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the100thidiot
28-04-10, 12:45 PM
Need some advice from any advanced/Rospa/IAM types on here about progress, Stu or anyone else can you help clear something up for me? I found this post on another forum and is exactly my thinking:

“ went out on ride with an I.A.M. assessor, though a nice guy [ he was older than me] he was riding a 1300cc Pan with 4 cylinders and i was riding my slug a Pacific Coast 800cc with only two cylinders. The main criticism he made was overtaking.. apart from being on the motorway i overtook nothing. I tried to explain that if a car is doing 45mph or close to the limit in a 50 area with various bends, white lines, farm entrances etc If it was my decision to remain behind that car. at a safe distance then i would do so and not commit to a reckless overtaking manoeuvre which may be dangerous.

This did not sit well with him at all as he rides by the police rule of making progress and that any moving vehicle in front is a possible danger thus one should at the earliest opportunity overtake and leave the car well behind. where presumably it no longer constitute a danger. We disagreed on that point as well and as a result i was marked down on that one.

I've also heard of it happening with RoSPA. One candidate complained he was graded as silver rather than gold because his observer felt he'd failed to make progress adequately when he didn't overtake a car doing 56mph in a 60 limit .”

Is this a requirement that is expected all the time (when safe) to be up to advanced standard? If so, I fear I wouldn't stand a chance of passing ;)

This is the only thing that worries me about taking an assessed ride and signing up… I’m a fairly chilled out rider (or ride like a sissy girlie) and, like the guy above, if there is a car in front of me on a single carriageway doing 56 in a 60 chances are I cba to overtake unless it is really quiet on the roads or I’m in a serious rush and I’m happy with that – I can’t see the danger in doing 56 in a 60 behind a car with adequate braking distance but I can see myself getting into trouble by changing the way I ride to try follow this ‘rule’ and thinking to be advanced standard I would have to overtake every single car that is not dead on the speed limit.

Everything else they talked about at IAM made sense to me, also picked up a few bits especially about the limit points, so its all good. But thinking about it today I don’t understand the logic - Isn't the speed limit a maximum legal speed not a “you must always be riding xx mph exactly rule”. Maybe I just need more time on the bike, and shouldn't be worrying about this advanced stuff just yet :scratch:

Milky Bar Kid
28-04-10, 12:58 PM
I was taught the "progressive" approach to driving when I did my advanced Police driving course. It was always drummed into us to be progressive and not aggressive in our driving. However, we would get marked down for not taking an available overtake as it would be classed as hesitancy.

I think, or certainly the way it was explained to us it, when you are an advanced driver/rider, your observations and anticipations are far greater, or are meant to be, than that of the untrained driver so that if there is an actual danger, you would have spotted it miles back and thus not taken the overtake, but vice versa too, if the overtake was on, you should have carried out all your obs and prepared for the overtake and be ready to go as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

That said, just because you are trained like that doesn't mean you have to do it all the time. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

The biggest thing you will learn from any advanced training is observation and anticipation. You will be far more aware of your surroundings and see so much more after training so if you don't want to take an overtake and you get marked down for it, does it really matter? You will still have had invaluable training.

Stig
28-04-10, 02:37 PM
I can't see the point in it all to be honest. I took advanced riding lessons as soon as I had passed my test. I learnt a whole heap of stuff that normally would have only come from experience and near misses.

The IAM and ROSPA type groups give advanced lessons but give out 'rewards' by following their particular rules. There are no rules when it comes to your own riding and what you feel safe doing or not doing. If your happy to have not overtaken the vehicle in front then good for you. I know I don't need some one sat behind me shaking his head and saying I should have made the overtake.

You can keep your gold star or certificate. I'll ride the way I want to. If I want lessons I'll take some, but not so I can 'pass' a non worthwhile test. I think a lot of riders do it so they can get cheaper insurance. I've found out the difference is so minimal it's not worth my time or cost to do it.

Having said all that. Good luck with it and hope you achieve what you want from it. :)

Stu
28-04-10, 02:58 PM
I can't see the point in it all to be honest.
I'll answer 100th when i've more time.
But the point of it is, it gives you access to membership of one of the best riding clubs available :D The .org being another - they are different and both have their benefits & downfalls and even though only one is free I would not want to give up either.

G
28-04-10, 03:00 PM
I can’t see the danger in doing 56 in a 60 behind a car with adequate braking distance but I can see myself getting into trouble by changing the way I ride to try follow this ‘rule’ and thinking to be advanced standard I would have to overtake every single car that is not dead on the speed limit.


The point is to remove ALL danger... you say you think there is no danger in following a car at below the speed limit. However, there is, the danger lies in the cars behind you getting frustrated at not doing the speed limit and wanting to overtake the slower vehicles themselves.

They make take unecessary risks to over take you and the slower vehicle...THAT is the the danger.

So better to get by at a safe oppurtunity (there will be one) and remove all risk.

the100thidiot
28-04-10, 04:33 PM
I can't see the point in it all to be honest. I took advanced riding lessons as soon as I had passed my test. I learnt a whole heap of stuff that normally would have only come from experience and near misses.

Well, you > than me. I have been riding just over a year and had too many near misses for my liking and all weather commuting over winter (excluding snow/ice) and they still managed to make me think about a few things so I don't doubt these guys can teach me stuff.

I guess it depends on your attitude - if your there just for the reduced insurance then I think you have already closed your mind off. Me on the other hand, happy to confess I know jack*hit, will never stop learning, and I'll take all the 'how to stay alive on 2 wheels' advice I can get.

As for "non worthwhile test" - is there any serious research into this (and maybe from website more reputable than wikipedia)? I found this -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Advanced_Motorists

Read the bit about the Brunel University research. Must apply to the biking training a little bit too, right? I mean the finer details between riding a bike and driving a car are different, but the basic stuff - spotting potential hazards and not crashing part ha got to be pretty similar? Like MBK said "advanced training is observation and anticipation". If riding and driving were that different I don't think I could have passed my test having only done my CBT, but with over 10 years car driving. So yeah, I'll sign up for that advanced training please.

I just needed someone to explain the thinking behind the 'must overtake' mentality which, to me as a big noob just looks like aggressive riding. I was thinking how is this safer!? I wasn't thinking bout the guy driving/riding behind me who may not be too happy about not going as fast as he can. I have had plenty of people in cars try and bully me off the road when doing 30 in a 30 zone on my 125 so yeah, I totally get this now. Another thing learned courtesy of the IAM, with a lil help from you guys.

Well, now I get the theory behind it but it doesn't mean I'll be able to actually put it in to practice.

Dave20046
28-04-10, 04:49 PM
It's more down to the rider than the organisation if they're aggressive or progressive but I'd say it's likely that the person quoted above just hadn't ever ridden with someone as fast as the IAM bloke. IAM guys tend to be highly trained, experienced skilled riders they're bound to be fast.
I've done IAM in my car but to be honest the majority of them were ******s (apart from my supervisor thankfully)so I didn't keep it up but I can say I'm much safer for it.
I'm keen to do bike IAM , my riding's gone down hill recently but even before then I know I'd have benefited from it.
Last year I did bikesafe and that's like a mini IAM course, all the stuff they taught us I knew from IAM in my car (but good to refresh) but the most invaluable bit was getting feedback on your riding from a police rider. Might be worth doing a bikesafe first?
The point is to remove ALL danger... you say you think there is no danger in following a car at below the speed limit. However, there is, the danger lies in the cars behind you getting frustrated at not doing the speed limit and wanting to overtake the slower vehicles themselves.

They make take unecessary risks to over take you and the slower vehicle...THAT is the the danger.

So better to get by at a safe oppurtunity (there will be one) and remove all risk.
That's exactly what that blue clio did on saturday. I thought he was going to try run you off the road :toss:
There's also the risk of them doing something stupid (either on purpose or by accident) rear shunts are dangerous for bikers.
The point is to remove ALL danger... you say you think there is no danger in following a car at below the speed limit. However, there is, the danger lies in the cars behind you getting frustrated at not doing the speed limit and wanting to overtake the slower vehicles themselves.

They make take unecessary risks to over take you and the slower vehicle...THAT is the the danger.

So better to get by at a safe oppurtunity (there will be one) and remove all risk.
Again; friday night on the way to wales - closest thing to a head on I've ever seen. Truck thing at the front then orose, then some **** in a toyota , then paul, then me. Ollie went to overtake the truck (slight bend to the left but plenty of room and you could see far enough to do it safely on a bike) then paul goes but as he does this the toyota decides he wants to, swerving towards paul, paul gets out of there safely, then I hang back and this car juts out slap bang into the middle of the oncoming lane blindly and a line of oncoming cars madly swerve out the way. Heart stopped for a second.

-Ralph-
28-04-10, 07:02 PM
I agree completely that you shouldn't be forced to overtake.

If you look to the examiner like you intend to overtake, then miss a safe opportunity, then yes that is a hesitation. But if you cruise up to the rear of a car, maintain your distance and continue at 56mph, in my book that should be fine in anyone's book! How can it be a hesitation if you never intended to overtake in the first place?

An extra 4mph is about 4 minute saving over a 1 hour ride with an average 60mph speed. Is it that critical?

I've had criticism from an advanced riding instructor who was riding behind me for waiting for a car to pass at a give way, instead of pulling out and gunning it away from the junction, which I would have to do to prevent the oncoming vehicle from having to change speed or direction. I told him I was in no hurry and he needed to learn some patience!

I was told on a bike safe ride that I gunned it too hard on an overtake, when I took the advice from an advanced riding DVD to give it a good bit of power to get past and spend less time in the danger zone alongside the car and on the wrong side of the road.

It's this kind of thing that puts me off advanced training, it's a bit hypocritical sometimes and what one observer/instructor praises you for another one can criticise you. And it's supposed to be about safety, you can't break the speed limit in the exam, but the instructors criticise for failing to make progress in observed rides.

I think you just have to do it with the approach that you take from it the advice that helps you or teaches you something, and ignore the stuff you don't agree with.

I have a friend who has just passed his IAM observers test, and if I do my IAM with anybody it will be him, because I know his personality he will judge each manoeuvre on it's merits and with a dose of realism, rather than apply hard and fast rules for the sake of it.

kitkat
28-04-10, 07:18 PM
I did my IAM test years ago (could benefit from a refresher me thinks) anyway I was also a qualified observer (dont allow this to make you think Im a good rider, Ive lost my confidence hence the unable to ride bit). I was advised (we dont teach) and therefore advised my associates to only overtake if they could do so safely and quickly within the speed limit. Ie if car in front doing 56mph in a 60 I was expect them to sit behind as they would only be able to get past him "quickly" by speeding. You dont want to be sitting on the wrong side of the road for any length of time. But if the car was doing 45mph in a 60, I would expect the rider to make an effort to pass. This would involve getting bike ready for overtake, getting into overtaking position, doing all checks and if not safe then back off and repeating this as and when necessary.

I would thoroughly recommend the IAM, a lot of people think its a lot of pipe smoking numpties on pans and a lot of them are, but they would still ride the butt off many colour coordinated GSXR weekend warriors without having to put down their pipe.

Red Herring
28-04-10, 07:58 PM
My general advice is that if you have come up behind another vehicle it tends to suggest that your average speed is higher than theirs, so if a safe and appropriate opportunity to pass arises then it would not be unreasonable to expect you to take it. If you don't take it I would be looking more at the reasons you didn't go rather than simply telling you that you should have gone. Is it that you saw danger where there wasn't any, perhaps you lack some confidence in what you do see, or perhaps you just weren't looking for the right information. Certainly on an IAM test you would be unlikely to be failed for missing a single overtake, but if it was a general trait you would be unlikely to make the expected standard. Progress is not about going fast, it's about processing information swiftly which allows you to maintain speed where appropriate.

-Ralph-
28-04-10, 09:00 PM
My general advice is that if you have come up behind another vehicle it tends to suggest that your average speed is higher than theirs, so if a safe and appropriate opportunity to pass arises then it would not be unreasonable to expect you to take it. If you don't take it I would be looking more at the reasons you didn't go rather than simply telling you that you should have gone.

When I come up behind another vehicle, perhaps because I was speeding a bit and the other vehicle was a bit below the speed limit. 5 - 10 mph difference in speed, I make a decision about whether I am going to look for an overtake opportunity, or just adjust the average speed I am travelling at.


I often do this and think "well he's just about doing 60mph, it's a 60 limit, I was only doing 5 - 10 mph more than him anyway, so I'm happy enough to sit behind him"

Saves fuel & wear and tear
More relaxing, a long A road journey overtaking everything going slower than you, then you arrive 10 minutes earlier, but more stressed and fatigued than if you just went with the flow. I'm a high mileage driver, the more relaxing I can make my journeys, the less stressful my job becomes.
Reduces risk
Minimal cost in terms of journey time
The driver will probably take a different direction in the next 10-20 miles anyway
So those are my reasons, maybe you personally think they are perfectly valid, but what is it that the advanced driving/riding community in general finds so wrong with that exactly? It's called patience and going with the flow.

Red Herring
28-04-10, 09:16 PM
There's nothing wrong with that approach, I frequently like to chill out and knock a bit off the pace, but not what I'm on an advanced test and expected to demonstrate my observation, anticipation and planning skills. It would be no good saying to the examiner, "well I could have done it if i wanted to". They will be examining you on what you did, not on what you wanted to do!

-Ralph-
28-04-10, 09:26 PM
I guess what a good observer needs to say is

"there's nothing wrong with that, not overtaking doesn't mean that you are not of the standard to pass an advanced test, and after you've passed the test you do what you like, but for the purposes of the test you will need to demonstrate in a short space of time that you are capable of seizing overtake opportunities, so you need to practice swift and safe overtakes on your observed rides"

There does seem to be some advanced training going on, where overtakes are seen as mandatory,

This did not sit well with him at all as he rides by the police rule of making progress and that any moving vehicle in front is a possible danger thus one should at the earliest opportunity overtake and leave the car well behind. where presumably it no longer constitute a danger. We disagreed on that point as well and as a result i was marked down on that one.

and some riders continue with this mentality after they have passed the test.

Kilted Ginger
28-04-10, 09:57 PM
Unfortunately its not that black and white. Taking your 56mph example, to stay within the speed limit you only have 4mph to pass the vehicle, assuming 150yds to make a safe overtake that would take well over a minute.
The question then becomes given the road, weather, traffic, visibility would it be safe to be on the wrong side of the road for over a minute given that during that time you would have travelled a mile along said road (unless my math is way off)

This could be a perfectly safe overtake given the right circumstances but then you have to consider the vehicle. if its 64 yearold lady driving to church then you can be fairly sure her speed will not alter, ifi its 2 baseball cap wearing neds in a pimped out corsa you can reasonably expect them to accelerate as you overtake as you would be threatening their manhood. (apologies if stereotypes offend)

To answer the op, the object is to SAFELY make progress. The aim is to equip you with the tools to reach the decision as to which overtake is safe. If an advanced course expects you to adhere to the speed limit (they do) then you cannot be expected to overtake a vehicle doing 56 in a 60 unless the planets align.

For me any advanced training provides you with the tools to apply ideas and practices to your style of riding in a way which hopefully both improves it and increases your safety.

Stu
28-04-10, 11:59 PM
Siting behind a car is putting yourself in conflict with a hazard on the road, you don't know how erratic their driving could become. If you overtake & then sit at 60 mph while the other car continues at 56, then you will be moving away from the hazard at over 100 meters a minute, so after 5 mins you'll be half a km away, I like the sound of that instead of remaining 2 seconds away from them. (If you do the speed limit of 50 while the other car was doing 45 then it would be over 150 meters extra clearance between you per minute)The point is to remove ALL danger... Well, I would say minimise all danger - if you want to remove it, stay at home :p but yes, otherwise I would agree with you.


An extra 4mph is about 4 minute saving over a 1 hour ride with an average 60mph speed. Is it that critical?
I would see it completely opposite from you, see my example of having half a km of clearance after just 5 mins.
It's this kind of thing that puts me off advanced training, it's a bit hypocritical sometimes and what one observer/instructor praises you for another one can criticise you.then pay £400 or whatever it is for California Superbike School or £30/£40 an hour for other professional training, otherwise try to put up with a few inconsistencies as you enjoy your free training, we try our best. And it's supposed to be about safety, you can't break the speed limit in the exam, but the instructors criticise for failing to make progress in observed rides.perhaps you should actually go through the training and you'll learn what you can actually get away with on the test

I think you just have to do it with the approach that you take from it the advice that helps you or teaches you something, and ignore the stuff you don't agree with.that's your choice but if you choose to ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you may not pass your test, or be welcome riding with members of the club, depending what it is you choose to ignore.

I have a friend who has just passed his IAM observers test, and if I do my IAM with anybody it will be him, because I know his personality he will judge each manoeuvre on it's merits and with a dose of realism, rather than apply hard and fast rules for the sake of it.
The only hard and fast rule required by the IAM AFAIK is to think for yourself when you're riding.


The driver will probably take a different direction in the next 10-20 miles anyway



Personally I couldn't think of anything more stressful than follow someone else I was not with for 20 miles :shock:


I guess what a good observer needs to say is
... and after you've passed the test you do what you like, A good observer would never say that, they and the IAM if you become a member would always like you to ride to the standard but for the purposes of the test you will need to demonstrate in a short space of time that you are capable of seizing overtake opportunities, so you need to practice swift and safe overtakes on your observed rides"
Yes that bit is right

Stu
29-04-10, 12:11 AM
Sorry J. I did want to answer your original qu. instead of getting carried away with the other replies.
The first thing to note is that speedos are inaccurate, so you need to learn what your own is like so that you can truly know what you are allowed. So compare with a sat nav if possible, or other bikes if they have been able to asses how accurate theirs are.
Of course speed limits are a limit and not a target and they do not need to be achieved unless conditions allow, but if conditions do allow, then yes as an advanced rider, you will be expected to demonstrate that you are capable of riding up to the speed limits, and that will generally mean you need to make progress.
If you cross the line (wherever that line is) and start riding aggressively then I wouldn't expect you to pass the IAM test while doing so.

HTH or let me know :)

tom_d
29-04-10, 05:03 AM
I'm with Ginger. If the vehicle is doing 'just' under a 60 speed limit and I was going to overtake I would prob end up doing 70 at the end because I like to spend the least amount of time as possible in the opposite lane. If the circumstances allow me the end up doing 70, or if I'm on a 'spirited' ride, then I'll happily go for it. However if I'm in no rush, or the weather/traffic/presence of police mean that it's not a good idea then I'll back off. I don't see the need to overtake something because its in front of me.
I use the same policy with filtering, especially on the motorway. If the traffics doing 40 or more then I don't bother.

Red Herring
29-04-10, 05:47 AM
An IAM examiner will be looking for safe, smooth and systematic riding with sufficient progress for you to be able to demonstrate your observation, anticipation and planning skills. The IAM's advice is that you will be expected to ride up to the speed limit if conditions and circumstances allow, but they do not expect you to pass their test if you break the limits. Personally I've never known anybody even come close to failing an IAM test for excess speed, generally it is the complete opposite. They are so concerned about making a mistake they slow everything down and the ride completely loses it's edge.

An advanced rider oozes confidence, and that won't come overnight. It's something you really need to work on and the way to do it is to continually assess what you are doing and be constructive in your self criticism. Good luck.

-Ralph-
29-04-10, 12:16 PM
but if you choose to ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you may not pass your test, or be welcome riding with members of the club, depending what it is you choose to ignore

If I were to base it only on what you have written, I'd say that passing an IAM test is not for me then. A little green badge really isn't that important to me, I'd only do the course in order to gain something from the training and I'd only do the test in order to get cheaper insurance.

I'm not a sheep and I make my own decisions when riding or driving and always will do, I'm not following a hard and fast rule for the rest of my life because the IAM says I should. I'd follow a rule to get through a test, but if I don't agree with it then after that it's out the window.

]Personally I couldn't think of anything more stressful than follow someone else I was not with for 20 miles :shock:

I don't see the difference between someone you are with and someone you are not with. If you are on a rideout or following on an observed ride then your happy to sit behind, but if it's a stranger you are not?

Whether or not your happy to sit behind is just a state of mind, and has a lot to do with levels of patience, which appears to change in your case depending upon who is driving the vehicle in front.

I never find driving or riding "stressful" per se, unless someone starts road raging on me, but there are more and less relaxed journeys. The only time sitting behind somebody has me "stressed" (although stressed is too strong a word), is if I want to overtake them and there is no opportunity to do so for a considerable distance. If I don't want to overtake them, sitting behind them causes me no stress at all.

I'll be happy sitting behind them if I feel they are travelling at an appropriate speed for the road, conditions and speed limit.

Stu
29-04-10, 12:29 PM
If I were to base it only on what you have written, I'd say that passing an IAM test is not for me then. A little green badge really isn't that important to me,me either, I would never display it. But I love my IAM group. I'd only do the course in order to gain something from the training and I'd only do the test in order to get cheaper insurance.

I'm not a sheep and I make my own decisions when riding or driving and always will do, I'm not following a hard and fast rule for the rest of by life because the IAM says I should. I'd follow a rule to get through a test, but if I don't agree with it then after that it's out the window.As I said eleswhere I think, the only hard and fast rule required by the IAM is to think for yourself, I'd be very grateful if someone could point out any other IAM rule that must be strictly adhered to.



I don't see the difference between someone you are with and someone you are not with. If you are on a rideout or following on an observed ride then your happy to sit behind, but if it's a stranger you are not? Say a short rideout, then generally I would be marking junctions & moving about in the group, on a cross continent rideout then I will accept that I will have to sit behind another person on the rideout for a considerable period of time. Otherwise, on my own I will only be behind another vehicle if I have caught up to it (as RH said) so I would want to overtake it and carry on at my choosen speed not theirs. Alternatively, they have caught up with me, overtaken me & then slowed down to my speed :confused: I would not want to be around such an irrational driver, so would adjust my speed to get away from them.

Whether or not your happy to sit behind is just a state of mind, and has a lot to do with levels of patience, which appears to change in your case depending upon who is driving the vehicle in front.

I never find driving or riding "stressful" per se, unless someone starts road raging on me, but there are more and less relaxed journeys. The only time sitting behind somebody has me "stressed" (although stressed is too strong a word), is if I want to overtake them and there is no opportunity to do so for a considerable distance.
Likewise, I never get stressed riding a bike, I would get annoyed in a car not being able to overtake or filter.

-Ralph-
29-04-10, 12:36 PM
I use the same policy with filtering, especially on the motorway. If the traffics doing 40 or more then I don't bother.

+1, because it's being stationary or at very slow speeds that knock your journey times, so if the traffic is flowing then filtering is more risk than benefit. Plus if the traffic's doing 40 and you are filtering, your probably weaving through the traffic at close to 60mph.

It's the same principal with A roads, if the vehicle in front is doing 55mph, your wheels are still rolling at a decent rate, and there comes a point where an overtake isn't worth it.

I also think that there will be a difference in attitude between someone who is driving throughout the day for work and is being paid to sit at 55mph, someone who is a commuter and want's to get to work on time or get home for tea, and someone who is out at the weekend for a blast on their bike.

You'd see a completely different driver in me during the week in the car, as you would at the weekend out for a blast on the bike. During the week sitting in a 1.8 Vectra with no torque, and doing a lot of mileage hence increasing my risk of being caught for speeding, I'll be driving at the speed limits and a 55mph car is often not worth overtaking. On a weekend ride on the bike for pleasure, my average speed will be much higher and the opportunities for overtaking on a powerful bike much greater, so I'll go for an overtake in the majority of cases.

-Ralph-
29-04-10, 12:44 PM
but if you choose to ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you may not pass your test, or be welcome riding with members of the club, depending what it is you choose to ignore.

I'd be very grateful if someone could point out any other IAM rule that must be strictly adhered to

Must be adhered to when riding with an IAM group, or must be adhered to to pass the test?

I've not done IAM yet, so I wouldn't know. I just thought that you already had some in mind when you say that you may not pass you test, or be welcome in an IAM group if you ignored it.

Likewise, I never get stressed riding a bike, I would get annoyed in a car not being able to overtake or filter.

Then you need to reset your expectations before you get into the car. You know as soon as you step in the tin box, you take up more space on the road and have less power, and you just have to accept that there will be occasions that you can't overtake or filter. Getting annoyed achieves nothing.

the100thidiot
29-04-10, 01:22 PM
Thanks for all your input guys. I understand there is no right or wrong answer, and it all depends on what is happening on the roads around you at the time.

Certainly on an IAM test you would be unlikely to be failed for missing a single overtake, but if it was a general trait you would be unlikely to make the expected standard. Progress is not about going fast, it's about processing information swiftly which allows you to maintain speed where appropriate.

I also think that there will be a difference in attitude between someone who is driving throughout the day for work and is being paid to sit at 55mph, someone who is a commuter and want's to get to work on time or get home for tea, and someone who is out at the weekend for a blast on their bike.

You'd see a completely different driver in me during the week in the car, as you would at the weekend out for a blast on the bike. During the week sitting in a 1.8 Vectra with no torque, and doing a lot of mileage hence increasing my risk of being caught for speeding, I'll be driving at the speed limits and a 55mph car is often not worth overtaking. On a weekend ride on the bike for pleasure, my average speed will be much higher and the opportunities for overtaking on a powerful bike much greater, so I'll go for an overtake in the majority of cases.

It’s a general trait for me, I think... I do overtake sure, but most of the time I’m just not in a rush to get to work (the majority of my riding is commuting - 5 days a week daily commute vs. any time I get to play at the weekends) sometimes still half asleep in the morning. So mostly my overtakes/filter on single carriageways are generally kept to the a minimum, especially after the guy the other week filtered past me in a big traffic jam which turned the A3 into a car park (its seems I filter quite slowly, most bikes I come across whizz past me when filtering). Then I filtered past him lying on the A3 with his bike on its side, surrounded by cops/paramedics eek!

But anyway - I’m heading Sandhurst way tonight, I’m going to take the single carriageway route for a change, so I don’t have the choice of using the fast lane on the M25/M3 to overtake so I can consciously be more progressive.

orose
29-04-10, 05:02 PM
One reason I've had suggested to me as a reason for taking the overtake is looking further down the track, where the road gets a little more twisty and the speed of the car drops further. By taking advantage of the overtake on the straighter part, you then can control your own position and speed for the new road conditions.

DanAbnormal
29-04-10, 07:31 PM
I find the IAM as an organisation to think quite highly of itself. Not saying you won't learn anything, you probably will but I've met far too many IAM riders who waffle on about it and to be honest they are just same as the rest of us average motorcylists. Now Rospa seems to be a great organisation with emphasis on prevention and a retest every 2 years to keep you fresh.

Do you know what the police bikers call IAM?

I'm an Average Motorcyclist. :smt116

IAM just rub me up the wrong way. Don't listen to me though, I'm just bitter. :smt052

dirtydog
29-04-10, 09:19 PM
but I've met far too many IAM riders who waffle on about it


Not once have I waffled on about it to you (don't think i've waffled on about it at all)

IAM just rub me up the wrong way. Don't listen to me though, I'm just bitter. :smt052

You didn't reach the required standard then Dan :rolleyes:;)

DanAbnormal
29-04-10, 09:28 PM
Not once have I waffled on about it to you (don't think i've waffled on about it at all)




You didn't reach the required standard then Dan :rolleyes:;)


SEE YOU'RE WAFFLING! :cool:

It wouldn't be the first time mate that I haven't met someone's standards. :p

darylB
30-04-10, 08:05 AM
Perhaps your observer phrased his words wrongly, instead of saying you must overtake he should have pointed out that you could have overtaken quite safely on a few occasions. I would never tell anyone when i'm observing them that they must overtake, it's up to the individual to do what they are confident with, if i was out with an associate and he never took a safe overtake i would stop them and have a chat and then suggest they follow me for a while, it is all about making making progress safely and confidently. As to the speed limits some examiners stick religiously to the limits, especially 30's 40's and 50's, but most will allow a small amount over in 60's for an overtake, if it's safe, as long as you drop back to 60 after. The less time you are on the wrong side of the road the better. A car doing 55 will at some point give you an opportunity for a swift overtake, ie out of a corner, and i would expect it to be taken as quickly and safely as possible, even if you went over 60 by a reasonable amount, i'd rather you kept your eyes on the road and not the speedo, if you then kept accelerating after the overtake then obviously that would be frowned upon. Don't be put off by one observers comments as we are all different and are only trying to help improve riders safety and life span and all have a slightly different view on what a rider is doing.

Daryl.

keith_d
30-04-10, 08:59 AM
A while back I took an introductory ride with an IAM instructor was which fine - lots of things for me to improve on. Afterwards he was in a bit of a hurry to get back because his son had been hurt at football. So I got a demonstration of what progressive riding is really about.

I think he may have stowed his pipe and slippers because it was very 'educational' indeed. :grin:

the100thidiot
30-04-10, 11:49 AM
I think this thread has gone a little astray, and I just wanted to point out I have never had an observed ride, or any IAM people comment on my riding. I have attended a classroom style chat with some pictures about various different situations.

I'm happy riding at the speeds I ride, following the ubiquitous advice of ride your own ride - sod everyone else, but feel extra training can never be a bad thing. I'm not the most confident person on two wheels, and my OH is always commenting on the fact that "I'm too slow". Men... :rolleyes:

I was just a bit concerned about getting in waaay over my head, and going on an observed ride and being left far behind, feeling pressure to keep up and getting the usual "too slow - useless woman" comments. Not exactly confidence building ;)

On top of that, not really understanding certain aspects of advanced riding, didn't help, as to me it looked like agressive riding as fast you can just for the hell of it ... nothing wrong with that if thats your thing, but a bit out of my league atm

Stu
30-04-10, 11:59 AM
I think this thread has gone a little astray, Should have posted it in your local regional section, then you'd only get happy positive replies :pand I just wanted to point out I have never had an observed ride, or any IAM people comment on my riding. I have attended a classroom style chat with some pictures about various different situations.

I'm happy riding at the speeds I ride, following the ubiquitous advice of ride your own ride - sod everyone else, but feel extra training can never be a bad thing. I'm not the most confident person on two wheels, and my OH is always commenting on the fact that "I'm too slow". Men... :rolleyes:

I was just a bit concerned about getting in waaay over my head, and going on an observed ride and being left far behind, feeling pressure to keep up and getting the usual "too slow - useless woman" comments. Not exactly confidence building ;)I have the utmost confidence that will not happen :)

On top of that, not really understanding certain aspects of advanced riding, didn't help, as to me it looked like agressive riding as fast you can just for the hell of it ... nothing wrong with that if thats your thing, but a bit out of my league atm

You will never be put under any pressure to ride over the speed limit
Hopefully we will be able to give you the skills for you to be happy riding up to the speed limit
Hopefully we will ride to not appear aggressive, it is certainly not something we would want you to become.

the100thidiot
30-04-10, 12:24 PM
Should have posted it in your local regional section, then you'd only get happy positive replies :p

Errm, yeah sorry about that... I did realise after I'd posted that it was probably in the wrong place

Not really doing my gender any favours today - sissy riding and now can't even you a forum correctly :oops:

keith_d
30-04-10, 12:41 PM
I've only done a sample IAM observed ride, but at no point was in under any pressure to overtake or ride at anything except my own speed. (Though I did make an effort to slow down a bit.)

When we stopped I was given several suggestions for improving my riding, generally phrased, "Why did you do it this way..", rather than, "You should have..".

It's definitely worth going along for a ride, even if you decide that style of riding/learning isn't for you.

Just my thoughts,

Keith.

dirtydog
30-04-10, 10:10 PM
It wouldn't be the first time mate that I haven't met someone's standards. :p


See that's why you had trouble keeping up with me through Guildford on the way to the pub that time ;)

DanAbnormal
30-04-10, 10:35 PM
See that's why you had trouble keeping up with me through Guildford on the way to the pub that time ;)

No that's because you drove that van like you stole it! :rolleyes:

Red Herring
01-05-10, 08:24 AM
Some decent Advanced riding training will go a long way to improve that confidence. You certainly shouldn't be under any pressure to "keep up", if for no other reason than you will be leading and setting the pace. Your speed may well improve after a while, but not because you make a decision to ride faster. It will simply be because you understand more about what you are doing and automatically start to look further ahead and process the information more quickly.

DanAbnormal
01-05-10, 08:45 AM
Another option, be it more expensive, is to go for an advanced ride with an instructor. While it will cost more these guys are fully qualified and get tested regularly and they know their stuff, i.e. it's their full time job not a part time vocation.

One of my mates is an instructor and he is by and far the best rider I've ever met. Let me know if you want his details.

dirtydog
01-05-10, 09:17 AM
No that's because you drove that van like you stole it! :rolleyes:

I always drive like that! :grin:;)

kitkat
01-05-10, 05:24 PM
I always drive like that! :grin:;)


:rolleyes: hence 9 points (not very IAM) is it Stu?;)

DanAbnormal
01-05-10, 08:32 PM
:rolleyes: hence 9 points (not very IAM) is it Stu?;)

Lol.
Must be a 'progressive' thing as I know 3 IAM people who have 9 points.
I have never been 'caught' speeding.:rolleyes:

Lack of forward obs I would say. :):)

dirtydog
01-05-10, 10:22 PM
It's not true, I was set up. Honest I was 8-[8-[8-[




:-dd:-dd:-dd

Stu
02-05-10, 03:49 PM
Lack of forward obs I would say. :):)
I always get taken from the rear :(

DanAbnormal
03-05-10, 07:31 AM
I always get taken from the rear :(

I've heard that about you! :o:p

Mark_h
03-05-10, 08:51 PM
IAM and ROSPA are not for everyone. Both encourage you to ride to exactly the same standard, and both use well meaning bikers to coach you to the standard to pass your test. IAM is pass/fail, ROSPA have bronze, silver, gold and a retest.

Both have good observers and bad observers. I sometimes cringe when an observer gives patronising advice or appears to be completely oblivious to the reasons a rider is doing what they are doing.

However by far the most consistent thing you'll find is that most of the people who talk it down have never actually given it a go or gave it a go, got one of the patronising dullards and hated it from that day on. Pretty much anyone who sticks with it will bore the pants off you as to how good it is if you give them the opportunity.

Like Stu, I'm an IAM observer and like to think I am not patronising or too pushy with riders and love the grin you get off someone who gets confidence to go round bends or deals with a situation that previously would have been a lot more dramatic.

As Stu said, you will ALWAYS be told to ride for yourself. You'll never be "forced" to ride faster than you are comfortable. At the end of the day there is only one person controlling your throttle, and it's not the fat pipe smoker on the Pan.

Give it a go. If you don't like what you're being told, then challenge the person telling you. If you feel they are going too fast, let them go. They'll wait up the road then you can talk about it.

Both WVAM (Stu) and TVAM (me) are big bike clubs (1000 members for TVAM) that also do IAM. Try them both, it will cost you nothing but time and you may enjoy it. If you don't then at least you'll know.

This is a lot longer than I had planned, but back to the original question. Will I be forced to be aggressive....No. Will I be patronised as a girl......highly unlikely. Will I get anything out of it.....only you will know!

If you end up trying TVAM, let me know and I'll look out for you.

Cheers,
Mark