View Full Version : Overtaking in the blackwall tunnel.
If you do it, you are a complete tool and deserve to come off. FACT.
Not really related to overtaking, but I was darned lucky not to break my neck at Blackwall Tunnel's Westbound entrance in August, where an idiot in a car came to a stand still with no brakes right in front of me because his gearbox jammed as he 'shifted it into sports mode'. Reacted too late and piled into him, over handlebars - luckily cleared my neck/head and landed on back wrestling style.
Well I was riding too much in the middle of my lane in lane2 instead of riding around the filtering territory between the lanes, so lesson learnt hardway.
Anyways, I thought that it's double whites in Blackwall anyway - not that it stops some people. But you're right, a stupid place to chance an overtake.
Red Herring
07-06-10, 06:18 PM
Not sure I can support blanket statements like that. Legality aside (I take it there are double line systems in there?) is there something in particular that makes it dangerous?
Well I'd say on a bike it's probably not. But the lanes are not the widest in the world and there are several sharp bends. I'd say cars who aim to accelerate past others and overtake in a narrow bendy tunnel are putting themselves and others at risk.
I suppose that's why it is double lines in the first place?
Paul1984
07-06-10, 07:02 PM
I never overtake in the tunnel just sit in the left lane and admire the work they are doing,see so many guys taking chances
Sid Squid
07-06-10, 07:13 PM
If you do it, you are a complete tool and deserve to come off. FACT.
That's a disgusting thing to wish on another rider - whatever their conduct. Just because you don't/won't/can't does not mean by necessity that the manouvre is wrong. RH is quite right, just because something may be illegal does not absolutely mean it's not dangerous.
"Don't judge others by your abilities - or lack of them" (My Dad).
RH is quite right, just because something may be illegal does not absolutely mean it's not dangerous.
Obviously, and if something is legal doesn't necessarily mean it's safe. I didn't catch where the op mentioned they're tools because they're doing something illegal though:confused:.
If you know blackwall tunnel, you'd know overtaking in certain parts of it in a car would certainly be hazardous.
Wouldn't go the lengths of saying it would be that dangerous on a bike due to acceleration and size, and defo wouldn't wish anyone to come off - even if they are riding like a tw*t.
Miss_Undaztood
07-06-10, 08:30 PM
Last summer I was driving through town (20 mph limit) on a nice summers day, the traffic was going slowly and there was a group of 4 sportsbikes coming from behind, filtering their way forwards. A couple of them took slightly impatient chances a couple of times, but nothing major. At the end of town, before the 30 limit, the road goes slightly uphill to a bus stop then down into a dip before opening uphill to a 40 limit. Theres a few junctions and house driveways either side, so generally the traffic goes slowish there. The traffic had came to a stop, and infront of me there was 1 car and a lorry, from my view point I could see the traffic in both lanes had stopped to let a car out of a driveway. The bikes, were waiting behind the lorry near the white line and theres no way they could see through the lorry, but should have been able to see the traffic from the opposite direction had stopped too. One of the bikers was obviously far too impatient, opened it up and took off at full throttle, overtook the lorry on the wrong side of the road, just as the car coming from the drive was pulling out infront of it. How he wasnt smacked off his bike i`ll never know but he must have squeazed past the car by millimetres.
I hope to fuk when his mates caught up with him they gave him a severe bollocking for being such a stupid impatient twŁt, and although being knocked off your bike isn`t nice, maybe a small off is what some folk need to teach them a lesson and avoid a major accident.
Theres a few times around here where some have given bikers a bad name by their stupid antics.
Sid Squid
07-06-10, 09:49 PM
If you know blackwall tunnel.
Very well, yes.
ranathari
08-06-10, 12:48 PM
Overtaking in a tunnel is just stupid because it's the worst place to have a crash: the nature of a tunnel means it's a pain for ambulances to get to you and a crash makes it even harder for them.
Overtaking in a tunnel is just stupid because it's the worst place to have a crash: the nature of a tunnel means it's a pain for ambulances to get to you and a crash makes it even harder for them.
I'm sorry but I don't see the relation between overtaking and crashing :smt102.
Perhaps it would be helpful for those, like me, that are not familiar with the Blackwall tunnel?
So, how many lanes? and which direction are they? What's the central white line system?
arenalife
08-06-10, 01:45 PM
Here's a youtube of the tunnel going both ways, for those of us who don't know it! I've never been there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuyNL2lbgFs&feature=fvst
Looks like it's a dual carriageway with solid lines. We've got a shorter tunnel like that in Cardiff, if I find myself stuck in lane 1 behind an extreme dodderer (30mph) and it's clear I'll go around (bike or car). It's usually too busy to make that choice anyway. It's great for whipping through at high speed in the early hours when you get the chance.
Here's the Cardiff one, looks a bit wider than blackwal though....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2k3F020cjY
busasean
08-06-10, 01:57 PM
been going through the blackwall tunnel for years - its two lanes on each side, one side northbound, the other side southbound. double white lines. and its pretty narrow. I often swap lanes if i get stuck behind a lorry, but some of the bikes filter at speed. I dont have a problem with it to be honest. the more you ride in london, the better your reactions seem to get. its illegal and at the end of the day you takes your chances and all that. I wouldnt wish any harm to any of them though and its pretty poor that some people do....
I bought an SV from a chap who'd crashed in the Blackwall tunnel. Not the SV I hasten to add.
Here's a youtube of the tunnel going both ways, for those of us who don't know it! I've never been there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuyNL2lbgFs&feature=fvst
Looks like it's a dual carriageway
Thanks for that.
That's what I thought it was 2 lanes in a single direction. Why the heck can traffic in one lane not pass the other lane? :smt102
From the OP I thought it was 2 lanes travelling in opposite directions.
Owenski
08-06-10, 02:48 PM
i dont get it, Is it 2 tunnels (northbound and southbound), each tunnel has 2 lanes of same directionality traffic seperated by DWL.
Is it high speed or something cos at 30surely an overtake is perfectly safe. If its NSL then yeah I can see visability been an issue for micra's overtaking transits but other than that I still dont get it.
Not trying to be ignorant so someone please explain.
punyXpress
08-06-10, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE=leedsmatt7;2290472]i dont get it, Is it:
It is 2 tunnels (northbound and southbound), each tunnel has 2 lanes of same directionality traffic seperated by single solid white line.
Used to be even more fun before they built the second one. Lunch time mission was to do a couple of return trips seeing how many backfires I could do. Mind you it leaked like a sieve & there was nothing to get rid of oil deposits.
Happy daze - I was a hooligan then! :p
Dicky Ticker
08-06-10, 04:35 PM
I can't see a problem providing you observe the lane discipline and speed limits. I will add be more cautious with heavy good vehicles though
Red Herring
08-06-10, 07:15 PM
Oh course, there is quite a bit of informed opinion that overtaking over those double white lines isn't an offence because they don't comply with regulations, but if you do it indiscriminately you're likely to attract an allegation of driving/riding without due care....
punyXpress
08-06-10, 07:27 PM
Think they're only single solid lines, but there MAY be byelaws which could thwart the pursuit of fun.
Owenski
08-06-10, 09:55 PM
[QUOTE=leedsmatt7;2290472]i dont get it, Is it:
It is 2 tunnels (northbound and southbound), each tunnel has 2 lanes of same directionality traffic seperated by single solid white line.
Used to be even more fun before they built the second one. Lunch time mission was to do a couple of return trips seeing how many backfires I could do. Mind you it leaked like a sieve & there was nothing to get rid of oil deposits.
Happy daze - I was a hooligan then! :p
my route to work takes on a few tunnels, the longest is only 100yrds or so though so its nothing to get too excited about. Although on the largest I do get disopointed if im held up by traffic, I love the sound even through my ear phones and over the music you can just hear the rumble - best part of the journey hands down.
Watching the youtube vid, it looked like the northbound tunnel has one solid white line, and the southbound has double whites.
I use the Birkenhead tunnel regularly and you're not supposed to overtake and the tunnel police enforce the limit strictly but sometimes people crawl along at 15 - and it's a lot longer than Blackwall - so it has to be done. Traffic in both directions too. Ł1.40 each way in the car, free if I'm on the bike:D
RH as a complete aside, do the police ticket people for driving without due care etc if they drive so slow that everyone gets frustrated?
Red Herring
09-06-10, 05:10 AM
RH as a complete aside, do the police ticket people for driving without due care etc if they drive so slow that everyone gets frustrated?
I've never had the bottle to actually try and prosecute someone for simply driving to slowly, however if someone is clearly holding up traffic then they would definitely get pulled over to find out why. If somebody is driving particularly badly there is usually a reason, like they're either blind drunk or more likely these days they just don't have a licence. It's like people who sit in the middle lane at 70mph (or less). They just look at you in complete disbelief when you try and suggest they ought to use the "lorry" lane occasionally! Ignorance is bliss so it seems.
Well I done it for 5+ years, without any accidents.
This must mean im a tool.
What a pleb end. Sure its tight, but if a car is not next to another car, and you can safely get through the gap, go for it.
Only difference to city riding is that each lane has a wall instead of pavement.
Its the only time I crossed static white lines, but quite frankly I was more concerned about getting through, and out the other side as promptly and safely as possible to save my lungs from taking in more black smoke than they needed too.
RH as a complete aside, do the police ticket people for driving without due care etc if they drive so slow that everyone gets frustrated?The Clyde tunnel has a minimum speed limit. But it's only 8mph - only time I've seen minimum speed limits in use.
Its the only time I crossed static white lines,
They have moving white lines? :shock:
Ive been driving through the blackwall tunnel for years also. The white lines are there for a reason and seeming as the tunnel is very narrow (northbound) I cannot believe it when you get the idiots overtaking at speed. Whats the point? You not only put your life at danger, but also the lives of others.
When you enter the tunnel, you will be out the other side in approx 3 minutes.... just slow the f*ck down for those 3 minutes!
The reason for the rant was a **** on a bike that morning was so desperate to get past a car that the car attempted to move over to allow the idiot to pass. The car was bullied in to doing so, the car then hit the curb very hard. Bike went past without a care in the world.
If the car hadn't been controlled as well as the poor guy did, he could have taken the bike out, and the guy end up under my wheels with myself to live with the fact I can killed someone.
mustnt grumble
10-06-10, 08:48 PM
Having used the Blackwall regularly in the past, I assume the OP's problem is with bikes doing mad 'moving' filtering. Some bikers in the tunnel make me feel like punching them as they put so many other peoples' lives at risk. They are usually orange KTMs for some reason..........
I have to agree with OP here (not that I wish harm to anyone). The northbound tunnel is so narrow and twisted there is barely room for 2 cars side by side. It is impossible to filter without crossing the while line and the 30mph speed limit.
There have been many occasions when I had to make room for bikers filtering at high speed not to mention the fright they give you when they appear from nowhere.
That being said, it's London and traffic is ridiculous. Many people improvise and bend the rules, forgetting maybe to take a break when common sense would normally dictate.
That being said, it's London and traffic is ridiculous. Many people improvise and bend the rules, forgetting maybe to take a break when common sense would normally dictate.
+1. Too many riders round here take way too many pointless risks. The amount of riders I see that are rinsing it through a residential at silly speeds with pedestrians darting in the most random places and big obstructing buses and devious pot holes:confused:
That said it's a jungle down here, which can be fun in itself. A rider pulled up next to me at some red lights the other day. We started chatting and he was peeved at the red! I was like why? He said I've been trying to get from central up to the M1 without putting my foot down, but these lights had just screwed him. Wasn't too far out to be fair.
I assume the OP's problem is with bikes doing mad 'moving' filtering. .....
I could maybe see his point if that were the case, but the OP said Overtaking.
Red Herring
11-06-10, 07:07 AM
I'm with Stu on this one. If the Op was suggesting that people who ride recklessly with no apparent concern for other road users deserve all they get then he'd have a great deal more support from me, but to imply that all overtakes in a particular tunnel are dangerous is a bit of a sweeping statement.
If you know blackwall tunnel, you'd know overtaking in certain parts of it in a car would certainly be hazardous.
Yeah, but the OP said you deserve to come off. You don't come off a car. You might come off in one if you're lucky and parked at make out point...
The reason for the rant was a **** on a bike that morning was so desperate to get past a car that the car attempted to move over to allow the idiot to pass. The car was bullied in to doing so
I don't care how much the bike "bullied" the car, if you as a car driver make a decision to move over in your lane then the consequences are yours and yours alone. I personally filter pretty much every time I go through the blackwall tunnel, and don't understand when people don't. However, I do it with the knowledge and skills that come from riding in this fair city for approaching 10 years, 4 of which were as a courier. Do you really think I deserve serious injury as a result? People that ride inconsiderately can be annoying, but you don't know all the facts: the rider may have been a ****. Or he may have been desperate for the toilet. Or his wife may have been taken to hospital with complications arising from pregnancy...
To generalise that any rider who does something you won't deserves to come off is amazingly judgemental and petty minded in my opinion.
In other words, crossing double solid lines inside a tunnel, braking the speed limit, intimidating, bulling or annoying other drivers is OK as long as you posses the necessary skills AND have an urgent need for a toilet ??!?
I will have to strongly disagree with you here and something tells me I'm not the only one.
I wish harm to no one BUT I have little sympathy for those with such attitude on the road.
My issue isn't with whether the OP agrees with what I do or not, but rather that he wishes me harm as a result of it. My point about needing the loo was slightly flippant: what I was trying to point out is that you don't know why the person was riding like that, so wishing them harm as a result seems rather unkind.
I break the speed limit regularly. I cross double white lines regularly. I do so in the knowledge that I do both with a degree of responsibility for my actions that many drivers and riders do not possess when they are riding perfectly legally. There are also places where there aren't double white lines where I won't overtake, and places where I will ride under the posted speed limit. It's a matter of taking in the information available to you and making a judgement based on that rather than blindly following rules which may not apply in the situation you find yourself in.
I'm not saying it's OK to bully or intimidate people, but I've found people feel intimidated sometimes for the most inconsequential of reasons. Especially when there's someone on a motorcycle coming past.
It's entirely possible that the rider observed by the OP WAS a ****. I didn't see him. That does not mean that ANYONE who overtakes in the Blackwall Tunnel deserves to come off.
I could maybe see his point if that were the case, but the OP said Overtaking.
For the avoidance of doubt, "could see his point" meant that having not experienced the Blacwall tunnel myself I could imagine that filtering in it could be dangerous and not that I would want to see any harm come to anybody who did filter in it.
(I can't even imagine overtaking to be dangerous in it)
Sorry to those who like to pick but seeming as this post was aimed at people that commute through the blackwall tunnel, I thought they would just understand that when I said overtaking I also meant filtering/ undertaking.
The white lines are there for a reason 'Bear'. You may think you are very clever for that short journey though the tunnel. What you obviously dont realise is that there are many inexperienced drivers using that tunnel. Your stupid actions could cause a serious accident. If you were knocked off in there, you could very very very easily end up under at least 5 cars seeming as its tightly packed and everyone is doing a constant 30mph.
Think of others before yourself. People like you can only be described as selfish + its people like yourself that give us all a bad name.
I'm sorry, we seem to be having a misunderstanding. I filter. All the time. This does NOT mean that I ride inconsiderately, it just means that I filter. It should also not mean that another rider would wish me to come to harm for the simple fact that I am filtering.
Had you said "this guy I saw was a **** for riding like this" I'd probably agree with you, but you didn't. You have equated filtering with riding inconsiderately, which I don't believe to be true. On top of which you have wished harm upon me and many other riders I know for doing nothing which puts anyone, myself included, in any form of danger.
Just for clarity to all reading this thread: I am not trying to say I have a right to ride inconsiderately, I ride in a manner I consider to be fast yet polite, and that includes filtering when I can make safe progress faster than the prevailing traffic. Nor am I saying that I justify or sympathise with the rider the OP observed. I wasn't there, I didn't see it and can therefore not judge.
My only beef here is the fact that the OP has said "if you filter in the blackwall tunnel you deserve to come off".
Er....before this gets out of hand.....
Reading between the lines, (get it? The double white ones? :D), I don't think the OP wishes bikers that filter any harm at all, including ones that use the BW Tunnel.
All I think he is saying is, this biker in particular was riding like a muppet, putting his/her own life at risk and potentially others too.
Most of the bikers I know are considerate to other road users, (to an extent it's common sense), we, as bikers are more vulnerable to injury or death on the roads than say a car or lorry driver.
In this example/story the biker (arguably) caused a car driver to clip a curb....now crashes in tunnels, I would have thought ARE more problematic for the emergency services...access, heat/fire etc etc.
I wouldn't wish any biker any harm, in this instance he/she that was riding in this style, if said biker had come off as a result of their riding, could blame only themselves.......
If he/she got killed by following vehicles, the drivers of theose vehicles would have the horrible reality for the rest of their lives knowing that they, however not their fault, killed someone.
It's all about, time, place and common sense.
This does NOT mean that I ride inconsiderately.
Im afraid it does. The blackwall tunnel has a strict speed limit of 30mph. So strict that people have been known to get speeding fines for 33mph.
The blackwall tunnel is notoriously narrow (northbound). For those of you that havent experienced the tunnel, the northbound tunnel is the oldest. It was built obviously to cross the thames. It was opened in 1897! So as you can imagine, this tunnel was built for horses to ferry people and goods across the river. Now you can imagine how tight it is... The reason the southbound isnt mentioned here is because that tunnel is the newest and was built with cars in mind.
Proof that the northbound was designed for horses is the way it has many sharp bends and the tunnel itself is windy. The reason for this is so that the horses couldnt see 'the light at the end of the tunnel' and bolt for it.
The blackwall tunnel also has TWO SOLID WHITE LINES painted all the way through.
So as you can see, your comment saying you do not ride 'inconsiderately' couldn't be more wrong.
Its a f*ck*ng dangerous tunnel and yourself as a qualified rider should respect this fact.
Red Herring
11-06-10, 06:05 PM
Just because something may be illegal doesn't mean it's inconsiderate to another road user. If I rode through the tunnel at 2 in the morning when there wasn't another vehicle in there and did 40mph and weaved from lane to lane would that be dangerous and inconsiderate?
Double whites? & there was me thinking it was just a really narrow middle lane...
Just because something may be illegal doesn't mean it's inconsiderate to another road user. If I rode through the tunnel at 2 in the morning when there wasn't another vehicle in there and did 40mph and weaved from lane to lane would that be dangerous and inconsiderate?
Possibly.
Dangerous if you hit a pool of diesel and come off and hit you head on the wall......BUT only dangerous to yourself, BIG difference.
And playing devils advocate, you could say inconsiderate to the ambulance crew, police, firemen that would be mopping you up off the road. And inconsiderate to all those commuters who'd be late for work!!;)
But i'm just playing devils advocate.
Reading between the lines, (get it? The double white ones? :D), I don't think the OP wishes bikers that filter any harm at all, including ones that use the BW Tunnel.
Really? Strange his wording of "If you do it, you are a complete tool and deserve to come off. FACT." then don't you think?
All I think he is saying is, this biker in particular was riding like a muppet, putting his/her own life at risk and potentially others too.
I completely agree with this sentiment, however it's not what the OP said.
Most of the bikers I know are considerate to other road users, (to an extent it's common sense), we, as bikers are more vulnerable to injury or death on the roads than say a car or lorry driver.
Agreed
In this example/story the biker (arguably) caused a car driver to clip a curb....now crashes in tunnels, I would have thought ARE more problematic for the emergency services...access, heat/fire etc etc.
I wouldn't wish any biker any harm, in this instance he/she that was riding in this style, if said biker had come off as a result of their riding, could blame only themselves.......
Having not seen the biker causing the driver to swerve I can't comment. I have however often seen car drivers overreact to bikes filtering because they aren't concentrating in the past, so it could be six of one, half a dozen of the other. As I've said: I'm not condemning or condoning the actions of the rider. If he was riding like an idiot, chances are I'd probably condemn. The OP isn't criticising this one guys riding, he's tarring all riders who filter in the tunnel with the same brush.
If he/she got killed by following vehicles, the drivers of theose vehicles would have the horrible reality for the rest of their lives knowing that they, however not their fault, killed someone.
It's all about, time, place and common sense.
Time, place and common sense. Couldn't agree more. In my opinion it is perfectly possible to filter in a calm, safe, considerate manner in the Blackwall tunnel. I've done it many times without ever affecting other users of the tunnel, and will continue to do so for as long as I am riding in London
Im afraid it does. The blackwall tunnel has a strict speed limit of 30mph. So strict that people have been known to get speeding fines for 33mph.
The blackwall tunnel is notoriously narrow (northbound). For those of you that havent experienced the tunnel, the northbound tunnel is the oldest. It was built obviously to cross the thames. It was opened in 1897! So as you can imagine, this tunnel was built for horses to ferry people and goods across the river. Now you can imagine how tight it is... The reason the southbound isnt mentioned here is because that tunnel is the newest and was built with cars in mind.
Proof that the northbound was designed for horses is the way it has many sharp bends and the tunnel itself is windy. The reason for this is so that the horses couldnt see 'the light at the end of the tunnel' and bolt for it.
The blackwall tunnel also has TWO SOLID WHITE LINES painted all the way through.
So as you can see, your comment saying you do not ride 'inconsiderately' couldn't be more wrong.
Its a f*ck*ng dangerous tunnel and yourself as a qualified rider should respect this fact.
You are going back to an argument that if it's illegal it's also dangerous, and I couldn't disagree more. I respect the fact that it's a road with some small differences to other roads, and should be treated with the respect all roads should. You don't seem to understand the fact that filtering considerately and safely is different to acting like an idiot.
Time, place and common sense. Couldn't agree more. In my opinion it is perfectly possible to filter in a calm, safe, considerate manner in the Blackwall tunnel. I've done it many times without ever affecting other users of the tunnel, and will continue to do so for as long as I am riding in London
Damn! It didn't quote it all.....
Anyway, I did say "Reading between the lines..."
And...I aint gonna take a "holier than thou" attitude, but you did write that you often brake the speed limit in there.....( ithink:rolleyes:) I doubt there's a biker on this forum that only rides at the speed limits ALL the time, but like I said, and I'm sure Mr R.Herring will agree.....there is a time and place where you or I may get away with a bit of speed, but other places we wouldn't.
Damn! It didn't quote it all.....
Anyway, I did say "Reading between the lines..."
Dude, I understand and appreciate what you're trying to do, but there's a difference between reading between the lines and saying someone said the opposite of what they actually did to calm down a heated debate!
And...I aint gonna take a "holier than thou" attitude, but you did write that you often brake the speed limit in there
Nope, I said I often break the speed limit. Not necessarily in the tunnel. Just so you know
By the way Speedy I hope you don't think this is an attack. Love you!
XXXXXX
:-)
No, course not!! It's a discussion!!
You are going back to an argument that if it's illegal it's also dangerous, and I couldn't disagree more. I respect the fact that it's a road with some small differences to other roads, and should be treated with the respect all roads should. You don't seem to understand the fact that filtering considerately and safely is different to acting like an idiot.
Its not a road with small differences, its a road with alot of difference to your usual roads. Its a road barely wide enough to fit two cars next to each other as another user have already stated. Yet you still believe it is safe to dodge in and out of the cars, and dont say that its not 'dodging in and out of cars' because it is.
I know its wrong, 90% of the people agree in this thread that it is wrong and most importantly, you know its wrong. So why do it?
SoulKiss
11-06-10, 09:52 PM
Its not a road with small differences, its a road with alot of difference to your usual roads. Its a road barely wide enough to fit two cars next to each other as another user have already stated.
You didn't see some of the roads on AR08 then did you...
Or head down to Cornwall, there are roads there that make the Blackwall Tunnel look like the M25 - and done be misled by the "hedges" - they are just drystone walls with bushes growing out of them, but high enough to effectively act like the walls of said tunnel.
Oh and I have been through the Blackwall many time, often in a convoy with a few other .orgers.
and did you filter on these roads...?
SoulKiss
12-06-10, 04:56 AM
and did you filter on these roads...?
Well only the Londoners did...
Was easy to spot us from the rest - especially when we came to a set of lights on a crossroads or queues of traffic...
I suppose I should go and have an off now that I have confessed...
Its not a road with small differences, its a road with alot of difference to your usual roads. Its a road barely wide enough to fit two cars next to each other as another user have already stated.
So, like The Strand with walls then. Or like the Limehouse Link with narrower tunnels. Or like the Kingsway tunnel with an extra lane. Or like a longer version of the tunnel under hyde park corner. 4 roads with only 1 major difference each.
Yet you still believe it is safe to dodge in and out of the cars, and dont say that its not 'dodging in and out of cars' because it is.
That sounds a pretty fair assessment of what filtering is to me.
I know its wrong, 90% of the people agree in this thread that it is wrong and most importantly, you know its wrong. So why do it?
Really? I had no idea I thought it was wrong. Thanks so much for educating me on my opinion about something, this is clearly where the confusion has come from. And here was me assuming that my opinion was that it's perfectly possible to filter in a way that doesn't inconvenience or intimidate any other road user, and that therefore filtering in the tunnel can be done safely.
You don't seem to be able to get past the idea that filtering is something purposefully designed to put me in danger and annoy other people. That's simply not the case. If I thought it was dangerous to filter in any particular situation I wouldn't do it. I just don't believe that you can say categorically that every time you go through the Blackwall Tunnel, or for that matter any stretch of road, that it's always dangerous to filter and therefore you deserve harm to come to you and damage to your bike.
I've been through there with breaks in the traffic and everyone doing around 25 MPH. The cars are staggered, so there is plenty of room for me to pass without affecting anyone's progress so I ride through at 30. And yes, I'm changing lanes and "dodging in and out of cars" as I do so. I don't understand why you assume that to be dangerous? Is it simply because there are road markings telling you it's dangerous, or is it because you have made an assessment based on your experience and decided for yourself? If it's the first, congratulations you are a law abiding citizen. Well done, pat on the back. I'm not a law abiding citizen and therefore make my own mind up about what's dangerous. If it's the latter, it's entirely possible that my experience or my observation differs from yours, and my assessment is therefore also different.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to ride in a way you aren't comfortable with. All I wish is that you'd retract your first statement which wishes harm on another rider simply for doing something you wouldn't do yourself.
Dicky Ticker
12-06-10, 10:07 AM
Doesn't the Blackwall tunnel have double solid white lines all the way through it?If that is the case crossing the double whites to filter/overtake/undertake is very very risky. As the title suggests "Overtaking" which is a different kettle of fish entirely providing you are already in the outside lane.
Doesn't the Blackwall tunnel have double solid white lines all the way through it?If that is the case crossing the double whites to filter/overtake/undertake is very very risky. As the title suggests "Overtaking" which is a different kettle of fish entirely providing you are already in the outside lane.
Yes it does. Do you mean risky danger wise or risky license wise? I know several places in this country where there are double whites, and yet on a motorcycle with the correct observation it is perfectly safe to cross them without causing anyone any problem or putting yourself in danger. As I've said several times in this thread, I wouldn't do it if it were dangerous. I simply don't believe that it is.
Dicky Ticker
12-06-10, 10:51 AM
This was me several years ago,I was driving a 44ton artic through south to north in the inside lane going up the Limehouse Link,signalled my intention before the slip,checked the mirrors and saw a bike changing from the inside to the outside lane.He then tried to undertake me on the slip but as I had already checked my nearside mirror before my manoeuvre I did not see him and crushed the bike and him against the nearside kerb. He came off and the bike went under the trailer,luckily for him he didn't.He was prosecuted for dangerous driving and had a hefty insurance bill.
The whole thing was on CCTV and I was exhonourated of any blame,Just be very careful as other drivers may not expect vehicles to change lanes over solid double whites
You can consider this a licence risk or a health risk--whatever
This was me several years ago,I was driving a 44ton artic through south to north in the inside lane going up the Limehouse Link,signalled my intention before the slip,checked the mirrors and saw a bike changing from the inside to the outside lane.He then tried to undertake me on the slip but as I had already checked my nearside mirror before my manoeuvre I did not see him and crushed the bike and him against the nearside kerb. He came off and the bike went under the trailer,luckily for him he didn't.He was prosecuted for dangerous driving and had a hefty insurance bill.
The whole thing was on CCTV and I was exhonourated of any blame,Just be very careful as other drivers may not expect vehicles to change lanes over solid double whites
You can consider this a licence risk or a health risk--whatever
So you're saying he came underneath you when you were indicating left, correct? This is one of the many instances when I wouldn't filter. As I've consistently said: I make judgement calls based on all the information I have at hand. Part of that information is road markings, part of it is the behaviour and signals of other road users. And just for the record, there aren't any white lines there telling him it's naughty to do what he did. He made a judgement call and it was the wrong one.
Can I just point out, just because I filter when it isn't necessarily legal to do so does NOT mean that I ride my bike in an unsafe manner or that I am reckless with my riding.
As for being careful as other road users may not expect you to cross double whites: I always ride with the understanding that the rest of the traffic may be totally unaware of where I am at any given point, and am therefore wary of other road users whether the road has double whites or not. The presence of double white lines, for me, is a signal that the road may present unusual hazards. As long as you are aware of what the hazards are and have taken steps to deal with those hazards, I still maintain that it is perfectly possible to filter safely in some places where white lines are present.
90% of the people agree in this thread that it is wrong
Really? :???: I'm not so sure in fact reading the contributors to date I reckon that (being as generous to you as I can) :-
Stuuk1 Agrees
thulfi Agrees
Red Herring Disagrees
Paul1984 Agrees
Sid Squid Disagrees
Miss_Undaztood Agrees
ranathari Agrees
Stu Disagrees
arenalife Disagrees
busasean Disagrees
Sosha Non committal
Owenski Disagrees
punyXpress Non committal
Dicky Ticker Disagrees
Ed Non committal
Daimo Disagrees
mustnt grumble Agrees
maxinc Agrees
Bear Disagrees
Speedy Agrees
Agrees 8 Disagrees 9 Non committal 3
My profuse Apologies if I've misinterpreted anyone's vote.
Stuuk1, I hope you are better at judging other people's riding than statistics.
Personally bro I reckon Sosha disagrees: she says the white lines are a really narrow filter lane, but I'll go with it being roughly 50:50!
http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=153089
Really? :???: I'm not so sure in fact reading the contributors to date I reckon that (being as generous to you as I can) :-
Stuuk1 Agrees
thulfi Agrees
Red Herring Disagrees
Paul1984 Agrees
Sid Squid Disagrees
Miss_Undaztood Agrees
ranathari Agrees
Stu Disagrees
arenalife Disagrees
busasean Disagrees
Sosha Non committal
Owenski Disagrees
punyXpress Non committal
Dicky Ticker Disagrees
Ed Non committal
Daimo Disagrees
mustnt grumble Agrees
maxinc Agrees
Bear Disagrees
Speedy Non committal, just high lighting some hyperthetical possibilities.
Agrees 7 Disagrees 9 Non committal 4
My profuse Apologies if I've misinterpreted anyone's vote.
Apology accepted!! :D
Hmm, so it's stacking up in my favour... 1 more conversion and I reckon I can claim 3,000,000% of the vote and that the OP agrees with me but doesn't know it yet...
Add 1 disagree to that Stu.
I was told and I firmly believe in what a Bikesafe copper told me: "Where there's space, there's danger" i.e. if a car thinks there's a space to move into they will. With this in mind and the fact that the cars in the tunnel are all travelling at a constant 30mph then doesn't it make it the ideal place for a biker to make progress rather then your average London road?
With regard to car drivers being bullied, wtf is that all about? I've never felt bullied by a bike so I'd pull over for them to go through, after all I'm in a big steel box! One could argue that the driver presented the danger rather than the bike.
what are we being claimed to have agreed to?
Really? :???: I'm not so sure in fact reading the contributors to date I reckon that (being as generous to you as I can) :-
Stuuk1 Agrees
thulfi Agrees
Red Herring Disagrees
Paul1984 Agrees
Sid Squid Disagrees
Miss_Undaztood Agrees
ranathari Agrees
Stu Disagrees
arenalife Disagrees
busasean Disagrees
Sosha Non committal
Owenski Disagrees
punyXpress Non committal
Dicky Ticker Disagrees
Ed Non committal
Daimo Disagrees
mustnt grumble Agrees
maxinc Agrees
Bear Disagrees
Speedy Agrees
Wouldn't go the lengths of saying it would be that dangerous on a bike due to acceleration and size, and defo wouldn't wish anyone to come off - even if they are riding like a tw*t.
My initial post I was kind of thinking of all vehicles, but Yeah, but the OP said you deserve to come off. You don't come off a car. You might come off in one if you're lucky and parked at make out point... - ya you're right.
To say something is always dangerous in the blackwall tunnel is clearly unfounded, ie the overtaking of a car that's slowing down cos it's running out of petrol in the tunnel at 4am.
Weaving in and out is a different matter.
Add 1 disagree to that Stu.
I was told and I firmly believe in what a Bikesafe copper told me: "Where there's space, there's danger" i.e. if a car thinks there's a space to move into they will. With this in mind and the fact that the cars in the tunnel are all travelling at a constant 30mph then doesn't it make it the ideal place for a biker to make progress rather then your average London road?
I similar copper at another Bikesafe said something about the safety bubble. And then came the example at the end with the biker's head crushed under a car because he was filtering at 5mph where there wasn't enough room ... made quite an impression on me.
At the end of the day we are alone on our bike and the most important thing is our own judgement. We all live with the consequences of our own choices, they don't have to be the same choices.
As long as you are being considerate to the others and account for the fact that a lot of them are inexperienced drivers / riders with as much right to be on the tarmac as you, then ... what would be life without risk.
As for me, I will stick with the safe rather than sorry. Being on 2 wheels is adventurous enough :)
...
At the end of the day we are alone on our bike and the most important thing is our own judgement. We all live with the consequences of our own choices, they don't have to be the same choices....
Hear hear. :smt041
Personally bro I reckon Sosha disagrees: she says the white lines are a really narrow filter lane, but I'll go with it being roughly 50:50!
I've never been able to understand Wimen :roll:
As for me, I will stick with the safe rather than sorry.
I agree.
As I said, I'm non-committal with this.
I think, as has been said already, it's down to the individual in every choice we make, overtake, don't overtake....but it's with experience that our judgements and decisions are affected.
I ride with the attitude, "treat everyone as a muppet".
Now I know, that not everyone on the road is a muppet, but with this in mind, for example, I wouldn't overtake someone when there is a junction to the right, the "muppet" in front, MIGHT decide to turn unexpectedly into that junction......causing me much fury, pain and expense.
So, I ride safe, still have my fun and then live to ride another day too.
Course, someone else could cause an incident and we/you could get caught up in it through no fault of our own.
But that goes hand in hand with doing something we all love.
Riding motorbikes.
punyXpress
12-06-10, 01:21 PM
And I disagree!
BTW: Are there repeater speed limit signs, or is the limit that for a dual-carriageway in the absense of them?
And I disagree!
I was trying to be as generous as I could to Stuuk1 in justifying his 90% in this thread agree with him claim.
Maybe he meant of those that had read the thread but not expressed an opinion?
Dicky Ticker
12-06-10, 01:58 PM
Can't quite work out this agree-disagree bit---to clarify
I see no problem in overtaking providing you are in the outside lane and stay in lane not crossing double white lines.
The white lines are there for a reason 'Bear'.
Double white lines are there to inform idiot car drivers that it's illegal to cross them because it's maybe a bad place to overtake. As a motorcyclist with more acceleration, slimmer machine, better view of the road ahead and quicker wits, I regard them as advisory and not mandatory.
I see no problem in overtaking providing you are in the outside lane and stay in lane not crossing double white lines.
I'm not sure this is what the op was getting at.
Is passing traffic that's either to your left or right when there are double white lines even considered an overtake/undertake? What if traffic in the right lane is horrendously slow and they aren't allowed to switch lane. You're not really undertaking. Well you are, but you aint..:confused:
Milky Bar Kid
12-06-10, 03:28 PM
Double white lines are there to inform idiot car drivers that it's illegal to cross them because it's maybe a bad place to overtake. As a motorcyclist with more acceleration, slimmer machine, better view of the road ahead and quicker wits, I regard them as advisory and not mandatory.
LOL! Loz you make me laugh, advisory, not mandatory! Class!
Can't quite work out this agree-disagree bit---to clarify
It was in response to post 49 - and I tried to assess up to that point the people that agreed with Stuuk1 or disagreed.
lukemillar
13-06-10, 03:17 AM
LOL! Loz you make me laugh, advisory, not mandatory! Class!
Same deal with those white signs, with the red circle around them and the numbers in the middle :wink:
I just asked all 20 of my tropical fish, they agree with me...
As I have said before, the title is wrong. I made a mistake there. Its dual carriageway and i disagree with filtering. Overtaking was the complete wrong word to use.
I just asked all 20 of my tropical fish, they agree with me...
As I have said before, the title is wrong. I made a mistake there. Its dual carriageway and i disagree with filtering. Overtaking was the complete wrong word to use.
But do you still stand by the sentiment that anyone who does it deserves to come off? I really don't care what your opinion of peoples riding is, the bad wishes are the only reason I've kept this thread going so long!
Red Herring
13-06-10, 08:24 PM
You don't take an olive branch when it is offered do you Bear.
I'm still not agreeing with the OP's statement but I think he's moderating it slightly.
I happen to think that people who ride like d1ckheads deserve whatever downfall befalls them, I just don't think you can define a d1ckhead as generally as the OP did.
I don't see it as an olive branch, and I don't consider this a war so one isn't necessary. I have nothing against stuuk1 at all, just about the sentiment expressed in the original post. Not the overtaking bit, the deserving to crash bit. People who ride like idiots don't get a lot of sympathy from me either, that's never been my assertion. I merely think that classifying everyone who rides a particular stretch of road I ride in a way I ride, safely and considerately, is therefore a hooligan and deserves injury is a little bit uncharitable
I happen to think that people who ride like d1ckheads deserve whatever downfall befalls them, I just don't think you can define a d1ckhead as generally as the OP did.
I reckon if you're not endangering others but only yourself, would be a bit harsh to say. Afterall said person would probably be leaving a devastated mother/kid/wife behind.
Or even if someone ends up in a wheelchair for life eating out of a tube cos they rode like a tool, it'll be his mum that's left having to clean up his sh*ite.
edit: though your definition of a d1ckhead is probably someone who endangers others anyway so fair enough. Still, I reckon death or paralysis is a harsh punishment for most crimes, including riding/driving like a knob.
Red Herring
13-06-10, 09:14 PM
I think just about everybody who rides a bike legally (as in has a licence) on a road knows how to ride safely and considerately. If they then make a deliberate decision to ride otherwise then they have to accept the consequences of that. We all know when we are taking risks, and if you do so then you deserve the consequence of it. If you do so and involve others in your risk then you definitely deserve all you get.
If someone rode like a twit and took out your wife and kids i don't imagine you'd exactly wish them a long and prosperous life would you?
I reckon if you're not endangering others but only yourself, would be a bit harsh to say. Afterall said person would probably be leaving a devastated mother/kid/wife behind.
Or even if someone ends up in a wheelchair for life eating out of a tube cos they rode like a tool, it'll be his mum that's left having to clean up his sh*ite.
edit: though your definition of a d1ckhead is probably someone who endangers others anyway so fair enough. Still, I reckon death or paralysis is a harsh punishment for most crimes, including riding/driving like a knob.
Its not just the family, its also the guy driving the car who ends up running the biker over. It would affect alot of people for one persons stupid actions.
As for wishing for the biker to fall of... ok I was being harsh, but if the guy/gal was to fall off and get injured, i'd stuggle to find any sympathy. We've all done the necessary training and know how to ride at whatever standard we do.
We all know the law and we all know why those laws are in place. I agree some laws are there for silly reasons and dont seem useful, but some laws are in place for a reason and that reason is a good one.
I cant be bothered to reply anymore to this post.
If anything I hope this thead has enlightened yourself and others to how other commuters that use the tunnel feel about the riding styles of filterers (I think that made sense...).
At the end of the day, its your choice, you take the risks, not me.
Be careful
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 09:28 PM
We all know the law and we all know why those laws are in place. I agree some laws are there for silly reasons and dont seem useful, but some laws are in place for a reason and that reason is a good one.
I cant be bothered to reply anymore to this post.
Dear God, if I wanted some patronising sh*te I'd go and read the IAM website or a BMW owners forum or something.
31mph! Stone him!
You cannot be bothered to reply to this thread is you admitting your POV on it is full of crap which you cannot support with logic.
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 09:38 PM
Haha ok.
So no intelligent retort then. Why am I not surprised.
We all know when we are taking risks, and if you do so then you deserve the consequence of it.
Not sure if you mean risks on the road or risks in general. I think accepting the outcomes of your risk is different to deserving them. Do you really deserve to not walk for life if you took a risk squeezing in behind a couple of cars when say filtering?
If you do so and involve others in your risk then you definitely deserve all you get.
If someone rode like a twit and took out your wife and kids i don't imagine you'd exactly wish them a long and prosperous life would you?
Yeh well admittedly there is more debate in this regard. Involving others is not acceptable, and if someone took out my wife and kids I would want to hunt them down without a doubt.
But then isn't that the same as saying capital punishment for man slaughter (albeit the road being the executioner)?.
I cant be bothered to reply anymore to this post.
Haha ok.
Just couldn't quite resist eh?:D
So no intelligent retort then. Why am I not surprised.
Ive noticed that the previous post was infact your first post in this particular thread? You have also come in at the end of the thread and decided to comment about something that had nothing to do with how the thread started.
If you read properly, you'd see that the thread was about filtering through a compact tunnel. I notice you aren't from down here and possibly havent ridden/driven through it. So in that case your comment wasn't really needed as it meant nothing.
There was no 'intelligent retort' to your comment for the simple fact that your comment was completely pointless and didn't warrant an enthusiastic reply.
Just couldn't quite resist eh?:D
Ha, dammit you noticed!
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 09:56 PM
Ive noticed that the previous post was infact your first post in this particular thread? You have also come in at the end of the thread and decided to comment about something that had nothing to do with how the thread started.
If you read properly, you'd see that the thread was about filtering through a compact tunnel. I notice you aren't from down here and possibly havent ridden/driven through it. So in that case your comment wasn't really needed as it meant nothing.
There was no 'intelligent retort' to your comment for the simple fact that your comment was completely pointless and didn't warrant an enthusiastic reply.
How many posts I have made in this thread has absolutely no bearing, you've made plenty, and I guarantee I hold your opinion in an even lower regard than you hold mine.
The statement I commented on has everything to do with the thread in that it was a condemnation of a foolish point of view.
From what part of that do you deduce that I haven't read the entire discussion?
I have not ridden through this tunnel, though I would like to think myself capable of deciding when to filter and when not to myself.
Was my comment as pointless as, for example, somebody casting a broad assertion that people deserve some great misfortune for doing something they do not agree with?
-Ralph-
13-06-10, 10:12 PM
Stuuk1 Agrees
thulfi Agrees
Red Herring Disagrees
Paul1984 Agrees
Sid Squid Disagrees
Miss_Undaztood Agrees
ranathari Agrees
Stu Disagrees
arenalife Disagrees
busasean Disagrees
Sosha Non committal
Owenski Disagrees
punyXpress Non committal
Dicky Ticker Disagrees
Ed Non committal
Daimo Disagrees
mustnt grumble Agrees
maxinc Agrees
Bear Disagrees
Speedy Agrees
-Ralph- thinks lots of folk are being pretty pedantic
Red Herring
13-06-10, 10:17 PM
..........
As for wishing for the biker to fall of... ok I was being harsh, but if the guy/gal was to fall off and get injured, i'd stuggle to find any sympathy. We've all done the necessary training and know how to ride at whatever standard we do.
We all know the law and we all know why those laws are in place. I agree some laws are there for silly reasons and dont seem useful, but some laws are in place for a reason and that reason is a good one.
I cant be bothered to reply anymore to this post.
If anything I hope this thead has enlightened yourself and others to how other commuters that use the tunnel feel about the riding styles of filterers (I think that made sense...).
At the end of the day, its your choice, you take the risks, not me.
Be careful
You were doing so well, if only you had said the "riding style of some filterers" you've have almost been there.
Same deal with those white signs, with the red circle around them and the numbers in the middle :wink:
What are those?
Me and my mates think they are to signify the maximum amount of riders allowed on the grid for the Traffic Light Grand Prix
Stuuk1 Agrees
thulfi Agrees
Red Herring Disagrees
Paul1984 Agrees
Sid Squid Disagrees
Miss_Undaztood Agrees
ranathari Agrees
Stu Disagrees
arenalife Disagrees
busasean Disagrees
Sosha Non committal
Owenski Disagrees
punyXpress Non committal
Dicky Ticker Disagrees
Ed Non committal
Daimo Disagrees
mustnt grumble Agrees
maxinc Agrees
Bear Disagrees
Speedy Agrees
-Ralph- thinks lots of folk are being pretty pedantic
Add me to the disagrees please, especially if it means I have to ride to a system with Hi-viz on while I hold up traffic on a BMW.
Red Herring
13-06-10, 10:42 PM
Oh Lozzo, you and I must get together some time....
Overlord
13-06-10, 10:58 PM
stuuk1 fooook off and get yourself a chopper scooter or a c1 with a pin stripe suit and momo helmet... twot
obtw you know that if you ever show up to soho you will be shocked that they park on double yellow lines and break the law, SHOCK HORROR oh no booo hooo awwwwwWWWWWWWWWWWW
you will prolly think that only having one wheel on the ground is a hanus crime worse than being a serial killer, oh well seems your brains are swapped around, need to go and see a doctor...
Red Herring
13-06-10, 11:05 PM
Now that's what I call an entrance. You sure you're in the right place mate?
haha, that is perhaps truly the best entrance to a forum i've ever come across.
See how powerful this thread is. The overlord is here to speak.
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