View Full Version : Clear pavement snow - yay or nay?
MiniMatt
10-01-10, 11:46 AM
I know there's always stories every year about how you can get sued if you clear snow but is this just a legal technical possibility stoked up by the Daily Mail or does it actually happen?
Sure, if definitely is technically possible to be sued but can anyone point me to any case of a private individual actually being succesfully sued for this? I get the impression it's the same as it being technically possible to be arrested for carrying a screwdriver (offensive weapon, equipped to steal cars etc) but it's all down to intent - if you intend to make the path more dangerous then you're being naughty.
What's the opinion of posties? They must do more walking in this environment than anyone else - do you prefer to see a cleared garden path (leaving alone pavement for now) or you prefer compacted snow (quite aware that fresh snow is relatively safe)? Do most people make a cack-handed job of it and leave a skating rink or do you find in most instances it's nicer to have a clear path?
metalangel
10-01-10, 04:51 PM
From what I've read, you can clear your path (put some sand or something down afterwards) but leave the pavement alone. Because this country has its priorities mixed up.
Me and my dad clear the bit outside my house and the shop.
Cleared the snow, and put a mixture of salt and sand down.
Took us 20 mins, and its clear of snow and ice now!
Kilted Ginger
10-01-10, 05:12 PM
Always cleared my path / drive and in previus years pretty much the street as well. Before we moved we had 6 eldery neighours and I cleared their paths as well.
this suing someone for their path being icy is an urban legend as far as i'm concerned.
BanditPat
10-01-10, 05:16 PM
If you decided not to do your path and some one slipped example the postie because he/she is a regular visitor you have a duty of care and could be sued for negligence if it was to hurt its self. Pavement? I would leave alone if you didn't clear it properly and some one slipped on a patch that wasn't cleared properly again you could potentially be sued for negligence
Milky Bar Kid
10-01-10, 05:18 PM
If you decided not to do your path and some one slipped example the postie because he/she is a regular visitor you have a duty of care and could be sued for negligence if it was to hurt its self. Pavement? I would leave alone if you didn't clear it properly and some one slipped on a patch that wasn't cleared properly again you could potentially be sued for negligence
That is twaddle! If they chose to come into your garden they cannot sue you for having an icy path and slipping and hurting themselves.
BanditPat
10-01-10, 05:22 PM
That is twaddle! If they chose to come into your garden they cannot sue you for having an icy path and slipping and hurting themselves.
People have been sued by burglers for injuring them selves while being out on the rob though havent they.
Kilted Ginger
10-01-10, 05:40 PM
People have been sued by burglers for injuring them selves while being out on the rob though havent they.
Another urban legend.
You cannot be held responsible for someone ie postie slipping on your drive.
If you employ someone to work on your propery ie cleaner gardner painter the technically you cluod be sued if the hurt themself however this is not the case either as they must have public liability insurance in case they hurt someone on your property.
Do not confuse urban myths and the blame / sue culture of america and what is reality here.
There is a huge difference between clearing a path and it reicing and someone slipping on it and eg, badly building a bridge on your property and it collapsing, that would be negligence.
BanditPat
10-01-10, 05:43 PM
Okay you go ahead and clear what you want and beleive what you want. I'll believe what I want and I'll clear the snow that I want hopefully some one like you will come and break a hip on the pavement for me to laugh at.
Kilted Ginger
10-01-10, 05:53 PM
why would you wish for someone to slip and break a hip because they have a different point of view to you, not very nice.
thinone
10-01-10, 06:42 PM
I know there's always stories every year about how you can get sued if you clear snow but is this just a legal technical possibility stoked up by the Daily Mail or does it actually happen?
Sure, if definitely is technically possible to be sued but can anyone point me to any case of a private individual actually being succesfully sued for this? I get the impression it's the same as it being technically possible to be arrested for carrying a screwdriver (offensive weapon, equipped to steal cars etc) but it's all down to intent - if you intend to make the path more dangerous then you're being naughty.
What's the opinion of posties? They must do more walking in this environment than anyone else - do you prefer to see a cleared garden path (leaving alone pavement for now) or you prefer compacted snow (quite aware that fresh snow is relatively safe)? Do most people make a cack-handed job of it and leave a skating rink or do you find in most instances it's nicer to have a clear path?
notice - most of the responders were NORTHERN...
urbane1
10-01-10, 07:35 PM
Here you are required to clear the sidewalk adjoing your property within 24 hours of a snowfall, or you can be fined by the City. But they won't clear the roads (except major streets and highways) and you would be fined if you do it yourself (they cite liability issues!)
Nicky S
10-01-10, 07:40 PM
i heard them saying it on radio 1 last weekend but who knows do we not have any legal people on the org that can give us an answer??
The Guru
10-01-10, 07:51 PM
That is twaddle! If they chose to come into your garden they cannot sue you for having an icy path and slipping and hurting themselves.
What if a burglar jumps your fence and enters your enclosed garden where your dog is freely roaming and is then bitten by said dog.. Has any crime or offence taken place?
I would think that any person entering onto your property may be able to claim from you if they are injured. I do think that this would not go very far in court but the theory is there.
punyXpress
10-01-10, 08:19 PM
notice - most of the responders were NORTHERN...
And Scottish law is VERY different to Sassenach law.
Milky Bar Kid
10-01-10, 09:18 PM
What if a burglar jumps your fence and enters your enclosed garden where your dog is freely roaming and is then bitten by said dog.. Has any crime or offence taken place?
I would think that any person entering onto your property may be able to claim from you if they are injured. I do think that this would not go very far in court but the theory is there.
No, if it can be argued that the dog was provoked then no. I would say that it would probably be fair to say that someone jumping the fence into the garden is fair provokation for being bitten. A dog needs to be "DANGEROUSLY OUT OF CONTROL" in a private garden before it is an offence.
Anyway, we are not talking about crimes here.
And yes, you could claim it in court but you would be unsucessful. Any person can make a claim against anyone for pretty much anything in the civil courts.
The Guru
10-01-10, 09:53 PM
No, if it can be argued that the dog was provoked then no. I would say that it would probably be fair to say that someone jumping the fence into the garden is fair provokation for being bitten. A dog needs to be "DANGEROUSLY OUT OF CONTROL" in a private garden before it is an offence.
Anyway, we are not talking about crimes here.
I would disagree. The dog would need to be on a fixed lead or in a fully enclosed (as in dog run/kennel) enclosure to be provoked and then no offence would have been committed.
Think of it another way.. a small kid kicks their football into a garden, jumps the fence and is bitten by a 'free roaming' dog..
And yes, you could claim it in court but you would be unsucessful. Any person can make a claim against anyone for pretty much anything in the civil courts.
Very true. All kinds or outrageous claims can be made... and won.
fastdruid
10-01-10, 11:43 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242059/You-sued-clear-ice-paths-outside-home-health-safety-chiefs-warn.html
Discuss. ;)
Druid
carternd
10-01-10, 11:54 PM
When I was a kid and lost my ball I always had to ask for it back! Don't worry about some story in the papers - if you think clearing the pavement is the right thing to do then do it!
timwilky
11-01-10, 09:52 AM
This are you liable etc. reminds me of when I was a kid.
My younger brother had had his shed broken into a couple of times, so he put grills on the windows. Grills got ripped off. So next he hooked 240v to the grill.
Who complained. The local copper. When he got all abusive and threatening about getting an electric shock he was asked why he was trying to break into private property 300 yards from the highway.
Dad agreed to get Paul to disconnect it and the copper would say no more. After that his shed was coated in barb wire.
Myself and a neighbour did ours, figuring, that there would be no proof for who carried out what actions on which part or the road or pavement.
You can get sued.
If you intend to interfere, you must put the pavement or road, back to the condition it was before it snowed. This is to prevent people from making a half-assed attempt at clearing snow. If you put grit down to melt snow and snow re-freezes as solid ice, you are making the conditions worse.
Do it properly, and it would be difficult to prove that your involvement would have made the situation worse.
The decision would be down to the court to find you liable anyway, and I feel an argument of common sense on the accuser's behalf would have to be taken in to account.
If I slipped on a path where it appeared to be grit by an individual, I would let it go, but if I had an accident on a road or pavement that had been poorly tended to by the local authority, I would likely pursue it.
There is no positive duty to clear snow from the public highway, so why do it?
There is no positive duty to clear snow from the public highway, so why do it?
Quite. Doesn't make much difference to me. I've been as productive, if not more, over the last week, by working at home and have produced zero emissions getting to work ;).
For getting supplies, I have legs, and can easily walk the 6 mile round trip to the nearest supermarket, should the need arise.
My wife says that a woman on a forum she uses, had an accident taking her kids to school this morning. If her local authority had made no attempt to intervene with the weather conditions, it's unlikely she and many other fools in similar boats, would attempt to make the journey.
I'm fortunate enough to not have a tv, so I don't see any news, I don't read or watch it online either. So, I'd have to say I'm pretty out of touch with what's going on in the world, but we have heard from others, about how many people have been killing themselves on the icy, snowy and slushy roads.
So, is it worth the risk? Who's fault is it, if you permanently damage your children, trying to make a journey that is not necessary? I can only think there would be one person to blame.
blue curvy jester
11-01-10, 03:51 PM
you can't get sued in the UK unless you've done something stupid like putting water down to clear it ( malfeseness adn antifesense)
if all you've done is sweep/shovel the snow away and made best efforts you would be fine ( this is a legal opinion from a lawyer specialising in ambulance chasing )
Milky Bar Kid
11-01-10, 06:28 PM
I would disagree. The dog would need to be on a fixed lead or in a fully enclosed (as in dog run/kennel) enclosure to be provoked and then no offence would have been committed.
Think of it another way.. a small kid kicks their football into a garden, jumps the fence and is bitten by a 'free roaming' dog...
From the Scottish govt website, and also my knowledge of both the Dogs Act 1871 and the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991(same in England and Scotland) no, no offence is commited. This is qouted from this site
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/bills/membersbills/pdfs/DangerousDogsConsultation.pdf
Dangerous Dogs Act - Section 3
Section 3 made it an offence to be responsible for any dog – not just those banned under Section 1 – that was dangerously out of control in a public place, or a private place in which it was not permitted to be. This section is too limited in its scope, for two reasons:
• It fails to offer the same level of protection in private places in which the dog is permitted to be. If the attack occurs in the dog’s own home – as is very often the case - the owner cannot be prosecuted. For example, in 2005, a two-year-old girl required hours of surgery after being attacked by her neighbour’s Japanese Akita in Carmarthenshire, West Wales. As this happened in the neighbour’s home where the dog lived, there was no scope for prosecution under the DDA, and the dog still lives next door to the girl.
northwind
12-01-10, 10:21 PM
I know there's always stories every year about how you can get sued if you clear snow but is this just a legal technical possibility stoked up by the Daily Mail or does it actually happen?
What's the opinion of posties? They must do more walking in this environment than anyone else - do you prefer to see a cleared garden path (leaving alone pavement for now) or you prefer compacted snow (quite aware that fresh snow is relatively safe)? Do most people make a cack-handed job of it and leave a skating rink or do you find in most instances it's nicer to have a clear path?
I can give you a crippo's opinion, I spent a winter on crutches and I much prefer snow. It's hard to walk on but unless it's half-melted, it's consistent and usually gives a safe amount of grip. Cleared paths can be anything from racetrack perfect, to icerinks, and if you're dependant on a stick even a tiny bit of ice (which most cleared pavements will have) is deadly. Till today, it's been the uncleared pavements around here people have been using, and the cleared ones which are iffy. But now that the thaw's on, the wet snow is extremely iffy but the cleared paths are great.
For people in wheelchairs etc, or for people with pushchairs, cleared pavements are better but for most people I reckon snow is better, til it thaws.
As far as liability, there's one case where people have been found liable for accidents, and that's when they've cleared snow onto a path or road. Idiot down the road was doing that today, literally throwing snow from his driveway into the road. I gave him some, ahem, advice and he told me "It's the council's job to keep the road clear, and my job to keep my path clear." Tool. I'm almost tempted to go and crash on his snow :D
carternd
12-01-10, 11:18 PM
"It's the council's job to keep the road clear, and my job to keep my path clear." Tool. I'm almost tempted to go and crash on his snow :D
What a A**e**le. Makes me wish I had more asterisk keys. If we had any snow worth having in Dorset I'd shovel it into the garden for my nipper to make snowmen out of.
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