Pointy swing arm side play.

[DavieSV]

I discovered play in the swing arm before christmas.

On the Abba stand there was definate play side ways on the rear wheel, but no play whilst holding the wheel on the top & the bottom and trying to twist it, so it had to be the swing arm and not the wheel bearings.

I've just found the time to strip it to investigate.

I stripped every thing down and cleaned the bearings.

There are lines inpressed in the bearing bushes, but not too much to worry about.

I measured the bushes and at most they are 5 microns under size.

There is play between the bushes and the bearings, especially on the chain side but not that much.

I have just reassembled the bearings, bushes and spindle into the swing arm on the bench and was quite suprised at what I found...

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8559/picture002tv.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/picture002tv.jpg/)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6450/slipsr.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/slipsr.jpg/)

The end float measures 1.08mm with the spindle torqued up.
All the contacting surfaces are clean.

As I can see, the end float is controled by the internal faces of the bearing bushes in contact with the ends of the bearing housing tube of the swing arm.

Am I correct?

The end float is conveniently just over 1mm?
Am I missing a thrust washer?
All I have is bush into bearing, spacer tube, bush into bearing, all clamped up by the spindle.

Has any one with a k5 checked there play?

[punyXpress]

Think there was someone ( from Scandinavia ? ) with the same problem a couple of months ago ?

[Bibio]

according to cupar mc. there should be play in the swingarm. i say bull. pack it with grease and torque it up.

[punyXpress]

'twas Mannerheim from Finland & his findings were virtually the same as yours. :confused:

[DavieSV]

Yes I remember the thread (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=140000)

I can sort this out in a couple of ways,

1, grind the inner face of the bush to reduce the tolerance.
2, turn a thrust washer up to take up the end float.

but that doesn't answer why it's there.

Is something missing? any one who has taken the swing arm off and reassembled it should be able to confirm this,

or is it wear? the bikes done 20,000 miles approx, and that's a lot of wear for that amount of miles.

or is it a manufacturing defect? there may be alot more out there with the same problem, without knowing it.

My bike may have been like it from new, I never checked, when I did the play was there.

Packing it with grease will make it greasy ;) it won't take up 1mm of play.

[Bibio]

from what i was told it is there to give a little 'flex' while cornering as without it the back end would skip out. i still think bull, but if you go and check mostly all the new suzuki's have it. i checked a few bikes straight out the crates.

[yorkie_chris]

Someones taking the p*ss if they think a broken swingarm improves handling.

[DavieSV]

NO, this is BAD,

From a manufacturing point of view, it's better to have some play than be tight. I would rather have a swing arm that flops abit than one that won't swing ;)

I've checked a GSXR, an R6, a FZ1, and a CBR6 all with no play at all.

So have all SV's got this play?

Check your's tomorrow everyone, and report back :salut:

[Bibio]

thats what i said... my exact words were pull the other one. till i felt several fresh bikes straight out the crates. these included bandit, sv. gsxf.

[DavieSV]

Suzuki quality?

[svdemon]

Mine was the same, I cranked it up (didn't use a torque wrench) until there was no play and the swingarm moved freely.

Transformed the feeling of the bike, got rid of the headshake and wobblyness mid corner!

[yorkie_chris]

but if you do that you stress frame. Better to take play out with shims.

NO, this is BAD,

From a manufacturing point of view, it's better to have some play than be tight. I would rather have a swing arm that flops abit than one that won't swing ;)

I've checked a GSXR, an R6, a FZ1, and a CBR6 all with no play at all.

So have all SV's got this play?

Check your's tomorrow everyone, and report back :salut:

Mine doesn't. And I've got the back end apart so I've checked thoroughly. Only play is in the shock bottom bearing which was knackered. but it is curvy.

When the finnish? guy posted his findins my thoughts were that he was missing the end caps that curvy have and are about .5mm thick.

[DavieSV]

The roller bearings on a pointy have intergrated seals, hence the price.

I have a supplier trying to locate some for me at the right price, but when I quoted the number to him, he was a bit weary. Although the bearings are made in Germany, Suzuki may own the rights and may not let other dealers sell them with out a charge to Suzuki.

I was thinking shims, but still don't like the idea of the swing arm being a bearing surface.

[yorkie_chris]

As far as I can see there's no avoiding that, it's how it is on the curvy. Bearings like that can't provide any axial location.

Unless you machined swingarm down and fitted a thrust bearing each end.

[svdemon]

but if you do that you stress frame. Better to take play out with shims.


I'm 100% confident that it won't put any excess stress on the frame, i'm sure they aren't manufactured to such a tight tolerance that a few extra lb/ft of torque will damage it.

[DavieSV]

so you recon that's what it is then?

Suzuki manufacturing tolerance + lack of proper bearing surface + lardy throwing it down the road, unlike the design brief = sloppy swing arm

ohh, I can hear the 'click clack' of loose swing arms being checked up & down the country ;)

[yorkie_chris]

I'm 100% confident that if you bend something to take up 1mm of play it puts stress in it. It's a bit of metal, that's how it works...

Whether it will make any difference is another thing. Probably it won't hurt owt. But better to use a small shim to minimise the bending.

Out of curiosity, how much torque did you need?

[DavieSV]

I'm 100% confident that it won't put any excess stress on the frame, i'm sure they aren't manufactured to such a tight tolerance that a few extra lb/ft of torque will damage it.

It wont put any undue stress on the frame as it only bolts into one side, the threads may be under stress and the spacer tube may deform. the castle nut just secures the other side, don't over tighten that!

[DavieSV]

I'm 100% confident that if you bend something to take up 1mm of play it puts stress in it. It's a bit of metal, that's how it works...

Whether it will make any difference is another thing. Probably it won't hurt owt. But better to use a small shim to minimise the bending.

Out of curiosity, how much torque did you need?

Must be alot to compress a tube axially by 1mm :smt107

[yorkie_chris]

But the bearings can slide so any pressure you put on the threads transfer straight through the spacer tube to the other side of the frame.

[svdemon]

Its not a case of putting stress on it, its how much stress. The pointy frame is made of aluminium alloy which fortunately is a very malleable metal, it takes a lot of compression before it will suffer stress worth talking about. 0.5mm is not going to give you any problems.

[yorkie_chris]

Malleability is a measure of plastic deformation which is permanent, not good.

Cast alloy is far from malleable. It tends to be quite brittle.

[DavieSV]

The spindle bolt acts s if it only conected to one side of the frame, this secures everything in place, any torque you put into this will only act on the chain side of the frame.

that is why the head of this bolt is threaded, the castlated nut then supports the head of the spindle reative to the other side of the frame, this once again allows for a margin of error in manufacturing. the internal gap between the frame doesn't matter.

[fastdruid]

Interesting the different ways manufacturers do things, I can't help but think the way Honda do it is better[1] as there is no need to shim or worry about tolerances leading to slop.

FWIW no freeplay on my SV last time I checked, even the linkages were all nice :)
http://www.fastdruid.co.uk/albums/SV650/thumbs/640x480DSC05527.JPG

Druid

[1] In the VFR the LHS is free to slide from side to side on the bearing inner, the swingarm is prevented from moving by a pair of bearings which butt against a step in the LHS inner side of the swingarm and a circlip to the right. These bearings are then clamped to the RHS of the frame. The modern CBR600RR is very very similar.

[DavieSV]

Its not a case of putting stress on it, its how much stress. The pointy frame is made of aluminium alloy which fortunately is a very malleable metal, it takes a lot of compression before it will suffer stress worth talking about. 0.5mm is not going to give you any problems.


Malleable = hit it with a hammer, it dints.
Brittle = hit it with a hammer, it breaks.

[yorkie_chris]

Ok so you tighten bolt, shoulder on spindle presses bearing inner on chain side (other side on curvy).

Force on bearing inner presses internal spacer, internal spacer presses on the other bearing inner which presses on the frame. So tension on the spindle is pushing the sides of the frame apart.

Unless something is markedly different with the pointy construction

[DavieSV]

Ok so you tighten bolt, shoulder on spindle presses bearing inner on chain side (other side on curvy).

Force on bearing inner presses internal spacer, internal spacer presses on the other bearing inner which presses on the frame. So tension on the spindle is pushing the sides of the frame apart.

Unless something is markedly different with the pointy construction

you are correct chris, now I've woke up :salut:

[fastdruid]

Ok so you tighten bolt, shoulder on spindle presses bearing inner on chain side (other side on curvy).

Force on bearing inner presses internal spacer, internal spacer presses on the other bearing inner which presses on the frame. So tension on the spindle is pushing the sides of the frame apart.

Almost, the spindle is tightened into the frame from the RHS, this attempts to force the frame apart, the lock nut is then applied to prevent it from moving and the nut on the LHS clamps the frame and prevents it from pushing the sides of the frame apart.

AFAICS the pointy is the same way round as the curvy too, unless later bikes swapped.

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/47/Year/2006/ModelID/7727/Model/SV650,S,A/GroupID/368739/Group/REAR_SWINGING_ARM_

I personally would rather shim it than over tighten it.

Druid

[yorkie_chris]

But also compressing the spacer inside with same force, so which is stronger!

I think you need to grind down the spacer so the bearing inners are flush with the outers. (if they stick out). Then have some washers so the ends of the swingarm bear there.

I don't get where you have play in OP. How have you clamped it to measure?

[yorkie_chris]

Almost, the spindle is tightened into the frame from the RHS, this attempts to force the frame apart, the lock nut is then applied to prevent it from moving and the nut on the LHS clamps the frame and prevents it from pushing the sides of the frame apart.


How? It is only applying force on LHS spar, it cannot negate by tension a compression the other way.

how to describe it? you can't stand in a bucket and pick yourself up by the handle.

[fastdruid]

How? It is only applying force on LHS spar, it cannot negate by tension a compression the other way.

how to describe it? you can't stand in a bucket and pick yourself up by the handle.

Force is applied outwards from tightening the spindle, this presses the entire swingarm assembly against the LHS pushing it out, agreed?

But the spindle does not screw into the LHS frame, there is a nut on the end and tightening that nut compresses the entire assembly tensioning the swingarm and with it LHS frame essentially into the shoulder on the RHS of the spindle.

Druid

[DavieSV]

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6726/picture.jpg (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/picture.jpg/)

I past the spindle bolt through the assy. and spaced it out and tightened the nut to apply pressure to the outside of the two inner bushes

[yorkie_chris]

Force is applied outwards from tightening the spindle, this presses the entire swingarm assembly against the LHS pushing it out, agreed?

But the spindle does not screw into the LHS frame, there is a nut on the end and tightening that nut compresses the entire assembly tensioning the swingarm and with it LHS frame essentially into the shoulder on the RHS of the spindle.

Druid

the more you tighten the spindle into the frame (one end only), the 'bigger' the spindle-bearing-spacer-bearing part is aye?

If you make it 5mm bigger by screwing it in 5 turns or whatever the pitch is then it will spread the frame by that amount. The only way tightening the locknut on the other side will help is if you apply enough force to compress the spacer back to its original dimension.

If the shoulder of the spindle and the bearing assembly was rigid then any measurement of the spindle shoulder screwing in must push the frame out.

[fastdruid]

the more you tighten the spindle into the frame (one end only), the 'bigger' the spindle-bearing-spacer-bearing part is aye?

If you make it 5mm bigger by screwing it in 5 turns or whatever the pitch is then it will spread the frame by that amount. The only way tightening the locknut on the other side will help is if you apply enough force to compress the spacer back to its original dimension.

If the shoulder of the spindle and the bearing assembly was rigid then any measurement of the spindle shoulder screwing in must push the frame out.

Yep, that just about sums it up.

Druid

[svdemon]

Malleable = hit it with a hammer, it dints.
Brittle = hit it with a hammer, it breaks.

Correct

[yorkie_chris]

And pure aluminium is malleable. Cast tends to be brittle. Mostly in the HAZ of any welds.

[DavieSV]

I've decided I'm going to shim the bushes on both sides.

I've got a brass job to do tomorrow on the lathe, so I'll make a couple of brass washes up to sit between the head of the bush and the end of the swing arm pivot tube. Then bolt it all together and see what it like.

I toyed with the idea of skimming the end of the bushes down, but that would offset the swing arm a little and would be non-reversable.

[svdemon]

We're only talking a quarter of a turn on the nut, 0.5mm either side at the wheel is more like 0.1mm at the swingarm mount.

[DavieSV]

We're only talking a quarter of a turn on the nut, 0.5mm either side at the wheel is more like 0.1mm at the swingarm mount.

:confused:

[yorkie_chris]

Maybe up/down depending where you are in the travel but side to side play there (note; not angular) will be direct. .5mm at pivot will be .5mm at wheel

[DavieSV]

correct

[Sid Squid]

First off I'd make sure that everything is right and in the right place. No disrespect intended - I'm sure it is all the right bits - but it's worth checking there isn't a rogue bit in there somewhere.

Then, assuming it is, I'd do this:
I think you need to grind down the spacer so the bearing inners are flush with the outers. (if they stick out). Then have some washers so the ends of the swingarm bear there.
Or a suitable spacer, (or spacers; depending whether I wanted to move the swingarm to the left/right, or share it out side to side), with a larger inner diameter than the bearing inner bush, and grind its/their thickness so the swingarm is the same width as the bearing assembly, (with suitable clearance, obviously.

[punyXpress]

Have you got even wear on inner/outer edges of rear sprocket? If not it MAY indicatewhole rear end is located a bit sideways.

[Mannerheim]

Interesting! I hope conversation goes on althought I take part:D

DavieSV: you are not missing anything (there is difference with pointy vs curvy), I am sure that there in no parts that can wear like this. So what is left is manufacturing mistake. Spacers (bushes) have wrong dimension, I think center spacer is too long. I strongly believe that there is several bikes that have this problem but this is not very common. Otherwise people in good forums like this would straight have ideas about reason or answers what to do. I have asked this around world and I have got answers that there should be 1.5mm gap ”as otherwise swing arm can’t move freely”. I don’t believe that. Everybody who knows what is saying says that there should not be the gap. At the moment I think that bike is dangerous if there is so big play. My pointy bike makes strange moves and I believe this gap is the reason or atleast biggest reason. I bought original Suzuki bearings and spacers (190e ! luckily dealer paid 150e), but there is no sense to change them: I measured bearing spacer and it has exactly same lenght as old. Looks that you are thinking if to use shims to correct this. I am not sure what to do. If you put shims you might next year have swing arm with bad grooves made by shims. I don’t know. Maybe best is to machine bearing spacer, then you have correct parts contacting each other. But as you said then there is no way back. If you put shims I think you should put them on RHS, if LHS => rear wheel is shifted to right. Spacer machining don’t do that. Could you please tell your conclusions here as I understood that you try shims tomorrow.
Bibio: can you confirm that I understood correctly. Do you mean that you have checked several SVs and they all have this play? I checked other Suzukis in dealer and none of them had play. Two experienced Suzuki mechanics have said that there should not be any play. Unfortunately I have not found any other SV to check it by myself.

SVdemon: maybe we are discussing different issues. This gap is not possible to handle with over torquing. Believe me, I tried, it is not possible to shrink stiff center spacer 1.5mm.

Yorkie Chris: if I understood correctly you mean (answer 20) that bearings transfer force axially in this package. I don’t think so. Bearing spacer should contact swing arm, not bearing in axial direction. Bearing is not active part in axial direction.

Fastdruid: I believe still that SV construction is very good. For example Bandit type is not so good: tight machining tolerance that there is no excessive gap (needs some), expensive and difficult to assemble. I think that shim plates are not good, Honda has them in some models. SV is cheap, easy to assemble and ensures easy move. (I didn’t study your text carefully what type is VFR)

I have this general question: I think that shaft torque 15Nm is so small that there should not be any gap at all, instead small torque makes it possible for swing arm to move freely (I mean without any gap there), when shaft pushes bearing spacers against swing arm and that package against LHS frame. Does someone disagree?

Lots of blaa-blaa…

[yorkie_chris]

Yorkie Chris: if I understood correctly you mean (answer 20) that bearings transfer force axially in this package. I don’t think so. Bearing spacer should contact swing arm, not bearing in axial direction. Bearing is not active part in axial direction.

In post #20 I was meaning the tension on the spindle equating to a force on the opposite side of the frame.

On the curvy there is a cap with a steel washer. It is a snug fit over the end of the swingarm. This part ends up clamped rigidly to the spacer tube/frame so it is stationary. The swingarm spins within this and it is this that provides axial location/reaction force and allows movement.
It is only a thin washer so it will allow some flex (i.e if the spacer is too short, the edges may flex outward slightly).

So you should have bought curvy :D

[Mannerheim]

Ok!
Yeah - lets see if I next summer sell this machine to the insurance company ;)

[svdemon]

SVdemon: maybe we are discussing different issues. This gap is not possible to handle with over torquing. Believe me, I tried, it is not possible to shrink stiff center spacer 1.5mm.



I built the swingarm assembly back up and found the movement was still there, I torqued the nut up another quarter turn and the movement is gone. I checked the swingarm moved freely and it did. I'm happy I have no slop in the bearings and therefore I trust my bike more in corners. I'll eat my hat if the frame cracks as a result of that!

[fastdruid]

Fastdruid: I believe still that SV construction is very good. For example Bandit type is not so good: tight machining tolerance that there is no excessive gap (needs some), expensive and difficult to assemble. I think that shim plates are not good, Honda has them in some models. SV is cheap, easy to assemble and ensures easy move. (I didn’t study your text carefully what type is VFR)

My VFR is an FJ but the CBR600RR uses virtually the same technique.

http://www.bike-parts.fr/h/motog/13ML7G41/IMGE/thumb900900_F__2400.gif

Druid

[Mannerheim]

^ok.
Svdemon: yes I believe frame won't crack cause of that. Looks that you have more "ordinary bearing problem" than I. My bike has so big issue that it can't be handled like yours.

[DavieSV]

I bought original Suzuki bearings and spacers (190e ! luckily dealer paid 150e), but there is no sense to change them: I measured bearing spacer and it has exactly same lenght as old

If that is the case, then the problem must be with the length of the bearing housing pivot tube on the swing arm itself.

Just for the record my frame No is JS1BY132200104735. It may just be one or two random parts that escaped the quality control or there may be a batch of swing arms out there with the same problem.

There is no wear marks on the end faces of the tube and there is still signs of paint, so the tube has not been shortened through wear.

I have made various shims. The problem now lies in what side to put them.
There is no way of telling if the eube is short on the left or right side. The bores in the end of the tube that house the bearings seem to be the same depth, so it just depends on which end located on the welding jig.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6460/picture004uu.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/picture004uu.jpg/)

I have placed one 0.5mm shim on both ends of the tube. It has eliminated all play and the shaft still rotates freely.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6225/picture003er.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/picture003er.jpg/)

I can get the wheels in line by using the chain adjusters. I'll just have to wait untill I get it all together to check sprockets are in line but I think everything will be OK.

I'll try and get it in the frame later tonight and see the results with all the nuts torqued up, but I am confident this will eliminate my problem.

[yorkie_chris]

Alignment will not be changed as your shim is flat. Only thing I would worry about is offsetting the chain. If you put the shim on same side as the threads in the frame then your swingarm is in exact same place as it's still located solidly against the LHS of the frame. (is it the LHS one pointy?)

[DavieSV]

I know what you mean, but I still don't know which side of the swing arm is short, If it's the left hand side then that's where the shims would need to go.

[Sid Squid]

Slight faff I know, but take off the chain, reassemble everything with shims and torque-up correctly, take a straight edge of the rear sprocket to where it meets the front, it should be obvious if there's any misalignment.
That said I can't see a half mill either way upsetting anything greatly.

[Bibio]

watching this thread with interest.

[Mannerheim]

I guess that is all about this issue here. DavieSV put washers and is happy.

I have still few months to think but plan is to machine bearing spacer. Then I can be sure that correct parts are contacting each other and I don't have to use any extra parts (washers).

If someone has opinion I would like to hear answer (once more, my swing arm is too narrow compared to the lenght of two bearing spacers and center spacer): if gap is 1.50mm, should I machine more/less/exactly 1.50mm away from bearing spacer? I think best is something like 1.60mm. Then there is no gap at all and as shaft is torqued up to only 15Nm it allows swing arm to move freely.

[2F45T4U]

Im in the process of changing the swing arm bearings on my '04 K3. Just came in for a cup of tea and found others have had the same problem....and it seems they have!

I removed the swing arm and brought it to the bench. cleaned it all up and measuered everything and found no wear on the inner races, apart from some very slight discolouration.
I put the spindle back though the races and fitted a temporary spacer to take up the space on the threads that the frame would occupy and i tightened the thing up. To my surprise there was axial play in the whole assembly!
seeing as i bought a bearing kit anyway, i changed them out. Wish i hadnt bothered as the problem was exacltly the same with the new bearings.
i feeler'd the gap between the flange face of the inner race and the alloy of the swing arm and found there to be 0.8mm clearence.
3 things could have happened here, the swing arm alloy has worn away on the faces which would act on the flange of the race (unlikely if others say its the case with new bikes). the spacer tube is 0.8mm too long, or each inner race 'tube' is 0.4mm long.

I didnt want to face the spacer tube off on the lathe because this would have made the over all assembly short by 0.8mm. this space would have to be taken up by distorting the frame as the spindle was tightened agains the outside nut. you might have got away with it, but it seemed excessive. Instead, I made up a shim at 0.8mm and wet&dry'd it down by a ball hair until there was free rotation on the tightened spindle but no axial play.

hopefully this will cure the head shake/wiggle when you crack on the power which you can feel through the bars, and also the nervous feeling it has when you drop it hard into a corner!

my new bearing 'kit' although apparently being correct for my model, has different inner races. There like tubes apposed to the ones i have which have the flange on them. Is this the kit for the curvey ive ended up with? Lucky my inners were ok so il reuse them

il finish my tea then back out to box it back up again. Least it was a good chance to change the sprockets, chain and grease up the suspension linkage! but feel robbed of a £55 bearing kit i didnt need and wasnt correct for my bike.

Cheers!

[Mannerheim]

Also I bought new expencive bearings for nothing. It is "nice" to hear that other bikes have this same problem. I think there is now only 3 cases in this very intelligent forum. I would say that there must be a lot of bikes with this fault, but probably lot of people won't realize the problem and maybe some don't care. This is factory mistake. I am sure that no wearing would have caused this. Swing arm alloy is not worn.

My bike was dangerous in corners. I made a shim and now bike is much better.

In previous message there was some words that I didn't understand. Was it so that you have bought some kit which you believe is for curvey?

[2F45T4U]

...... Was it so that you have bought some kit which you believe is for curvey?

Yes, i think so.

my inner races have a flange/flat face machined on the ends.
The inner races in the kit had no flanges and looked as if they should be fitted to a model which had washers that were to be in there place. I thought maybe this kit was for a curvey?

I have just put the bike back together. Everything is on except the new chain. Already there seems to be less play and i havent torqued up the wheel and the spindle yet.

will finish it and go for a run tomorrow.

Beer time!

[Dave20046]

subscribed
Yes, i think so.

my inner races have a flange/flat face machined on the ends.
The inner races in the kit had no flanges and looked as if they should be fitted to a model which had washers that were to be in there place. I thought maybe this kit was for a curvey?

I have just put the bike back together. Everything is on except the new chain. Already there seems to be less play and i havent torqued up the wheel and the spindle yet.

will finish it and go for a run tomorrow.

Beer time!
I'm far from an expert (infact planning on checking my linkage for the first time tomorrow) but from what I've read on the internet you may just have pattern parts rather than ones for the wrong bike.

I know that may not be all that helpful but might be worth double checking before accusing the seller of giving you the wrong bits as I ahem...hear ..that's quite embarassing.

[2F45T4U]

subscribed

I'm far from an expert (infact planning on checking my linkage for the first time tomorrow) but from what I've read on the internet you may just have pattern parts rather than ones for the wrong bike.

I know that may not be all that helpful but might be worth double checking before accusing the seller of giving you the wrong bits as I ahem...hear ..that's quite embarassing.

Im not accusing the seller of anything, i ordered the correct kit for my bike (by year/model etc) off Wemoto and im asking why its different. Im not even bothered as ive used the original inner races anyway. i was just curious if it was to be used with additional washers or if anyone else had noticed.

For what its worth, one of the races on the bottom yoke of the rear suspension (where the yoke meets the frame) was pretty stiff and rusty but it came alright with a wash out and exercise in diesel and re packing with grease. Struck me as odd how it was shimmed in there so accurately, yet the swing arm had been totally neglected of such care and fine tollerance. :confused: I guess the swing arm was designed on a friday afternoon.

[Spanner Man]

I guess that is all about this issue here. DavieSV put washers and is happy.

I have still few months to think but plan is to machine bearing spacer. Then I can be sure that correct parts are contacting each other and I don't have to use any extra parts (washers).

If someone has opinion I would like to hear answer (once more, my swing arm is too narrow compared to the lenght of two bearing spacers and center spacer): if gap is 1.50mm, should I machine more/less/exactly 1.50mm away from bearing spacer? I think best is something like 1.60mm. Then there is no gap at all and as shaft is torqued up to only 15Nm it allows swing arm to move freely.



Good morning all.


I have seen quite a few SV's like with this problem. Like Davie, I tend to turn shims to overcome the issue.

I have on occasion shortened the internal spacer. If the gap is 1.5mm shorten the spacer by around 1.2mm, fit it all, & see how it is. If there's still a little play shorten it a touch more.
As Sid says, it's a bit of a faff to have to keep re-fitting the swinging arm, & torquing everything up. However, if you take too much off the spacer you will have stuffed it!
How do I know this? On one occasion, (& in a moment of cleverness). I shortened the spacer by exactly the amount of play I had measured. It was beautifully smooth with no end float when I had torqued the spindle to 15nm. However, when I torqued the spindle nut up, it was binding slightly. BUG*ER!
Fortunately, having a big Lathe, & plenty of bar stock, I was able to make a new spacer quickly. It was still a bloody pain though.


Cheers.

[2F45T4U]

Good morning all.

As Sid says, it's a bit of a faff to have to keep re-fitting the swinging arm, & torquing everything up.



Thats why you load up the bearings on the bench with the spindle and a spacer or screwd-rod to test it before fitting it to the bike.

[DavieSV]

It's just Suzuki quality ;)
Mine wasn't wear, it still had paint on the end of the bearing tube.

Just fit shims :)

It is no bother fitting & removing the swing arm a few times to get it right, it's only one shaft...

I think DarrenSV650S (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=4711) has some shims left over, PM him.

[Dave20046]

Just checked my bearings , a reassuring amount of grease but movement is a bit gritty , will see if I can get away with cleaning and regreaseing... the spacers are pretty discoloured , should I worry about it?

Also what's considered excessive play? Service book is pretty vague. When pulling the spacers in and out there's some side to side movement but nothing drastic , how much Is there supposed to be?

[yorkie_chris]

None!

[Dave20046]

Stupid manual ,why didn't it just say check there's no play then
Its marginal and only when they're pulled out a fair bit but I'll just replace them. Where's best to go?

[yorkie_chris]

How do you mean pulled out?

What you are interested in is what it feels like when all on bike and torqued up.

[Dave20046]

How do you mean pulled out?

What you are interested in is what it feels like when all on bike and torqued up.

THe manual says pull the spacers out and see if there's excessive movement while they're half out .
Will torque it back up and check movement

[yorkie_chris]

What is excessive?

Only good thing you can do with it in bits is to rotate each bearing to see if it is smooth.

[Dave20046]

What is excessive?

Only good thing you can do with it in bits is to rotate each bearing to see if it is smooth.

Exactly and no they're not smooth atm
Will put it back in

[Dave20046]

yep there's a good bit of movement thanks to a gap between the spacer shoulder and the swingarm, same as other people have detailed


http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/dave20046/dump/23cef6d5.jpg
and torqued:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/dave20046/dump/56ec95e3.jpg

[Dave20046]

If I need to change the bearings is 'the special bearing tool' necessary or is there an improvisation to be done?

Also, if I want to go to an industrial bearing supplier trade type place - what do you ask for? I take it they won't have access to what bearing is on what bike - is it a case of measuring each or are they documented somewhere?
Ta in advance :)

[Bibio]

i have looked everywhere for those bearings at a cheaper pricebut to no avail..

check suzuki's bike of the month :thumbsup:

[Dave20046]

Cheers bibio, but it's bandit this month (damns it!)

I've seen an old post of YC's on the subject saying marksman industrial do koyo at a good price but I've just had a look and it looks like they need sizes - might measure them all for a laugh.

Did you use the proper tool to swap them?

[DavieSV]

I made a little collet type thing to hammer the main swing arm bearings out, worked a treat :cool:
I destroyed the linkage bearings getting those out.

I asked our bearing supplier to try to get hold of some bearings, as soon as I gave him the number, he knew they were german bearings made for suzuki and they wouldn't sell them to anyone else. It's all to do with the seal in the end of the bearing.

My main bearing weren't too bad, so they went back in, the linkage bearings I subsituted for some normal needle bearings, pushed them in a bit further and placed tiny lip seals in the ends, works well ;)

[Dave20046]

nice one , i'll get busy then.they may be salvagable - after a quick degrease they almost felt smooth, after regreasing they may be okay, if not I'll bite the bullet and pay up.

cheers for the info chaps

[Dave20046]

Also, it's quite interesting that this is being noted across quite a few bikes, as soon as I got my swingarm out it was obvious it was wrong - wonder how many people servicing them have just put them back without shimming?!

[yorkie_chris]

My main bearing weren't too bad, so they went back in, the linkage bearings I subsituted for some normal needle bearings, pushed them in a bit further and placed tiny lip seals in the ends, works well ;)

I've done same with some O rings. Seems to be lasting OK.

[Bibio]

dave if you check the part numbers they are the same bearing m8. same as the bike of last month.

[Dave20046]

£170 the set! will definitely double check I need up, cheers bibio
couldn't see part numbers though

[Bibio]

to cross referance i use this

http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki

just copy/paste the part number from the generated voucher from the suzuki site into 'where used' on the ron ayers site.

[Dave20046]

cheers bibio :)

[Dave20046]

Upon reassembling my lot I've found similar gaps on the cush - gaps between the dog bones and the swingarm/cush lever faces caused by spacers being marginally longer than their housing. Can someone just confirm this is correct and the bike's not lost anything at any point?


Also less likely to be correct, but there's a similar gap either side of the cush lever where the bottom of the shock absorber attaches. Is this normal/a problem or do I need some washers?


pics available if anyone needs them from my probably poor description

[yorkie_chris]

Side gap on cushion lever thing is fine... only swingarm has side loads

[Dave20046]

Nice one ,will get it back together
Ta

[Ratty]

Hey guys

I've got the swingarm off my SV1000S K5 at the moment and have the Suzuki gap of exactly 1 mm measured with feelers. Has anybody still got a spare set of shims to suit ( 30 mm ID ) and did people shim half either side or all on RHS ? Surprisingly all the bearings are smooth, free and plenty of grease at 24000 miles. I was expecting them to be dry and crusty. I wonder if they were stripped and greased in the first 6000 of the bikes life. Maybe Lozzo once owned it !

Thanks Ratty

[DavieSV]

Hi Ratty
Pm theguru or darrensv650s to see if they have any left. They were the last ones to need any as far as I know.
If they don't have enough, I'll make some more up.
I put some on both sides, but it depends on your wheel and sprocket alignment.
Let me know how you get on.

[The Guru]

I was unsuccesful in getting them. Darren passed them onto Speedyctr but he couldnt find them.

So I also still need them.

[DavieSV]

I'll have a look to see if I have any brass left & make some more.

[The Guru]

That would be ace. :thumleft:

[speedyctr]

Not forgot Guru they've still not been found sorry. I would honestly loose my head... ](*,)

[Ratty]

I'll have a look to see if I have any brass left & make some more.

That would be ace Davie. I take it mine are the same as the 650 at 30mm ID. My gap is 1mm. What do you recommend for final clearance ? Maybe 0.2mm ( 8 thou ) ?

Ratty

[DavieSV]

Sorry for the delay folks...

I have some brass in now, so could get some shims out within the week.

The 650 shims are 38mm outside diameter & 25mm inside diameter.
Does any one know the outside diameter of the 1000 bearing collars?

Hey guys

Has anybody still got a spare set of shims to suit ( 30 mm ID )

Thanks Ratty

[Bibio]

the bearing is 30X40X33 so i would say 30mmx46?mm

[Ratty]

I think I did mine 30 ID, 40 OD so that they matched the bearing. The bearing was very slightly recessed on one side so I need it to fit in the recess and not work on the thrust face of the swing arm. I have a nice smooth action with no end float. Shimmed it all on the non chain side for best alignment. Hope this helps.

Ratty

[TicklinJock]

My naked K5 with 15K Miles failed it's MOT last week for excessive play in the swingarm. I knew the front bearing on the rear suspension knuckle had a lot of play too as it felt clunky in the vertical direction. So, I ordered a bearing kit for each. They arrived today so I set about swapping them.
The new bearing and spacer for the front of the knuckle have as much play, if not more, than the existing. :-( The existing bearings in the swingarm seem OK and are made by INA Germany. Makes me wonder if they've been swapped out already. The existing spacers are flanged with the 1mm gap others have mentioned. The spacers that came in the kit don't have the 3mm thick flange, so will make the overall length 6mm short. :-(
I wonder if the combination of these 2 sources of play is what the MOT inspector was finding.

Is there a simple method of pulling those bearings in the double bearing arrangement without the use of special tools?

[Bibio]

i have found that you need to replace the washers on the knuckle bearing or it slops about. there is always side to side play but there should be no up/down play. believe this or not and i have mentioned this before but there is play in the swingarm bearing from new.

how i sorted the play in mine was to take one of the bushes and grind it down so there was about 0.5mm play left when the swing arm was off and moving both bushes side to side while installed in the bearings.

i have access to a surface grinder so was able to do it properly.

so bike up an an abba stand there should be a little play side to side but no play up and down.

[Longway]

I have a K3 with 27k on the clock and can't really say I have any handling issues with the bike, in fact I'm quite pleased with it, but then again I'm not one for pushing it to the limits.

Today, I took a day off work to do a routine winter check of the swingarm and shocker linkage bearings on my K3 (the first in my ownership) and was a bit worried to find side play on the swingarm, I was hoping I could just tighten up the spindle a little to remove the play but to no avail, now after reading this thread it appears I too have the same problem as many with the side play. Unfortunately I have no access to any engineering facilities to make up some shims, could anyone point me in the right direction as to where I may get some? Thanks

[TicklinJock]

I left the side float as it was (1mm). My swingarm bearings were fine. So only replaced the knuckle bearings and spacers/bushes to remove the vertical play. Explained this to the MOT assessor and he passed it.

[wideguy]

After reading through a lot of this, then looking at the installation diagram in the MM, then looking at my SV, lifting the rear and checking for side play, I have to say, I must be missing something.
This is a very similar system to the front axle.
If you installed the parts in proper order (1 pivot bolt, 2 hex nut, 3 castle nut) and torque them properly (15NM, 100Nm and 90Nm), there can't be any side play at the pivot.
Just like the front axle, it's made to apply sufficient pressure to the spacers so the inner races of the bearings won't spin. 15Nm on the pivot bolt will push the arms apart, slightly, as it compresses the spacers and inner bearing races.
There will be a gap on the castle nut side between the dust cover and the swingarm, but it's of no importance. The dust cover, and thus the spacers and inner bearing races, are secured by the shoulder on the castle nut end of the pivot bolt.
Surely you must be talking about side play at the rear end of the swingarm? A mm there would likely be normal. Mines less than that, maybe .5mm. I'm happy.