View Full Version : Leaving a house empty - cold protection advice
Gazza77
13-01-10, 02:20 PM
I have a property I rent out which will be vacant at the end of the week when the current tenant moves out. What is the best bet to prevent any cold damage, such as burst pipes. Drain the water system? Leave the heating on (if so, for how much of the time?) I don't really want to have to spend a fortune on heating an empty house, but on the other hand, don't really want to have lots of repairs either...
Mr Speirs
13-01-10, 02:21 PM
Put the heating on for a hour or so at around midnight was advice I just got.
davepreston
13-01-10, 02:23 PM
heating on for an hour twice a day should do it say 1pm 1am on timer
+ 1
Heating on low .....
... and get it let ASAP :-)
timwilky
13-01-10, 02:26 PM
one of my neighbours family turned off dead mothers heating as the house was vacant and up for sale. and they were too tight to heat an empty house
Cold water pipe in attic froze/burst and dump contents though the ceiling for 4 days when they were next able to visit and find the disaster. They had had it decorated through and new carpets fitted. There is now debate as to the insurance cover as the house had technically been unoccupied for some months
Gazza77
13-01-10, 02:28 PM
... and get it let ASAP :-)
No **** Sherlock. :p;)
Well .... come on ..... you started the silly comments !! :-)
Draining down I ask you ??!! :-)
speedplay
13-01-10, 02:32 PM
+1
When I moved to Northampton years ago I rented for 6 months to start with.
In the tennancy agreement it stated that upon leaving the building at the end of tennancy I was required to make sure that heating and hot water were left on for a minimum of 1 hour in the morning and again in the evening to prevent frost damage.
Gazza77
13-01-10, 02:32 PM
Well .... come on ..... you started the silly comments !! :-)
Draining down I ask you ??!! :-)
That is a piece of advice I've been given by quite a few people, and have seen numerous times online when searching for opinions...
That is a piece of advice I've been given by quite a few people, and have seen numerous times online when searching for opinions...
Just kidding fella !! :-)
It is the thing to do ..... IF the property is going to be empty for a long time ..... hence, heating on - let is soon ;)
I've got a couple of flats I rent out .... void periods (when you don't have a tenant) need to be avoided at all costs .... expensive :-(
Gazza77
13-01-10, 02:40 PM
Just kidding fella !! :-)
It is the thing to do ..... IF the property is going to be empty for a long time ..... hence, heating on - let is soon ;)
I've got a couple of flats I rent out .... void periods (when you don't have a tenant) need to be avoided at all costs .... expensive :-(
Tell me about it. This tenant has only been in 6 months; thought they would be in for long haul, then the council came good with the house they had been after for 3 years out of the blue. :(
I have to say I've been very lucky the past 18 months .... although not with my fixed mortgages :-( ....... just gone on to the (cheap) variable rates, and now the GF thinks we should sell them, and buy a better house ..... I was thinking of a new bike :-)
Good luck finding a new tenant .... :-)
metalangel
13-01-10, 02:48 PM
Our heating will come on even if it's 'off' if the house hits 5C. I'd leave it to run for an hour or two twice a day at a reasonable temperature, just to stop stuff freezing or bursting.
skidmarx
13-01-10, 05:28 PM
Leave your loft hatch open may help
Bluefish
13-01-10, 06:13 PM
personally, i would drain it down, and turn the mains water off if it's going to empty for a while, as said water pouring out for days befor it gets discoverd not good, but even if you leave the heating on one hour is not enough, leave on constant at a low temp, but turn off the mains water, i've been to a few bursts this week.
speedplay
13-01-10, 06:30 PM
Leave your loft hatch open may help
How will this help?
Ceilings are insulated to help keep the building warm.
Roof spaces are vented to help keep timber (trusses, rafters, joists etc) dry.
All that leaving the loft hatch would do is reduce the temperature of the building quicker (as well as damp).
Dont leave the loft hatch open, this is a stupid idea.
Gazza77
13-01-10, 07:11 PM
How will this help?
Ceilings are insulated to help keep the building warm.
Roof spaces are vented to help keep timber (trusses, rafters, joists etc) dry.
All that leaving the loft hatch would do is reduce the temperature of the building quicker (as well as damp).
Dont leave the loft hatch open, this is a stupid idea.
Leaving the loft hatch open is seemingly often recommended to prevent pipework in the loft freezing.
Gazza77
13-01-10, 07:12 PM
personally, i would drain it down, and turn the mains water off if it's going to empty for a while, as said water pouring out for days befor it gets discoverd not good, but even if you leave the heating on one hour is not enough, leave on constant at a low temp, but turn off the mains water, i've been to a few bursts this week.
How low would you say is low enough to prevent freezing, temp wise?
speedplay
13-01-10, 07:17 PM
Leaving the loft hatch open is seemingly often recommended to prevent pipework in the loft freezing.
Really?!
Is that in an unheated house or a heated one that your letting all the heat escape through the open hatch?
You may as well leave the window open for the good it will do.
Most pipes (if not all) in the loft will be insulated so what will the open loft hatch do really when you think about it?!
lol
Gazza77
13-01-10, 07:21 PM
If you are only going to be away from the house for a couple of days, you can either leave the heating on its normal settings and be prepared to pay the fuel bills or, if you want to save money, do the following:
set the heating programmer to 24-hour ('continuous') operation
set the room thermostat to a low setting - say 5°C/41°F
remove or prop loft hatch fully open.
This will allow the boiler to fire to keep the house (and the loft space) above freezing point.
For this reason.
speedplay
13-01-10, 07:32 PM
For this reason.
Ok, think about it logically.
If you leave a window open and leave the heating on, what happens?
The thermostat will never reach temperature and the heating will be on constant, trying to heat that room.
Or if you have a central thermostat somewhere like on the wall of the hallway, the room wont show as being at temperature and will stay cold.
Most roofs (not all but most) are vented at the soffett and some are also vented at the ridge.
This is to allow air to circulate through the roofspace.
You will never be able to heat the roofspace via the attic hatch as the heat will get drawn straight out of the roof space.
If the thermostat picks up the draught then the boiler will be wizzing its tits off to try and keep the house warm, (you will heat the atmosphere and we will continue to have crap winters due to global warming...)
The last bit take as you like ;)
Even loft hatches being fitted in new build houses are insulated now to stop the heat from being sucked right out through and into the atmosphere.
If your really that worried about the house, go into the loft and check how much insulation is up there.
Check if the pipes are lagged.
If you run the boiler for a couple of hours a day then the heat will be stored in the house (even better if you draw the curtains and shut all dors etc).
Gazza77
13-01-10, 07:38 PM
Ok, think about it logically.
If you leave a window open and leave the heating on, what happens?
The thermostat will never reach temperature and the heating will be on constant, trying to heat that room.
Or if you have a central thermostat somewhere like on the wall of the hallway, the room wont show as being at temperature and will stay cold.
Most roofs (not all but most) are vented at the soffett and some are also vented at the ridge.
This is to allow air to circulate through the roofspace.
You will never be able to heat the roofspace via the attic hatch as the heat will get drawn straight out of the roof space.
If the thermostat picks up the draught then the boiler will be wizzing its tits off to try and keep the house warm, (you will heat the atmosphere and we will continue to have crap winters due to global warming...)
The last bit take as you like ;)
Even loft hatches being fitted in new build houses are insulated now to stop the heat from being sucked right out through and into the atmosphere.
If your really that worried about the house, go into the loft and check how much insulation is up there.
Check if the pipes are lagged.
If you run the boiler for a couple of hours a day then the heat will be stored in the house (even better if you draw the curtains and shut all dors etc).
It depends where the pipes are in the loft I guess, I will check that when I go over to collect the keys at the weekend. It is an old boiler though, with a hot water tank in the loft, so there is a lot of water up there to freeze.
I see your point, but leaving the hatch open is the generally accepted advice if you look around on the net, including from insurers, plumbers and utility companies, unless I drain the pipes and the whole heating system instead. Whether I follow it or not is up to me I guess.
Specialone
13-01-10, 08:24 PM
personally, i would drain it down, and turn the mains water off if it's going to empty for a while, as said water pouring out for days befor it gets discoverd not good, but even if you leave the heating on one hour is not enough, leave on constant at a low temp, but turn off the mains water, i've been to a few bursts this week.
+1, your pipes cant freeze if there aint nothing in them, i have done this before for letting agents and estate agents who know the houses will be empty for a while.
Drain all the central heating, turn mains off, drain all the water pipes, leave taps open if you can with notice on stop tap warning they are open;).
I had a customer who had a big house in edgbaston who went to india over xmas for 3 weeks and they had a water feed to the header tank stay open and the overflow had a joint that wasnt glued so come apart.
The whole house had to be gutted, they said they had a foot of water in the whole of the downstairs.
Gazza77
13-01-10, 08:39 PM
+1, your pipes cant freeze if there aint nothing in them, i have done this before for letting agents and estate agents who know the houses will be empty for a while.
Drain all the central heating, turn mains off, drain all the water pipes, leave taps open if you can with notice on stop tap warning they are open;).
I had a customer who had a big house in edgbaston who went to india over xmas for 3 weeks and they had a water feed to the header tank stay open and the overflow had a joint that wasnt glued so come apart.
The whole house had to be gutted, they said they had a foot of water in the whole of the downstairs.
Having never done this before, is this something that should be easily done (plus refilling it obviously!) or would you recommend getting a professional to do it? If so, what sort of cost am I looking at?
Specialone
13-01-10, 10:46 PM
Having never done this before, is this something that should be easily done (plus refilling it obviously!) or would you recommend getting a professional to do it? If so, what sort of cost am I looking at?
Its not hard but i dont know your level of knowledge.
First thing to do, turn water off.
Any tanks in loft, depending on central heating you have you may have a header tank for topping up your system, look for a drain **** on the lower part of your central heating system and attach a hose to outside and drain it, letting this run should also empty header tank,
open all the valves to all radiators fully and bleed valves at the top of the rads, if you dont have a drain **** you will have to pull a valve off a rad and do it that way,.
If you have a gravity fed shower then this will be fed from a tank also, either in loft or airing cupboard and can be drained when you empty your taps.
Open all taps downstairs inc any outside taps, flush any downstairs toilets, basically anything with a water supply (even a american type fridge) leave them open and go upstairs and open all the taps upstairs, this should remove most of the water in your pipes barring any dips in the pipework which you cant get without forcing air down the pipes to blow it out.
Phil
Gazza77
14-01-10, 08:21 AM
Its not hard but i dont know your level of knowledge.
First thing to do, turn water off.
Any tanks in loft, depending on central heating you have you may have a header tank for topping up your system, look for a drain **** on the lower part of your central heating system and attach a hose to outside and drain it, letting this run should also empty header tank,
open all the valves to all radiators fully and bleed valves at the top of the rads, if you dont have a drain **** you will have to pull a valve off a rad and do it that way,.
If you have a gravity fed shower then this will be fed from a tank also, either in loft or airing cupboard and can be drained when you empty your taps.
Open all taps downstairs inc any outside taps, flush any downstairs toilets, basically anything with a water supply (even a american type fridge) leave them open and go upstairs and open all the taps upstairs, this should remove most of the water in your pipes barring any dips in the pipework which you cant get without forcing air down the pipes to blow it out.
Phil
Cheers, doesn't sound too bad a job provided that non of the rad valves are seized.
FWIW, drining down isn't a 100% guarantee.
When I bought my house (Feb 1985) it was empty and had been "drained down", but because of the way the pipe runs were detailed under upstairs floors, not all the pipes actually empty out. A couple of these had frozen and caused splits in the copper pipe, if they freeze from the ends of the water, which is what usually happens, the last bit to freeze in the middle has nowhere to expand into so splits the pipe. You only find out when it thaws or you try to refill the system.
In a similar vein, the hot water cylinder was drained but of course a couple of inches remain in the bottom. This had frozen as a disc, and the expansion caused a split in the side of the cylinder. I soldered a copper patch on the cylinder, and it's still there 25yrs later!
I'd always recommend leaving heating on low, it's even worth investing in frost protection 'stats if appropriate. It'll be cheaper than trying to drain down and be sure it's completely empty, remember a small amount of water will freeze much more readily than a full system. Make sure pipes in loft spaces are very well insulated, and there is no insulation under water tanks (so heat can come through the ceiling) but they are well insulated over the top.
I'd always turn mains water off to limit potential water damage, though some warn about the top-up for heating stystems. I've never seen a header tank lose more than a few mm over many weeks unless there's a real leak.
Gazza77
14-01-10, 03:50 PM
FWIW, drining down isn't a 100% guarantee.
When I bought my house (Feb 1985) it was empty and had been "drained down", but because of the way the pipe runs were detailed under upstairs floors, not all the pipes actually empty out. A couple of these had frozen and caused splits in the copper pipe, if they freeze from the ends of the water, which is what usually happens, the last bit to freeze in the middle has nowhere to expand into so splits the pipe. You only find out when it thaws or you try to refill the system.
In a similar vein, the hot water cylinder was drained but of course a couple of inches remain in the bottom. This had frozen as a disc, and the expansion caused a split in the side of the cylinder. I soldered a copper patch on the cylinder, and it's still there 25yrs later!
I'd always recommend leaving heating on low, it's even worth investing in frost protection 'stats if appropriate. It'll be cheaper than trying to drain down and be sure it's completely empty, remember a small amount of water will freeze much more readily than a full system. Make sure pipes in loft spaces are very well insulated, and there is no insulation under water tanks (so heat can come through the ceiling) but they are well insulated over the top.
I'd always turn mains water off to limit potential water damage, though some warn about the top-up for heating stystems. I've never seen a header tank lose more than a few mm over many weeks unless there's a real leak.
Insulation will be checked over this weekend, but as a check of the paperwork last night confirmed that if the house is empty for more than 20 days, the insurers require all water systems to be drained, then I guess that is what will be happening...
Tell the insurer. Is probs some small print in the policy wording that you have to tell them.
Gazza77
14-01-10, 04:02 PM
Tell the insurer. Is probs some small print in the policy wording that you have to tell them.
It isn't Ed; the reason I got the policy out last night and spotted the bit about draining the system was to check on time limits for the property being empty. That's the difference between a business landlords policy and the usual 30 consecutive days bit in a domestic one. Cheers for the advice though.
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