What do you think to Apple? [Archive] - SV650.org

beabert

28-01-10, 09:53 AM

I dont know why but I cant help but dislike them, similar to my inherant dislike of religious teachings and supernatural "stuff" (not meaning to cause any offence, its just how I am...).

So im wondering if im alone or if the majority of people love Apple and all the gimmiky (imo) stuff they churn out.

So post your thoughts, keep it on apple though, I dont want OSX vs Windows whatever arguments. :rolleyes:

I agree, but i think mainly it is the price that bugs me, and in many ways inferior hardware. Comparing them to religious teachings is harse lol

speedplay

28-01-10, 09:55 AM

I don't buy into it.

The same as I don't drive a left hand drive car..

warrenhewitt10

28-01-10, 09:55 AM

im sorry ive got a macbook that hasnt crashed once in 6months, and once you use a mac properly u just wont want a windows computer again, ive got parallel desktops running for uni work, but windows just properly depresses me llf and yes they do cost more but they are just better im sorry lol

ThEGr33k

28-01-10, 09:56 AM

I agree, but i think mainly it is the price that bugs me, and in many ways inferior hardware. Comparing them to religious teachings is harse lol

Yea, price is certainly an issue for me too... Especially now their Mac's are effectively PC's with OSX on them :rolleyes:

Could be a little harsh... oh well. :p

zsv650

28-01-10, 09:57 AM

they need too compete on price now especially since 7 is arguably better than the mac equivalent.

ThEGr33k

28-01-10, 09:59 AM

they need too compete on price now especially since 7 is arguably better than the mac equivalent.

Indeed, not starting an argument about which is better (cos I dont care, OSX cant play games... it loses for that off the bat imo) but Windows 7 is great! :)

beabert

28-01-10, 10:00 AM

I dont know why but I cant help but dislike them, similar to my inherant dislike of religious teachings and supernatural "stuff" (not meaning to cause any offence, its just how I am...).

So im wondering if im alone or if the majority of people love Apple and all the gimmiky (imo) stuff they churn out.

So post your thoughts, keep it on apple though, I dont want OSX vs Windows whatever arguments. :rolleyes:

EDIT: What brought this up is the launch of the new Ipad...

they need too compete on price now especially since 7 is arguably better than the mac equivalent.

They have had to budge so much that they are essentially a PC now, which makes me laugh when you see there adds. They should start selling OSX.

metalangel

28-01-10, 10:02 AM

Own two G4 Macs and an iPod classic, love 'em all.

timwilky

28-01-10, 10:03 AM

Last time I used anything Apple it was an Apple IIe. great little compter in its day with huge Winchester drive hung off it, but grossly underpowered for what I was trying to do. so never touched anything Apple since.

zsv650

28-01-10, 10:03 AM

i do think though that their handheld gadget's are leading the way the iphone being the one that spring's too mind just look how many immitator's that has and nothing has beat it yet.

beabert

28-01-10, 10:23 AM

i do think though that their handheld gadget's are leading the way the iphone being the one that spring's too mind just look how many immitator's that has and nothing has beat it yet.

Id say its because they dont make any other phone, all advertising and marketing is used on a single device. Where as with google, the g1 was supposed to be the google phone, now its nexus, there will be another, how is any of them gonna reach the iconic status of the iphone if the attentiona and focus is always shifted.

The actual apple hardware becomes inferior quickly for the same reason, the gui is the only superior thing apple has, notice i said GUI and not OS, its the first thing people see, and everyone loves apples gui.

Paul the 6th

28-01-10, 10:26 AM

stupid question but, where the hell is soulkiss? :)

zsv650

28-01-10, 10:27 AM

that goes for all phone's though there's no point trying too stay with the newest or you'd be upgrading every 6 month's and that's pointless.

Kalessin

28-01-10, 10:31 AM

To answer the OP about the iPad:

I switched to a Mac when they went Intel in 2006. It is by far the best machine and OS I have ever used (and I also currently run Linux and Windows on other machines).

I got an 80Gb iPod for Christmas 2006 which holds my entire music library and is still a great piece of kit.

I bought an iPhone in 2008, then upgraded to an iPhone 3G in the summer. I'm now out of contract but can't find a better phone anywhere (next iPhone rumoured to be released at Apple's WWDC in the summer, so I'll wait for that!).

But the iPad... I don't get it. It's been touted as Apple's answer to netbooks and tablet PCs, but it's not a proper PC. It runs a version of the iPhone OS, meaning you can't buy and install applications on it yourself, they have to go through the iTunes store. So it's actually a glorified iPod Touch, but about £300 more.

I think this destined to go the way of the Apple TV. It's a very niche market, and the device has an insufficient featureset and lack of user control to appeal to the majority. I predict the iPad will mainly be bought by people who want to be seen to have one. Apple say it bridges the gap between phone and laptop. I don't think there is a gap.

L3nny

28-01-10, 10:32 AM

Have you seen that stupid Ipad thing.

It's basically a netbook with no keyboard, no mouse pad, no USB ports, no card adapters and a very small hard drive.

And costs twice as much as a normal netbook.

However people will sell their granny to buy it.

beabert

28-01-10, 10:33 AM

that goes for all phone's though there's no point trying too stay with the newest or you'd be upgrading every 6 month's and that's pointless.

I agree, but its a disadvantage to new customers. Its a balancing act, and as long are the customers are happy, theres no need to change.

beabert

28-01-10, 10:34 AM

I echo the reponses regarding the ipad.

zsv650

28-01-10, 10:35 AM

i don't see the point in the ipad the whole idea of a netbook is there supposed too be cheap can't help but think they've completely missed the point.

pookie

28-01-10, 10:48 AM

the designs are fashionable and look like more like an accessory . I hate the way things used to have proprietary upgrades on macs and even now restricting replacement batteries and usable parts means that its basically a disposable item. At at the price premium they charge for their ithings its a bit of a mickey take.

Grinch

28-01-10, 11:02 AM

iPad... is that like a geography teachers jacket pads?

Mr Speirs

28-01-10, 11:10 AM

I think the whole idea with the iPad is that in a few years all laptops are essentially going to be touchscreen pad type things.
Maybe apple are trying to get ahead of the game and get a few months real world use which will then lead onto the next generation of lappads.

I currently own a Macbook, a Apple G5 and an iPhone. I really like using apples stuff and get frustrated using a PC. Oh an in the whole time of owning all three machines only once did my G5 crash when the graphics card failed (third party part) and that was 6 years ago...yes my G5 is 7 years old and still as quick as the day I bought it.

There are two things that bug me about Apple and their followers and haters.
1. People that are so blinkered and would buy an Apple Toaster if they bought one out. Remember you only bought an iPhone...you didn't invent it!!!

2. People that randomly think cos you bought an Apple you are stupid, and that you have bought 'inferior' technology. Fact is Apple throughout their history have made innovations that have helped PC users.

jambo

28-01-10, 11:11 AM

I like apple products. I think they make some of the best thought out products you can buy. Compare the iPod to almost anything else and you have to admire the way it's put together. I've used OSX on and off when the need hass come up since ~2003, and I really like that too. It's stable, efficient and pretty. Perfect.
I think it's great that Macs now run Intel hardware, makes duel booting easy if you've got a need to occasionally run a native copy of Windows, rather than just a VM.

What I dislike is that if you wish to do something other than the way they have ordained then life becomes hard. Should you want to move your music to another computer you really had better be careful how you do it, or iTunes will stop recognising the lot...
I also have zero time for the fan boys telling me that once I've used an apple product my life will somehow be better than ever before. It's a nice OS, and the products are generally well built, but they're expensive, and by no means the only way to go.

As for the iPad, time will tell. But my suspicion is that the reason there's a gap between smart phones and netbooks is quite simple. One of my mates once pointed out "Once you've got to carry a bag round anyway, you may as well have a laptop with you."

Jambo

P.S I haven't voted because my answer is 2 & 4

L3nny

28-01-10, 11:12 AM

1. People that are so blinkered and would buy an Apple Toaster if they bought one out. Remember you only bought an iPhone...you didn't invent it!!!

Like this :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA

Holdup

28-01-10, 11:16 AM

I like most of their products

except that phone they do

Gemaroo

28-01-10, 11:24 AM

I love Apple products and will buy an iPad the second I can. I was going to buy a Kindle but I won't bother now. And I propbably would buy an iToaster if they made one!

What has slightly annoyed me about the iPad is you will have to pay more for the one with 3G as well as WiFi and will probably have to have some sort of data charge for using 3G as well.

Gem

keithd

28-01-10, 11:24 AM

L3nny

28-01-10, 11:26 AM

to my ignorant mind it seems those that work in the "IT industry" (for want of a better phrase) dislike Apple and their products on the whole. Those of us who don't i.e billions of normal people like their products a lot.

and there are hundreds of thousands who HAVE to have whatever they churn out regardless of how good or bad it is and keep the prices inflated

i just work in packaging so have no idea what im talking about

It may be because the people in the IT industry know exactly what it is that Apple are selling, the billions of normal people don't know what they are buying and just like something trendy and shiny.

Same reason people who know nothing about cars buy the new Beetle

28-01-10, 11:27 AM

I have 3 iPods and an iPhone . They do exactly what they say on the tin and are very easy to use.

Never used any of the other products yet.

Grinch

28-01-10, 11:29 AM

I'm still shocked it ain't got usb, so I can't plug in some photos and show Granny all the snaps on it.

fastdruid

28-01-10, 11:29 AM

Same reason people who know nothing about cars buy the new Beetle

Ah yes, an overpriced version of an overpriced car[1]...

Druid

[1] Which despite their reputation are less reliable than say their Czech branded versions. ;)

keithd

28-01-10, 11:42 AM

It may be because the people in the IT industry know exactly what it is that Apple are selling, the billions of normal people don't know what they are buying and just like something trendy and shiny.

Same reason people who know nothing about cars buy the new Beetle

which was my point

L3nny

28-01-10, 11:44 AM

which was my point

Ah right. Doh

keithd

28-01-10, 11:50 AM

Ah right. Doh

:D

ThEGr33k

28-01-10, 11:59 AM

I think my main bug bear with apple products is that generally speaking they take a product attach a gimmick and sell it like its a fresh idea...

I been doing some reading into Mac's and why people like them and there is no real answer... The best one I seen is that "windows annoys them" but how? Something I dont really understand, its pretty simple to use windows really. An intersting thing I learnt is that apparently 85% of Mac users have windows on the system in some form or other. That leads me to think that you cant just have a Mac, but you can just have a Windows PC...

One last thing that annoys me about the Mac's is that you have to upgrade the whole system, I.E. throw out your old Mac just to get the latest OS. WTF?

Keithd, if the professionals who know about it all and have to work with them choose one over the other then shouldnt that tell you something about the other?

jamesterror

28-01-10, 12:04 PM

Like the products, but the price tags make me think its more of a fashion icon to some people regards iPhone, MacBook and Mac computers.

I use to use Mac's at college for FinalCut and general film development, great but too expensive, the spec of my PC at home cost a quarter of the value, except I have to use more space thats the downfall. There are some at uni in the library, they're only useful I find if you're doing media or developing an advertisement...

I think the iPhone is quality, a few mates at uni have them and get carried away playing with it, but wouldn't pay that money for a phone just because I have the nature to break and damage phones.

I've had 2 Nano's, first one didn't break was too small so decided to get a one with greater capacity, the only issue I have is the lock button is on the bottom because I'm use to it being on top.....

beabert

28-01-10, 12:06 PM

L3nny

28-01-10, 12:08 PM

A mate of mine has a Mac book and the build quality is excellent, thee screen used is really clear and has a great viewing angle, it's small and light, it has good quality speakers and runs really smoothly.

However it cost £800! At least 50% more than a similar spec PC laptop.

If they were a similar price to a PC I'd get one as they are good quality products but they do not justify the extra price.

Plus if I had one I'd just install Windows because of the lack of programs available.

jamesterror

28-01-10, 12:25 PM

Plus if I had one I'd just install Windows because of the lack of programs available.

Thats one of my main issues bar price

fastdruid

28-01-10, 12:31 PM

wyrdness

28-01-10, 12:38 PM

At one point apple were (partly) justified in prices for their 'PC', they were not 'IBM compatible' but Motorola/Power based. Different hardware, different OS.

Now they are just IBM compatible hardware but with a custom bios and some checks to make sure no one runs their OS.

I'd give OSX a try (and I would buy it if I liked it) but I'm not paying *waay* over the odds for standard (if pretty) PC hardware.

Druid

I used to run Linux and Windows, until I bought a Mac for Mrs Wyrdness. I thought that I'd carry on my existing PCs, but found that I was using the Mac for everything. I much prefer OS X to either Linux or Windows, and that's coming from a former Linux nut.

The main downside is that Apple hardware is expensive. However, it hardly depreciates. I've just sold a Mac laptop on Ebay for only £60 less than I bought it for three years ago. Try doing that with a three year old PC laptop. Despite (or maybe because of) the initial high prices, total cost of ownership of Macs is actually lower than PCs.

So from my point of view, I'm getting the best operating system, plus lower overall cost.

wyrdness

28-01-10, 12:45 PM

to my ignorant mind it seems those that work in the "IT industry" (for want of a better phrase) dislike Apple and their products on the whole. Those of us who don't i.e billions of normal people like their products a lot.

and there are hundreds of thousands who HAVE to have whatever they churn out regardless of how good or bad it is and keep the prices inflated

i just work in packaging so have no idea what im talking about

This used to be true, but I think that things have changed now. A lot of people who work in IT are now buying Macs. I put it down to OS X being a great desktop Unix-based operating system.

On the other hand, some geeks really hate Apple because they're only looking at the technical specs and prices, and can't see beyond that. They seem to think that if a product doesn't meet their needs then anybody who does buy it is automatically an idiot.

Woz

28-01-10, 12:49 PM

I used macs at work for quite a few years but I still have PCs at home and have absolutely no intention of changing that.

As for music players, yes they look pretty but there are better out there for the same (or less) money.

The only thing that changes my opinion is the phone. And only then because of the storage capacity for music. Yes, they are obscenely expensive to buy (stand alone or PAYG) but on a contract, they work out the same as any other high end device if not a little less when you look at the data and wi-fi bundles that get thrown in.

What I don't get is the leaning towards large touchscreen computers such as the iPad. The ergonomics just don't seem to work.

yorkie_chris

28-01-10, 12:57 PM

I dislike their bloatware intensely.

I've got an mp3 player for bike music which doesn't bloat my computer at all (all my music is stored on a NAS type box so itunes would be confused). And this idea about paying for music is mental.
Phones? Meh.
Their computers, dunno, never used one. Seem overpriced for the performance you get.

Some comedian said it best "you people with iPhones, remember you just own one, you didn't invent it."

lukemillar

28-01-10, 05:52 PM

Curio

28-01-10, 06:10 PM

if apple hadn't brought out the ipod then they would most probably be bust by now

L3nny

28-01-10, 06:15 PM

Is that a joke?

Kind of, but it's probably true for some Apple owners.

Thingus

28-01-10, 06:53 PM

I think they do things pretty well. Everything they make is sort of focused, and that makes no sense but i know what i mean.

The tablet thing looks great, people say laptops are easily portable but as they've grown more equipped they've become just replacement desktops, with cooling systems designed for a desk or a raised stand rather than your lap!

Netbooks are stupid, it's wordpad in book form. It's light but i wouldn't have one in a million years.

Providing the iPad had an indestructible screen and is quick enough to use as a computer, i think i'd have one in place of my laptop. It looks great and it's really light so i think it's a neat idea. (i dunno if it has an internet option without some kinda expensive contract or something)

yorkie_chris

28-01-10, 08:05 PM

Is that a joke?

Actually it covers most people I know with apple kit.

beabert

28-01-10, 08:16 PM

hence all high school kinds want one, they know nothing about it, but for some reason want an iphone.

anna

28-01-10, 08:26 PM

Well I would say that I like apple, I have a the classic 80GB ipod and I love it, there are a lot of things wrong with it however, and lots that they could improve on.

It seems that the first generation of any apple product has in disputable technical problems with. They have yet to bring out something that has been fully functioning bug free on their first attempt and no doubt the ipad will be no different.

That isnt to say that their products arent good, and that they have a very definite market place in a somewhat saturated market.

They are clever in the advertisement, the "hype" that you all talk about, is what they call free advertisement and this thread alone is testament to it.

Like them or not they are clever.

lukemillar

28-01-10, 08:27 PM

Kind of, but it's probably true for some Apple owners.

Want me to come up with some stereotypes for those working in IT? :wink:

yorkie_chris

28-01-10, 08:30 PM

They have yet to bring out something that has been fully functioning bug free on their first attempt and no doubt the ipad will be no different.

In their defense for a change neither have microsoft

ThEGr33k

28-01-10, 08:36 PM

In their defense for a change neither have microsoft

No but its funny that Apple have the gaul to try and make out that they are somehow better than MS at getting it right... Or at least thats what their "why get Windows 7 it'll only be broken" argument leads me to believe they are trying to make out.

Luke, whats wrong with us IT professionals? :confused:

Bluefish

28-01-10, 08:36 PM

In their defense for a change neither have microsoft

or any mobile phone manufacturer.

flymo

28-01-10, 09:36 PM

A mac is and always has been a PC.

anna

28-01-10, 09:40 PM

No but its funny that Apple have the gaul to try and make out that they are somehow better than MS at getting it right... Or at least thats what their "why get Windows 7 it'll only be broken" argument leads me to believe they are trying to make out.

... and yet most computer companies are now downloading windows 7 onto them straight away, as they believe them to the most reliable, and stable OS out there.

I just love to watch their sales pitch though, that guy could sell batteries to power stations.

ThEGr33k

29-01-10, 08:41 AM

... and yet most computer companies are now downloading windows 7 onto them straight away, as they believe them to the most reliable, and stable OS out there.

I just love to watch their sales pitch though, that guy could sell batteries to power stations.

Haha. Yea i have noticed even in the few days I been using it Windows 7 is unflappable. Happy days :D

yorkie_chris

29-01-10, 12:00 PM

Luke, whats wrong with us IT professionals? :confused:

You all a bunch of pasty faced spotty geeks who go all pukey at the sight of a woman :-({|=

ThEGr33k

29-01-10, 12:02 PM

You all a bunch of pasty faced spotty geeks who go all pukey at the sight of a woman :-({|=

Indeed... but whats that got to do with Apples :p

yorkie_chris

29-01-10, 01:18 PM

Indeed... but whats that got to do with Apples :p

You seen good will hunting? "How do you like them apples?"

ThEGr33k

29-01-10, 02:47 PM

You seen good will hunting? "How do you like them apples?"

Dont think I have... :rolleyes:

Lozzo

31-01-10, 10:41 AM

Kalessin

31-01-10, 11:21 AM

... the smug "look at my new flashyApple product" the owners have.

I don't have that look. There may be some initial childlike excitement when I'm first in possession of a shiny new gadget (and not just Apple gadgets), and I'm sorry if you misinterpret that as smugness.

Normal people like me and most of my friends say "I have to use the phone, be back in a sec", an Apple user will always say "I have to use my iphone, be back in a sec".

I don't ever say that.

Like they won't just mention their laptop, they have to give you the exact model number and colour.

I don't have an Apple laptop. And if I did, it wouldn't have a model number, it would have a model name.

It's the general smug-**** attitude they have about their inferior choice that gets to me

I don't have a smug-**** attitude about any of my inferior choices. I don't even have a smug-**** attitude about my superior choices. When I make a choice, I generally research all the options so that I can make an informed decision. If that decision turns out to have been the right one for me, I am happy.

You know what gets to me? People who write obvious flame-bait bait posts full of ridiculous generalisations designed to upset a specific group of people.

All generalisations are false. Including this one :)

The Basket

31-01-10, 12:56 PM

I am not an apple user but the iPhone is an excellent piece of kit.

You can knock it but even I...who is way too uncool to own such a thing...have to admire it.

Maybe its the 'to be seen to have' rather than the having that gets me.

Feel the same with BMW onwers...

StuL

31-01-10, 01:05 PM

I too , like many other members of this topic, find that its more of a "look at me i have an apple product", rather than actually having it for its features especially in the college/university scene. Dont get me wrong im sure there are apple users that know what they are getting/arent smug about it but there are a lot more that have them to just look "cool".

Kind of reminds me of the Prius fad.

Besides, i love the G1 phone from google. Mostly because it has a proper keyboard. :D

barwel1992

31-01-10, 01:17 PM

Kalessin

31-01-10, 03:34 PM

a far supeior mashine that costs half as much and is twice as good ....

Such as...?

jambo

31-01-10, 03:58 PM

I'm happy to live in an age where we've got genuine choices in our operating systems, none of which cause too many major issues. Microsoft's Windows is genuinely better than it's ever been. Mac's OSX continues to develop well and there's a huge range of well supported Linux distributions if you feel that way inclined.

Yes Apple hardware is dear, but so are sony vaio laptops (of which I have 2) and the Mac's I've looked at lately are much, much tougher than the vaio's which are a git for breaking screens if you're not careful.

Horses for courses, if your choice of hardware and software causes you to claim everyone else's choices, if different to yours, are wrong regardless of their requirements. Then this thread will be full of things to anger you, as it contains valid and differing opinions.

Jambo

thedonal

31-01-10, 04:18 PM

the only thing i will ever buy from apple is a ipod, hate the i mac's mac books and now that new crappy Ipad(panty liner)

imac/books are ALL over priced and under specked and if i wanted OSX then i would just run snow lepard on a far supeior mashine that costs half as much and is twice as good ....

In all fairness, while Apple products are generally very expensive, they are usually built with very tough and high quality components. Of course, things can fail on anything, but if you specced out a home made or pre-made non apple system to the same standard, you probably wouldn't see that much difference in price.

I have been a Mac fan for years. I currently have an XP machine indoors and a G4 running OS X. I far prefer OS X- once you set it up for yourself, it's far more useable than the PC and glitches less often than the PCs at work. Sadly, the Mac is so old (and therefore slow), that it's no longer useful as a music workstation- so I'm stuck with Windows for a while until I can afford a new mac...

But I can see why Apple products wind some people right up.

kwak zzr

31-01-10, 05:02 PM

The only problem i have with apple is itunes, its seems a pain in the @rse and very unstable other than that i'm more than pleased with the iphone.

Miss Alpinestarhero

31-01-10, 05:51 PM

Im not actually bothered either way...why do you have such a dislike of them? Just wondered out of curiosity!

Maria

sinbad

31-01-10, 06:28 PM

The only problem i have with apple is itunes, its seems a pain in the @rse and very unstable other than that i'm more than pleased with the iphone.

Me too, itunes is awful, there are alternatives though.

I think they make nice looking devices, I dislike touch screens, though, and the way they launched the iphone with a terrible camera just smacks of intentional holding back of features that people will want to upgrade for. They're overpriced too imo.

The iPad (not that funny a name, notebook - iBook, notepad - iPad. Helipad? Teehee) seems like a money spinner. Not my cup of tea.

Lozzo

31-01-10, 06:35 PM

Such as...?

Any local independent PC shop will build you a far superior machine for much less than the cost of any Mac. We have Power Computing here in Bedford who do some stupid cheap deals on new PCs and upgrades. When there is a shop like that handy there's no way I would even consider buying anything with an Apple logo on it.

I still can't abide the smugness associated with Apple products. It seems to me Apple could market the iTurd, which is just a dog poo rolled in glitter, and all those sad saps would be queuing up to buy it and proclaiming it to the the best turd in existence.

SoulKiss

31-01-10, 07:11 PM

It's not so much the flashy geeky products that have a limited number of applications and versatility, but more the smug "look at my new flashyApple product" the owners have.

Normal people like me and most of my friends say "I have to use the phone, be back in a sec", an Apple user will always say "I have to use my iphone, be back in a sec". They just simply have to tell you they have an Apple product. Like they won't just mention their laptop, they have to give you the exact model number and colour.

It's the general smug-**** attitude they have about their inferior choice that gets to me

Well as so many people were wondering what I had to say...

Lozzo sums it up quite well.

Initially (and I am talking around the time of the original iPod launch, I looked at the player, thought it was quite good, had some very nice features around managing music actually on the player.

I refused, however to get another player (had been bitten by both Creative and Sony) that I could not just plug into a USB port on a computer and put music on/off it using the file handling tools on that computer.

So the iPod is a non-starter for me.

Back to the iSmugness, it seemed that there was another design fault in those original iPods in that despte being quite small and compact, they only seemed to work if you held them in your hand.

I have a friend who is a HUGE Apple fan AND a HUGE geek, so I regularly see the cool things that you can do with Apple kit, especially when its interacting with other Apple kit - he can move his mouse pointer off the screen on his laptop - and it appears on the LCD TV he has on his wall - which is connected to a iMac Mini - so he is now in control of a completely different machine - which is really cool.

So I know, just as well as anyone else how good Apple stuff can be, but to me the cost is just too much.

Now I am not talking about cost as in cash, but in the restrictions on how I can use that expensive equipment.

iTunes is a major decider in that - I mean who would put up with a bit of software that without warning or asking for consent WILL delete all the music on a player if you plug it into another machine than the one it is used to?

People keep saying that you dont need to use iTunes, but most of the reasons for having an iPod (apart from the "oh shiney" factor) are negated, plus it usually involves a stupid circumvention, such as if you want to move music from your iPod to another player, having to burn the AAC files as a CD then re-rip them...

So basically as I see it, Apple bring out good kit, but each item is flawed in some way where Apple try and maintain control of it after you have spent your cash and own the product.

And then there is the over-riding iSmugness...

TimMcC

31-01-10, 07:57 PM

he can move his mouse pointer off the screen on his laptop - and it appears on the LCD TV he has on his wall - which is connected to a iMac Mini - so he is now in control of a completely different machine - which is really cool.

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in this sort of functionality then synergy is what you want:

http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/

Lets you do exactly what has been described, and works with any combination of Windows/Linux/OS X machines. Been using it for years between my Windows box and Linux box at work :)

Oh, it's free too.

Kalessin

31-01-10, 07:57 PM

The only problem i have with apple is itunes, its seems a pain in the @rse

+1. iTunes is a horrendously bloated, lumbering behemoth of an application, like Acrobat and Outlook (so much for Apple superiority).

Any local independent PC shop will build you a far superior machine for much less than the cost of any Mac.

You may be right about a superior spec for less cash, but I doubt the build quality on an unbranded machine with miscellaneous components is going to be close to what you get from Apple. I would imagine it would take up more space, be noisier and look rather uglier in my lounge, too.

For a comparison, I matched an iMac with an equivalent spec Dell machine, as listed on their respective websites. Whilst the Apple machine was a little more expensive, it was tens of pounds difference, not hundreds. When you're looking at over a grand's worth of machine, I don't mind paying a little extra for more pleasing aesthetics and superior build quality.

I refused, however to get another player [...] that I could not just plug into a USB port on a computer and put music on/off it using the file handling tools on that computer.

Until a couple of years ago, that was the only way you would copy any music that you purchased digitally. WMVs required Windows Media Player to sync to compatible players, even USB players like the Creative MuVo.

iTunes is a major decider in that - I mean who would put up with a bit of software that without warning or asking for consent WILL delete all the music on a player if you plug it into another machine than the one it is used to?

That's incorrect. iTunes will warn you that the iPod is synced with another machine, and give you an "Are you sure?"

if you want to move music from your iPod to another player, having to burn the AAC files as a CD then re-rip them...

Surely you'd move the files from the source computer, rather than directly from your iPod? Unless that's what you meant. In which case, this only applies to older, DRM protected music purchased digitally, and is not unique to Apple or iTunes DRM.

wyrdness

31-01-10, 08:06 PM

Any local independent PC shop will build you a far superior machine for much less than the cost of any Mac. We have Power Computing here in Bedford who do some stupid cheap deals on new PCs and upgrades. When there is a shop like that handy there's no way I would even consider buying anything with an Apple logo on it.

Sure you can buy a cheap no-name PC from a small shop. Keep it two years, then try to sell it. You probably won't be able to, as it will have depreciated to pretty much zero. I'll buy a Mac, keep it for two years and get back a significant percentage of the purchase price when I sell it on.

I've gone both routes. I used to buy parts and build my own PCs with Windows and/or Linux, now I buy Macs. Over two years, the total cost of ownership of the Mac is actually lower than even the cheapest PC.

fizzwheel

31-01-10, 08:07 PM

That's incorrect. iTunes will warn you that the iPod is synced with another machine, and give you an "Are you sure?"

Indeed, I dont think it always used to be this way though.

I love my Ipod, I also love my iphone, easy to setup simple to use. Now I am a geek and I like delving into the depths of things, but sometimes I want to plug a product in and have it work straight out of the box with no faffing about and I think its this side of things that apple have now got right. It wasnt always this way, my ipod mini was a PIA the first time I plugged it in and I had particular problems with one version of itunes and Liz's ipod nano, so much I took it back to the shop and got a refund as I got p*ssed off with it.. IIRC that was either itunes 6 or 7 and it was a complete abortion of a release... so just like Microsoft they dont always get it right first time.

It took a colleague ages to synch their Nokia phone up with our exchange email system. The MD at work who is a complete luddite, synch'd his iphone up himself with no help from the IT department at all...

As for the ipad, well I dont "get it" I dont get what it does that my laptop / iphone combo wont, its also IMHO bl**dy expensive for what it is which is IMHO a big iphone.

I remain to be convinced.

ThEGr33k

31-01-10, 10:01 PM

People are talking of Apple superior build quality? Link[/URL]... Build it yourself using asus parts, you'll soon see a gulf of cost difference and Quality. In 8 years i've never had an asus part brake or go wrong... infact I was running an Asus mobo at a 50% over clock for 2.5 years (e6600 cpu running at 3.6GHz) without fault.

As for looks of an item... I certainly go for function over beauty, though in the Case of my PC id say its pretty enough for what it is.

I think the main reason I dont like apple is the shops and adverts. The shop, I have been in a couple of times, for other people thankfully... but anyway, for me it seems to be trying too much, like its trying so hard I can see right through it... so cringe worthy. :(

Adverts likewise very cringe worthy :( [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpOvzGiheOM (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/11/apple-fourth-best-among-build-quality-study-for-portables.ars) for example... Sigh. I been using windows 7 and man it is good, and i've not had a problem at all. Looks like MS is almost there :)

Kalessin

31-01-10, 10:14 PM

based on 30,000 costumer experiences

Why are they so interested in the experiences of wardrobe technicians?

Wonder what other errors slipped past the proof reader... Maybe they meant 3,000. Or maybe they accidentally wrote fourth instead of first... ;)

SoulKiss

31-01-10, 10:59 PM

Until a couple of years ago, that was the only way you would copy any music that you purchased digitally. WMVs required Windows Media Player to sync to compatible players, even USB players like the Creative MuVo.

That's incorrect. iTunes will warn you that the iPod is synced with another machine, and give you an "Are you sure?"

Surely you'd move the files from the source computer, rather than directly from your iPod? Unless that's what you meant. In which case, this only applies to older, DRM protected music purchased digitally, and is not unique to Apple or iTunes DRM.

Theres the main point right there at the end.

Apple managed to convince you that its a good thing to buy something that they control how, when and where you can play it. You talk about DRM, whether its WMA (not WMV - thats Video, not Audio), or AAC its all a bad thing - look at the troubles that hit people when a couple of online music stores shut down (and big names at that)

I never said that DRM is unique to Apple, but its perfectly possible to avoid the PoS if you shop carefully.

As for the other points, when the iPod came out, there were USB only players available, and last but not least, if the warning about syncing/losing data is so good, how come I frequently hear about people losing their collections (which due to having fell for the hype, the only version the have is on the player.)

fizzwheel

31-01-10, 11:09 PM

if the warning about syncing/losing data is so good, how come I frequently hear about people losing their collections (which due to having fell for the hype, the only version the have is on the player.)

Because in my experience, alot of people dont bother to read let alone understand the text in the pretty boxes on screen and blindly click away without realising what they are doing...

Every time I have resynced my ipod its given me a warning with a confirmation. I've had a ipod for a few years. I suggest that the problem in this particular scenario is a PEBKAC one not a fault of itunes itself.

Kalessin

31-01-10, 11:46 PM

Apple managed to convince you that its a good thing to buy something that they control how, when and where you can play it.

Bear in mind that we're talking about a few years ago, when DRM in digital music purchases was the norm. Apple's FairPlay DRM was much less restrictive than WMA, therefore a good thing, for the time. All tracks purchased through the iTunes Music Store had exactly the same usage restrictions -- imposed by the music industry, not Apple -- including the ability to copy the track to up to four other computers that you owned. Conversely, each WMA track had individual restrictions imposed. Some would not even let you burn the track to CD! AFAIK there was no legitimate way to get DRM-free music, except by buying the CD and ripping it yourself (still considered piracy by the music industry).

Also, bear in mind that as soon as the ITMS became large and powerful enough, it forced the music industry to allow it to sell tracks DRM free. Other online retailers quickly followed suit.

You talk about DRM, whether its WMA (not WMV - thats Video, not Audio), or AAC its all a bad thing - look at the troubles that hit people when a couple of online music stores shut down (and big names at that)

(Yes, WMA, sorry. *facepalm*)

No argument there. DRM is fighting a war on entirely the wrong front. Like those annoying "You wouldn't steal a car" adverts that you're forced to sit through when you watch a DVD you've bought.

I never said that DRM is unique to Apple, but its perfectly possible to avoid the PoS if you shop carefully.

Not sure what you mean. Can you get legitimate downloads of TV shows or movies that aren't protected by DRM?

if the warning about syncing/losing data is so good, how come I frequently hear about people losing their collections (which due to having fell for the hype, the only version the have is on the player.)

Because there are always people who don't back up. Even if people don't back up their user data (and why wouldn't they?), iTunes has its own built-in backup function. It can even create incremental backups. I'm fairly sure it pops up with a message saying "Would you like to back up your purchases now?" as well, but I couldn't swear to that, as I'm the sort of person who clicks "Don't ask again".

wyrdness

01-02-10, 06:17 AM

Theres the main point right there at the end.

Apple managed to convince you that its a good thing to buy something that they control how, when and where you can play it. You talk about DRM, whether its WMA (not WMV - thats Video, not Audio), or AAC its all a bad thing - look at the troubles that hit people when a couple of online music stores shut down (and big names at that)

I never said that DRM is unique to Apple, but its perfectly possible to avoid the PoS if you shop carefully.

Funny how I only ever hear you moan about Apple DRM. Microsoft have actually behaved far worse than Apple with music DRM, but I haven't ever heard you slag them off. Remember 'Plays For Sure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure)', which was Microsofts music DRM? When Microsoft brought out the Zune, they gave it a different and incompatible form of DRM. So anyone who had already bought DRM music from Microsoft couldn't play it on their Microsoft mp3 player. Apple have never done anything that bad.

And besides, Apple dropped DRM from their music store last April and claimed that they never wanted DRM, but the record labels had forced them in to it.

lukemillar

01-02-10, 07:44 AM

Adverts likewise very cringe worthy :( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpOvzGiheOM for example... Sigh. I been using windows 7 and man it is good, and i've not had a problem at all. Looks like MS is almost there :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cX4t5-YpHQ

pot. kettle. black? :wink:

SoulKiss

01-02-10, 08:41 AM

Funny how I only ever hear you moan about Apple DRM. Microsoft have actually behaved far worse than Apple with music DRM, but I haven't ever heard you slag them off. Remember 'Plays For Sure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure)', which was Microsofts music DRM? When Microsoft brought out the Zune, they gave it a different and incompatible form of DRM. So anyone who had already bought DRM music from Microsoft couldn't play it on their Microsoft mp3 player. Apple have never done anything that bad.

And besides, Apple dropped DRM from their music store last April and claimed that they never wanted DRM, but the record labels had forced them in to it.

Well as I mentioned WMx and did mention that Apple are not the only guilty ones, but we were, after all, discussing Apple - dont get me started on MicroShaft...

Its due to the fact that DRM can be revoked for ANY reason with no recourse that I have never bought any DRM encumbered stuff - I even went as far as buying the NiN album that was web released to try and show the music industry that another model can work.

As for legal downloads of TV shows, ironically its because of the iPod/iPhone that I can legally grab BBC iPlayer stuff, which ironically, while spending the license payers money to lock down the website, due to restrictions on how the iPod could handle the streams, they allow un-encumbered DOWNLOADS to Apple products, which thanks to get_iplayer (google it) can now be downloaded to a PC etc.

ThEGr33k

01-02-10, 09:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cX4t5-YpHQ

pot. kettle. black? :wink:

Heh, that is cringe worthy true, but it isnt a TV ad and its not just saying "OSX is crap, because it is, because if you use windows your not cool"... which is basically what all Apple adverts try to say about windows. Windows adverts were pretty interesting as far as adverts go (no its not because I love MS or windows) "im a PC" was pretty subtle and not too in your face.

Here are the main arguments i've seen for buying an apple from apple and why imo they are just crap:

-They are cool and deal with lifestyle, like pictures and video
Maybe they are good at editing pictures, but then anyone who wants to really do that gets Photoshop, which works on Windows too.

-They dont get viruses
To be honest I aint had one in 8 years of using a PC, my virus checker that I have "just incase" usually tries it on with my files :rolleyes: N' OSX although not as targeted can get Viruses. This (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/02/apple_mac_av_advice/) is interesting as well.

-Windows gets bloated
Not if you dont install rubbish, im pretty sure you could bloat OSX in the same way if anyone wrote software for it...

-Windows comes with extra rubbish.
Thats because MS dont have control over what extra's get shipped with it, if they made OSX available to 3rd parties we would see, but then prices would drop and apple PC's wouldnt be so "hip and cool".

-Windows brakes all the time
This is usually down to 3rd party software not Windows its self. Thankfully Windows 7 seems to be able to kick these programs in the **** and sort it without BSOD or other issues...

I think those are the main points.

Ill be honest, I dont mind OSX or Apple products in general, its more this agressive "we are better than you" thing they have going, which when it comes down to it ultimatly is no better than Windows, maybe no worse either, just different...

Ipod convo going on, I was looking at getting a MP3 player and read a LOT of reviews, iPod only ever won the "nice looking" award, never ease of use, battery, sound quality, cost, or any other catagory in there... So I went for the cheaper bettery batteried and better sounding and dead easy to Use Sony walkman. (accroding to said reviews, though it is better in all those respects vs my brothers Ipod and my sisters touch) Brilliant tbh.

ThEGr33k

01-02-10, 10:02 AM

Why are they so interested in the experiences of wardrobe technicians?

Wonder what other errors slipped past the proof reader... Maybe they meant 3,000. Or maybe they accidentally wrote fourth instead of first... ;)

Maybe you havn't had an issue, but that writeup isnt rubbish... They arnt as well made as you seem to think. I know a few people with Apple product problems, and I only know a few people with apple products.

Out of interest, do you know what components are in your machine? monitor panel? Hmmm. If not who is to say they arnt cheaper ones? I cant imagine apple using top of the line components (motherboard, memory etc) when they have their market cornered, you cant get better or cheaper stuff from a 3rd party maker, cos Apple dont allow it. :rolleyes:

Kalessin

01-02-10, 10:25 AM

As for legal downloads of TV shows, ironically its because of the iPod/iPhone that I can legally grab BBC iPlayer stuff, which ironically, while spending the license payers money to lock down the website, due to restrictions on how the iPod could handle the streams, they allow un-encumbered DOWNLOADS to Apple products, which thanks to get_iplayer (google it) can now be downloaded to a PC etc.

BBC iPlayer is an utter p*ss-take. We lose the ability to watch programmes after 30 days so they can sell DVDs. How dare they? The BBC Trust should remember who paid for the creation of that content in the first place. And now we have to pay to keep it? It's a disgrace. get_iplayer seems like a good tool, but I prefer the less subtle FairUse4WM. That's why I have a machine that still runs WinXP.

Maybe you havn't had an issue

I have, actually, but in both cases it was resolved quickly and effectively, while I waited. Nothing had to be sent anywhere else for testing.