View Full Version : Sack him, or keep him?
One of my Field Service Engineers has received a NIP for speeding, 80 in a 70.
Problem is just over a year ago he had accumulated 9pts for various speeding offences when he was caught again for speeding. We wrote to the court explaining his job role required him to drive. His Solicitor argued the potential excessive hardship if he lost his job, and the Court decided on 1pt added to his licence and a huge fine.
Got call yesterday, "been caught speeding." And I guess it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a ban and a huge huge fine.
I could keep him on and get other engineers to pick him up and drop him off at jobs until he serves out his ban. Its an expensive option but employing and training up another engineer costs approx £130,000. He is also one of the best guys I've got, and a replacement may turn out to be a numpty.
Sack him, or keep him?
Kilted Ginger
09-03-10, 07:00 AM
If he needs to drive for his work he will just have to arrange his own transport at his own expense, whether its walking cycling or taxis. I knew someone who put his neighbours 18 yo kid on his policy, paid him £100 a week for the 3 months of the ban and allowed him to use the car when he wasn't driving him.
Specialone
09-03-10, 07:27 AM
80 mph in a 70mph, bit over the top.
I pass coppers at that speed loads of times on motorways.
But he is obviously a serial speeder who doesnt pay attention to speed black spots, sack him, you're responsible for your own actions and therefore your own transport to jobs.
In that role, you know the license is vital, should have been more careful IMO.
tigersaw
09-03-10, 07:29 AM
Keep him if he's a good un. So far its only a NIP.
Old Git
09-03-10, 07:49 AM
Seem to have answered your own question to me.........
He is your best engineer
would cost you way more to train a new one
and 80 in a 70?????
OK I know the rules, but we have all done it havn't we????
Only difference is he has got caught.
Should he have already learnt his leason, yes... will he now.....maybe.
If he is having the law of this great country giving it to him in the testicle officially, why would you want to kick him when he is down as well.?
As one poster said, make a point if you want to & tell him travel at his own expense, etc.etc.
My 2p worth.
Yeah, I know your thinking hes an idiot and yeah anyone else on 9 points would be driving like they were a newbie drive (careful and slow) but he got caught and nothing you can do about it now, but if he is a hard worker and does the job right and you can count on him to pull through for you on a job that you send him to, then he is a keeper. At the end of the day its only transport and he will just have to wait around for lifts or sort out his own transport to and from jobs. :-)
You can't throw away someone who could go to a competitor company if hes that good.
Keep him.
Lower his wages to take into account that you have to finance his transport.
If he doesn't like it and kicks up a stink explain to him that he is more than welcome to seek other employment.
Mind you, would other employment be easy to find without a licence?
If you ask me he deserves to lose his job if he is ignoring the good nature of the authorities and yourself by holding back a ban previously.
If you keep him then he should appreciate how lucky he is.
Are you able to change the conditions of his employment to reflect his situation?
Bluepete
09-03-10, 08:07 AM
If you can afford to keep him then do so. He's an asset in his knowledge but a plonker in his van.
I can nearly guarantee a ban on conviction, especially after pleading his last case.
Pete ;)
There is lots of very skilled, yet jobless engineers in the Market at the moment to choose from.
There is only so many chances you can give someone.
I'd keep but I would see if I could recover the cost of transport... a ban's inevitable, depends how long it's for I spose, incidentally if you don't have a contract clause allowing you to deduct thenn you need his consent.
80 mph in a 70mph, bit over the top.
..
Surely if the NIP says 80, in reality his speedo was reading more than this?
I would wait and see what happens with the NIP. See if the court is leanient. I guess you have to work out the cost of sorting his transport (whether it be buses, taxis, someone picking him up etc) VS the amount to train up another engineer.
What industry is this in if you don't mind me asking?
Ultimately the decision is yours. However there is only so many chances you can give someone and he seems to have used them all up.
My brother was caught speeding and given a 30 day ban. His employer fired him no questions asked. He knew the job required a licence and they weren't going to wait even a month. Harsh but thats the reality nowadays.
just make him pay for transport or deduct it from his wages. thats what i would do.
Depending how long his ban is, if he does get a ban, and you want to keep him:
- dock his pay to cover the cost of transport needed for him (need his consent)
- Ask him to use his holiday to cover part of the ban
- Give him a job in the office (don't know if this is possible)
- tell him it is his own fault, and he will need to cover the cost of getting between jobs himself.
slark01
09-03-10, 09:26 AM
If you happen to have a trainee that can drive a van or someone that doesn't do much in the office, then the problem is solved.
Ste.
maviczap
09-03-10, 09:28 AM
Keep him
But make him pay for a driving course that teaches him not to speed, something like AIM and of course pay for for the cost of his transport for the duration of the ban
By the sounds of it, he thinks that you're going to back him up again when it comes to court.
Laugh and point at him...lots! What a fool. However, i have been there i had 11 points on my licence at one point and i drove like i was driving Miss daisy for a couple of years!!
Sadly its a fact that everyone speeds, he just seems unlucky that its him. If he has a company van, get it goverened to 56mph for his own good!
What would i do? Give him a desk based job for the length of the ban and he can be on call for the other, lesser, engineers. After a period in the office, he may think agin about speeding :) Get him to make the Coffee and tea as well as punishment.
Id keep him as financailly you'd be better off.
I feel that some company sanction is in order. If the ban is short (e.g. a month) then suspend him until he can drive again.
If longer ban than tough choice to be made. Your call.
My heart says keep him but I would definately push for a disciplinary ( the hardest possible) He's not learned from the last time and what harm does this do to firms reputation etc etc etc Yiou need to think outside of the box and not just look at employees. This may make him learn the hard way.
however you could find yourself in dodgy territory if the the job role states that a licence is an essential part of holding that job - normally means that he is are no longer to competent to complete the job required and that he is contracted to do. The other guys could kick up a stink
You are not legally bound to find him transport thats his problem and thats what my first recation would be. If he's commited he'll will make an effort but be willing to help if comes to you saying its a problem (you will need to say this to him as they won't do it otherwise and could escalate into more discplinary)
What and see what the penalty is.You need to sit down with him and discuss it the whole implications.
I do believe however you have answered your own question
Drew Carey
09-03-10, 09:51 AM
I would give him the choice. Can you not say to him;
1. Keep your job, cover the cost of your own transport during the ban, last chance, once more and your out.
2. If you don't wish to do the above, then by all means....there's the door.
If the driving is a required part of his job he needs to learn the result of his actions (whether the amount he was over is small or not is irrelevant....he was speeding).
Personally I'd keep him. He's been stupid and is paying the price for it with a ban and a fine. I would however put him on a "probation" period, i.e. if your ability to meet the requirements of your committments are affected in any way (repeatedly late to jobs because of collecting him, for example) then he has to go.
i dont know what i would do, on one hand the guy could potentially loose his job and whats the chances of him getting another job in this field without a license. but at the same time he's not learnt his lesson has he? to keep getting points on your license, you'd think he'd eventually learn his lesson, especially after already being in court and being very fortunate to keep his license.
but from a purely financial view point for the company it would be a big expense to replace him. but whats to say he's going to learn his lesson this time? once he has the license back will he respect it any more? will it only be a few months till your back in the same position.
Quiff Wichard
09-03-10, 10:10 AM
hhmmm
difficult one
you can get round it by all of the above and keep him
but..
you would be setting a precedent..
rod for your own back?
seen as soft?
would sacking him not get you respected more and harden up the others and send out a warning.. or maybe keeping him would portray you as compaqssionate in these hard times and an even better boss..
me not know.
maviczap
09-03-10, 10:40 AM
Sometimes its hard being the gaffer. Quiff has a point
jimmy4237
09-03-10, 10:43 AM
If he's good, then keep him.
But you can get his van speed restricted nowadays. Most company vans are now speed restricted to 70mph. Some I've even seen down to 62mph. Only costs £40 at any dealer to access the ECU (depending on year of van...). Anything after 2005 can be speed restricted via the ECU..
You also get insurance discounts for having your company vans speed limited (although the drivers don't like them - but that's tough luck...)
Surely if the NIP says 80, in reality his speedo was reading more than this?
Quite likely but not always the case. I have had the Satnav running in our Zafira and the speedo reads almost exactly the same as the Satnav where as speedo in my Pug lies lots.
Dave20046
09-03-10, 10:53 AM
One of my Field Service Engineers has received a NIP for speeding, 80 in a 70.
Problem is just over a year ago he had accumulated 9pts for various speeding offences when he was caught again for speeding. We wrote to the court explaining his job role required him to drive. His Solicitor argued the potential excessive hardship if he lost his job, and the Court decided on 1pt added to his licence and a huge fine.
Got call yesterday, "been caught speeding." And I guess it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a ban and a huge huge fine.
I could keep him on and get other engineers to pick him up and drop him off at jobs until he serves out his ban. Its an expensive option but employing and training up another engineer costs approx £130,000. He is also one of the best guys I've got, and a replacement may turn out to be a numpty.
Sack him, or keep him?
Entirely up to you; will he learn from it? Will he appreciate it? But more importantly (and linked) is he a good employee, will keeping him benefit your team in the long term?
One of our field engineers lost his license through drink (yep so a 12month ban...he claims he had one pint of carlsberg2% or whatever it is but may have been served normal carslberg in error...neither here nor there I guess) in the end we decided to keep him as he was one of our best engineers and just had him ferried about. He was worth it as he was good...but unfortunately he left a year later:rolleyes:
keith_d
09-03-10, 10:58 AM
Personally, I think he's an idiot for speeding when he had 9 points on his license. Doing it twice is just plain stupid and pretty much guarantees a ban as well as a disciplinary hearing at work. I think you should make it clear that even if he only gets a 14 day ban, any further speeding will result in dismissal.
If he gets banned for 28 days you might make him responsible for his own transport during the ban.
If he gets 3 months you could consider allowing your most junior engineer to drive him around, providing he trains that engineer and explains everything he's doing. That way you at least get some value from the arrangement.
Of course, even if you give him a restricted van, he can still clock up points on his license with a private vehicle. So there's no guarantee that he'll toe the line after any ban.
Tricky question.
Also how much does it now cost to insure him on company vehicles... There's a much bigger picture to consider.
If it was my company I would consider him extremely high risk.
However, I could go out tomorrow and get clocked well over 100+ on my bike and be in the exact same situation as him in as much as facing a ban.
The difference is he has clocked them up, been given a chance by receiving only 1 point previously. Then clocked them up again.
Also how much does it now cost to insure him on company vehicles... There's a much bigger picture to consider.
If it's fleet insurance rather than individuals, then I do believe individual licence endorsements are not taken into account.
If it's fleet insurance rather than individuals, then I do believe individual licence endorsements are not taken into account.
I know on our fleet policy 6 points accumulated and it has to be reported, dependant on the offences will depend on whether the fleet policy will cover you, anything over 6 and your not covered by the fleet policy regardless. Individual policy then has to be sought.
Paul the 6th
09-03-10, 11:51 AM
80 mph in a 70mph, bit over the top.
I pass coppers at that speed loads of times on motorways.
But he is obviously a serial speeder who doesnt pay attention to speed black spots, sack him, you're responsible for your own actions and therefore your own transport to jobs.
In that role, you know the license is vital, should have been more careful IMO.
I was clocked at 89.6 on the m1 on sunday and managed to walk away with no points but a £60 fine for no MOT (turns out it didn't come with a year's mot from the dealer after all, it expired in august and I've had the bike coming upto 12 months just now!)
but suppose by the time you get to 9 points you should really be thinking what would happen if you lost it!
Still, 130 grand to hire and train is definitely gonna be more than the cost of baby sitting this guy while he serves his ban (if he's as good as you say he is)
I know on our fleet policy 6 points accumulated and it has to be reported, dependant on the offences will depend on whether the fleet policy will cover you, anything over 6 and your not covered by the fleet policy regardless. Individual policy then has to be sought.
Oh things have changed. Good job I don't drive a fleet vehicle at the moment. :)
ridelikeaturtle
09-03-10, 12:07 PM
(apologies if this has been mentioned already in the previous 4 pages...)
How much does it cost to hire a numpty? Probably on the order of 3 or 4 times what it costs to have a good employee - re-fixing mistakes, re-training, then the hassle of trying to either keep them off important projects or shifting them to some other group in the company (and out of your group).
A great engineer, on the other hand, is worth 3 or 4 "average" ones.
It's a simple choice: keep!!!!!!
Oh things have changed. Good job I don't drive a fleet vehicle at the moment. :)
Maybe not changed, probably just different types of policy.
Owenski
09-03-10, 12:26 PM
You gotta ask yourself if he were **** at his job would you fire him? if the only reason your thinking of keeping him is because he's good at his job then its not really a question about the points its about company policy.
Dicky Ticker
09-03-10, 12:47 PM
Even if he has a short term ban it still leaves the situation of him having all these points on his license till some are removed------how long is that?
Considering his previous approach to speeding and the fact that he is aware that he needs his license for his employment I would take the long term outlook and give very careful consideration to continuing his employment.
As matter of interest is it a company vehicle or his own? I am thinking along the lines of insurance because we would not be allowed to employ a driver to drive one of our vehicles with such a driving record.
Jayneflakes
09-03-10, 01:00 PM
I very nearly voted Keith D, but even I am not that mad! :smt081
As others have said, you need to have an official chat with said person, lay down company policy and if you are going to keep them, they must be made aware of consequences, written warning most likely.
It is hard to just sack some one as I understand it, there must be continuous poor work or gross misconduct, you may have a case of misconduct here, so definitely have the chat.
Hope that it works out OK for all concerned, right now, if I thought I could save a good job I would be prepared to do what I could, but then I am about to lose my job and I did nothing wrong. It is a tough market out there at the moment.
dizzyblonde
09-03-10, 01:08 PM
Good engineers are hard to come by.
Plenty of newly qualifieds out there needing jobs, who may or may not be up to scratch. I know one who hasn't been given the right opportunity yet, which is shameful. But then new guys cost money to train, and could take time to work upto the standard of your number one bloke. Hmmmm hard one.......
If his job was worth anything to him, he'd have taken himself to one side already, clearly its not. Providing him with alternative transport is only prolonging things until he can start doing it all over again. He hasn't changed or learnt anything previously so why will he in the future.
TBH it'll either cost £130,000 to train someone now...or later, when you are back to square one.
Besides you may get a good bloke who will travel to work by donkey to prove his weight in gold, and ultimately take his place.
ceeshaw
09-03-10, 01:09 PM
Short term -- keep him, somehow. At least with a 12 month disciplinary warning on file so he can't bu99er off to the competition for a while.
Longer term -- start looking for his replacement. He's proven himself incapable of change. If you know he's one of your best engineers, then he knows it too. He probably thinks he's doing you a favour just turning up to work. I'd unofficially start assigning him less important roles whenever possible and have him mentor a younger engineer who shows potential.
Then when he get's ANOTHER fine eventually - and by the sounds of things he will - you'll be in a position to sack him on your terms, i.e. with a replacement already trained up, and with a clear conscience having already given him a second chance.
Iansv II
09-03-10, 02:11 PM
Explain the situation to him, then pull out a 50p piece and let him pick Head or Tails ;)
Biker Biggles
09-03-10, 02:17 PM
Im glad to see the poll result is more reflective of sanity than some of the thread comments.:rolleyes:
A good worker even one with a few flaws is worth looking after,and the benefits will be wider than at first obvious.General staff morale goes up when they see they are working for a good guvnor who will see them right through thick and thin.
Dicky Ticker
09-03-10, 02:49 PM
I'll do a deal-----------supply one van and one driver for 3 years on contract for less than the £130,000
Maybe you think I am harsh but surely as a field engineer he would be expected to have a driving license as part of his responsibility to his job,a bit like a mobile mechanic who can't drive.
Well Oiled
09-03-10, 02:52 PM
couple of comments:
1) Wait and see what the courts say and make the decision then.
2) Don't take it the wrong way, and I can see you're agonising over making a fair decision, but is it wise to debate his future on a public forum like this? If you do decide to fire him and he uncovers this thread - could there be implications re. dismissal rights / compensation? If you don't fire him and he finds this thread he could be mighty p**sed off with you for debating his problems here. I would be if I were in his shoes. I know they're now your problems as well but if I were him I'd want it kept between you and me.
Cheers Keith
couple of comments:
1) Wait and see what the courts say and make the decision then.
2) Don't take it the wrong way, and I can see you're agonising over making a fair decision, but is it wise to debate his future on a public forum like this? If you do decide to fire him and he uncovers this thread - could there be implications re. dismissal rights / compensation? If you don't fire him and he finds this thread he could be mighty p**sed off with you for debating his problems here. I would be if I were in his shoes. I know they're now your problems as well but if I were him I'd want it kept between you and me.
Cheers Keith
Maybe that's why he's not debating. He hasn't posted since the OP 8)
Well Oiled
09-03-10, 04:10 PM
Maybe that's why he's not debating. He hasn't posted since the OP 8)
Or maybe he's just out doing his job at the moment?
Or maybe he's just out doing his job at the moment?
Bit of both, and also very interested in what everyone has to say without wishing to drive the debate in a particular direction.
The decision was actually taken yesterday. I argued for his retention, and won the day but not without some fun along the way.
Assuming he is convicted, my boss wanted to keep him on without 'kicking him whilst he's down,' and no further action. HR wanted an unpaid leave of absence, a final written warning, two pints of blood and his first born. They started by saying sack.
I got it down to two weeks of this year's leave allowance. A verbal warning and we pay for a speed awareness course. My argument was based on a Duty of Care to the engineer concerned, i.e. he's a really bright guy but addicted to speed. And a responsibility to other road users to try an cure the daft sod. There is also a responsibilty I have to my employer, which means a bit of my credibility and judgement is now in the mix. I'm also aware that with three kids and a hefty mortgage this could ruin him.
As to anonimity, and debated on a public forum, how will he find out? None of my Team do bikes, he's not named, and nor is the company.
Biker Biggles
09-03-10, 04:57 PM
You should come and work where I am.They could learn a thing or two about how to run a firm.
Actually no you shouldnt,you would hate it and they couldnt learn anything from you as they would need some brain cells and they dont have any.
speedplay
09-03-10, 05:02 PM
Does he drive a sign written van?
If he does, it's never good to have a company name advertised whilst driving offences are being commited.
fizzwheel
09-03-10, 05:19 PM
he's a really bright guy but addicted to speed. And a responsibility to other road users to try an cure the daft sod.
Fit a speed restrictor to his van, plenty of companies do it now.
jimmy4237
09-03-10, 06:35 PM
Also do him a deal. Seeing as its you who brokered the deal to keep him, make him sign a new contract.
In the new contract, have clauses stating "any further traffic violations", including speeding, reckless, etc... you rack up under the new contract, after you've done the speed awareness course, and your van has to be restricted (for insurance reasons..). Get caught speeding again, and you're out the door... no exemptions
That's only fair, as you put your credibility on the line, and you don't want to be made a ***** of by his driving standards.
Parking tickets is a minor deal.. I get them all the time in the truck - can't avoid them in town with an artic...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I haven't read all the posts, there are so many!
Im an Electrician and rely on my driving license for work. You shouldnt have bailed him out the first time round. He was the idiot, let him deal with it. Dont get involved this time. Dont sack him if he is as good as you say. You'd only sack him as an excuse to sack him (if he was **** at his job and this was the first opportunity to get rid).
Take the van or whatever he has from him. I'd call him in for 'a chat' and explain that you wont be getting involved this time, tell him you helped him out last time as a friend, which he has now thrown in your face (make him feel guilty for what he has done).
Most importantly, tell him he wont be losing his job over this but he will obviously have to find his own transport to work at his own expense. He may decide to look for a job closer to home for the length of the ban and if he does then so be it.
Also tell him that being late to work from now on because of this is unacceptable and if caught late? dock his wages! He will learn his lesson this time.
gruntygiggles
10-03-10, 12:49 AM
+1 to Stuuk1
I would say that it would be more hassle for you to train up someone else, BUT...you need to make absolutely sure that this employee understands that anything that he does in or out of work that has a direct effect on his work is totally unacceptable. You could go down the route of contract changes that mean he funds his own transport, but it would probably be easier to explain to him that because other people will be taking time away from their own roles in order to ferry him about, his salary will be lowered to cover the additional costs to the company...more than fair.
Also, I would definately add a clause stating that any other traffic violations would result in immediate dismissal....even if you have to go down the route of "bringing the company into disrepute". If he's been caught speeding in the company vehicle....wipe the bleeding floor with him as while he is in that vehicle and on work time, he is as responsible for the reputation of the company as you are. I abhore employees who don't give a damn....it costs you business in the long run, so make sure he knows he's not going to get bailes out by you all the time and make him pay his own fine too.
Loads of people speed all the time and don't get caught because they are aware of what's around them. I would worry about anyone that can get caught speeding like this guy as the reason may be that he's just not paying that much attention and that could mean he doesn't see a bike/pedestrian/red light etc one day!
Good luck with it xxx
gruntygiggles
10-03-10, 01:22 AM
We've just been discussing this and to add a few points...
Making him pay for his own travel costs would not work IMO. He wouldn't be able to do the job using public transport as he'd be lucky to get two appointments in in one day, spending most of his time waiting for buses/trains. So, he'd have to use taxis and this would probably cost him most of his wages, if not more.
Personally, I wouldn't have written a letter to the court the last time he got caught, only because any letter like that COULD be seen as defending him and with the repuation of the company at stake, I'd rather foot the cost and always be able to say that as a company, we do not tolerate speeding as opposed to.....if one of our drivers speeds, we'll ask the court to be lenient and let him keep his job.
Sometimes it's better to just accept the cost of training someone else and as said before, I don't think guy can be that safe a driver....let alone the speeding as his awareness is clearly lacking.
I'd keep him on to save money, drastically reduce his salary, amend his contract and do something to reward the guys that are going to have to drive him around.
Also, I would make damn sure that he does not feel in the least that he has been let off the hook. If he gets a ban.......as Nic just said about Drews Post...he will make the insurance go up, so put something in place that makes him pay for this...be it through the salary drop OR through an agreed deduction from his salary.
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