Blipping the throttle on downchanges?

[Davadvice]

Hello,

I have mates that tell me that i should blip the throttle when going down the gears and that it's better so i don't lock(slow it so muc that it slides) the rear wheel.

i find that i can use the clutch to do this and it seems more effective as blipping just seems to add more time to the process and gives me another thing to think about.

As i see it if the engine is idling and i drop a gear i will slow the bike down faster.

I have to admit that when i first got the SV650 i did lock up the rear but i was going a wee bit to quick, was not used to the bike (had it one day) and it was icey.

i do believe that my Clutch controll in both the car and the bike is at a level where i can controll the rate of deceleration.

am i really missing somthing by not blipping the throttle prior to a gear change?

Cheers
David

[yorkie_chris]

Yes, you using up a lot of attention using clutch like that, wearing clutch more and making it more likely you'll c*ck it up.

Once you have learnt blipping method you will not go back to feeding clutch out slowly as it is much smoother and easier.

[muddi]

Im sure some guys just do it to show off the sound of the engine - cant see why you need to really. Just slow down normal way then change down when at the right speed! shheeeemples!! ;)

[Wideboy]

i do it but only if im coming off fast into a corner, like chris said if you can do it properly you'll never not do it :lol:

[yorkie_chris]

When you can actually use that method and do it smoothly you can criticise it ;)


As i see it if the engine is idling and i drop a gear i will slow the bike down faster.

You also have long period of time where you have no control of bike.

Quick blip, downshift is immediate, you are connected to bike... throttle actually does something, you are making best of the 2 wheels you have.

If engine is idling all you do letting clutch out is dump the inertia of the bike into the engines rotating mass which WILL lock the wheel before it slows you down. It's a one-off braking effect.

Blipping to bring the revs up will slow you down effortlessly.

[ChrisSV]

I hated blipping at first, mainly cause i couldnt do it, but ive pretty much got it sussed now, and it certainly makes things easier, and downshiffting better, and more enjoyable, everythings just that bit smoother.

[muddi]

hhhmmmm so you blip as you bring clutch in?? Is that right??

Cant say ive ever noticed the bike 'coasting' as when changing down I try to get speed right first by braking then quick change down with revs off, back on again once changed (depending on what ive slowed down for obviously lol)

explain to the uninitiated lol :D

[simesb]

Once you have learnt blipping method you will not go back to feeding clutch out slowly as it is much smoother and easier.

Absolutely - makes a huge difference to smoothness, partly as you are negating a lot of the engine braking.

You don't HAVE to do it, but once you get good at it you will find yourself doing it nearly all the time, and not just for the cool noise. :D

Have you tried it yet, or just don't see that it would be worthwhile?

[yorkie_chris]

One smooth action

Bring clutch in, blip, change down, dump clutch out. If you slowing down from speed it will sound like a big dog barking with a long echo :-P

[Biker Biggles]

The disadvantage of blipping is that you use your right hand for it,which is very busy with the front brake at the time.The real skill is to maintain maximum front brake and have throttle control for blipping.Slipper clutch anyone?

[sinbad]

I'm amazed how often this topic comes up for discussion, and by the stubbornness of some of the people who claim it's useless or unnecessary or simply not worth bothering with.

The theory is so simple to understand. It just works.

Everyone should be able to do this, even if they choose not to (for some reason). It's as much a part of riding a bike as anything else imo.

[simesb]

Cant say ive ever noticed the bike 'coasting' as when changing down I try to get speed right first by braking then quick change down with revs off, back on again once changed (depending on what ive slowed down for obviously lol)

With that approach you may be at the right road speed for the gear, but not the right engine speed for the gear you are going to be in.

[yorkie_chris]

I'm amazed how often this topic comes up for discussion, and by the stubbornness of some of the people who claim it's useless or unnecessary or simply not worth bothering with.

The theory is so simple to understand. It just works.

Everyone should be able to do this, even if they choose not to (for some reason). It's as much a part of riding a bike as anything else imo.

TBH I think explaining it is harder than doing it!

[Amanda]

This is exactly the same thread I had a while ago. I now blip the throttle all the time - makes SO much difference.

Basically you pull in the clutch , down gear and blip throttle then let out the clutch. It's pretty instant and the ride is smoother cos the higher revs match the lower gear. Before I blipped I noticed you get a jolt when you change down gear.

[sinbad]

TBH I think explaining it is harder than doing it!

The crazy thing is that that's true! :)

But the theory is simple. I think riders who don't recognise the need for it simply do not try to slow down with any great urgency for corners. You can get away with it if you ride like that, "there's no need".

[simesb]

Basically you pull in the clutch , down gear and blip throttle then let out the clutch. It's pretty instant and the ride is smoother cos the higher revs match the lower gear. Before I blipped I noticed you get a jolt when you change down gear.

Blip very slightly before the down change, not afterwards. In practice it's almost instantaneous which I guess was why you wrote it like that ;)

[muddi]

With that approach you may be at the right road speed for the gear, but not the right engine speed for the gear you are going to be in.

know what you mean by that but I listen to the engine noise for gear change than look at actual speed etc, so far fingers crossed not made a bollox of it yet lol....

oh apart from when first got the bike and dropped to a too low gear as thought I was in a higher gear than I actually was :rolleyes: going round a downhill hairpin at time and locked back wheel - oopsie! Just pulled clutch in and kicked up gear rather sharpish haha, brakes were on a tad already..

Might just give it a go and see how I do with it - like someone said - be a bit weird trying to brake and blip at same time... suppose ya never know till ya tried it! ;)

[Mr Speirs]

In my humble but correct opinion the SV is practically unrideable at pace without blipping the throttle.
You let the clutch out quickly you give you arms and wrists a knackering not to mention to balls to tank altercations.
You let the clutch out slowly and you find as you are slowing down you are constantly feathering the clutch and hardly ever in the right gear.

[Seggons]

Things become really interesting when your braking with the front and rear brake while at the same time downshifting with a blip. :lol:

[christian1000]

With braking and blipping the throttle, is it best to use two or four fingers on the front brake lever? Or is it just a matter of preference?

[yorkie_chris]

Matter of preference, I can do it with 1-4 on lever. Prefer 1 or 2 depending what pads I have at time.

[simesb]

With braking and blipping the throttle, is it best to use two or four fingers on the front brake lever? Or is it just a matter of preference?

You can blip the throttle without braking - try it when you are cruising up to red lights. I'd advise getting comfortable with the sequence before trying it in great anger. Sure, racers use it but it is still a valuable technique for the road.

As to fingers, there is no right and wrong. I am most comfortable with two but it's whatever works for you.

[christian1000]

cheers, I have found ive been using all four, if I use two I find the lever gets quite close to the fingers I leave on the bar, perhaps ive just got chubby hands :)

[yorkie_chris]

Or crap brakes :-P

[ChrisSV]

What settin you got your brake lever on? I know is obvious, but i found the same thing, so i turned my lever to 1 and is all good now.

[christian1000]

aye thats another possibility :), though the bikes only got 3000miles on it.

Got the setting on one. Might have another play around tomorrow, might just be the way I position my hand.

[Jamesy D]

I can't offer an opinion with an SV, but when I had my little 50 I pretty much developed into blipping the throttle instinctively, especially when I was coasting for lights or waiting for someone to pass in front of me. If I didn't blip, the instant I'd let the clutch out the revs would dissapear into the abyss, and I'd be left having to rush a downshift, putting me in the wrong gear etc etc.

Blipping kept me at the right revs for the right gear and gave me a quick pickup as soon as the lights went green/the car was out of the picture.

Admittedly, totally different with a V-twin's low down torque, but the theory is the same.

[yorkie_chris]

Even with V twin having more poke there is still a correct rev range to use :)

That is why learning on an annoying, screaming 2t is good :)

[fizzwheel]

In my humble but correct opinion the SV is practically unrideable at pace without blipping the throttle.

You've not ridden with my other half have you. Liz never blips and she certainly doesnt hang about.

[lukemillar]

Blip very slightly before the down change, not afterwards. In practice it's almost instantaneous which I guess was why you wrote it like that ;)

Actually Ol' man Keith Code says change down, blip, then let the clutch out but at the end of the day, it pretty much simultaneously so is immaterial.

Or get a slipper clutch! I gave blipping ages ago on the track. Going into a turn after a straight and shifting from 6th > 2nd while hard on the brakes just means one less thing to think about :)

[yorkie_chris]

You've not ridden with my other half have you. Liz never blips and she certainly doesnt hang about.

she must have zero mechanical sympathy.

I hate that big CLACK you get if you tw*t it down 5000rpm worth of ratios at once with no blip. Remind me never to buy a bike off your lass, aye.

[Specialone]

Took me a while to get it, still dont get it perfect all the time but it works, simple.
I do it on all bikes i ride now, instinctively.

[Chris92]

I try to do it, but i find i blip it too much and the bike jolts forward... lol

[yorkie_chris]

Let the clutch out a microsecond later, you want to catch the revs as they are dropping.

[Specialone]

I try to do it, but i find i blip it too much and the bike jolts forward... lol

Blipping the right amount WILL come with experience, just keep at it.

[ArtyLady]

TBH I think explaining it is harder than doing it!

I don't suppose you would believe me if I told you they taught us this at advanced training? oh hang on .... yes I am in the right thread ;) :lol:

[yorkie_chris]

Pretty basic thing to need to teach in advanced class ;)

[Luckypants]

This is basic bike control. 'Advanced' training taught this? My lad was blipping on his CBT and DAS because it is how he was taught while out with me. It is not a hard technique to master, it's all about the timing. I think when you understand the mechanics of why it's a better (IMO) down change technique it all becomes much clearer.

[ArtyLady]

This is basic bike control. 'Advanced' training taught this? My lad was blipping on his CBT and DAS because it is how he was taught while out with me. It is not a hard technique to master, it's all about the timing. I think when you understand the mechanics of why it's a better (IMO) down change technique it all becomes much clearer.

How many people were taught this on their CBT and DAS then? I wasn't! was I swindled then? :eek: ;)

[Jamesy D]

I wasn't - If I had, it would have made riding that 50cc twist and go very interesting...

I have been taught it when doing my Mod 1 and Mod 2 training (even though I was doing it anyway, we were in a group) and it was one of the things both the assessors said I did well when I failed my two attempts at Mod 2.

[Milky Bar Kid]

I was thinking about this when I was out tonight, before I had read the thread funnily enough. I haven't mastered it yet bt I will give it a go..

[gruntygiggles]

Was told it on DAS, not necessarlity taught it if ya get my drift. Actually, they said to start just holding the throttle where it is, not rolling off when shifting down to start, then move on to actively blipping when I have abit more experience.

As for brakes.....I used to hate that Dan uses two fingers (behave people), but the very first time I went out on the CG after passing Mod 2, I noticed by the time I got home that I was only using two fingers. I like it. It means you physically can't grab a fistful of front brake...but as I found last Saturday, you can still use it and brake as hard aas you need to.

[yorkie_chris]

It means you physically can't grab a fistful of front brake...

"Fistful" is just lots of brake suddenly.

You can apply plenty brake to lock wheel and slide on your *rse using 2 fingers!

[gruntygiggles]

"Fistful" is just lots of brake suddenly.

You can apply plenty brake to lock wheel and slide on your *rse using 2 fingers!

Haha, good to know.....I had to brake suddenly on my test and you have to use four fingers in test.....I think I let off a nanosecond before locking the front wheel....but he just thought I did it well.....I wasn't about to correct him :-).

I do think that in an emergency situation it may just be instinct to grab at the front brakes with all fingers???

[yorkie_chris]

You need to build muscle memory that "BRAKE!" is to progressively apply brakes hard and NOT to grab at them (panic response), as this will instantly lock the front wheel.

This is important and should be practiced.


Only panic response is for a situation which you are not anticipating or prepared for which causes adrenal dump and fight/flight/freeze response. Read "dead or alive" by Geoff Thompson, nothing to do with bikes at all but great book :)

[gruntygiggles]

Will look into it. I think my biggest area for development on the bike right now is when to throttle on in a bend. I do wait until I can see the exit.....but it's on the long bends that I find I hold the speed, then when it tightens up, I am VERY cautious of throttling on again, so sometimes do it a bit too gingerly and it's not very smooth.

[Chris92]

Im talking about low speed blipping anyway.

still have the odd problem with high speed but its mainly slow speed...

ill try as you suggested!

[Davadvice]

i knew this would get a good few comments when i started the thread.

firstly some people seem to think i don't know the mechanics of it all that is not true i know exactly, it's the same idea as double clutching. matching the speed of the input shaft/to the engine.
someone mentioned that the don't roll of the throttle when down shifting and can get a far better downshift. this is something that I also do.

It seems that i must be trying the enter a corner at the maximum posible limit to be riding corectly. sorry to disappoint, i have 2 kids and don't want to take the risk of being on the border line to the point that i may kill myself and miss out on many years of great times of them growing up and being a total pain in the ass :).

The first reponse stated that the bike was out of controll for a great deal of time as i was slipping the clutch that would mean the the Tuno my mate rides would be pretty rubbish as it has a slipper clutch doing the same thing that i am doing would it not?


I'm no Rossi i don't have the inclenation to be. so on that would it be totaly nessicery (excuse my spelling) for me to blip if i can controll the bike without it.

also when going round a corner i feather the clutch(when nessicery) on both the bike and the car to ensure the delivery of power is correct (I've yet to replace a clutch on a car and have to 10s of thousands of miles)

I have blipped the throttle but to be honest i don't feel that it slows me as much as it does when i don't.

cheers
Davie

[simesb]

I have blipped the throttle but to be honest i don't feel that it slows me as much as it does when i don't.

I think you are missing the point - it is smoothness, not speed, which is the greatest advantage.

[yorkie_chris]

It seems that i must be trying the enter a corner at the maximum posible limit to be riding corectly. sorry to disappoint, i have 2 kids and don't want to take the risk of being on the border line to the point that i may kill myself and miss out on many years of great times of them growing up and being a total pain in the ass :).

The first reponse stated that the bike was out of controll for a great deal of time as i was slipping the clutch that would mean the the Tuno my mate rides would be pretty rubbish as it has a slipper clutch doing the same thing that i am doing would it not?

also when going round a corner i feather the clutch(when nessicery) on both the bike and the car to ensure the delivery of power is correct (I've yet to replace a clutch on a car and have to 10s of thousands of miles)

I have blipped the throttle but to be honest i don't feel that it slows me as much as it does when i don't.

cheers
Davie

You are slipping clutch, this causes wear. Fact.

It is not about maximum corner speed and you blatantly do not have the faintest idea what a slipper clutch does either.

[Chris92]

Yep i tried it today, besides sounding pretty cool, made things abit smoother :)

(and the lovely looking ladies turned around as i was slowing down to the junction :D)

[Davadvice]

You are slipping clutch, this causes wear. Fact.

It is not about maximum corner speed and you blatantly do not have the faintest idea what a slipper clutch does either.


i know it causes wear but to what degree depends on how agressive the clutch is feathered

enlighten me on the slipper clutch?

I am totaly blind to any research on it so i will give it a go. I diafram is used to put pressure on the presure plate thus releasing the presure on the clutch? the vacume from the engine is used to generate the movement for the presure plate.

[yorkie_chris]

Nah that is just some weird aprilia slipper clutch.

Common type uses back torque to open the clutch pack. Normal riding is unaffected but it does reduce the engine braking under very heavy back torque and makes the back end more controllable when braking heavily.

Completely different to holding the clutch in around a corner, because as soon as you give it a whiff of throttle it will reengage smoothly and you have drive back.


IMO using the clutch around corners is a really bad thing. You deny yourself control and introduce a situation where a misjudgement WILL cause a slide. There is a reason pretty much every course I can think of says "select gear... go round the corner" ... NOT "get the wrong gear, mess up the shift so it isn't smooth then band-aid it by slipping the clutch and hope nowt else goes wrong".

[gruntygiggles]

Davadvice, you can tell me to buggar off when it comes to bikes as I'm new to that, but having done skid pans, rally driving and race days in cars....along with copious amounts of off road driving (more technical than most give credit for) I can say that, while feathering clutch at low speeds, in car parks for manouvers etc is a good way of controlling the car...at road speeds around bends, it is never a good idea. The engine should always be under full drive when in a corner/down a hill......so pick the right speed and gear in advance and let the engine control the flow of the car around the corner, allowing for slowing by coming off the throttle and speeding up by going on the throttle without the need to drop a gear in order to accelerate away.

I would imagine the same is true on bikes, I don't know, but to me....any time you pull the clutch in, the bike is momentarily not under drive and this in any situation is not ideal...hence the legalities around coasting in cars.

Not trying to teach you how to drive or ride....far from it, just sharing my opinion on the possible dangers of using your clutch while in a corner. It can be a very dangerous thing to do in cars...FACT...I would imagine the same for bikes. If you are feeling the bike is too jerky in a corner, maybe you are just in a gear too low for the speed?

[Milky Bar Kid]

IMO using the clutch around corners is a really bad thing. You deny yourself control and introduce a situation where a misjudgement WILL cause a slide. There is a reason pretty much every course I can think of says "select gear... go round the corner" ... NOT "get the wrong gear, mess up the shift so it isn't smooth then band-aid it by slipping the clutch and hope nowt else goes wrong".

+1. Asking for trouble in both car and bike..

[Davadvice]

so what you are saying that controling the amout of breaking be it via a clutch or through the break in a corner when you have made a mistake is a bad thing.

for instance going down hill and you reduce by 2 gears and the engine is slowing the car/bike too much you fether the cluch and controll the amount of torque to the drive wheel to stop it sliding on the rubber.

as for the aprilia YC is that how they do their slipper clutch. i was totaly guesing.

my other point would be that when on the bike i always try to reduce the speed for the entry of the corner go round and on/just before exit power out. if i am reducing the speed prior to the entry (assuming I get it right) then blipping would not affect the entry if i am approaching at the correct speed. droping a gear in a corner to me would be a total no-no

when a rally driver uses heel/tow is this not what they are doing.

From the responces i read it as some people seem to think i believe what i'm saying is mater of fact. it is not. i'm just trying to argue the point from my opinion/experiance and I'm open to others views. don't want to seem like a total ass hole. every day is a school day. If i can get anything from this then that's a bonus.

I'm Not the type of person to take what a person says as gosbel untill i have hard evedence. I was suposed to be catholic and they totaly failed.

could it be that i ride in a way that blipping it not totaly requiered and that is why i can't see the benifit?

[yorkie_chris]

so what you are saying that controling the amout of breaking be it via a clutch or through the break in a corner when you have made a mistake is a bad thing.

for instance going down hill and you reduce by 2 gears and the engine is slowing the car/bike too much you fether the cluch and controll the amount of torque to the drive wheel to stop it sliding on the rubber.

Yes, a bad thing. You should have selected the correct gear so you can reduce speed in a corner by rolling off the throttle rather than trying to micromanage clutch bite, throttle, brakes, cornering and observations all at the same time.


No you would keep the clutch fully engaged and give it a slight amount of throttle or use the front brake.

[Milky Bar Kid]

When in the car, I carry out what is known as "sustained rev gear changes". It particularly applies when downshifting. The principle of this is that when downshifting, say from 4th to 3rd, you are at 4k revs in 4th, but you want to be in third, lock your foot, don't lift off or press on the accelerator, keep it steady, engage clutch, (you notice the revs will jump up slightly) select gear, release clutch and the result should be a lovely, smooth gear change.

There is no need to be feathering the clutch on a downshift.

[yorkie_chris]

That principle is more for downshifting to gain tractive effort... for example if you were approaching a big hill right?

[Milky Bar Kid]

Nope, I was taught to do it whenever I downshift.

[gruntygiggles]

It can be used in a number of circumstances, but whichever way you use it, same as with bike I guess, by keeping the revs high, you eliminate (if you do it properly) the chance of a surge in power by putting your right foot on the throttle a little too much. When you do this, it can mean too much power going to the driving wheels than the current speed requires and so you can skid in bad conditions.

[yorkie_chris]

Nope, I was taught to do it whenever I downshift.

What if you have the throttle closed when you need to change down ;)

[Milky Bar Kid]

Again, we were taught that we were supposed to slow the vehicle to the correct speed, then downshift, by which time you would be back on the throttle, obviously not accelerating but keeping constant revs. It's difficult to explain and i am probably explaining it wrong...

[yorkie_chris]

I see what you mean, can't really see advantage of it myself though given how incredibly lazy I am and how easy it is to just knock it down through the 'box coming up to a corner!

[flymo]

Actually Ol' man Keith Code says change down, blip, then let the clutch out but at the end of the day, it pretty much simultaneously so is immaterial.

Or get a slipper clutch! I gave blipping ages ago on the track. Going into a turn after a straight and shifting from 6th > 2nd while hard on the brakes just means one less thing to think about :)

unless you ride in minitwins where you cant use slipper clutches :-(

[Holdup]

When in the car, I carry out what is known as "sustained rev gear changes". It particularly applies when downshifting. The principle of this is that when downshifting, say from 4th to 3rd, you are at 4k revs in 4th, but you want to be in third, lock your foot, don't lift off or press on the accelerator, keep it steady, engage clutch, (you notice the revs will jump up slightly) select gear, release clutch and the result should be a lovely, smooth gear change.

There is no need to be feathering the clutch on a downshift.

So do you brake, then downshift? instead of braking and downshifting?

As for blipping the throttle on the bike, some times i do, sometimes i dont, only recently worked out how to do it (but still fluff it up on occasion)

[Milky Bar Kid]

Yep, you should be at the correct road speed before changing gear..ie the system was "road positioning is correct, speed is correct, gear is 3 and I will now negotiate this left hand bend..." Position, speed, gear, manouvre...

[Richie]

I brake (rear very Light, no very very light as I now ride a V-Twin thou, but was still the same for the sv650) and two fingers on the front... Clutch in, Blip throttle (Not too Much!) Change down, feed the clutch back out in around an 1/8 of a second roughly, .. Smoothly hopefully, it's all fingers tips and toe tips... Sound nice and feels great.

but that's just the way I like to ride...

Please do not try to emulate me as I'm a one off :0)

[yorkie_chris]

From full throttle... close throttle, brake progressively... swear a bit... see god... brake VERY HARD... knock it down 3 gears (clutchblipBOWWWW) very quickly ... wait for back tyre to hook back up and stop sliding... turn in ... open throttle
Big grin :)

[Shellywoozle]

I went out today after reading this thread last night and found I already do this without knowing about it.

Is it 'cause I do sustained revs in the car, something taught on advanced to make a smoother rode? Don't know but it's easy peasy :)

[Holdup]

Yep, you should be at the correct road speed before changing gear..ie the system was "road positioning is correct, speed is correct, gear is 3 and I will now negotiate this left hand bend..." Position, speed, gear, manouvre...

Ah i get it now, sounds like a lot to think about but i expect its pretty easy once you know

[sinbad]

Yep, you should be at the correct road speed before changing gear..ie the system was "road positioning is correct, speed is correct, gear is 3 and I will now negotiate this left hand bend..." Position, speed, gear, manouvre...

Police training I presume. I think I recall Vicky Butler Henderson being shown this technique on 5th Gear a few years back.

Doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but clearly it fits a purpose and is simple to teach.

[Shellywoozle]

Police training I presume. I think I recall Vicky Butler Henderson being shown this technique on 5th Gear a few years back.

Doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but clearly it fits a purpose and is simple to teach.

IPSGA (Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration) - Police training but is the best way of driving. You never more than one thing at a time. You never have to steer and change gear. By being at the right speed, at the right time for the obstabcle ahead you ALWAYS have a stable and balanced car/bike.

It takes a while to get used to but once you use the system of car control you will wonder how you drove before.

Ohh and not simple to teach ........... 4 week advanced course and 9 hours a day solid driving and some still fail.

[Richie]

From full throttle... close throttle, brake progressively... swear a bit... see god... brake VERY HARD... knock it down 3 gears (clutchblipBOWWWW) very quickly ... wait for back tyre to hook back up and stop sliding... turn in ... open throttle
Big grin :)

you always make me lol.. and you need :smt100

[yorkie_chris]

Thing is I can do all that and still be slower than someone who can actually ride :-P

[sinbad]

IPSGA (Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration) - Police training but is the best way of driving. You never more than one thing at a time. You never have to steer and change gear. By being at the right speed, at the right time for the obstabcle ahead you ALWAYS have a stable and balanced car/bike.

It takes a while to get used to but once you use the system of car control you will wonder how you drove before.

Ohh and not simple to teach ........... 4 week advanced course and 9 hours a day solid driving and some still fail.

Hah, no it's really not the best way to drive. :) If you can't steer and change gear at the same time how the heck do you drive at all?

People fail the driving test too, doesn't mean it's hard to drive a car. It's simple to teach the system you outline because it requires zero technique that people with a manual car license do not already have.

[Milky Bar Kid]

IPSGA (Information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration) - Police training but is the best way of driving. You never more than one thing at a time. You never have to steer and change gear. By being at the right speed, at the right time for the obstabcle ahead you ALWAYS have a stable and balanced car/bike.

It takes a while to get used to but once you use the system of car control you will wonder how you drove before.

Ohh and not simple to teach ........... 4 week advanced course and 9 hours a day solid driving and some still fail.


Glad I got it right, I did my 4 week course 3 years ago!!:rave:

[Shellywoozle]

Hah, no it's really not the best way to drive. :) If you can't steer and change gear at the same time how the heck do you drive at all?

People fail the driving test too, doesn't mean it's hard to drive a car. It's simple to teach the system you outline because it requires zero technique that people with a manual car license do not already have.

See ya point SInbad, when I used the example steering and changing gear maybe that wasnt the best to use.... but that is summat you shouldnt be doing as an advanced driver. I only do gear change overlap when turning into a left hand bend with a car behind me.

Well I must be a typical woman driver then as I found the advanced driving course intense and the system was, in theory, easy but when being pushed to go round country lanes at 100mph plus, use the system and stay in one piece I was a nervous wreck LOL. (Then again I suppose throw in auxiliary buttons, radios and doing running commentary as well as the above no wonder I was stressed, being a bird I find it hard to multi task) :smt089

he he he or maybe its just the blonde streaks in me hair :)

[Shellywoozle]

Glad I got it right, I did my 4 week course 3 years ago!!:rave:

I did my 3 week Blue light course 6 years ago, my 1 week pursuit 3 years ago and advanced last year. Just out of interest what stages of driving do you guys do. Getting an advanced around here is like rocking horse do do.

[gruntygiggles]

Hah, no it's really not the best way to drive. :) If you can't steer and change gear at the same time how the heck do you drive at all?

People fail the driving test too, doesn't mean it's hard to drive a car. It's simple to teach the system you outline because it requires zero technique that people with a manual car license do not already have.

Steering and changing gear can be a dangerous thing to do. This is the best way to drive and I am not police trained, I have been rally trained in the past.

If you are going around a bend and in the middle of changing gear a deer jumps out in front of you, youhave far less control of a car that is already under the pressure of a turn. If you have already used your observations, got your position right, got your speed down to the appropriate speed for the bend (same as bike, depends on how far around the bend you can see, can you see the exit) and selected the correct gear for that speed, you can negotiate the bend with both hands on the wheel...properly. Then, when a deer shoots out, you are in full control of the vehicle, can effectively swerve, brake pop your hazards on if need be and so on. If you were in the middle of changing gear....you'd have a lell of a lot more to do!

EDIT:....this is of course assuming you are not going around a big bend with the car under no force from the bend. If you can see clearly ahead of you that the road is safe and the bend will not tighten, not so much a problem.

Not to mention as per my and others previous posts, changing gear on a bend requires dipping the clutch....this means a loss of control, however momentary at a time when the car needs to be under full drive.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Erm, it was probably the equivelant of the blue light course. We don't get pursuit training unless we are in the traffic.

Our driving levels are the advanced driving + emergency response. Which was basically everything you mentioned above, driving country lanes as fast as you could, commentary etc etc etc...then there is the advanced B course, which is the next level for traffic officers, it's like an inbtween course before they go to the college to do the course up there, where they will either become class 1 or 2 drivers (or fail).

We don't do pursuit unless in the traffic.

[Shellywoozle]

+1 GG - also if you are in the correct gear for the bend you have a stable car/bike.

If you are changing gear around a bend then you are accelerating or decelerating ..... you would only do that if you were not at the right speed in the 1st place. When your vehicle is balanced you have the maximum amount of grip on the road at that time. Go into the bend at the right speed, keep the power on to keep at that speed or remain with the throttle open and when the corner opens up then you can accelerate :)

As meercat would say ........ simples !

Arggh MBK ya missing out ;) tis fun!!

[fizzwheel]

Getting a bit off topic here guys arent we ?

[gruntygiggles]

Getting a bit off topic here guys arent we ?

Steered by the OP :-)

[Richie]

Thing is I can do all that and still be slower than someone who can actually ride :-P

you now just need to learn how to open that right hand mid corner.. :0)

it's nearly like what Mr. Miyagi said... "Roll on Roll Off....throttle"

[carternd]

Things become really interesting when your braking with the front and rear brake while at the same time downshifting with a blip. :lol:

Or just start slowing down earlier!

With braking and blipping the throttle, is it best to use two or four fingers on the front brake lever? Or is it just a matter of preference?
cheers, I have found ive been using all four, if I use two I find the lever gets quite close to the fingers I leave on the bar, perhaps ive just got chubby hands :)
Two is easiest for doing two things at once, if you're that way inclined. I use four fingers, for the rather odd reason that my other bike is a Honda Cub, and maximum braking means stretching the cable(!) until the lever reaches the bar, and then locking the back. You learn to leave space! And try blipping with 3 stupidly wide gears and an auto-clutch.

Let the clutch out a microsecond later, you want to catch the revs as they are dropping.

Will look into it. I think my biggest area for development on the bike right now is when to throttle on in a bend. I do wait until I can see the exit.....but it's on the long bends that I find I hold the speed, then when it tightens up, I am VERY cautious of throttling on again, so sometimes do it a bit too gingerly and it's not very smooth.
Smooth and progressive works. You need a bit of throttle through the bend, it keeps everything feeling smooth, when it's time to start exiting the bend, gradually build up the throttle input as you stand back up. If you turn in with the throttle off, just let yourself slow down through the turn, accelerate when you start exiting again as before. Going from OFF to ON or vice versa isn't good (and I still sometimes do this after two years - just less so!)

See ya point SInbad, when I used the example steering and changing gear maybe that wasnt the best to use.... but that is summat you shouldnt be doing as an advanced driver. I only do gear change overlap when turning into a left hand bend with a car behind me.

Well I must be a typical woman driver then as I found the advanced driving course intense and the system was, in theory, easy but when being pushed to go round country lanes at 100mph plus, use the system and stay in one piece I was a nervous wreck LOL. (Then again I suppose throw in auxiliary buttons, radios and doing running commentary as well as the above no wonder I was stressed, being a bird I find it hard to multi task) :smt089

he he he or maybe its just the blonde streaks in me hair :)

Bl**dy hell! The country lanes round here half the time 30 is near suicidal! I know that's with the police, but even God would think twice on some of ours!

I agree with you, doing two things at once isn't the way forward, unless you like the smell of fried brains in your lid!

Sorry, just re-looked at the thread and 9 pages have grown!

[-Ralph-]

Well this is the most one sided blipping thread I think I've seen on the org. All the folk that don't blip and whose riding doesn't particularly suffer for it have obviously given up arguing about it! One comment from Fizz about Liz' riding and I think that was about it.

Clutch feathering on a downchange generally tells you you've cocked up, or your not bothered about you clutch and you've done it on purpose to slow straight from second gear into a slow control manoeuvre.

I only blip if a blip will help, which is actually a lot of the time, but it's not necessary on every shift, by any means. It's not as "essential" as some on here are making out, and your need for it and when depends on how you ride.

If you are changing down when there isn't a big difference between engine speed and gearbox speed, what I would call "neutral" revs (correct terminology or not I don't care), it doesn't take the rear wheel long to slow down the engine, you don't have to feather the clutch, and you don't get a lurch. If your prepared to accept a small lurch and your at "neutral" revs, then just tap the gear lever, it'll slot through and you don't need the clutch at all.

Similarly if you do change down at a rev range where there is a lot of engine braking, without a blip, and you have to feather the clutch on one down change in order to smooth it out, don't worry about it, your not going to wreck your clutch with one down change, any more than you will with one rapid launch off the traffic lights.

Most of my down changes happen because I have planned well ahead and am slowing down early, so I'm at neutral revs. If I'm pushing on a bit so want to brake a bit later I'll blip. If I'm really in a hurry and I'm standing the bike on it's nose I'll block change with the clutch in and release it again when gear and revs are correct, again no clutch feathering required.

[muddi]

I gave up giving my point of view because apparently you need to blip if you want to change down smoothly! (according to majority on here it seems)

But to be honest I have never cluncked into gear -only sound I get is the same sound as when I change up gear - (should I be blipping then too??) that comes from the pedal.

I have tried blipping - yeah if you have to change down quicker than you have prepared for its useful, but TBH Im not a harsh braker anyway so have never had any jerkiness or harsh cluncking or locking of wheels (apart from once when I was in a lower gear than I thought - oops)

So I might use it when the need arises but not every single time I drop a gear.

ooh it turns out when I had been slowing down anyway and the engine wasn't at same speed as bike (if you know what i mean) i have naturally blipped anyway.. But I always listen/feel for the engine when gearing up/down - never looked at speedo/revs.

my two penneth worth anyway - before I get flamed.... (again):rolleyes:

[yorkie_chris]

ooh it turns out when I had been slowing down anyway and the engine wasn't at same speed as bike (if you know what i mean) i have naturally blipped anyway.. But I always listen/feel for the engine when gearing up/down - never looked at speedo/revs.

my two penneth worth anyway - before I get flamed.... (again):rolleyes:

You should not need to look at speedo or revs, that is how it should be.

People disagreeing with you is not flaming.

[sinbad]

The thing about the police method is not so much the "don't change gear in a corner" thing, although being capable of doing that is far better than not (how many sequences of fast-medium speed corners give you a nice straight section of road to change gear and indeed, brake, for the forthcoming really slow corner? Not all- panic stations?), it's the brake brake brake, stop braking, change gear, steer, part. It's unnecessary and weird. :)

What's so bad about being in the appropriate gear before you have finished braking?

[yorkie_chris]

If you are doing it too quick you will slide the back wheel. That is the only disadvantage I can see. But if you are braking upright it will not go anywhere...

Imagine braking after a long straight though, you might have to go down the whole 'box. That is a lot of time to be lost when you are not using hardly any of your traction.

[muddi]

You should not need to look at speedo or revs, that is how it should be.

People disagreeing with you is not flaming.

Yeah agree with speedo/revs - some people were mentioning right road speed but not right engine speed - presumed they were concentrating on the actually speed of bike and not taking into account the engine noises etc.


flaming - bit of a harsh word and is the wrong word lol. ;) sowwy!!

[yorkie_chris]

All by feel, this is harder to describe... so people talk about the mechanics of it, which are discussed in terms of road speed, engine speed and gear position.

Where actually you don't care, you just change gear. Many times I find myself looking for 0th gear!

[mjc]

The thing about the police method is not so much the "don't change gear in a corner" thing, although being capable of doing that is far better than not (how many sequences of fast-medium speed corners give you a nice straight section of road to change gear and indeed, brake, for the forthcoming really slow corner? Not all- panic stations?), it's the brake brake brake, stop braking, change gear, steer, part. It's unnecessary and weird. :)

What's so bad about being in the appropriate gear before you have finished braking?

Because, in a car, you need both feet to change gear properly and you cant do that if one is on the brakes. Also, use of the clutch = no drive so you lose engine braking and stability. If you try the IPSGA method, you'll find it works, really well.

I think the key difference with respect to using it on a bike is the sequential gearbox which doesnt work so well with block changes, and the multi plate clutch which is more precise and controllable than a car, so less drive is lost.

[flymo]

Blipping is essential if you are wanting to change down the gears quicker than the bike is decellerating, usually because it then requires the engine to be at a higher rpm to match the speed of the rear wheel for that gear.

Stand at the approach to any corner on a race track that requires rapid downshifting and you can hear it in action (apart from classes that allow slipper clutches). One of the most useful techiniques I ever learnt in racing was the ability to do this rapidly and smoothly, particularly being able to control the throttle and blip at the same time as maintaining a constant front brake pressure. The reason for this is that we need to decelerate quickly in a short distance but also to prepare the bike to be in the correct gear for the corner, blipping lets you do this.

If you are slowing the bike down nice and gently then blipping makes very little difference.

Its not right or wrong, its just necessary under certain riding conditions.

[muddi]

aahh yes! You see I am pretty much ok with human mechanics - but when it comes to metal stuff, im just not interested - I go by feel/sounds etc etc.. Ive done a lot of offroading (cars not bikes) and thats the same I kind of understand the basic mechanics of it but still go by 'gut instinct' by what just feels right..

Like you say - things like that are harder to describe. I did go out yesterday and followed your advice on blipping by the way - and found I had been doing it on the odd occasion when I had tried to gear down a tad too quick for the bike so had done it automatically.
Same with counter steering - I was sort of doing it already - but when somebody explained in easy terms what to do and I did it -t'was even easier lol.

So cheers for the easy explanation of blipping! ;)

[gruntygiggles]

Yep...breaking and changing gear at the same time is loss of drive...not a good thing. If you are in a situation where you have a big fast corner , followed by a much tighter corner that you need to slow down for...you shouldn't need to break, you should be in a gear going around that faster corner that allows for slowing of the vehicle by just easing off the throttle, if this doesn't slow you, you are in too high a gear, If it does slow you but it's a particluarly tight turn, then depending on the road conditions, you can either drop it a gear quickly....but doing this you HAVE to keep the revs up, not come off the throttle during change OR you can brake, then change down a gear, then drive through corner, still keeping revs up. How quickly the tight bend comes up can dictate which course of action you use, also, wet/icy roads determine the same. In the wet...MUCH better to keep revs up and do a quick down change than apply the brakes when you are too close to the corner.

[flymo]

Yep...breaking and changing gear at the same time is loss of drive...not a good thing.

eh? there's nothing at all wrong with that, its just not appropriate for some corner layouts.

[Stig]

From full throttle... close throttle, brake progressively... swear a bit... see god... brake VERY HARD... knock it down 3 gears (clutchblipBOWWWW) very quickly ... wait for back tyre to hook back up and stop sliding... turn in ... open throttle
Big grin :)


hehehe been there done that. :lol:

[yorkie_chris]

S bends where the second one is tighter are great challenge.

Loads of ways to skin cat, square it off on exit of first, brake and drop gear/ into first one at high revs, roll off on exit and then into second/crap self, brake, run out of room to change down and completely naff up the exit :-P

There is one up here where there is S bend like that with a hump bridge in between... that wakes you up :-P