small diesel cars, way of the future?

[thefallenangel]

With my old 1.2 Sporting Punto going on it's way i've been looking into a small 1.5 diesel and they are crazy cheap to run.

My dad's girlfriend had one and it was 60+mpg, £30 a tyre, £30 a year tax and £200 a year service and MOT and the insurance was pennies.

Has anyone on here got one of these cheap wonderous vehicles?

[Sosha]

No. I have a 1.5 diesel but it's not £30 a year to tax and the insurance isn't pennies. MPGs not dar off though.

[ravingdavis]

My mum has got a 9 month old Ford Fiesta 1.6 Diesel thingy. Brilliant little car, Ive has a drive of it and its easy, quiet, quick enough for a cage. She regularly drives in between Germany and the UK in it and can get something daft like 70mpg out of it on the motorway. With it being a ford it will never break and is dirt cheap to service and tax. (Im not even sure she has to pay any tax on it).

[Miss_Undaztood]

Deisel !!! I bloody hope not, satans fuel that stuff. Or old McDonald :)

When I looked at buying a new car I worked out that unless you do 20k miles or more a year, your wasting your money with a diesel. The cars are more expensive to buy, more expensive to service, more expensive to fill the tank, and if anything goes wrong with them, big bucks. So I bought a gas guzzling petrol 4x4 :)

But, that was 8 years ago and I must admit satans oil burners have improved alot in recent years and are actually quite good to drive nowadays. Not as slow, smelly and noisey as they used to be.

I would say work out what it would actually cost to run for the mileage you do, and compare that to the petrol version. If you dont do many miles you may be surprised.

On a similar note, one thing I absolutely hate, is a nice svelt sexy coupe or cabrio with a tractor clang eminating from the bonnet. Cheap skates. :)

[Miss_Undaztood]

With it being a ford it will never break

You jest ?

[cb1000rsteve]

I had a 1.4 TDCi Fiesta amd that would do 65mpg but you couldn't touch the accelerator!!! Normal driving returned 53 mpg which i was happy with. tax was only £35 a year too!!! The only reason i got rid was cos i couldn't filter!!! Got fed up of sitting in traffic so got rid and bought the SV. For this reason alone it will never be the answer. Bikes can filter cars can't

[Jabba]

With it being a ford it will never break.....

Fair does mate, that's the funniest thing I've read on here in weeks :lol:

Small diesels are good, but like an earlier poster said, you have to do the miles before they show an advantage. Or you have to keep them a long time.

You want a small, reliable car? Mazda 2 :thumbsup:

Better still, and if you can afford one, get a Mini. Expensive to buy but resale values are phenomenal.

[CheGuevara]

You want a small, reliable car? Mazda 2 :thumbsup:


That is a Ford Fiesta under the skin isn't it?

[ravingdavis]

Fair does mate, that's the funniest thing I've read on here in weeks :lol:



Seriously, Ive had two Fords, my parents have had god knows how many little fords as second cars for decades, never has one broken down. All have been services and looked after well however.

[cb1000rsteve]

I never had probs with my fords either apart from thinking my old XR3i was a tractor and tried to enter a field through a fence!! Then i bought a Vec b which was super reliable, so i thought i'd get a Vec C with the same engine. Big mistake!!! VX have gone down the pan. My next car will be a Blue Oval.

[embee]

Well, maybe, sort of.

As Miss U says, do the sums very carefully before deciding on the basis of running costs. I run a 1.0L Yaris which I've had for 10yrs and it's done 65k miles, if I'd bought the diesel at £1k more when new, and had got 20% better fuel economy, I'd now just about be breaking even (ignoring the fact that it would be a higher insurance group and servicing costs would have been higher plus the £1k sitting in the bank hasn't depreciated).

On a technical note, the big advantages in fuel economy (diesel vs petrol) really come from running at low loads where the diesel has big efficiency benefits, so that translates into either larger cars with big engines or a lot of town use where the engine is running at very light load or idling most of the time. The gains with smaller cars tend to be less because the engines work at higher specific load a lot more of the time.

[G]

I have literally just got a little diesel.

It's a 1.6tdci zetec S fiesta. It's only done 240 miles so far since Tuesday but I have average 65mpg, it's supposed to managed 78mpg but I'm not holding my breath.

The 20000 mile a year theory was more relevant when diesel was 30p a litre more than petrol, but at my local station petrol is 1p more expensive now. diesels are still slightly more to buy than the petrol equivelant. But the same to service.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs519.ash1/30543_386460249836_502519836_3653463_4031862_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs519.ash1/30543_386457514836_502519836_3653387_3742760_n.jpg

[Tim in Belgium]

What colour is tha Fiesta? I can't see through all the dirt ;)

I had an old '04 Seat Leon TDi, not bad and it may have even strayed on track, but as I wasn't paying for tyres, fuel and servicing I'm not sure what mpg or l/100km it got.

[Luckypants]

Where do folks get the idea that diesels are more expensive to service? My car needs a service every 18K or one a year, cost me £230 for the last one including MOT. The cost of diesel is the same or slightly less than petrol and the MPG is a significantly higher. Buying new takes some working out due to the silly premium charged on diesels in this country, but second hand is a no brainer IMO, since that new buy premium has been absorbed.

[carternd]

Slighty off-topic but bio-diesel is a damn sight nearer to happening in a big way than a non-fossil replacement for petrol. Give it a few years should have some tax savings on the fuel.

[Triv650]

Slighty off-topic but bio-diesel is a damn sight nearer to happening in a big way than a non-fossil replacement for petrol. Give it a few years should have some tax savings on the fuel.

With a greater need for arable land to produce food for a growing world population, growing bio-diesel just takes too much land to become a viable alternative.

[Miss_Undaztood]

Where do folks get the idea that diesels are more expensive to service? My car needs a service every 18K or one a year, cost me £230 for the last one including MOT. The cost of diesel is the same or slightly less than petrol and the MPG is a significantly higher. Buying new takes some working out due to the silly premium charged on diesels in this country, but second hand is a no brainer IMO, since that new buy premium has been absorbed.

My car only needs serviced once a year too, but the diesel version needs a service twice a year. Older diesels need more regular oil changes and fuel filter changes too. Plus, injectors dont last as long, pumps wear, and if a turbo goes pop, your fooked.

Up here, diesel is still more expensive than petrol, but generally speaking I admit there is not much difference in fuel costs these days.

Lastly, check out second hand car prices. Mostly diesels are still more expensive to buy because most people have the misconception that diesels are cheaper to run and therefore discount petrol cars without even checking.

[Luckypants]

My car only needs serviced once a year too, but the diesel version needs a service twice a year. Older diesels need more regular oil changes and fuel filter changes too. Plus, injectors dont last as long, pumps wear, and if a turbo goes pop, your fooked.

Fair comment I don't know what you drive, but on my Nissan service intervals are the same on the petrol models. Injectors don't last as long as what? spark plugs? :rolleyes: The fuel pump (more accurately compressor) may wear, but I've never had one start to go at less than 150K miles, plenty of petrol cars are on new fuel pumps at that stage. And any turbo'd car, petrol or diesel, if the turbo lets go it can be big money (waits for a rant from Ralph about BMW turbos 8-[).

I'm not having a pop, just I don't think the 'expensive to service' argument stands up.

[DarrenSV650S]

Diesel is the devil!!

Fookin hate the disgusting, smelly, smokey things

[G]

All fords are 12500 mile service intervals, petrol or diesel, both are priced the same.

All renaults are 18000 mile service intervals, petrol or diesel, both are priced the same.

The service cost arguement is not right at all. The fuel price difference is insignificant.

They do however cost more to buy, the petrol zetec s fiesta is £15k the diesel is £16.5k. But that is soon made up with the extra efficiency, lower emissions, cheaper road tax and significantly more mpg.

[Miss_Undaztood]

Fair comment I don't know what you drive, but on my Nissan service intervals are the same on the petrol models. Injectors don't last as long as what? spark plugs? :rolleyes: The fuel pump (more accurately compressor) may wear, but I've never had one start to go at less than 150K miles, plenty of petrol cars are on new fuel pumps at that stage. And any turbo'd car, petrol or diesel, if the turbo lets go it can be big money (waits for a rant from Ralph about BMW turbos 8-[).

I'm not having a pop, just I don't think the 'expensive to service' argument stands up.

Diesel injectors dont last as long as petrol injectors I meant, in my experience anyway. Again, only earlier diesels its called a fuel pump, or fuel distribution pump, nowadays its common rail injection more like a petrol. Generally most petrol cars don`t have a turbo but diesels need one otherwise their gutless, so you its 1 less thing to worry about on a petrol.

As I said earlier, I admit the difference between petrol and diesel in terms of costs and the way they drive is not as vast as it used to be, but I also do not agree with diesels automatically being cheaper to run than a petrol, and i`d be willing to bet that most people who run a diesel car, especially as a second car, are wasting money.

Edit : ( BTW its a Shogun Sport i have )

[Miss_Undaztood]

They do however cost more to buy, the petrol zetec s fiesta is £15k the diesel is £16.5k. But that is soon made up with the extra efficiency, lower emissions, cheaper road tax and significantly more mpg.

The reason some diesels are cheaper to tax is because the road tax system in this country is totally ludicrous. Diesels pump out more CO, particulates and soot. And they stink like melted plastic ! :(

Edit : I stand corrected, maybe, its NOX not CO

[G]

The reason some diesels are cheaper to tax is because the road tax system in this country is totally ludicrous. Diesels pump out more CO, particulates and soot. And they stink like melted plastic ! :(

I am afraid you are very very misguided in your views.

[Miss_Undaztood]

I am afraid you are very very misguided in your views.

Well, rightly or wrongly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, most of mine come from my own experience of from talking to car owners.

Personally, I still prefer the way a petrol car drives too.

Lastly :
http://www.parkers.co.uk/News/Motoring-Costs/Petrol-vs-Diesel-calculator/

[fizzwheel]

Has anyone on here got one of these cheap wonderous vehicles?

Chap I used to work with had a Citreon C3, IIRC 1.3l with a high pressure turbo. Thing was stupidly economical, was regularly returning 70mpg. He was at one point making money out of claiming fuel allowance for his company milleage...

[Wideboy]

a few years back i had a pug 106 XND 1.5........ 160 miles on a tenner easy

was a straight diesel no turbo but i can say I've driven slower petrols. Was a good car never missed a beat but you had to put up with the odd electrical fault every now and again but that's typical pug oh and they were awkward as buggery to work on :rolleyes:

[tigersaw]

I've got a diesel Yaris. It can make 60mpg on a run, tax is £30 and service has been under £200 proper dealer and all. Its nippy enough too at 0-60 in just over 10 seconds so can't grumble about anything really.
Oh yes I can, the heater is rubbish.

[ravingdavis]

Well, rightly or wrongly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, most of mine come from my own experience of from talking to car owners.

Personally, I still prefer the way a petrol car drives too.

Lastly :
http://www.parkers.co.uk/News/Motoring-Costs/Petrol-vs-Diesel-calculator/

Might I point you to the fiesta website which lists carbon output of the cars:
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Fiesta/FueleconomyandCO2emissions

My mums fiesta is the 1.6 diesel putting out an almost unbearable 107g/km of carbon.

Now look at the smallest engined petrol, the 1.25 putting out 127g/km.

Damn those horrible carbon spewing atmosphere detroying diesels... oh hang on a sec, the diesel is nearly 16% cleaner! and that is in a best to worst comparison. The 'big' diesel is also has the most useful power being the quickest accelerating 31-62 time of all the engines.

[Miss_Undaztood]

Might I point you to the fiesta website which lists carbon output of the cars:
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Fiesta/FueleconomyandCO2emissions

My mums fiesta is the 1.6 diesel putting out an almost unbearable 107g/km of carbon.

Now look at the smallest engined petrol, the 1.25 putting out 127g/km.

Damn those horrible carbon spewing atmosphere detroying diesels... oh hang on a sec, the diesel is nearly 16% cleaner! and that is in a best to worst comparison. The 'big' diesel is also has the most useful power being the quickest accelerating 31-62 time of all the engines.

As I said, I was wrong, its NOX that diesels spew out. Either way, I still dont like the smell, or noise of a diesel.

AND! Surely this is going off topic a wee bit ?
My original point was to actually do the calculations on which is cheaper to run, and not to just blindly assume that diesels are cheaper for everyone.
You`ll be advocating diesel motorbikes next, lol :)

[fizzwheel]

Personally, I still prefer the way a petrol car drives too.

I know what you mean, but I would wager that if you drove the right Diesel you'd change your mind. I did...

Our Focus Tdci is just as much fun and enjoyable to drive as my Golf GTi was. In some ways especially on the motorway its actually nicer.

[the white rabbit]

My 1.9 TiD SAAB does no better MPG on my commute unless I drive like a very old granny than did my Seat Ibiza 1.4 (granted one is a cheap horrible car and the other is a bit more expensive horrible car). On a straight motorway run, yes it does. Service intervals are wide, but I live in fear of the inlet manifold or dual mass flywheel going. I was reading somewhere that the seemingly quite respected Honest John bloke (motoring columnist?) has been warning of the repair costs of modern diesels for some time. I haven't read his warnings, but did read that :lol:.
It seems to me that all modern diesels are essentially reliable, but when one goes bad it can be from most makes and a lot of pain.
Is this also the case with smaller diesels?
Personally, I have been looking for a small car for my wife, and think really petrol is still the way to go with the recent improvements in MPG (at the expense of performance).

[G]

Well, rightly or wrongly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, most of mine come from my own experience of from talking to car owners.

Personally, I still prefer the way a petrol car drives too.

Lastly :
http://www.parkers.co.uk/News/Motoring-Costs/Petrol-vs-Diesel-calculator/

That article is old... And it's only reference to petrol v diesel is in in relation to the cost to fuel when diesel WAS 30p more than petrol making it pointless. That's not the case any more.

I appreciate your opinions rightly or wrongly... Such as the way they drive, that is an opinion.

But your wrong on all other account such as tax, emmisions and servicing. You state you have an 8 year old 4x4 petrol gaz guzzler I imagine it falls into the £480 a year to tax bracket at the very least, I'm sure it get less than 30mpg and it emmisions will probably be over 330g of co2.

To put it into context my dirty (it's not), smelly (it doesn't actually), smokey (not one bit) diesel fiesta gives out 105g co2 (5g off being tax exempt and only 6g more than a prius) can achieve 78mpg and costs £35 a year to tax.

I think owning the same uneconomcal, high emission petrol 4x4 for 8 years you are probably slightly out of touch with the reality of modern day cars and the options available. So your opinions from your experience could be considered limited, I would wager the people your talking too have blinkered views too. I've had 8 cars in that time and have looked into it alot... Almost to geek levels.

[thefallenangel]

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/petrol-vs-diesel/?deriv=43961#manu=8219&model=1405&deriv=43961

no tax costs included in that either.

[G]

My 1.9 TiD SAAB does no better MPG on my commute unless I drive like a very old granny than did my Seat Ibiza 1.4 (granted one is a cheap horrible car and the other is a bit more expensive horrible car). On a straight motorway run, yes it does. Service intervals are wide, but I live in fear of the inlet manifold or dual mass flywheel going. I was reading somewhere that the seemingly quite respected Honest John bloke (motoring columnist?) has been warning of the repair costs of modern diesels for some time. I haven't read his warnings, but did read that :lol:.
It seems to me that all modern diesels are essentially reliable, but when one goes bad it can be from most makes and a lot of pain.
Is this also the case with smaller diesels?
Personally, I have been looking for a small car for my wife, and think really petrol is still the way to go with the recent improvements in MPG (at the expense of performance).

The Saab/renault 1.9tid/dci was a shared engine and the early 2001 - 2004 engine failed on an epic scale. I had a 2002 1.9 dci laguna which had dual mass flywheel problems and turbo/egr valve problems. Renault and Saab admitted it was a design issue rather than technology. There is loads on google about it.

[The Basket]

A Small Diesel...such as the C3...as mentioned...

Makes more sense than a Prius....in terms of greenery.

The concept that a Citroen C1 Diesel will work out more expensive than a 4x4 petrol boggles the old brainbox...Ever had to buy tyres for a 4x4...

[Miss_Undaztood]

My 1.9 TiD SAAB does no better MPG on my commute unless I drive like a very old granny than did my Seat Ibiza 1.4 (granted one is a cheap horrible car and the other is a bit more expensive horrible car). On a straight motorway run, yes it does. Service intervals are wide, but I live in fear of the inlet manifold or dual mass flywheel going. I was reading somewhere that the seemingly quite respected Honest John bloke (motoring columnist?) has been warning of the repair costs of modern diesels for some time. I haven't read his warnings, but did read that :lol:.
It seems to me that all modern diesels are essentially reliable, but when one goes bad it can be from most makes and a lot of pain.
Is this also the case with smaller diesels?
Personally, I have been looking for a small car for my wife, and think really petrol is still the way to go with the recent improvements in MPG (at the expense of performance).

Yeah I`ve heard of honest john, some good stuff on his site.
And yes i`ve seen the results of dual mass flywheels "letting go". Mostly on pugs tho. The clutch starts to feel different, then you get an almighty bang and the engine cuts out. When the flywheel disintegrates it takes the flywheel ( CAS ) sensor with it and the ECU has no clue whats happening. Then its new flywheel, new clutch and new sensor, plus labour. Fook dat, lol. Modern petrols possibly have dual mass flywheels to, but for some reason they seem to fail on diesels more.

[G]

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/petrol-vs-diesel/?deriv=43961#manu=8219&model=1405&deriv=43961

In that case I could break even in 3 to 6 months in that scenario at current fuel cost lol... I've just ironically got rid of a 1.2 Clio expression terrible gutless car compared to the diesel, bordered on dangerous contemplating the fast lane :p

[muffles]

/ignores all the stuff about diesels

My 3.5 year (and growing) experience of my '98 Ford Focus is that the quality design isn't very good. Just a general "why use 3 bolts to hold this on when 1 will do?" kind of attitude. Because it means you're screwed if that one bolt breaks or has issues! Grr. At least pattern parts are cheaper than I've ever seen before :lol:

[cb1000rsteve]

Service cost have never bothered me. My mate charges me £50 and it gets a dealer stamp. I've also never failed an MOT
Mates rates are best.

[G]

/ignores all the stuff about diesels

My 3.5 year (and growing) experience of my '98 Ford Focus is that the quality design isn't very good. Just a general "why use 3 bolts to hold this on when 1 will do?" kind of attitude. Because it means you're screwed if that one bolt breaks or has issues! Grr. At least pattern parts are cheaper than I've ever seen before :lol:

To be fair alot changes in 12 years :p

[cb1000rsteve]

Your Saab problem is it shares the engine with Vauxhall. Dual Mass fly wheel, swirl valves, EGR Valve, to name but a few. The older engine is more reliable. VX CDTi and Saab TiD have lots of problems

[Miss_Undaztood]

I imagine it falls into the £480 a year to tax bracket at the very least, I'm sure it get less than 30mpg and it emmisions will probably be over 330g of co2.

To put it into context my dirty (it's not), smelly (it doesn't actually), smokey (not one bit) diesel fiesta gives out 105g co2 (5g off being tax exempt and only 6g more than a prius) can achieve 78mpg and costs £35 a year to tax.

I think owning the same uneconomcal, high emission petrol 4x4 for 8 years you are probably slightly out of touch with the reality of modern day cars and the options available. So your opinions from your experience could be considered limited, I would wager the people your talking too have blinkered views too. I've had 8 cars in that time and have looked into it alot... Almost to geek levels.

Tax - £210
CO2 - 290
Mpg - 25

I didnt say your car was dirty or smokey, but it DOES smell, trust me diesels DO have a smell which I happen to not like. As ive said its like burning plastic. And you do see diesels getting smokey when they accelerate too, but how would the driver see from the drivers seat ?

All this talk of CO2 levels and how the Govt work out what to charge is crap anyway. An old retired guy drives a 4 Litre Jag and does 5000 miles a year but pays £480 road tax, then the rep with his 2 litre mundaneo does 30,000 miles a year and pays £100, or whatever. Who puts out more emissions in 1 year ?

Just because I haven`t bought a new car in 8 years doesn`t mean i have no interest, or opinion.

Although I do agree that driving style plays a lot in emissions, fuel economy and all that stuff too.

[thefallenangel]

Tax - £210
CO2 - 290
Mpg - 25

I didnt say your car was dirty or smokey, but it DOES smell, trust me diesels DO have a smell which I happen to not like. As ive said its like burning plastic. And you do see diesels getting smokey when they accelerate too, but how would the driver see from the drivers seat ?

All this talk of CO2 levels and how the Govt work out what to charge is crap anyway. An old retired guy drives a 4 Litre Jag and does 5000 miles a year but pays £480 road tax, then the rep with his 2 litre mundaneo does 30,000 miles a year and pays £100, or whatever. Who puts out more emissions in 1 year ?

Just because I haven`t bought a new car in 8 years doesn`t mean i have no interest, or opinion.

Although I do agree that driving style plays a lot in emissions, fuel economy and all that stuff too.


Without trackers you'll never measure mileage but at least by going on Co2 levels you get some control.

[Miss_Undaztood]

A Small Diesel...such as the C3...as mentioned...

Makes more sense than a Prius....in terms of greenery.

The concept that a Citroen C1 Diesel will work out more expensive than a 4x4 petrol boggles the old brainbox...Ever had to buy tyres for a 4x4...

Surely you would compare like for like, petrol C1 vs diesel C1, petrol 4x4 vs diesel 4x4 ? Or am I missing something ?

And yes, in 8 years I have bought tyres, I think they were 220 for 4 Dunlop A/T`s.

And yeah, Prius is a bit of a gimmick, you have to drive really careful to get much benefit, if any. So even I would rather have a small diesel in that case.

[Miss_Undaztood]

Without trackers you'll never measure mileage but at least by going on Co2 levels you get some control.

The only thing that emissions are directly related to is the amount of fuel you use.

[thefallenangel]

Surely you would compare like for like, petrol C1 vs diesel C1, petrol 4x4 vs diesel 4x4 ? Or am I missing something ?

And yes, in 8 years I have bought tyres, I think they were 220 for 4 Dunlop A/T`s.

And yeah, Prius is a bit of a gimmick, you have to drive really careful to get much benefit, if any. So even I would rather have a small diesel in that case.

Well any diesel TBH but the smaller cars seem to get a big benefit with the little to no tax, and silly high MPG.

[ravingdavis]

The only thing that emissions are directly related to is the amount of fuel you use.

Scrap road tax and increase fuel taxes?

[Miss_Undaztood]

Yeah the benefit of diesels is possibly greater with the smaller cars.
But I still stand by my first point to pick a car you like and work out the actual numbers based on your annual mileage.

[thefallenangel]

Yeah the benefit of diesels is possibly greater with the smaller cars.
But I still stand by my first point to pick a car you like and work out the actual numbers based on your annual mileage.


No i'd still say diesel over petrol unless you want it for sports usage.

[Sean_C]

Yeah the benefit of diesels is possibly greater with the smaller cars.
But I still stand by my first point to pick a car you like and work out the actual numbers based on your annual mileage.

Worked for me.
Pug 206. Petrol engine that'll get 40mpg on a good day, or 2.0 turbo diesel that does 50+ at (my) best and has never been lower than 43mpg.

[Miss_Undaztood]

Scrap road tax and increase fuel taxes?

Your half right.
Just scrap road tax full stop :)

I certainly don`t think we need taxed any more, look at the shocking state of the roads for one. All i`m saying is that the amount of fuel you use is directly related to the emissions emitted. Bigger engine, more miles, heavy foot = more fuel. Smaller engine, less miles, light foot = less fuel. Simples.

[thefallenangel]

would cripple haulage firms so no chance.

[embee]

A modern diesel power-unit with regulated pollutant control systems (EGR/particulate trap etc) is more expensive to manufacture than a comparable performance petrol power unit, fact.

The real world fuel economy benefit of comparable performance models is of the order of 20% in favour of the diesel. If we're considering cars doing around 10 miles/litre = 45mpg, and the typical oncost of a diesel is around £1k purchase price, using round figures you need to be using around 5000 litres of fuel to save 1000 litres or £1200, so that's in the region of 50k miles to break even. If you're doing high mileages it will pay back, if you do modest mileages you'll be lucky to save money.

You may well prefer the feel of a larger diesel engine (e.g. 1.25 petrol compares with a 1.4 or even 1.6 TD), and yes a diesel is a more thermally efficient engine particularly at light loads, but economics of ownership is a complex issue.

[Miss_Undaztood]

A modern diesel power-unit with regulated pollutant control systems (EGR/particulate trap etc) is more expensive to manufacture than a comparable performance petrol power unit, fact.

The real world fuel economy benefit of comparable performance models is of the order of 20% in favour of the diesel. If we're considering cars doing around 10 miles/litre = 45mpg, and the typical oncost of a diesel is around £1k purchase price, using round figures you need to be using around 5000 litres of fuel to save 1000 litres or £1200, so that's in the region of 50k miles to break even. If you're doing high mileages it will pay back, if you do modest mileages you'll be lucky to save money.

You may well prefer the feel of a larger diesel engine (e.g. 1.25 petrol compares with a 1.4 or even 1.6 TD), and yes a diesel is a more thermally efficient engine particularly at light loads, but economics of ownership is a complex issue.

Exactly, what he said :)

Oh! cool signature ;)

[The Basket]

I was on a Citroën thread and talking about the old 2CV.

When is a car a car? A 2CV is still better than the bus queue.

I do believe that small cars with small engines are the way the car evolves in the future.

I know a guy with a V12 Jag which he got for virtually nothing...and he only drives it for giggles. The price of petrol means its for show.

If the price of petrol goes crazy and/or we start getting taxed off the roads then small diesels are going to be very attractive...tractor sounds included.

[cb1000rsteve]

On petrol vs diesel tax cost etc. I was running a Fiesta Petrol 1.4 cost about £250 year to insure and tax at the time was £138. I averaged between 40-45 mpg. So i sold it and bought a Vectra 2.0 DTi that was 2 years older. I ended up with an extra £3400 in my pocket the Vec cost £289 to insure for the year, same tax band but returned 45-50mpg's. The only down side was the £3400 went on the wedding LOL!!!

[timwilky]

I have had two diesel cars in recent years. A mondao 2.0 TDCI which let me down 3 times with the engine dropping into safe mode finally requiring a replacement injector. My current 1.9 tdci on the vectra has been rock solid but with terrible turbo lag (Not good for the SRI image when it hesitates every time you put the foot down, pity the rest of the car is a big pile of poo and will stop me ever getting another vauxhall.

[LK-SV]

Very late on to this thread ..... but small diesels aren't the future ..... but small (turbo and supercharged) petrols are ;)

[muffles]

To be fair alot changes in 12 years :p

Lol, true. Although I think the Focus is considered one of the 'new breed' of Fords that aren't supposed to be the classic Fix-Or-Repair-Daily specials :lol:

My mum's recently got a 56 plate Fiesta so I'll take a peek at that and see if it looks any better built lol.

Unfortunately I'm not as confident as I should be...12 years isn't that long in the history of car-making, and my old '87 E30 BMW was so much better built than the Focus it's almost unbelievable...one thing I am happy about (this kinda applies to all manufacturer these days though) is that they seem to have sorted out the terminal rust problems cars used to get much more regularly a decade ago.

[Stig]

1.5 Diesel Pug. 65mpg. I chuck the cheapest tyres I can find on it. Insurance for me is costly but that's because I have a bad licence and it's the first car I have had to insure for nearly 20 years.

[yorkie_chris]

Fair comment I don't know what you drive, but on my Nissan service intervals are the same on the petrol models. Injectors don't last as long as what? spark plugs? :rolleyes: The fuel pump (more accurately compressor) may wear, but I've never had one start to go at less than 150K miles, plenty of petrol cars are on new fuel pumps at that stage. And any turbo'd car, petrol or diesel, if the turbo lets go it can be big money (waits for a rant from Ralph about BMW turbos 8-[).

I'm not having a pop, just I don't think the 'expensive to service' argument stands up.

+1

However it is a fuel pump, fuel is as near to incompressible as makes no difference.

[Stig]

I specifically went looking for the most basic diesel engine I could find. No worries about turbo's or anything else.

Mine has done 135k miles and with the timing belt just changed, I expect it to roll past 200k easy.

[Stu]

Scrap road tax and increase fuel taxes?
In theory it is correct as it is. Comparing the old jag doing a low mileage to a high mileage fuel efficient car. the Jag is being wasteful* of the resources of fuel & the emissions it produces so it should be taxed higher than simply the use of fuel.

*it is obviously a luxury to the consumer so is more correct to be taxed on it than a necessity (of having to drive far but you chose the most fuel efficient vehicle).

[Gabriel2k]

Fiat Panda 1.3 Turbo Diesel here.....£35 a year road tax and 70 mpg, not that slow either!

[Sir Trev]

Very late on to this thread ..... but small diesels aren't the future ..... but small (turbo and supercharged) petrols are ;)

Being slightly anal in the way I compare things like this I have a big spreadsheet detailing my driving miles and situation witha huge range of cars on it. Got to agree the small petrol argument is gaining strength for me.

I too hate the way diseaseals drive and have noticed that the new 1.4T petrol units from vauxhall and VW are not far off the emmissions of a 1.9/2.0 TD unit, which is good for the tax I pay on my fuel card. They are also much cheaper to insure. They are allegedly as good to drive as a normally aspirated 1.8 petrol unit and in something the size of a Golf/Astra/Focus will be fine for general use. In a Polo/Corsa/Fiesta they'd be a hoot.

I'll be test driving the new shape Astra estate when it (hopefully) comes out later this year with a 1.4T petrol engine. I need to replace my trusty eight year old 1.6 Astra petrol at some point soon due to the miles I do. I'll try the (also new to the Astra) 2.0TD 160hp unit for comparison though...

[carternd]

With a greater need for arable land to produce food for a growing world population, growing bio-diesel just takes too much land to become a viable alternative.

That is a fair point, I'd have thought that farming developments will make some difference. The same probably applies to petrol alternatives as well. Since oil is running out, welcome to the transport of the future.

Zero MPG, comparable load space to Yaris. London to Brighton in a (very long) day!

[ravingdavis]

That is a fair point, I'd have thought that farming developments will make some difference. The same probably applies to petrol alternatives as well. Since oil is running out, welcome to the transport of the future.

Zero MPG, comparable load space to Yaris. London to Brighton in a (very long) day!

Hydrogen fuel cells and a nuclear power source to create them! Low carbon at generation at least.

[Daimo]

I want a Corsa B, but remove the engine and put one of the new generation 1.9 CDTi engines in it, with remap.

200bhp, 300lb ft, in a car weighing about 950kg.

Mega fun.

For comparison, the other halfs Petrol 2.0 turbo corsa with 210bhp and about 240lb ft, is quick enough to leave an E46 M3 ;) Frequently....

Performance, and economy.

Problem is the engine management won't suit so would need a completly custom ECU :( Muchos dollarz

[LK-SV]

I want a Corsa B, but remove the engine and put one of the new generation 1.9 CDTi engines in it, with remap.

200bhp, 300lb ft, in a car weighing about 950kg.

Mega fun.

For comparison, the other halfs Petrol 2.0 turbo corsa with 210bhp and about 240lb ft, is quick enough to leave an E46 M3 ;) Frequently....

Performance, and economy.

Problem is the engine management won't suit so would need a completly custom ECU :( Muchos dollarz

Hells bells ... I wouldn't care if it was faster than a Veyron, and you got paid to drive it .... you wouldn't catch me in a Corsa - let alone a chav' up Corsa :o

[Daimo]

Well that depends if your a snob or not, and the quality of the car.

If its some chav'd up (please expand on chav'd up, or are you branding anyone with a modified car a chav?) car, stupid kit that doesn't suit the car, stupid stickers and 6x9's, sure.....

If it was in a shell like my other halfs, or my old car, then no not at all. Im not a snob.

And to be fair, whats the difference from driving the bottom end of the car list, opposed to riding a bike thats at the bottom end of the list??

Branding, being done in the UK since 0AD.

[G]

I have a friend with a 380bhp c20let in the pug 306. The thing is rediculous.

[Daimo]

He's still got it then :D

[BanditPat]

And any turbo'd car, petrol or diesel, if the turbo lets go it can be big money (waits for a rant from Ralph about BMW turbos 8-[).



Turbo's can be made out or jafa cakes twigs and gaffa tape so that argument is irrelevant

[LK-SV]

Well that depends if your a snob or not, and the quality of the car.

If its some chav'd up (please expand on chav'd up, or are you branding anyone with a modified car a chav?) car, stupid kit that doesn't suit the car, stupid stickers and 6x9's, sure.....

If it was in a shell like my other halfs, or my old car, then no not at all. Im not a snob.

And to be fair, whats the difference from driving the bottom end of the car list, opposed to riding a bike thats at the bottom end of the list??

Branding, being done in the UK since 0AD.

*gets wooden spoon out*

Call me a snob if you like .... but I'll stick to my Audi's, BMW's and Lotus' ..... :o

Its what makes you feel good that's important .... you might feel good driving around the ring road in a fast Corsa (normally very slowely because its been lowered, and the ride is horrendous) ......last weekend I couldn't have felt better driving around Cornwall in a 2009 BMW 3 series convertible .... :)

SV's and ER6's, etc aren't low end bikes anyway ...... got to be mid-range

Corsa, Fiesta, etc ....... 125's - 250's - Scooters ....
VW, Audi, BMW, etc ..... SV's - ER6's etc ...
Porsche, Aston, etc ..... Truimphs, GS's ...(kinda)
Ferrari, Lambo's ...... Ducati, high end Triumphs, BMW's etc

[Miss_Undaztood]

Call me a snob if you like .... but I'll stick to my Audi's, BMW's and Lotus' ..... :o

.....last weekend I couldn't have felt better driving around Cornwall in a 2009 BMW 3 series convertible .... :)


Posh git. Banker ? ;)

:)

[LK-SV]

I'd love to answer ... but I can't concentrate for your avatar !! :-)

[Miss_Undaztood]

I'd love to answer ... but I can't concentrate for your avatar !! :-)

You like my pussy ? :)

Actually its not mine. Neither are the boobages :( *sigh*

[LK-SV]

*sigh*

+1 :(

[Miss_Undaztood]

One day tho, hopefully sooner rather than later :)

(You could always sell your Git-Mobile and buy me tittage :) You can keep the pussy tho. :) )

[Daimo]

*gets wooden spoon out*

Call me a snob if you like .... but I'll stick to my Audi's, BMW's and Lotus' ..... :o

Its what makes you feel good that's important .... you might feel good driving around the ring road in a fast Corsa (normally very slowely because its been lowered, and the ride is horrendous) ......last weekend I couldn't have felt better driving around Cornwall in a 2009 BMW 3 series convertible .... :)

SV's and ER6's, etc aren't low end bikes anyway ...... got to be mid-range

Corsa, Fiesta, etc ....... 125's - 250's - Scooters ....
VW, Audi, BMW, etc ..... SV's - ER6's etc ...
Porsche, Aston, etc ..... Truimphs, GS's ...(kinda)
Ferrari, Lambo's ...... Ducati, high end Triumphs, BMW's etc

Audi - Had recovery for any electrical issues yet? Most commen marque callout..
BMW - Found the indicator stalk yet? And the mirrors, and worked out how to use the inside lane ;)

Slow? :lol: Ok, seriously, when a mildy fettled engine will produce some rediculas 40-140mph times, i'd think otherwise. Say nothing that you don't know about :thumbsup:

TBH, I enjoy driving our Astra VXR, and I loved my SV, but then im not a snob. I find driving our Mercs, Audis and BMW's comfy, but quite plain, badge whoar worthy but expensive over-rated unless you have the top of the range models. I do hope your BMW is a M model.

You stick with your BMW and bike, and i'll stick with our VXR, budget suzuki, and stunning Italian bike.

I admit there are a lot of boyracers and real neds that drive them about and ruin the reputation of modified cars, but try not to tarnish all with the same brush. There are a lot of very VERY clean examples, highly tuned and modified and restored that would put shame to a lot of expensive sports cars. There is also the huge social aspect, the enjoyment of making something far better, and the hobby side that makes it all worthwhile.

My old one was tastefully done using all of Vauxhall/Stienmetz add ons (same as AC Snitzer for BMW), but my other halfs is totally her own design, unique, not driven like a boyracer on acid, had a lot spent on, and had a lot of fun doing.

Stop being snobbish, open your mind a little. Lifes more fun.

[yorkie_chris]

FWD shopping trolleys on speed. I don't see the fuss.

Would rather have some old mk2 escort or something, sure you bankrupt yourself buying welding rods to hold it together but they are a proper fookin hoot.

[zachl]

i bought a 52-plate ibiza tdi 130, and had it remapped,

175bhp. 300 ft/lbs or torque, goes like stink and average 60 mpg

its not a poser car but suits me fine :)

[The Basket]

To me a car is a form of transport.

The cheaper the better.

[thefallenangel]

To me a car is a form of transport.

The cheaper the better.

coorect.

[LK-SV]

Audi - Had recovery for any electrical issues yet? Most commen marque callout..
BMW - Found the indicator stalk yet? And the mirrors, and worked out how to use the inside lane ;)

Slow? :lol: Ok, seriously, when a mildy fettled engine will produce some rediculas 40-140mph times, i'd think otherwise. Say nothing that you don't know about :thumbsup:

TBH, I enjoy driving our Astra VXR, and I loved my SV, but then im not a snob. I find driving our Mercs, Audis and BMW's comfy, but quite plain, badge whoar worthy but expensive over-rated unless you have the top of the range models. I do hope your BMW is a M model.

You stick with your BMW and bike, and i'll stick with our VXR, budget suzuki, and stunning Italian bike.

I admit there are a lot of boyracers and real neds that drive them about and ruin the reputation of modified cars, but try not to tarnish all with the same brush. There are a lot of very VERY clean examples, highly tuned and modified and restored that would put shame to a lot of expensive sports cars. There is also the huge social aspect, the enjoyment of making something far better, and the hobby side that makes it all worthwhile.

My old one was tastefully done using all of Vauxhall/Stienmetz add ons (same as AC Snitzer for BMW), but my other halfs is totally her own design, unique, not driven like a boyracer on acid, had a lot spent on, and had a lot of fun doing.

Stop being snobbish, open your mind a little. Lifes more fun.

LOL .... only winding you up fella ... I'm not a car snob ..... I just enjoy driving, and in many ways my best drives have been thrashing a cheap hire car along ... in particular I remember a Renault Clio 1.2 that was a blast ... doesn't always matter what it is ...

I can't even remember how this started now ....

The Germans aren't all they are cracked up to be in the fun stakes for sure .... nor reliabilty ....my TT was probably the most unreliable car I've had, and my Lotus the best !! Even my Alfa Romeo never let me down....

I can't see me buying another VAG product .... but the BMW is very impressive TBH .... but with my sensible hat on - you can't beat the handling of a humble Ford Focus ...... its whatever floats your boat ....but for a number of reasons, including saftey (airbags, etc), I'd rather buy a newer car than an older one ...