Driving a Manual on an Auto Licence

[CheGuevara]

A bit of background:

I swapped my Canadian licence for a UK licence a little over a year ago. Because I wasn't able to prove that I had taken my test (way back in 1986) on a manual and had been driving one incident-free for 23 years since, I've been stuck drivng an auto (full UK licence with restriction code 78).

Anyhow, my question: Until I get around to taking the manual test, under what circumstances am I allowed to drive a manual for the purpose of "practicing"? For example, am I OK if my wife (who holds a manual licence) is in the car with me? (I don't actually need practice, but it'd be handy if I could drive her car when we're out)

I've tried ringing the DVLA who didn't have an answer, and they've tried to pass me off to the DSA, but they're not open on the weekend.

As an aside- The whole concept of having to test on a manual seems a little pointless: If you're unable to drive a manual, then surely by default you're not going to get very far down the road. Also they've let me keep my motorcycle entitlement, so why not recognise that I understand how to operate a clutch and gearbox? :rolleyes:

[Woz]

Your auto licence should give you provisional entitlement to drive a manual in which case, as long as you have a suitably qualified accompanying driver (ie, your wife has held her licence for more than 3 years and is over 21) AND you display L plates, then you will be ok.

Edit... AND you inform the insurance company that you are driving with a provisional licence.

[christopher]

Not 100% on this, but as far as I know your automatic licence acts as a provisional manual licence, so if you displayed L-plates and have someone in the car who's 21 or older with a manual licence held for 3 years or more you'll be fine.

[the_lone_wolf]

I think your full auto license is also your provisional manual license, so you must adhere to the restrictions of a learner driver if you are driving a manual, ie:

L plates front and rear
Supervised by someone over 21 who has held a full manual license for 3+ yrs
Not allowed to drive on the motorway

unless they've changed the L regs lately?

[the_lone_wolf]

That'll teach me to start replying before going and researching...:rolleyes:

:D

[Woz]

Oh yeah, before you take a manual test, get some lessons.

Being able to drive without incident (even with 23 years experience) and being able to pass the test, are two very different things.

Woz
Approved Driving Instructor who sees this kind of thing all the time.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Yep, confirming the above.

Just make sure you let your insurance know that you are driving that car on a provisional licence.

[CheGuevara]

Thanks guys. Any idea if I'd have to notify the insurance company if the vehicle is already insured in my name (my wife is the named driver on the car)? I can just imagine confusing them and making things worse...

Odd about no motorway -the one place you'd be doing the least amount of shifting gears :rolleyes:

I suppose I should just make time to take the test and avoid the hassle.

[the_lone_wolf]

Thanks guys. Any idea if I'd have to notify the insurance company if the vehicle is already insured in my name (my wife is the named driver on the car)? I can just imagine confusing them and making things worse...

You have an auto license but have a manual car insured in your name?

I thought Ins companies generally require you to have a license to drive the category of vehicle you're insuring...

[CheGuevara]

Being able to drive without incident (even with 23 years experience) and being able to pass the test, are two very different things.

Yeah I've planned to do this as I'm aware of some odd standards (parking brake while stopped, and crossing hands while steering) that I'd hate to get caught out on.

Whaddya think would happen if I double-clutched and heel-toed my way through the exam? :)

[Milky Bar Kid]

Thanks guys. Any idea if I'd have to notify the insurance company if the vehicle is already insured in my name (my wife is the named driver on the car)? I can just imagine confusing them and making things worse...

Odd about no motorway -the one place you'd be doing the least amount of shifting gears :rolleyes:

I suppose I should just make time to take the test and avoid the hassle.

Erm, you shouldn't have that vehicle insured in your name without the insurance company knowing you only hold provisional entitlement for that vehicle....

[CheGuevara]

You have an auto license but have a manual car insured in your name?

I thought Ins companies generally require you to have a license to drive the category of vehicle you're insuring...

Yup. My wife drives the car which is in my name and insured by me (with her as a named driver), I drive a Hilux Surf with an auto trans. They even gave me full no-claims as I sent them a copy of my Canadian driving abstract.

The Hilux is a pig on diesel though, so I'm starting to put more thought to driving the car when I can.

[Woz]

(parking brake while stopped, and crossing hands while steering)

These are actually two of the things that they are becoming more relaxed about as long as control is not compromised.

The thing that most 'experienced' drivers (even if they also ride) fail on is observation.

[the_lone_wolf]

Yup. My wife drives the car which is in my name and insured by me (with her as a named driver), I drive a Hilux Surf with an auto trans. They even gave me full no-claims as I sent them a copy of my Canadian driving abstract.
Are you insuring it with your Canadian or English license? If they've accepted your Canadian license but it's no longer valid in the UK they probably won't insure a vehicle in your name that you don't have a license to drive...

Also, if it's insured in your name with your wife as a named driver you may be, inadvertently perhaps, fronting - if you don't drive the car you should have your wife as the main driver. Is the cost of insuring your wife in her own name significantly more than with her as a named driver?

[Milky Bar Kid]

Dude, you need to tell them you are on a provisional. If something were to happen then they might not cover you.

[CheGuevara]

Are you insuring it with your Canadian or English license? If they've accepted your Canadian license but it's no longer valid in the UK they probably won't insure a vehicle in your name that you don't have a license to drive...

Also, if it's insured in your name with your wife as a named driver you may be, inadvertently perhaps, fronting - if you don't drive the car you should have your wife as the main driver. Is the cost of insuring your wife in her own name significantly more than with her as a named driver?

When I bought the car I was still on my Canadian licence (only just) -the insurance has since been renewed (same company) and they're aware that I'm now on a UK licence, and I did mention to them that my wife would be the primary driver. I've always intended to get the test done - just haven't found time, so there has been no intent to deceive the insurance company.

Insuring under her name -it's a 1.7L Civic Coupe and she's not quite 25 yet, so yeah it'd be pretty expensive. At the end of this month she can drive the Hilux, so once I get my licence sorted the usage will be more evenly split.

[CheGuevara]

Dude, you need to tell them you are on a provisional. If something were to happen then they might not cover you.

Noted thanks. They were informed when I re-insured though that my licence had switched to UK with the automatic restriction. They didn't seem too concerned.

[the_lone_wolf]

When I bought the car I was still on my Canadian licence (only just) -the insurance has since been renewed and they're aware that I'm now on a UK licence, and I did mention to them that my wfe would be the primary driver. I've always intended to get the test done - just haven't found time, so there has been no intent to deceive the insurance company.

Intent doesn't really come into it - if your missus has a smash, or even if someone hits her, it'll set off alarm bells at insurance HQ because she's a young named driver on someone else's policy - if they decide to dig their heels in it won't be hard to show that you haven't been using the car when you can't produce a valid license. If you're missus is the main driver she should be insured as the main driver, or you could find yourself in a mess when you try and claim


That's ignoring the issue that you should have informed your ins provider when your position changed and you were no longer licensed to drive the vehicle you're insuring, did you specifically tell them you have a provisional UK license? If not they're going to be basing their cover on you have a full license to drive the vehicle you're insuring, when you don't:eek:

[CheGuevara]

That's ignoring the issue that you should have informed your ins provider when your position changed and you were no longer licensed to drive the vehicle you're insuring, did you specifically tell them you have a provisional UK license? If not they're going to be basing their cover on you have a full license to drive the vehicle you're insuring, when you don't:eek:

Perhaps my terminology might not be right, but they were advised she would be the primary driver and on renewal that my licence had changed to UK and now has the auto-restriction.

[CheGuevara]

Just to add to the confusion. My licence isn't actually printed with a code 78, although it should be (an error on the part of the DVLA). I discovered this mistake last week when comparing licences with a fellow Canuck (I have "70CDN" and he has "78-70CDN"). I've rung the DVLA and they advise that I have to send it back with a covering letter and then hope they don't make it worse (like lose my motorcycle entitlement) while making corrections.

[the_lone_wolf]

Perhaps my terminology might not be right, but they were advised she would be the primary driver and on renewal that my licence had changed to UK and now has the auto-restriction.

Are they a specialist company?

Fair enough you've spoken to them, did they not say anything when you told them your license didn't allow you to drive the vehicle you were insuring??:confused:

I just can't see any mainstream insurance company insuring someone in a vehicle they're not licensed to drive, and allowing them to add a higher risk named driver who will be the sole user of the vehicle...

[CheGuevara]

Are they a specialist company?

Fair enough you've spoken to them, did they not say anything when you told them your license didn't allow you to drive the vehicle you were insuring??:confused:

I just can't see any mainstream insurance company insuring someone in a vehicle they're not licensed to drive, and allowing them to add a higher risk named driver who will be the sole user of the vehicle...

Nope -like I say they weren't too fussed -maybe because it was a renewal, and I was legal to drive it when I started the policy?

Anyhow given the info on here I'll book my exam come Monday morning and ring the insurance company to confirm the details, just to be sure.

[madcockney]

Maybe this is a bit like company vehicle insurance where the company has the insurance, but they have to make sure that anyone that drives their vehicles have the proper licence and in the correct insurer specified age group, etc.

[the_lone_wolf]

Nope -like I say they weren't too fussed -maybe because it was a renewal, and I was legal to drive it when I started the policy?

The policy is renewed every year, as is the contract you enter - if something material to the policy has changed it's up to you to tell them when you renew, as they simply assume nothing has changed when they offer you a renewal quote. It sounds like you've told them but it doesn't sound right to me:confused:

Hope it all gets sorted mate, definitely phone them and if they are happy to provide cover definitely get it in writing:cool:

[CheGuevara]

The policy is renewed every year, as is the contract you enter - if something material to the policy has changed it's up to you to tell them when you renew, as they simply assume nothing has changed when they offer you a renewal quote. It sounds like you've told them but it doesn't sound right to me:confused:

Could be I just got an idiot on the other end of the phone :)

[the_lone_wolf]

Could be I just got an idiot on the other end of the phone :)

If they didn't twig at the time and it all came to light in the event of a claim they'd probably say it should have been obvious that if your license wasn't valid for the vehicle you couldn't insure it and try to refuse the claim...:(

Let us know what they say, I'm intrigued now...

[thefallenangel]

for the cost is it not easier just to stay on an auto license.

[CheGuevara]

for the cost is it not easier just to stay on an auto license.

What cost aside from that of taking the exam? I get 20mpg out of my diesel truck-that's costing me a small fortune to run.

[yorkie_chris]

Just to add to the confusion. My licence isn't actually printed with a code 78, although it should be (an error on the part of the DVLA). I discovered this mistake last week when comparing licences with a fellow Canuck (I have "70CDN" and he has "78-70CDN"). I've rung the DVLA and they advise that I have to send it back with a covering letter and then hope they don't make it worse (like lose my motorcycle entitlement) while making corrections.

So you've got it in writing that you've got a proper license? Can these f*ckups work in your favour?

[CheGuevara]

So you've got it in writing that you've got a proper license? Can these f*ckups work in your favour?

I suspect it *might* work in my favour, but I'd rather not risk it, and just get it sorted out. If I had an accident driving a manual and the insurance company inquired beyond just noting that my paper and plastic licence stated that I was OK, they would see that the DVLA has no documentation that I've passed (or shown evidence that I've passed) a manual test.

[Stu]

Just to add to the confusion. My licence isn't actually printed with a code 78, although it should be (an error on the part of the DVLA). I discovered this mistake last week when comparing licences with a fellow Canuck (I have "70CDN" and he has "78-70CDN"). I've rung the DVLA and they advise that I have to send it back with a covering letter and then hope they don't make it worse (like lose my motorcycle entitlement) while making corrections.
Mate!!!!!
Do not send off your licence and do not take the exam and do not tell your insurance company anything.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_10022623

Code 70 is an exchange of licence you do not have an Auto restriction, you have a full licence in your hands don't **** it up, go and drive your manual car, on your own, on the motorway, with no L plates.

[Stu]

they would see that the DVLA has no documentation that I've passed (or shown evidence that I've passed) a manual test.
And the DVLA have no evidence that you passed a test in an auto.
As long as you haven't forged your licence, what it says is what you can do.

[CheGuevara]

And the DVLA have no evidence that you passed a test in an auto.
As long as you haven't forged your licence, what it says is what you can do.

Not quite -they do have record that I've handed over my Canadian licence in exchange for my UK licence. When I rang the DVLA she confirmed that their records didn't show documentation/evidence of me having passed the manual licence.

The licence does state "70CDN" which means it's a foreign -exchanged licence originating from Canada. It doesn't take much effort to discover (it's on the direct.gov website) that this means I'm not entitled to drive a manual until I've passed the test here.

Even if I did have a reasonable chance of getting away with it, the £50 and a few hours of my time to take the test are a small price to pay for ensuring that I don't get stuck with a bill for thousands (or maybe tens or hundreds of thousands if I injured or killed another person in an accident). Just not worth the risk when I'm confident I can pass the test.

[CheGuevara]

From the Direct.gov site:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DrivingInGbOnAForeignLicence/DG_4022562
Canadian licences

If you are the holder of a Canadian licence you will receive automatic transmission only when exchanging for a British licence. This can only be upgraded to manual upon presentation of confirmation, from the relevant licensing authority, of a manual test being passed or a manual test is passed in this country.

[Jabba]

@Che

You now have a UK photocard licence, yes? Check on the rear to ensure that you actually do have provisional entitlement to drive a manual.

The govt have tightened up on this stuff during the last 10 years or so and entitlements that used to be automatic (e.g. towing trailers, driving mini-buses over a certain seating capacity, provisional motorbike entitlement, driving track-laying vehicles, etc) are not automatic any longer. As is the way with so many things now, they have to be applied for.

[CheGuevara]

@Che

You now have a UK photocard licence, yes? Check on the rear to ensure that you actually do have provisional entitlement to drive a manual.

The govt have tightened up on this stuff during the last 10 years or so and entitlements that used to be automatic (e.g. towing trailers, driving mini-buses over a certain seating capacity, provisional motorbike entitlement, driving track-laying vehicles, etc) are not automatic any longer. As is the way with so many things now, they have to be applied for.

I have the following (category : code):

A : 70CDN
B : 70CDN
BE : 70 CDN
B1 :
fkp :
115 (organ donor I think)

[-Ralph-]

From the Direct.gov site:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DrivingInGbOnAForeignLicence/DG_4022562
Canadian licences

If you are the holder of a Canadian licence you will receive automatic transmission only when exchanging for a British licence. This can only be upgraded to manual upon presentation of confirmation, from the relevant licensing authority, of a manual test being passed or a manual test is passed in this country.

This is just an opinion. I am no expert on these matters and whether you listen to or act on this is entirely up to you..

The directgov link you posted tells you what you should have been given (past tense) when swapping your Canadian license, but that doesn't seem to be what you have been given.

If you have (present tense) a license that entitles you to drive a manual, then you are entitled to drive a manual, regardless of whether or not the DVLA messed up when they gave you the license.

Whoever processed it at the DVLA probably didn't check the rules for a Canadian licence.

The DVLA records are not good (hence loosing motorcycle entitlement, etc), so the very fact you have a manual license code means the DVLA will assume that you have presented proof of having completed a manual test at some time in the past otherwise you COULDN'T have got it (their processes are infallible you see!). If they can't find any record of you having done so, that won't be a surprise to them either, they can't find any record of bikers having passed their tests when they complain about loosing motorcycle entitlement. If you now send them proof of completing a manual test, I would bet the bottle of malt I'm drinking here, that there will be confusion and you'll need to make 100 phone calls to clear it up, "why have you sent us proof of passing your manual test? You already have a manual entitlement" (Computer doesn't lie!)

If the police or an insurance company wants to cross reference your license card and counterpart, they'll phone up and ask the DVLA if you have a manual license, the clerk at the other end of the phone will look up your record on the computer and reply, "yes, he has" the clerk won't think "hang on, that's a canadian license, did we **** up and give him manual entitlement by mistake? Maybe I'd better look for proof of him passing a manual test"

[CheGuevara]

This is just an opinion. I am no expert on these matters and whether you listen to or act on this is entirely up to you..

You might be right, and getting it sorted might be a hassle, but would you gamble your livleihood on it, or that of your wife or family as a result of being wrong?

My suspicion is that it's just an error -somebody slipped up while inputting the data. That doesn't make me legal -it doesn't change the law.

[yorkie_chris]

That doesn't make me legal -it doesn't change the law.

I dunno, doesn't the law say "in possession of a valid license"?

[CheGuevara]

I dunno, doesn't the law say "in possession of a valid license"?


So your advice is that I should risk it to save £50 and a few hours? :confused: I think I'll just do the test and not try my luck on this one :)

[yorkie_chris]

Your choice TBH, though I'm with ralph in thinking there will be all manner of confusion.

[carternd]

So your advice is that I should risk it to save £50 and a few hours? :confused: I think I'll just do the test and not try my luck on this one :)

Full credit for your honesty, I would just say: "valid licence - can drive - whatever." if you can afford it, and it worries you that much just have a few lessons and do the test! It puts your mind at ease.

[-Ralph-]

You might be right, and getting it sorted might be a hassle, but would you gamble your livleihood on it, or that of your wife or family as a result of being wrong?

No I wouldn't gamble my livelihood or anything else important on it, but I'm not sure if I were in your circumstance I would be gambling that much. My wife and family certainly don't rely on my having a legal driving license. In terms of livelihood, paperwork would say I was legal, my insurance company would accept it, the fleet management company that handles things at work would accept it, and the police would accept it.

You could even phone the DVLA and ask for clarification that you are entitled to drive a manual, get the name of whoever it is you speak to and drop them an email confirming the details of the conversation, asking them to reply so you have written confirmation. If you get it you are covered and that is the end of the story. Nobody can come back to you later and say you shouldn't have been driving a manual, you are acting in good faith under the advice of the DVLA. ;)

If it all went Pete tong one day I would plead ignorance because I had checked the entitlement written on my license, had verified it with DVLA, then go off and do the test to rectify the situation. Work are not going to sack me in that scenario, they'd scratch their heads and say, Oh ****, we'll need to pay trains and taxi's for a month or so and you need to do that test ASAP.

So your advice is that I should risk it to save £50 and a few hours? :confused: I think I'll just do the test and not try my luck on this one :)

Like I said, everything I type here is only an opinion, knowing how good we are at creating public bureaucracy in this country, but knowing how crap we are at managing it, that's what I'd do, BUT if doing the test is what you are comfortable with doing, then that's what you should do. It is the RIGHT thing to do and nobody can criticise you for that.

If you did your motorcycle test in the UK then it may be £50 quid and a few hours, because I THINK the car driving test is less rigorous, at least when I did it years ago you were allowed more than one major fault and a lot more than three minors. Maybe just worth paying another £30 quid for a few hours with an instructor so you know what will score faults and what won't. If you didn't do your motorcycle test here, you may want a few more lessons than that.

Just be prepared for the fact it won't be as smooth as you might expect, 'cos you'll confuse the hell out of the DVLA. If you want to do the test, I'd phone them first and explain the whole thing and if they will allow you, get somebody's name as a central point to deal with who knows what is going on and why. Then when you get the test pass certificate, again if they will allow it, send it directly for their attention.

[yorkie_chris]

I would plead ignorance because I had checked the entitlement written on my license, had verified it with DVLA, then go off and do the test to rectify the situation.

Plus you can say, well I did a manual test all those years ago over here, I presumed their infallible computer remembered :)

[-Ralph-]

Plus you can say, well I did a manual test all those years ago over here, I presumed their infallible computer remembered :)

Good point. I'd be phoning them and telling them that I bought a automatic car when I moved here, because I was on a Canadian licence, then did a manual test, but I don't remember ever hearing anything back when I sent off the certificate. I now want to buy a manual car, I have the right entitlement on my license, but I want to be 100% sure it's all sorted and I'm properly licensed to drive it. Can they confirm that they have processed my test pass certificate and that I have the correct entitlement? Then ask them to put it in writing. They may say Yes, you have the entitlement, therefore it must have been processed. If they say no sorry, we can't find any record of your test certificate, I'm afraid you need to do the test again, then you are no worse off.

Are you sure the rule about Canadian's getting an automatic was in place when you swapped your license, or has it been introduced since? When did you Canadian friend swap his?

[Stu]

So your advice is that I should risk it to save £50 and a few hours? :confused: I think I'll just do the test and not try my luck on this one :)
I'm with Ralph :shock: you could run into problems trying to update your licence and, at best, end up being no more legal than you are now.

Maybe you should get some better advice than from the internets tho' ;)

[CheGuevara]

Just to be clear - I have phoned the DVLA (last week when I realised there was an error) - their records do not show me as having provided evidence that I've passed a manual test, despite what's printed on my licence. They can clearly see there's a problem when they look.

So if I were in an accident, and the insurance company bothered to check with the DVLA - all sorts of problems could result. The only out for me at that point would be a blatant lie, at which point I'd be risking being convicted of insurance fraud, as well as being liable for the accident itself.

[CheGuevara]

Are you sure the rule about Canadian's getting an automatic was in place when you swapped your license, or has it been introduced since? When did you Canadian friend swap his?

It's been in place for at least a few years - I was aware of it before I moved here, and it's still in place now.

What I discovered afterwards was that I could have redone my test in Canada, requesting that they make special note that I did it in a manual, and apparently that would have been sufficient. Oh well... :)

[CheGuevara]

Full credit for your honesty, I would just say: "valid licence - can drive - whatever." if you can afford it, and it worries you that much just have a few lessons and do the test! It puts your mind at ease.

This is it really -not so much the honesty, but I'd always be wondering "what if...". So it seems to me to be a relatively small effort to just go do one practical exam for the peace of mind that I gain.

I'll get the correction made on my licence before I do the test. I've actually been advised that I may need to do this before they will let me book the exam (we'll see). That should help limit the confusion when I send in my pass certificate for the exam.

[-Ralph-]

Just to be clear - I have phoned the DVLA (last week when I realised there was an error) - their records do not show me as having provided evidence that I've passed a manual test, despite what's printed on my licence. They can clearly see there's a problem when they look.

That changes things completely then, in that case debate over IMO, you have to do the test.