Traffic offence - Org's thoughts?

[Noble Ox]

I was driving home today, in the car.
On a roundabout with lights. 60 limit, I was doing say 40, approaching a set of lights. They changed as I went through them - I can honestly say it would of been a close one to stop in time (12 year old ford GAY-A, drum brakes)

Anyways, to my luck theres an undercover copper waiting at the lights at the junction to my left. He says his lights where amber when I went past him and therefore I 'must' have gone through a red.

Do you think I have anything to stand on if I went to court? I mean he has no hard evidence. Just his word against mine, and I feel really hard done by.

To make things worse I'm still within 2 years of passing, 1 more mistake and bye bye licence :( and summer + bike + only 3 points to play with = trouble!!

What you reckon, waste of time going to court with it? What happens cost wise? If I loose the case, how much out of pocket am I expected to be?

Cheers, Noble Ox

[Luckypants]

I had the exact same thing, copper was at other lights and reckoned I must have gone through on a red. It had turned to amber when I was a few meters away. My word against his, I took the fixed penalty as it was cheapest option. The magistrate will always believe a copper over joe public if no independent witness.

[phil24_7]

He didn't actually 'witness' an offence, only say his best guess is you committed an offence. Seek some legal advice but I think he hasn't a leg to stand on and is taking the pi$$. If the speed limit is 60, then the lights should take a little longer to go from one direction stopping to the next starting, for this very reason.

I'll say again, go see a reputable bike/traffic solicitor for a free consultation, possibly White Dalton.

Regards
Phil

[-Ralph-]

Get a decent solicitor. It is for them to prove that you committed and offence if you deny it, not the other way round. Unless they have some hard evidence, the testimony of one copper shouldn't be enough IMO, but then I'm not a legal beagle. An amber light means "stop if safe to do so" and this is entirely a matter of opinion.

[Mr Speirs]

By the policeman's own admission there is no proof of an offence, all his own testimony proves is that when you passed the lights his were at yellow. He cannot prove that yours were at red. All about burden of proof and most choose to take the fine. Don't think jumping a red light is points. Might bf wrong though.

[Red Herring]

The copper will need to show that part of your vehicle went over the stop line after your traffic light had turned red, or amber and that you could have stopped safely. The later will be extremely hard for him to prove and is unlikely to be run by CPS, it's the former that would normally get you. It's important to know that he should be able to testify as to the colour of your traffic light, and be able to do so directly. He shouldn't be allowed to get away with "well my light was amber therefore his must have been red", although we have been able to use this kind of evidence if we then go on to say that we have checked the traffic lights through several sequences and this particular lights only goes amber this time after such and such a light has gone red (but we're talking a significant time period here, not a question of a second or two). He will also need to be able to say where your vehicle was when the light went to amber/red. Most of the time you don't notice this unless you are specifically looking for it, ie normally you are sitting at your light, it goes green and then you notice a vehicle still crossing ahead of you....

Now the reality. If you didn't argue much with him at the roadside it's very unlikely he will have recorded the evidence correctly. An ATS (Automatic Traffic Signal) offence is relatively small fry to most coppers and they tend to get really sloppy around them. The ticket he gave you is a £60 fine and three points, it's an easy out if you did do it. If you didn't and go to court the evidence of one officer is enough to convict provided they are credible and did it properly. If they convict you expect the three points and a substantially bigger fine, plus the usual costs. Before you decide go back to the junction and sit where he was and look at the lights. Watch a few sequences, ask yourself if you were the copper could you put a reasonable case across from where you are? Take some photos, especially showing what kind of a view the copper would have had of your traffic lights.

It's easy for us to sit here and say fight it, we're not the ones taking the day off work to go to court and risking our money, but if the copper is wrong you owe it to everybody to fight him. This is all sounding horribly familiar......

[G]

Interesting one this. He can not say in court that you DID go through a red light. There's plenty of resonable doubt there.

A good motoring defence legal eagle could probably rip his statement apart. If I could afford it I would chance it.

[-Ralph-]

and is unlikely to be run by CPS

Don't know where the incident happened, but the OP is in Solihull RH.

I was in court yesterday for DWDC as the result of an emergency stop where no collision occurred. All of the police on here and indeed my legal counsel, said the police would have been unlikely to event investigate this in other parts of the country, and where it was investigated, would never be progressed by the CPS.

My solicitor told me right from the moment we had sight of a court summons, that because I was in Solihull, I would end up getting my suit on and going to court. He thought however the CPS would decide not to run the case in court. Nobody with any decision making authority had looked at it up to that point, so a case with no evidence, put together by a copper with 1 year experience got as far as the court house

The CPS prosecutor (prosecution lawyer) did decide not to run it, and when he went to speak to the prosecution witnesses and the police officer in charge, he bowed to pressure and changed his mind. My barrister's opinion is that it's easier for him to run it and let the magistrate decide than face a complaint from the witnesses that it was not prosecuted.

My barrister told me as soon as I walked in the door that we did have a battle on our hands in the magistrates court, as magistrates are volunteers. They are basically members of the public (or society do-good'ers who think themselves important call it what you will). They are not professionals and have a legal counsel by their side to advise on the law and what decisions they should be making. My mother was once asked to be a magistrate in Solihull. Solhullians as a rule are very police friendly, so the courts have a tenancy to favour a police officers version of events.

Now don't let that make you think you've lost from the word go, you haven't. I got found not guilty yesterday, but I think the court actually wanted to convict me. They had sympathy for the lollipop man that walked out in front of me, and wanted to believe that he was good at his job, but the evidence simply wasn't there for the court to convict me.

It doesn't sound like the evidence is there in this case, so personally based on what you've written, I would fight it.

[Noble Ox]

I was in Coleshill at the time. I don't think it was the Solihull cop shop - as he said I had to go to Nuneaton if I went to court?

Damn, in the car I asked him: But you didn't actually see me run the light?
To which he replied again: My light was on amber so yours was on red.
I replied: Well you didnt see commit an offence. My light was deffinatly amber. How can you prove me wrong?
Officer: I am going to check them now, and prove that whenever my lights are on amber, yours are always on red.
Me: Well take me with you and prove that to me.
Officer: No, I am not insured to take you unless you are under arrest. By all means do it in your own time.
Me (as a light hearted comment, not said in an arrogant way): Then arrest me!!!

He did a U-ee after he'd finished with me. So im guessing he did as he said. Should of kept quiet, and he might have forgotten...

Does it help that it was just one copper in the car? So effectively its his word agaisnt mine?

How much would it cost if ,worse case, I lost the case?

[-Ralph-]

I was in Coleshill at the time. I don't think it was the Solihull cop shop - as he said I had to go to Nuneaton if I went to court?

Damn, in the car I asked him: But you didn't actually see me run the light?
To which he replied again: My light was on amber so yours was on red.
I replied: Well you didnt see commit an offence. My light was deffinatly amber. How can you prove me wrong?
Officer: I am going to check them now, and prove that whenever my lights are on amber, yours are always on red.
Me: Well take me with you and prove that to me.
Officer: No, I am not insured to take you unless you are under arrest. By all means do it in your own time.
Me (as a light hearted comment, not said in an arrogant way): Then arrest me!!!

He did a U-ee after he'd finished with me. So im guessing he did as he said. Should of kept quiet, and he might have forgotten...

Does it help that it was just one copper in the car? So effectively its his word agaisnt mine?

How much would it cost if ,worse case, I lost the case?

Maybe on a sticky wicket if he can prove the light sequence, and it depends if the court accepts that to be the case. I don't know enough about the law in terms of what the police have to prove as to whether that will be sufficient to convict, but sure RH or somebody will be along shortly.

[fastdruid]

Maybe on a sticky wicket if he can prove the light sequence, and it depends if the court accepts that to be the case. I don't know enough about the law in terms of what the police have to prove as to whether that will be sufficient to convict, but sure RH or somebody will be along shortly.

Beyond reasonable doubt. As others have said you need to know what the sequence is before you decide what way you're going to go.

Druid

[Noble Ox]

RH, the guy seemed pretty competant. But he followed me for ages, at least 5 minutes before he pulled me. I got the sense that he thought I was speeding, from speaking to him, and the fact he followed me for ages - Although there wasn’t anywhere convenient to stop.

I would just take it on the chin, but like I said, I now cannot commit a traffic offence, or in this case run through an amber again - which isn't even illegal! As I'll be banned.

[Shellywoozle]

You have PM coming !

[Dave20046]

Before I start it's probably worth pointing out as you drive a KA you probably deserve it.
anyway, as said above he couldn't see the traffic light so it should be impossible for him to say - if it was me I'd be tempted to risk it in court, after doing as red herring says and going back and seeing what the copper could see.

I got pulled for the same thing once, copper was at oncoming waiting to turn right, I went through (just saw it turn amber as my front bumper was hitting the line) went through at 40mph (the speedlimit). Checked my mirrors and I saw the right turner in front of the cop continue to turn right (surely if it was red he should have been chasing this guy?!) anyway blues came on and he pulled me. Told me I went through a red (I ofcourse corrected him) and he told me I was booting it (in honesty it was a little too fast but it was within the speed limit so I didn't draw attention to it). Anyway I just denied it extremely politely at the road side, I think it was just a case of 'young guy in a car let's pull him' as he had a brief look over my car noted it was all standard and I was polite.

[Noble Ox]

Ha! Dave - I'll be the first to take the Michael. Hence I call it the GAY-A.

It's my Dad's car and Dad's insurance. I also drive a brand new Golf, aswell as the SV(my bike, my insurance)

Would saying I don't usually drive it, am used to a brand new car and Mbike, with decent brakes, be an arguement to help my case in the fact that I didnt feel it safe to stop? I know it would be stupid to suggest my car's brakes arent the best!

[Noble Ox]

The police man had this teach you a lesson attitude, which I found offensive. Just because I'm young. All I care about is cars, bikes and driving. The fact that I clocked him straight away, suggest I'm not clueless, like most KA drivers..... (Tempted for some sexist banter - but should keep this thread serious!!!)

[Stig]

I'd just take the hit and think twice in the future about my approach to traffic lights. I'm sure the method of approach is something like always expect the lights to change and always be prepared to stop. The fact you stated yourself you don't think you would have been able to stop in time sort of suggests you were approaching too fast anyway.

[Dave20046]

Was only banter mr ox :razz: I wouldn't mention that you deemed it unsafe to stop because you were used to other vehicles though as it sounds like you weren't completely in control. I'd just stick by saying , it wasn't safe to stop full stop (if that's what you believe) and that you didn't go through a red.
I'd just take the hit and think twice in the future about my approach to traffic lights. I'm sure the method of approach is something like always expect the lights to change and always be prepared to stop. The fact you stated yourself you don't think you would have been able to stop in time sort of suggests you were approaching too fast anyway.
"expect the lights to change but hope not to" was what I was taught, but same difference.
Doesn't necesarily mean he was going too fast even if you're prepared to stop and the lights turn amber as you're practically on the line (for example) it may be impossible to stop. If you can't stop, you can't stop. There's a difference between being prepared for them to change and waiting for them to change.

[Noble Ox]

Dave just read my reply back! Sounds like im trying abit of 'well mines bigger than yours'. Didnt mean it like that!!! I'm all for the banter.

[punyXpress]

" Officer: I am going to check them now, and prove that whenever my lights are on amber, yours are always on red.

He did a U-ee after he'd finished with me. So im guessing he did as he said. "

Even if he did go back & look at the lights, how on earth could he ( alone in the car ) do this?

[Noble Ox]

Spot on puny!!

[embee]

Slight aside, but in Austria the green light flashes a couple of times before the amber comes on, then red. This is a brilliant feature as it takes virtually all the "will it won't it" gamble out of approaching traffic lights.

You know that while the green is solid it's not about to change, if you see the green flash you can very easily stop on the amber, if you don't see the green flash you know you'll be through the lights well before the red.

It works. We'd never introduce anything as sensible as that here though, just like not having "turn on red" as they do in other countries, or change lights to fixed flashing amber at night (proceed if safe) etc.

Forget this nonsense about innocent until proven guilty and reasonable doubt and so on, this is the UK, if they want to do you they will, one officer says you're guilty then you are (unless you work for BAE and sell weapons to Saudi Arabia or ATC systems to African states).

Just getting my cynic hat on ready for the election. :smt028

[Stu]

noble Ox, did you see the lights change from green to amber? how far away from the stop line were you?
Did you see the lights change from amber to red? how far in front/after the stop line were you?

[-Ralph-]

Slight aside, but in Austria the green light flashes a couple of times before the amber comes on, then red. This is a brilliant feature as it takes virtually all the "will it won't it" gamble out of approaching traffic lights.

You know that while the green is solid it's not about to change, if you see the green flash you can very easily stop on the amber, if you don't see the green flash you know you'll be through the lights well before the red.

It works. We'd never introduce anything as sensible as that here though, just like not having "turn on red" as they do in other countries, or change lights to fixed flashing amber at night (proceed if safe) etc.

Forget this nonsense about innocent until proven guilty and reasonable doubt and so on, this is the UK, if they want to do you they will, one officer says you're guilty then you are (unless you work for BAE and sell weapons to Saudi Arabia or ATC systems to African states).

Just getting my cynic hat on ready for the election. :smt028

We are better than the Italians, they have different shades of red, 'nah forget that red', 'kinda still OK to go through red', 'near miss red', and 'suicide red'.

[Messie]

I can confirm you can get points for jumping a red light. I didn't realise I'd done it, but the camera got me. Went through at 16 miles per hour apparently, 1 second after it changed.
It certainly made me think and actually feel a bit ashamed of my driving - I thought I was better than that. 3 points, £60 fixed penalty and I think about it everytime I come up to nearly changing lights. Not worth it, is my opinion now. Just another 30 seconds on a journey

[cbay]

I would say that he didn't actually see you go through the RED or RED/AMBER therefore he didn't see an offense. Unless he has you on camera going over the white line and you can see his light is GREEN and you can see another light showing RED indicating stopping to you then I personally don't think there is a case.

The policeman is just presuming that your light was RED, how does he know that the light was faulty and you had an Amber and he had an Amber also???

Definitely seek legal advice, I think you have a case! Especially as your in your first two years. Dodgy period.

[ArtyLady]

Are you within 2 years for both car and bike licence? AFAIK if you've had one or other longer then you'll be off the 6 points rule by now.

[Red Herring]

They just need to convince the court that part of your vehicle went over the stop line after the light had gone red, or amber and you could have stopped safely. Yes, one officers word is enough.

[Stu]

They just need to convince the court that part of your vehicle went over the stop line after the light had gone red, or amber and you could have stopped safely. Yes, one officers word is enough.
:smt017
I thought it was the front of your vehicle.
So how does an Artic get through traffic lights? the cab could be through on the Green with the trailer taking all of the amber & some red.

[-Ralph-]

They just need to convince the court that part of your vehicle went over the stop line after the light had gone red, or amber and you could have stopped safely. Yes, one officers word is enough.

:smt017
I thought it was the front of your vehicle.
So how does an Artic get through traffic lights? the cab could be through on the Green with the trailer taking all of the amber & some red.

The answers are there already. The cab and trailer are counted as the same vehicle, so long as it didn't go through after the light and gone red, it is considered to all have been through on the green (or of course the amber).

Need to be really black and white with the wording on these things.

[Red Herring]

:smt017
I thought it was the front of your vehicle.
So how does an Artic get through traffic lights? the cab could be through on the Green with the trailer taking all of the amber & some red.

Actually technically the artic driver would commit an offence if the trailer was straddling the stop line and moving when the light went red. In reality common sense prevails and the general rule applied in my experience is if the driver sees a red light (provided the light is next to the stop line and not across the junction) then they have jumped them, if it changes behind him he hasn't.

Oh, and I did a bit of asking around at work today on the general view around doing someone based on the colour of your light, ie: if the coppers is green yours must be red. Apparently there has been some case law around that and if the copper can show that their light was green (maybe on the car video) there is a presumption that your light was red, and it will be for you to show that it wasn't. That goes against the advice I gave earlier and I'm not entirely convinced by it, but you ought to be aware there is some alternative opinion around...

[yorkie_chris]

But there's nothing to say one set of lights could be saying "prepare to go" before the other says "stop"?

[Red Herring]

It would be pretty unusual to find a set that go red/amber (ie: prepare to go) before their opposing set change to amber, which means stop..... There are plenty though that change to red/amber when the opposite one goes red.