Too late to stop 'climate change' says top enviro-scientist

[metalangel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8594000/8594561.stm


Professor James Lovelock, the scientist who developed Gaia theory, has said it is too late to try and save the planet.
The man who achieved global fame for his theory that the whole earth is a single organism now believes that we can only hope that the earth will take care of itself in the face of completely unpredictable climate change.
Interviewed by Today presenter John Humphrys, he said that while the earth's future was utterly uncertain, mankind was not aware it had "pulled the trigger" on global warming as it built its civilizations.

So there we go, we've been possibly screwed since, well, ever. So go buy a Land Rover, turn the heating up, and stop all this 'climate change' hair shirt nonsense.

[Sid Squid]

Did you see what his suggestion to improve matters was?

One of the main obstructions to meaningful action is "modern democracy", he added. "Even the best democracies agree that when a major war approaches, democracy must be put on hold for the time being. I have a feeling that climate change may be an issue as severe as a war. It may be necessary to put democracy on hold for a while."

Suspend democracy and impose governmental decision making without Parliamentary process?

W

T

F?

Can you imagine our present government hearing that? Music to their ears - we make the business of governing very awkward with our disagreeing. Just think of the possible 'anti terrorism measures' that could be enacted without the troublesome business of the proletariat objecting - all for our own good of course. Someone in his position and with the level of respect he commands should be more responsible with their comments.

[metalangel]

You could argue a lot of stuff has already been enacted for 'our own good'. My local council is turning off thousands of street lights every night to 'reduce carbon emissions'. The consultation with local residents was derisory at best.

[Triv650]

21st century is where it's all gonna go to plot. Famine, resource shortages, international war. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!

[Sid Squid]

http://lake.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83452654869e200e55282a8928834-500pi

[The Basket]

That guy is talking out of various orifices.

It seems to me global warming is the justification for high fuel prices. If we are all doomed then at least make petrol cheaper.

[Kuze]

Yea the worlds going to pot but if i can hold off for 30years its all gravy!

Then when i'm old and grey wire me into the net Ghost in the Shell style and i'll be one happy bunny!

[punyXpress]

[QUOTE=Sid Squid;2229824]Did you see what his suggestion to improve matters was?

Suspend democracy and impose governmental decision making without Parliamentary process?

Isn't this PRECISELY what's been happening the last dozen years?

[metalangel]

That guy is talking out of various orifices.

It seems to me global warming is the justification for high fuel prices. If we are all doomed then at least make petrol cheaper.

Isn't that what he's saying? That if there's nothing we can do to prevent something happening (if it's going to happen) then they should stop gouging us and using 'saving the planet' as an excuse?

[muffles]

Scientist in "we can't stop something that's way bigger than us & would happen regardless of our existence" shocker! :lol:

[Sid Squid]

Isn't this PRECISELY what's been happening the last dozen years?
Too true.

[Messie]

And the previous 18!



Sorry, just had to add some balance there

[The Basket]

TBH I could do with a little global warming.

Sick to death of snow.

[gruntygiggles]

Ah...this just annoys the carp out of me. Look at the history of the earth and you will see that this has happened before, it doesn't matter what we do to prevent it, all we can ever do is delay it and I have to laugh at the way that the human race seems to think it has the power to change the things that happen to this planet we inhabit. We are a teeny tiny spec in the lifecycle of Earth...we've done a lot to hurt it, but we're not having that massive an impact.

Crikey...anyone been to Yellowstone N.P. and seen all the geothermal activity there....I have a picture of a car park where the very morning we were there, a massive section f it just disappeared into the ground!. The whole area was due to erupt about 400,000 years ago so we are well overdue that and when it blows, the ash will wipe out the majority of the US, poison the seas, and come as far as western europe, contaminating everything and not many people will survive that!

Get over yourself Mr. Know it all scientist and tell us something we can't work out for ourselves!

[maff]

This might interest you

http://www.jimcorr.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=113

[TimTucker]

Get over yourself Mr. Know it all scientist and tell us something we can't work out for ourselves!

He did. It's called the Gaia Theory.

[gruntygiggles]

He did. It's called the Gaia Theory.


I know......which is why I didn't say "get over yourself James Lovelock". Many many scientists have harped on for years about the way we have created global warming and my criticism was aimed at them. The Gaia Theory is extremely complex, far too complex for me to understand fully, BUT.....we knew before it was made public by Lovelock and Lynn something beginning with M I think that the Earth has gone through this cycle before a few times.

[sarah]

yawn.

it is fairly certain that humans have caused climate change. all we can do now is to stop it from continuing so quickly. is it worth the hassle?

[TimTucker]

Yes, most people are aware we've had climate changes before, ice ages and what have you, but the reason why our climate has moved from one, seemingly stable state, to another, quite different one, is not so clearly understood. Gaia was one theory about how the Earth maintains that state and why it can also change.

What's new here is that the actions of human society is having an effect on climate and the scientific community is having debate on the scale and speed of that effect and also what the end state might be.

[gruntygiggles]

Agreed Tim......the side of the argument I get bored with is when it comes to "governments have used it as a way of guilting us into paying more duty on fuels". I get it in the ear from a lifelong friend all the time and so I just have a here e go again attitude when what I should really do is just keep schtum! :-)

[The Basket]

The problem is this...as I see it.

If a scientst says yes there is Climate Change and it is caused by man but the changes are so minimal that nothing will happen then who cares?

However...the press have got it in their heads that the end of the world is nigh and that we have 10 seconds before we all turn to dust.

Problem is the guy who has the theory of the worst case scenario gets the TV while the moderates get nothing...he who screams the loudest...

[gruntygiggles]

Gets heard by most and so here we are!

[instigator]

That guy is a grade-A bellend for saying something like that.

Stupid old f*ck doesn't have an idea what sort of effect words 'of wisdom' like that can have on the energy consumption of the general public. Who cares eh, he's just about to peg it anyway.

[muffles]

it is fairly certain that humans have caused climate change.

Was that a typo - you didn't seem to be disagreeing with other posters and they seem to be more of the next view, which is...

If a scientst says yes there is Climate Change and it is caused by man but the changes are so minimal that nothing will happen then who cares?

...which is "kinda" the version I sign up to (I think there is climate change, maybe not "minimal" as such, but 99% of it is natural not man-made).

[sarah]

Was that a typo - you didn't seem to be disagreeing with other posters and they seem to be more of the next view, which is...


no, not a typo.

[metalangel]

What's new here is that the actions of human society is having an effect on climate

Is it, though?

Look up The Medieval Warm Period and The Little Ice Age for 'climate change' before the invention of the V8 engine.

Even the IPCC has pondered it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Description_of_the_Medieval_Warm_Period_and_Little _Ice_Age_in_IPCC_reports) in between telling us that this time it's all our fault.

[muffles]

no, not a typo.

Ah, ok fair enough - definitely the opposite of my view then. I believe that the climate changes naturally and only a minute percentage is due to man's existence. As mentioned above it's kind of interesting that the world had climate change before we came along - did the dinosaurs cause climate change for the ice age?

I don't know if we should be trying to stop anything changing, is it even our place? (if it's natural change as I believe)

[sarah]

Ah, ok fair enough - definitely the opposite of my view then. I believe that the climate changes naturally and only a minute percentage is due to man's existence. As mentioned above it's kind of interesting that the world had climate change before we came along - did the dinosaurs cause climate change for the ice age?

I don't know if we should be trying to stop anything changing, is it even our place? (if it's natural change as I believe)

i agree that climate chamges naturally, only a fool wouldn't accept that.

but this time the evidence shows that the change in climate is most likely to be heavily influenced by human behaviour.

either way it's pretty ****ty and tbh i don't really care whose 'fault' is it.

it's gonna cause all sorts of problems, exacerbated by the increase in human population.

[muffles]

i agree that climate chamges naturally, only a fool wouldn't accept that.

but this time the evidence shows that the change in climate is most likely to be heavily influenced by human behaviour.

either way it's pretty ****ty and tbh i don't really care whose 'fault' is it.

it's gonna cause all sorts of problems, exacerbated by the increase in human population.

Agreed, it will cause some problems for us either way, I don't believe it's influenced that much by us (hence the point about the ice age, etc). I know statistics can be made to say whatever you want though, so I'm willing to accept I may be wrong.

[sarah]

Agreed, it will cause some problems for us either way, I don't believe it's influenced that much by us (hence the point about the ice age, etc). I know statistics can be made to say whatever you want though, so I'm willing to accept I may be wrong.

personally, i think that it's most important that people accept that it is happening and that we need to do stuff to deal with the implications of it.

[gruntygiggles]

Ah, ok fair enough - definitely the opposite of my view then. I believe that the climate changes naturally and only a minute percentage is due to man's existence. As mentioned above it's kind of interesting that the world had climate change before we came along - did the dinosaurs cause climate change for the ice age?

I don't know if we should be trying to stop anything changing, is it even our place? (if it's natural change as I believe)


You have the same views as me. I believe that as humans we have a duty to be as good to the environment as we can be while we are here and to try to protect the other species that we SHARE this planet with.

We cannot change the natural lifecycle of a planet, that is truly beyond our capabilities, natural disasters the world over show that, although we can create huge amounts of power ourselves, we pail in comparison to the power that the earth can produce. We are going to be gone one day and Earth will still be here. We are just a very very small part of the history of the planet.

Yes.....we have contributed to the ozone layer, but it's not as simple as just us.

in 1998, I went back to America where I lived as a child for a while. It was my parents, my sister and me and while there, we went to Yellowstone N.P. I have red hair and pale skin and so I use factor 50 sunblock! I got so badly burned, despite reapplying and having my arms and legs covered AND wearing a hat. It's no wonder I got so badly burned. Volcanoes and other geothermal events effect the Ozone layer just as we do. They create localised holes in the ozone layer above them, hence my bad burns.

Now, as said previously, one day....this "supervolcano" will erupt again. The 400,000 years overdue is somewhat questionable as there is no real pattern to the major eruptions that have happened there, However, it will happen again one day. When it does, like i said, most of the US, Canada and South America will be desolate within days and weeks of the eruption and the majority of the earth will be clouded by the ash. This will have a two fold effect.. Firstly, the temperature will drop rapidly as the ash will block the sun completely for a period of weeks and even months. After that, the massive amounts of harmful gasses released by the eruption will mean that the ozone layer would be hugely damaged and so, the temperature would rise again beyond its original temperature. All of these events mean that the ecosystems of the earth are greatly threatened. The temperature of the seas would mean that life underwater would take a massive hit. On land, billions of people would die due to lack of water and food. Some would survive the initial periods, but there is the risk that the long term effects would mean that life on earth for us complex organisms would become extremely difficult.

And after a while......the simple organisms would start to evolve again and a new era would begin.

We are nothing in comparison to what the earth is and while yes, we can do a lot to damamge it, it will do a much better job of damaging itself AND....while we might not survive, the Earth will. Sure, it'll be gone completely one day.....but we won't be able to stop or predict an event that extreme.

[gruntygiggles]

And that's just Yellowstone. There are many many other places on earth with equal and larger sized pockets of geothermal activity. Hawaii is a massive contributor to Ozone damage and as we discuss this, the icelandic eruption that has been going on for the past two weeks is doing a fair amount of damage as well!

[metalangel]

@GG: They don't say what the big catastrophe in The Road is, but it's entirely possible that Yellowstone is it.

[ophic]

After that, the massive amounts of harmful gasses released by the eruption will mean that the ozone layer would be hugely damaged and so, the temperature would rise again beyond its original temperature.
Now wouldn't a major ozone depletion event cause an overall drop in temperature?

[gruntygiggles]

Now wouldn't a major ozone depletion event cause an overall drop in temperature?


In the stratosphere yes, but not in the troposhere, which is what effects us day to day. Ozone depletionmeans that less heat can be trapped by the ozone layer, meaning the temperature in the stratoshpere where the ozone layer is, drops.

However, in the troposhphere, an increase in greenhouse gases (which as we know contributes to a decrease in ozone) means that more heat is trapped in this layer, effecting the temperature of the earth at our air level, hence the rapid depletion of the polar ice caps, where the ozone is most badly affected.

I think that makes sense.....going from memory here, so I'll go get my books out later.

[gruntygiggles]

In the stratosphere yes, but not in the troposhere, which is what effects us day to day. Ozone depletionmeans that less heat can be trapped by the ozone layer, meaning the temperature in the stratoshpere where the ozone layer is, drops.

However, in the troposhphere, an increase in greenhouse gases (which as we know contributes to a decrease in ozone) means that more heat is trapped in this layer, effecting the temperature of the earth at our air level, hence the rapid depletion of the polar ice caps, where the ozone is most badly affected.

I think that makes sense.....going from memory here, so I'll go get my books out later.


In relation to your post Ophic.....as I didn't make it very clear above.....the gases that are released from volcanic eruptions are largely made up of harmful greenhouse gasses, which would trap yet more heat at our tropospheric level, whislt also conrtibuting to a further depleted Ozone layer. Hope it maked sense...my brain hurts trying to remember all this :shock:

[Milky Bar Kid]

Erm...I'm confused..! Is that scientist dude saying not to bother changing our habits because the damage is too far gone, or is he sayings a natural occurrance and what will be, will be? Or have I got it completely wrong?

[ophic]

In relation to your post Ophic.....as I didn't make it very clear above.....the gases that are released from volcanic eruptions are largely made up of harmful greenhouse gasses, which would trap yet more heat at our tropospheric level, whislt also conrtibuting to a further depleted Ozone layer. Hope it maked sense...my brain hurts trying to remember all this :shock:
current theories change regularly anyway. I just read somewhere that ozone depletion would cause an overall drop in temperature throughout the earth. There's probably multiple theories bounding about anyway :)

[GeneticBubble]

I hear the world ends in 2012 anyway? so im not to fussed about climate change :rolleyes:

[gruntygiggles]

current theories change regularly anyway. I just read somewhere that ozone depletion would cause an overall drop in temperature throughout the earth. There's probably multiple theories bounding about anyway :)


I know.....which is why it's so tedious listening to scientists claiming "the next big theory". I still keep up when I can though because every now and then....something really is amazing!

[punyXpress]

I hear the world ends in 2012 anyway? so im not to fussed about climate change :rolleyes:

Time to get the miles in, then?

[punyXpress]

Not sure about volcanos making climate hotter - it didn't seem to after St Helens in 1980 and:
The few years following the Krakatoa explsion of 1883 provided a glimpse of the climate disturbances that can result from even moderate volcanism. Heavy rains fell for the next three years -- a remarkable thirty eight inches in Los Angeles in the following winter alone-- followed by anomalous droughts spreading from http://www.stanford.edu/%7Emeehan/donnellyr/larain.gifwest to east. Note as a measure of this eccentricity the high variance of rainfall in you Los Angeles record. Floods, too, plagued the world for the next decade. Nor was this calamitous impact confined to the New World; in Baghdad there was no rain whatsoever those years. Then, as if the skies were recovering, in the manner of a stretched elastic band, a wave of erratic floods swept the world in the late 1880s. In the American western plains cattle had died by the thousands as the plains were seared by drought; soon enough these lands were pounded by blizzards in 1886 and 1887. That same year brought an oddly summery winter to the East, with trees budding in Central Park, a freakish warmth terminating with a mid March blizzard that would go into history as The Great White Hurricane, horses http://www.stanford.edu/%7Emeehan/donnellyr/volcan.gifand U.S. Senators perishing alike in twenty foot drifts that howled through the eastern seaboard. The following Spring weird rains blew out a dam at Johnstone, Pennsylvania, drowning thousands. On the other side of the world the Yellow River spilled its banks violently, drowning nearly a million Chinese.

[Sid Squid]

I hear the world ends in 2012 anyway?
Before or after the Olympics?

[gruntygiggles]

That just goes to show what a massive effect a super volcano eruption would do to the earth! Scary isn't it.

The Ozone layer and greenhouse gas levels were nowhere near the same in 1883 that they are today though, so the world will be affected very differently because of that and that is where humans have had a big impact. We produce lots and lots of greenhouse gases and a massive eruption will hugely add to that. In 1883, I don't know if there would have been enough greenhouse gases present or indeed a seriously depleted ozone layer for an eruption as big as Krakatoa to have had an impact on the earths temperature, but.......I don't know for sure, so will have to go back to the books if I can be bothered.

It's like everything else, there are arguments for and against and I am slightly guessing through my limited knowledge in this post, so could be completely wrong :-)

[punyXpress]

[QUOTE=gruntygiggles;2232000]

" ....I don't know for sure, so will have to go back to the books if I can be bothered. "

You start getting yourself bothered, young lady! Some on here will want to know AR2012 will be happening. ;)

[gruntygiggles]

I only care about AR10 at the moment....lol. Have you seen the attendance list.....that's A LOT of bikers!!!!!

[yorkie_chris]

Before or after the Olympics?

Hopefully before to save us all the embarrassment.

[gruntygiggles]

Hopefully before to save us all the embarrassment.


Or make it during to save cost on the entertainment!

[Bluefish]

I only care about AR10 at the moment....lol. Have you seen the attendance list.....that's A LOT of bikers!!!!!


Nah, most are coming in cars.

[gruntygiggles]

Nah, most are coming in cars.

That's why I said bikers...not bikes :smt040