded jewish person of faith and the operative word here is faith, not just your average card carrying "jew" agrees with how their govt is behaving towards their neighbours.
here are just a few examples:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3457/3205222740_d182e52116.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4lXNmRERykM/SW-ozXsIlKI/AAAAAAAAABk/sTIkbWDf0Yg/s400/Jews+Free+Palestine.jpg
http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090110/025.jpg
And finally, listen to what a very well respected politician of this country and a jew himself has to say about israel and some of those serving in its govt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=related
gettin2dizzy
06-01-10, 03:28 PM
There was a full page print of this letter in the Guardian a couple weeks ago but that was a paid for "advert" not cos the Guardian chose to run this as a story.
Yet a metal sign gets nicked from auschwitz and the press wanna cover that instead.
Today's Guardian lead story was:
Britain faces snow disruption - LIVE
:lol:
Live?! I've got a window for that.
Drivel? Sure! Funny that my response to TLW has not been commented on! I guess you are only good for supporting the arguments for what you see as unjust but you fail miserably to acknowledge that it was the uk that created this and still it's the uk that support this.
Maybe you should put your actions where your mouth is and go see how it is there yourself. Plenty of keyboard warriors on this forum these days but none with real life experiences!!
Spiderman
06-01-10, 04:04 PM
Drivel? Sure! Funny that my response to TLW has not been commented on! I guess you are only good for supporting the arguments for what you see as unjust but you fail miserably to acknowledge that it was the uk that created this and still it's the uk that support this.
Maybe you should put your actions where your mouth is and go see how it is there yourself. Plenty of keyboard warriors on this forum these days but none with real life experiences!!
Sorry i didnt think your comments required a response since they are no about the current situation. Yes the UK created israel with their mandate and gave power to known terrorists. However what that has to do with the israeli machine now depriving people of the bare minimums they require to sustain life i dont see.
The UK govt has paid lip service to the issue by demanding that the israelis end this blockade but the israels have ignored their demands.
As as for a keyboard warrior? Hmm, you know nothing of me or my past so please dont assume you do. You spouted drivel and i pulled you up on that. You then went of to talk about history and wondered why i didnt respond. Now i have. Happy?
the_lone_wolf
06-01-10, 04:07 PM
Drivel? Sure! Funny that my response to TLW has not been commented on!
That was your argument?:smt043
I commented way back at 11:55 this morning... If the best justification you have for Israel's actions is that some other people somewhere also do nasty things then that's pretty pathetic to be honest. Quite why you think I should, would or could justify every mistake the country I happened to be born in has made over the course of history is a bit mystifying, but it does make for a rudimentary distraction when you know you haven't got any legitimate justification at all:thumleft:
Israel has the same right to defend themselves in the same way here we have the right to flatten Iraq or cosovo or afganistan. The fact you don't like their methods is of little matter really. If the uk govt don't approve of what is happening there then maybe they should take the suicide bombers from Hamas or the lovely Palestinians that blow up clubs full of 18 year olds or the ones that build weapon warehouses underneath schools.
Again you are all good with words and assume people only believe the stories and propaganda from Israel but why don't you try carrying a gun, as a soldier trying to protect your country. I stand by my comment you are a keyboard warrior even though I know nothing about your past.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 04:35 PM
Israel has the same right to defend themselves in the same way here we have the right to flatten Iraq or cosovo or afganistan.
So no right at all then by your own argument :roll:
Tell me a couple of things:
Why do "we" have the right to flatten Iraq?
Why do "we" have the right to flatten Afghanistan?
Whats cosovo got to do with the current "wars"?
Indeed you have no right and cosovo was another collaborative action from the UN and the uk sent troops there to assist.
We here should stop criticising what is happening in every single place around the world when
1) we created the mess
2) we do nothing to sort it out. And I mean practically nothing. Sending letters is good for when they run out of toilet paper in London.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 04:44 PM
can you not answer my 3 simple questions above?
Thought I did:) you have no right is the answer to the firt 2 and think I've already answered the 3rd
Spiderman
06-01-10, 04:57 PM
Ok you've properly baffled me now with your use of "we" and "you".
Are you saying that israel is not right in what its doing or not?
the_lone_wolf
06-01-10, 04:57 PM
Israel has the same right to defend themselves...
What they're doing and have done in Gaza is not defensive in the slightest. In 22 days Israel killed roughly the same number of Gazan civilians as there have been Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorism since 2000, despite their "best efforts" to minimise civilian casualties by using illegal or indiscriminate weapons like white phosphor and cluster bombs, and by targeting schools and UN buildings where people were instructed to shelter...
Ok you've properly baffled me now with your use of "we" and "you".
Are you saying that israel is not right in what its doing or not?
I think this is where you missed my point initially:) I never chose sides. I have been saying that Israel is doing the same thing the uk is doing elsewhere. If you or I don't like it then don't send letters and criticise the civiliants of each country. Do something about it!
What they're doing and have done in Gaza is not defensive in the slightest. In 22 days Israel killed roughly the same number of Gazan civilians as there have been Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorism since 2000, despite their "best efforts" to minimise civilian casualties by using illegal or indiscriminate weapons like white phosphor and cluster bombs, and by targeting schools and UN buildings where people were instructed to shelter...
There were no WMD in Iraq either and neither were in cossovo. Didn't see anyone from the uk doing anything about it. Mr Blair is out at large enjoying his fat big paycheck while he destroyed a country:)
Spiderman
06-01-10, 05:07 PM
Right but you are confusing 2 issues here as TLW pointed out to you. Yes ok both are illegal.
As for letter writing, its an open letter to the Prime Minister of this country signed by many influential people and PMs alike, so its not just "letter writing".
As or do something about it, well others are. Like the Viva Palestina group who have been taking aid themselves to Gaza to help where govts wont. And how do they get treated?
Dozens Wounded as Egypt Blocks Gaza Aid Convoy
In Egypt, around fifty-five people were reportedly wounded Tuesday when Egyptian forces clashed with members of an international delegation trying to bring humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip. Several protesters were hospitalized with injuries from rocks and tear gas. The Viva Palestina convoy of nearly 200 trucks departed Britain last month. Convoy leader and British lawmaker George Galloway said the group protested after Egypt tried to force dozens of trucks to pass through Israel.
George Galloway: “Together with myself and other leaders of the convoy, we were involved in negotiations with the Egyptian authorities about their determination to remove more than fifty-five of our vehicles and send them to the Israeli checkpoint. We refused this because it’s a breach of the agreement that we reached in Aqaba between the government of Egypt and the Turkish side, and it is completely unconscionable that 25 percent of our convoy should go to Israel and never arrive in Gaza, because nothing that goes to Israel ever arrives in Gaza.”
The Egyptian government has blocked hundreds of Palestinian solidarity activists from entering Gaza around the one-year anniversary of the US-backed Israeli assault that killed over 1,300 Palestinians.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 05:10 PM
I think this is where you missed my point initially:) I never chose sides. I have been saying that Israel is doing the same thing the uk is doing elsewhere. If you or I don't like it then don't send letters and criticise the civiliants of each country. Do something about it!
Yes and its sickening to me an many, many other people. He should be indicted for war crimes especially since his recent admission that WMD was a good reason for going to war but f that reason hadn't wont cabinet approval he would have found something lese since "saddam had to go". So he has by his own admission taken part in a clearly defined crime against humanity. No one is allowed to use military might to remove a head of state, this is a war crime.
It'll be interesting to see what he says when he's called forward to the whitewash that is the Iraq War Enquiry tho.
the_lone_wolf
06-01-10, 05:19 PM
I have been saying that Israel is doing the same thing the uk is doing elsewhere.And that analogy was already shown to be false way back this morning, just because you repeat it doesn't make it valid...
There were no WMD in Iraq either and neither were in cossovo. Didn't see anyone from the uk doing anything about it. Mr Blair is out at large enjoying his fat big paycheck while he destroyed a country:)
Completely irrelevant, why would the actions of one country absolve another of it's war crimes?
yorkie_chris
06-01-10, 05:29 PM
Drivel? Sure! Funny that my response to TLW has not been commented on! I guess you are only good for supporting the arguments for what you see as unjust but you fail miserably to acknowledge that it was the uk that created this and still it's the uk that support this.
Why are the actions of 'our' government our problem? I did not vote for this shower.
Anyway, was the original splitting of Israel/Palestine not a UN decision in 1946? Which seemed to put all the fertile and profitable land in Jewish hands. Obviously that was going to start a war.
Israel has the same right to defend themselves in the same way
Defending your borders against insurgence is one thing, pushing an entire population into ghettos is quite another.
Indeed you have no right and cosovo was another collaborative action from the UN and the uk sent troops there to assist.
We here should stop criticising what is happening in every single place around the world when
1) we created the mess
2) we do nothing to sort it out. And I mean practically nothing. Sending letters is good for when they run out of toilet paper in London.
1) who is "we"
2) what do you want me to do? Go there and fend of mervaka MBT's with my shotgun and a pick handle?
I think this is where you missed my point initially:) I never chose sides. I have been saying that Israel is doing the same thing the uk is doing elsewhere. If you or I don't like it then don't send letters and criticise the civiliants of each country. Do something about it!
You seem to have been pretty fervent in defending the IDF attacks on civilians.
maviczap
06-01-10, 05:50 PM
One has to protect themselves and as we do with Iraq & Afganistan similarly other countries do with what they consider a risk.
If you'd seen the Ross Kemp program on Gazza, then you would have seen what the Isrerali's have done to Gazza.
The UN envoy to Gazza was highly crtical of their tatics in the last assault, where they took out the infrastructure of Gazza, schools, hospitals, civic offices etc.
They will claim that Hamas were using these as terrorist bases, but they also took out factories and the blockade has caused at least 100,000 to become unemployed, directly or indirectly. How are you meant to survive if you have no job. Who are you going to take your anger out on?
Its a very complex situation and even the some of the Palestinian's interviewed were very critical of Hamas and they'd rather be at peace with the Isreali's. There are agendas on both sides, that can't be comprehended.
But what nearly bought me to tears was the children interviewed at a psychiatric clinic who described their mothers, fathers sisters, grandmothers being shot by the Isreali's :(
Defend yes, but this?
I'll watch the 2nd part on Sunday, to get the Isreali side of the story, but like I said it opened my eyes.:(
slark01
06-01-10, 06:12 PM
The United Kingdom should just keep out of other countries business. If countries want to attack each other for whatever reason then let them.
If they attack us then wipe them off the face of the earth.
Radical...yes.
Do I care...no
Why....because they do not care about us.
Ste.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 06:17 PM
What most people are sadly unaware of is that Hamas offered israel a 10yr ceasefire and withdrew it call to destroy israel a few years ago now. They said they have to deal with the reality that is israel and try to do whats est for their people.
Israel on the other hand have time and time again done everything they can to antagonise the situation, by building walls onto land that is not theirs, by kidnapping civilians, including children, in the night at gunpoint and locking them away in secret prisons without trial and all manner of other ways to get hamas to retaliate the only way it can, with its puny unguided rockets so they can say "look they are firing rockets at us again" :roll:
Forget Ross Kemp btw, its sensationalist TV (he says not having seen it, lol) but if you want some real truths from the ground watch this. http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2009/12/24/noam_chomsky_gaza_one_year_later
Its a bit long winded but if you want to hear about the reality of what israel are doing to destroy and chance of peace its well worth watching.
why should we bother what happens over i the middle east.?
pull all the troops out and let them get on with it i say. if we never intervened then some of it would be settled out by now. they have been at it for thousands of years, who are we to try and stop it. instead we incite it.
maviczap
06-01-10, 06:20 PM
Forget Ross Kemp btw, its sensationalist TV (he says not having seen it, lol) but if you want some real truths from the ground watch this. http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2009/12/24/noam_chomsky_gaza_one_year_later
Its a bit long winded but if you want to hear about the reality of what israel are doing to destroy and chance of peace its well worth watching.
H'mm thats the one thing I could happily say about that prog, it certainly wasn't sensationalist, at least not to my eyes.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 06:35 PM
why should we bother what happens over i the middle east.? for the natural gas and oil of course. Things the west dont have an abundance of.
if we never intervened then some of it would be settled out by now. they have been at it for thousands of years, who are we to try and stop it. instead we incite it.
Imagine how thw world would be if saddam had been left in place. Quite peaceful really. He was in no way a threat (not militarily anyway) to the west or any of his neighbours. The 2 previous iraq was had seen to that. yes he was a dictator but one who kept some semblance of stability in the region. Sadly, cos he wouldnt play ball with the uk and us they decided he had to go and be replaced with a puppet they could control better.
lets not forget this
http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/saddam-rumsfeld.jpg
At one time he was on good terms with the people who later had him hung by the neck for daring to go against them.
H'mm thats the one I could happily say about that prog, it certainly wasn't sensationalist, at least not to my eyes.
Well perhaps i can find it online and give it a go then.
for the natural gas and oil of course. Things the west dont have an abundance of.
teeehhheeeeeee, thats funny.
do you honestly think the government/s give a rats arz about the oil and gas, after all who is it that really needs it? yup you guessed us public.
war games, thats what its all about, the money to be made selling the latest and greatest 'arms' is way more profitable then oil or gas will ever be.
not to mention all the public money the government/s can waste as aposed to spend it where it matters. ever noticed how the government has no money or very little for 'natural disasters', education and health in this country but can find billions when it comes to 'keeping peace'.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 07:03 PM
Ah yes of course, war is the biggest income generator for sure. But why did they not have wars in africa or other places? If you're gonna have a war why not do it somewhere where you can then control the oil as well. Wahoo, even more money and power at your fingertips.
Yeh it makes me sick that the NHS is closing hospitals all over the place, gives you worse diseases than you went in with cos the conditions in some ways are worse than 3rd world countries yet the govt always say they cant afford to do anything about it.
oh but there is a chance of a war somewhere? Hell we got billions aside to play that game with.
aaaarrrrrgggg you brought up the Africa word.
if all this 'war on dictatorship atrocity and terrorism' was truly what they say it is, then we should have been at war with Zimbabwe years ago. so why aren't we. coz there are to many 'british/european subjects' there, its also mainly a christian society so who would be the 'terrorists'.
Spiderman
06-01-10, 07:20 PM
again all good points. But the west has raped pretty much all the wealth out of africa now so all it can do is have its puppets in place to ... yeh you guessed it... by more arms for their regimes from them.
slark01
06-01-10, 07:30 PM
teeehhheeeeeee, thats funny.
do you honestly think the government/s give a rats arz about the oil and gas, after all who is it that really needs it? yup you guessed us public.
war games, thats what its all about, the money to be made selling the latest and greatest 'arms' is way more profitable then oil or gas will ever be.
not to mention all the public money the government/s can waste as aposed to spend it where it matters. ever noticed how the government has no money or very little for 'natural disasters', education and health in this country but can find billions when it comes to 'keeping peace'.
Without gas and oil how is someone supposed to make weapons?
Unless of course you are talking about spears, bows/arrows etc.
Ste.
the_lone_wolf
06-01-10, 07:32 PM
OI!!
Bono and Geldof
I think you're moving off topic here...
;)
Spiderman
06-01-10, 07:56 PM
Yeh fair point TLW, its that 600 stopped posting so we kinda moved on.
But back on topic. Anyone remember this attack on a UN base in a school
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeVtXALZS_o
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Uub-HxUPc&feature=related
and how they tried to justify it with this video they released.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiDfF9X41KY&feature=related
Only thing they forgot to mention about that video was that it was from 2007 and a different school :roll:
every time a tread of this type comes up i cant help but think of this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMDV645t3LI
Spiderman
06-01-10, 08:48 PM
not heard that one before. Quite good.
the world is wrong full of corruption and greed egged on by religion and yet more greed nothing surprises me anymore the lot of em can go **** themselves.
BanannaMan
07-01-10, 03:59 AM
How about an open letter to Obama?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zydAs5bRW1U
(a lengthy but worthy perfomance)
Words so true it's almost scary!
I suppose as long as there are politicians...
Edit: sorry... off topic
Spiderman
13-01-10, 11:33 PM
H'mm thats the one thing I could happily say about that prog, it certainly wasn't sensationalist, at least not to my eyes.
well i gotta agree with you here. I caught part one last week and now watching part 2. Its not been sensationalist at all. A bit one sided maybe but not too bad overall.
Also to those of you who missed this thread...can i urge you to read the 1st post and sign the petition if thats the sort of thing you do.
Thanks.
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