IT industry [Archive] - SV650.org - SV650 & Gladius 650 Forum

fizzwheel

10-06-10, 05:18 PM

This is what I did

I went to college and retook my GSCE's as I faffed about at school
Then I did a 2 year BTEC in Computer Studies, that had a lot of work experience in it.

One of the work experience placements lead me into getting a job at a company working on their helpdesk.

That gave me a good grounding in IT basics on top of what I learnt at college and taught me how to deal with customers and people. Dont under estimate the people skills side of things...

I have no formal qualifications apart from my BTEC, all the rest has been on the job learning and taking things apart when they were broken and fixing them.

I'd probably say go down the helpdesk route get your foot in the door and then that will allow you to learn and specialise and progress as your skill set builds up.

I'd also probably suggest that going to college and studying a little more might also help. Maybe some suitable A levels or something like the BTEC I did.

MCSE, MCP, CCNA etc all cost money to take and its money that as a school lever he / she probably wont have. Of course getting into a company that is going to train you and pay for it is a bonus to.

From an employer's point of view...

I'd be looking for somebody who had a computer at home and liked doing more with it than just playing games on it. Someobdy who could build a PC from a box of bits, install an operating system on it and who liked tinkering with things would be what I was looking for. Keen, enthusiastic, and willing to try and take on anything and willing to teach themselves things rather than sit on their bum and expect everything handed on a plate.

Dave20046

10-06-10, 05:40 PM

So as not to derail others threads..

I know there are a lot of .orgers out there in the industry, what advice would you give a young teenager who plans to go into the IT industry when they are able to finish school. It appears that their area of interest is in maintenance and repair work.

What qualifications would you recommend or ways to go about this?

None. You don't need any, get a trainee job, get some experience and do well.

Sudoxe

10-06-10, 06:16 PM

Holdup

10-06-10, 06:22 PM

Approach companies and offer to do voluntry work.

I worked in the IT department at the school i was working at as a cleaner, they liked me so much every time i asked to do more voluntry work they let me :D

Maybe because i was free labour but i was happy doing it, they did say though that if they had a position available they would of given me a job

barwel1992

10-06-10, 06:29 PM

Don't. Find another job/career. ITs not worth it.

+1 IT becomes very very tedious

Davadvice

10-06-10, 07:29 PM

Iansv II

10-06-10, 07:30 PM

Don't. Find another job/career. ITs not worth it.

QFE...

anna

10-06-10, 07:48 PM

Thanks for all in the input keep it coming ... it is great to give an overview of the paths to take.

Don't. Find another job/career. ITs not worth it.

This isnt unfamiliar advice I have already tried to impart however, obviously I am now officially old, as apparently I dont know what I am talking about and "in the real world" IT is a thriving industry and he doesnt need a back up plan.

This transformation to "idiot old person who obviously hasnt got a clue about this generation" must have happened overnight :rolleyes:

Sudoxe

10-06-10, 07:49 PM

Thanks for all in the input keep it coming ... it is great to give an overview of the paths to take.

This isnt unfamiliar advice I have already tried to impart however, obviously I am now officially old, as apparently I dont know what I am talking about and "in the real world" IT is a thriving industry and he doesnt need a back up plan.

This transformation to "idiot old person who obviously hasnt got a clue about this generation" must have happened overnight :rolleyes:

Well you can tell him its 20:50 and i'm still working, and very much not at the pub. :(

kaivalagi

10-06-10, 07:55 PM

+1 IT becomes very very tedious
Depends on what is meant by IT, it's a very big subject area....I am a contract developer/tech lead and the work is far from tedious. The only thing that can be tedious is company politics but you get numb to it after a while and politics is in pretty much any job these days.

As an example of my job I just got home from Norwich airport after 3 days in Preston, doing workshops on the next project with other developers. This happens every other week and the rest of the time I am working from home. I am currently working on a C# web service and Java claims system but the next project may be something altogether different. The work is rewarding both in terms of money and satisfaction...I like building things and seeing them working well for the purpose they are meant for...Am I a geek - yes, Am I happy - yes!

I would personally try to get into software development at a young age, if talented its a natural progression on from understanding/maintaining and fixing PCs etc...get involved in open source projects where you volunteer your services and get a name for yourself. Uni is not essential but it will help a great deal because of ill thought out recruitment requirements...I did an electronic engineering degree and MSc in telecoms but I have worked with others who left school after A levels...if you get some good projects under your belt that will/should make the most difference. Open source development can help give a boost...

I just wouldn't restrict to thinking about support roles, the sorts of things that can be taken on are support, infrastructure, database admin, network admin, and development/architecture etc.

I'd suggest taking a look at the job roles on offer out there on the net as you'll get a good idea on expectations and requirements in the industry.

That's my take on things from 15 years in software development...

Any questions just ask, I'd be more than happy to help, through this thread or via PM

fizzwheel

10-06-10, 08:17 PM

Well you can tell him its 20:50 and i'm still working, and very much not at the pub. :(

This is a very important point. IT is not a 9 - 5 with an hour for lunch job. It can involve some silly hours and working under pressure when you feel very very tired and very very *insert expletive of choice* off.

As for IT being dull and tedious, support can be like that, but like I said use it as a way to get in the door and then specialise when you've got some experience under your belt.

timwilky

10-06-10, 09:37 PM

Cant really speak for the support side of things but i have been in programing and DB work for the last 8 years.

I was lucky in that i got into a temp job and asked and asked to get into the systems and they let me.

I now build apps in APEX moving from VB and Access/Excel. as i am still learning i do still enjoy it. I am lucky in that i have a decent job with ok Pay and good hours.

i was looking to go down the support route but as stated thought it would be a bit repedative so decided tp do programing and even though i initialy struggled with it i did get through it.

wish the Lad/Lass luck in what he does.

I would recomend that He/She gets a trade and then looks at getting into what ever they fancy somthing to fall back on. thats what i have done. I hope i don't need to go back to the Tools !!

Don't mention APEX, It has too much potential, we need to keep it nicely wrapped up between those who know.

anyway. Far too long in the business.

My advice for what it is worth. Get a proper job. I was a mechanical engineer, I drifted into IT by having to pick up the manual for a the PDP11 that controlled a ride simulator, at the same time I was having to write data analysis code and working on a Finite Element package.

So having learned Fortran at University, then Pascal & basic on GEC 4080s then 16bit Macro assembler on CA naked Minis, then 6800,6809 assembler and C, Followed by Fortran/basic plus and macro 32 on Vax.

Written TCP/IP firmware on bridge/3com kit. Followed by network services on SunOS/Solaris. Oracle 5,6,7,8i,10. JAVA, C# and visual basic. Forms 2.3/3/4.5/6, Jdev. and now APEX. PHP and .net, servlets, LDAP, JNDI, EJB, Struts.

My claim to fame is I put the first privately owed satellite earth station into China for communication (Data/Voice) between a power plant site and Manchester. so networking includes Cisco routers, ACC routers etc. TCP/IP. ATM, Frame Relay, SMDS. checkpoint Firewall 1 etc.

So I have been around for some years and worked all over the world. You know what. this year I picked up the really first interesting job I have had in years. The control system for a fuel cell test rig as my company wants to try some interesting stuff with adding steam into the fuel gas.

Despite being a project manager, I was asked to do this as :-

1) I was one of the few true systems programmers they still employ
2) I was one of the few engineers that they employ within IT. they are all IT graduates and would be sod all use as they would not understand gas/steam, fuel cells, electricity, heat or control systems.
3) and most important I was the only person within the IT organisation who had ever driven test rigs, knew how to work in a lab environment with potential to write off millions of bucks worth of rig and could inject an element of realism into the project. Despite that being 30 years ago for a totally different company.

End of CV. The advice. Learn a discipline/profession and then learn how to apply IT to that discipline.For example a programmer is 10 a penny. A programmer who can write computational fluid dynamics programmes for airflow over a wing or car body is worth a fortune.

Tim in Belgium

10-06-10, 09:46 PM

The modelling guys in our company (CFD/ACM) earn good money. But they mainly did degrees/PhDs in Physics.... IT people in our company don't earn big bucks apart from managers/project managers, truth be told a lot is contracted out.

I agree with Tim's advice above.

anna

10-06-10, 09:48 PM

Thanks Tim, I think this the best advice in the most useful example I can pass on to him.. I am not sure he will listen at this point though.

-Ralph-

10-06-10, 10:32 PM

Don't. Find another job/career. ITs not worth it.

+1 IT becomes very very tedious

If my son decides to go into IT, I'll kill him!

IT is a evil necessity for the majority of businesses, it's a headache and a cost, and usually treated with unwelcome disdain by c' level management. As such IT is always in the back office and at the bottom of the food chain. It's only there to serve the rest of the business. The business usually has little interest in investing in IT, and that means the people that work in it too, unless they are driven to by a need elsewhere in the business. Most businesses of any size have a Sales Director, a Finance Director, a Director in charge of whatever the product is, possibly a Marketing Director and possibly a Customer Services Director, but how many SME's have an IT Director? In most SME's IT reports into the Finance Director, because he knows how to use Excel (kidding) and nobody else wants it, finance is another back-office function so it fits there, and it's just not important enough to warrant it's own presence at board level.

Find a career where you are one of the people driving progress at the front-end of the business, not providing a service to those people from the back-end. If you had to choose to be a body part, would you want to be on the face or on the ar$e?

squirrel_hunter

10-06-10, 11:22 PM

It appears that their area of interest is in maintenance and repair work.

The first to be outsourced.

Don't. Find another job/career. ITs not worth it.

I was going to agree with that, and to some extent I still do. However, what would you do if you weren't in the industry? I know I couldn't answer that question.

This transformation to "idiot old person who obviously hasnt got a clue about this generation" must have happened overnight :rolleyes:

No. It didn't happen over night, you always had that look about you.

ravingdavis

11-06-10, 12:46 AM

The IT industry encompasses a whole multitude of Sins.

I personally went down the Cisco route, so routers switches, LANs and WANs etc etc. I got a relevant degree from a Cisco backed academy and then applied for graduate positions. I seem to have been pretty lucky and so far have been offered two very sought after jobs.

If the young lad feels he could do university then I would definitely recommend it, I don't mean going to a red brick and doing computer science but something not far removed from my degree which aims to provide skills that are actually useful to industry. I went to Birmingham City Uni, it used to be a polytechnic and hardly has a red brick rep. Something I have found interesting is that during assessment days seeing people with supposedly better degrees than mine from more prestigious universities finding technical interviews nearly impossible.

I've got a cracking job to look forward to now which has made university very worth while, I would say it has been worth it rather than trying to start a career straight out of school.

timwilky

11-06-10, 07:10 AM

If my son decides to go into IT, I'll kill him!

IT is a evil necessity for the majority of businesses, it's a headache and a cost, and usually treated with unwelcome disdain by c' level management. As such IT is always in the back office and at the bottom of the food chain. It's only there to serve the rest of the business. The business usually has little interest in investing in IT, and that means the people that work in it too, unless they are driven to by a need elsewhere in the business. Most businesses of any size have a Sales Director, a Finance Director, a Director in charge of whatever the product is, possibly a Marketing Director and possibly a Customer Services Director, but how many SME's have an IT Director? In most SME's IT reports into the Finance Director, because he knows how to use Excel (kidding) and nobody else wants it, finance is another back-office function so it fits there, and it's just not important enough to warrant it's own presence at board level.

Find a career where you are one of the people driving progress at the front-end of the business, not providing a service to those people from the back-end. If you had to choose to be a body part, would you want to be on the face or on the ar$e?

Whilst in some ways I agree with you. In many organisations it doesn't take much, (Perhaps the appointment of a a dynamic main board IT director to turn things around). He should be able to

a) Be seen to reduce cost of delivery.
b) Deliver business advantage. enable the organisation to work smarter, more efficiently etc. Turn IT from a necessary evil into being an integral business tool.

BigBaddad

11-06-10, 07:23 AM

What qualifications would you recommend or ways to go about this?

Acne, bad breath and no mates.:rolleyes:

Poor dress sense goes down well in an interview. Also gen up on Star Trek.

kaivalagi

11-06-10, 08:06 AM

Whilst in some ways I agree with you. In many organisations it doesn't take much, (Perhaps the appointment of a a dynamic main board IT director to turn things around). He should be able to

a) Be seen to reduce cost of delivery.
b) Deliver business advantage. enable the organisation to work smarter, more efficiently etc. Turn IT from a necessary evil into being an integral business tool.

I totally agree, I've seen this first hand in the last 6 months.

The company I am working at right now had an IT director and now has an architecture team who is listened to at board level thanks to his efforts...because of this we are currently working on a 6-12 month stability piece which provides no new business processes (most see it as a waste of money) but the board understands that it is necessary to move forwards in the long term. This hasn't been the case in quite a few companies I have worked in and is definitely a breath of fresh air...

Maybe a sign of the times, IT is finally getting recognised as a major player in a companies efficiency and process and should be given as high a priority as all other departments if it has the right leadership backing it...

I should also mention that although permanent salary levels really aren't what they should be (for talented and experienced staff), with enough experience moving into contracting certainly pays well.

I am now doing much more in relation to system integration from company buy outs / merges and have also managed the migration of some systems to outsourced teams, so even with volatile situations there is well paid work so long as you can do the job. For info, most of my work really centres around the finance/insurance sector but I have worked in outsource software houses abroad as a development manager too.

suzsv650

11-06-10, 08:10 AM

Im in IT, been in it for about 4 years now- age 22, my Work place has sent me away to do NVQ's and National Certs, Im hopefully starting day release degree this sept with Cisco combined. Im currently in Support at the momment getting up my experiance.

-Ralph-

11-06-10, 09:42 AM

Whilst in some ways I agree with you. In many organisations it doesn't take much, (Perhaps the appointment of a a dynamic main board IT director to turn things around). He should be able to

a) Be seen to reduce cost of delivery.
b) Deliver business advantage. enable the organisation to work smarter, more efficiently etc. Turn IT from a necessary evil into being an integral business tool.

Agreed, but the organisation needs to be of the size to support that directors salary in the first place, then the biggest challenge when the business doesn't already have an executive sponsor as an IT champion, is getting the C' level to think that it would be of benefit. Where this happens is often where you have had a recent change in C' level management. It doesn't take much, it's getting the ball rolling that can be difficult.

I totally agree, I've seen this first hand in the last 6 months.

This hasn't been the case in quite a few companies I have worked in and is definitely a breath of fresh air...

Which is why I said in the majority of businesses.

I see it all the time too, in lots of different organisations, because as a strategic consultant and pre-sales architect, it's part of my job to try and influence such change in thinking, but it's a very hard job if the C' level management are not already thinking down the same lines to a certain extent, and want to see it happen.

Grinch

11-06-10, 09:43 AM

Its crap work... I'd have rather been a plumper, and I would have been if bloody Maggie's government hadn't killed off apprenticeships.

suzsv650

11-06-10, 09:52 AM

quite surprised with the amount of people slating IT...

Davies

11-06-10, 10:07 AM

quite surprised with the amount of people slating IT...

Me too, it's a great industry to get into and the work you do is truly transportable to any other competitor or country, and the pay's pretty good too.

Anna, as has been said I reckon the best starting point would be desktop support because you get to work face to face with "customers" and you get to learn how people interact with applications which is invaluable when/if you got into application development. I started the same way, being interested in maintenance and support but I soon got bored with it because it was quite repetitive. I moved into web development because every project is different and you get to use your brain to think up better solutions to technical issues.

-Ralph-

11-06-10, 10:21 AM

If you definitely want to get into support, try to get a role where you will be exposed to lots of different technologies, at a drop in the deep end level where you will need to learn fast, this usually means part of a small IT team for an SME. Don't go for a large organisation where you will be part of a big helpdesk, with a very defined role. Desktop teams support XP, Vista, Server teams support servers, Networking teams support switches and firewalls, Application teams support databases and applications, etc. You are only a member of one of those teams. What that means is you don't get much chance to develop a broad skill set, and you end up doing the same thing day in day out.

To start off with it's much better if you can find a role where you will have exposure to and will need to learn a wider range, ie: desktop, server, networking, firewalls, application software, etc, etc. It more interesting, more of a challenge, and you will develop a broader skillset.

hardhat_harry

11-06-10, 10:41 AM

Networks - good place to be in.

Support - Gets outsourced, its a pain and high pressure and in a majority of cases low pay

Programming - Most is done in India or China in the big companies

Project Management - Interesting, challenging, stressful but at least the pay is decent

suzsv650

11-06-10, 10:43 AM

Networks - good place to be in.

tis why im pushing for Cisco;)

muffles

11-06-10, 11:58 AM

Not sure about small companies but most large companies recognise the importance of IT as a business enabler. Sure you can go back to pieces of paper, telephone calls between departments/systems, and manually calculating things...but they realise this is a stupid approach.

IIRC my company (and many in my industry I'm sure) have more IT employees than any other type of employee.

600+

11-06-10, 04:35 PM

I have been in IT for 7 years.

I have 2 degrees in Mathematics, Statistics & Operational Research. I decided I didn't want a job as a Derivatives Trader and since I like building PCs I got a job in IT.

I am now a fully certified ITIL Service Manager, earn a good wage for my 29 years of age, have worked for blue chip companies and have a strong CV.

Currently in the process of moving from IT to the Business side to manage a 3rd Party supplier.

IT is an interesting area to work. If you get involved in Project Mgt or Service Mgt or Supplier Mgt you will probably have a job for most of your life.

My advise is that if the kid enjoys building stuff then get him a university degree in an applied science with a business spin to it. Then they have the option to become a techie and risk being offshored to India/singapure or South Africa OR get a job as a project manager / service manager and continue living :)

But all this is my personal opinion, based on the choices I have made in my life and my experiences.

flymo

11-06-10, 04:52 PM

quite surprised with the amount of people slating IT...

me too!

I work for Unilever, I am our global IT architect for client technologies and I love it. IT has massive potential in a career if you want it to, all depends what you get into and your attitude to it.

Dont go for the same old stuff that people did 10 or 15 years ago, focus on the up and coming hot topics and build experience in them. At our organisation we take IT very very seriously simply due to its potential to help us.

Look at cloud computing, digital marketing, love them or hate them look at development in iPad, iPhone, Android apps, mobile computing, exploiting web technologies, look at the potential rise of IT use in developing countries......the list goes on. IT can be vibrant and interesting if you approach it in the right way.

muffles

11-06-10, 05:09 PM

Then they have the option to become a techie and risk being offshored to India/singapure or South Africa

I've worked in IT for about the same amount of time (am also 29) and currently work for an investment bank (front office trading side).

I would say that it is VERY far away from happening (never say never!) except to the most basic level tech people as the offshored people simply never have the IQ to do anything but the most basic instructed tasks.

timwilky

11-06-10, 05:17 PM

Not quite true.

I put some coding work (Java/LDAP integration for a single sign on solution) to a company in Leicester, who got their guys in India to do it. I have to admit a few of them Indians were damm smart.

muffles

11-06-10, 05:20 PM

Maybe they are more part of the company than offshored? I dunno, this is just my experience with any one from TCS (Tata, who do lots of different things).

I think any smart ones end up onshore working direct for my company though.

600+

11-06-10, 05:39 PM

I've worked in IT for about the same amount of time (am also 29) and currently work for an investment bank (front office trading side).

I would say that it is VERY far away from happening (never say never!) except to the most basic level tech people as the offshored people simply never have the IQ to do anything but the most basic instructed tasks.

That is in the banking sector and only in the support for "front desk" functions.

I am also in this sector hence why I have an opinion :)

timwilky

11-06-10, 05:42 PM

More and more stuff is leaving. Our helpdesk is in Kuala Lumpur. At first we had issues, primarily on telephone voice quality. they obviously use VoIP to keep own call costs and must not be using decent codecs.

As a result of the experience, we have now outsourced our tier 2 support for Lotus notes as well. in this case follow the sun Kuala Lumpur, Poland and Brasil

In a few months, our mail, groupware etc migrates over to Microsoft hosted Exchange and sharepoint. Even less work for the techies in the UK/Europe to do.

anna

11-06-10, 07:21 PM

Thanks for all your comments and PM´s .. apart from SH you will be getting a shin kicking when I next see you.

The lad in question I feel has no intention of going to university and whilst is plenty smart enough, is also plenty smart alec enough to go with it.

I had suggested the business management aspect to go alongside with it, however it was shot down quite quickly as he feels there would be no need to do that.

I think the major concern is that the course that he wants to do here (Portugal) isn´t going to teach him very much beyond the basics, i.e here is a monitor etc, and perhaps where each item belongs inside a pc.

I am trying to see if there is other ways of producing a varied discussion with him to show him other avenues of the same field, or provide him with another view point past the one that says he is being some what short sighted.

Your replies so far have been really useful, thank you.

fizzwheel

11-06-10, 07:31 PM

I had suggested the business management aspect to go alongside with it, however it was shot down quite quickly as he feels there would be no need to do that.

He is quite wrong then, its really really useful, because one of the key things I do and have been told I am good at is picking out new technology and then explaining to my Head of Department what it could do and how it could be used to save money. Then theres also the being able to communicate it and the written side, business cases, project documentation etc.

If he thinks he is just going to sit and fiddle about with PC's whilst eating pizza, drinking coke and laughing knowingly at the jokes in the IT Crowd, then he's going to be in for a big shock !

I think the major concern is that the course that he wants to do here (Portugal) isn´t going to teach him very much beyond the basics, i.e here is a monitor etc, and perhaps where each item belongs inside a pc.

Then IMHO that course is a complete waste of time, if he is keen and likes IT he'll know all that already.

Question, are any of his mates wanting to do the same course, is he just doing it because he gets to hang about with his friends or that the course is to easy and he is just asking to do it for an easy ride ?

anna

11-06-10, 07:42 PM

Sadly Fizz you are right on all accounts, hence why I started this thread; to see if I couldnt throw him some ideas without saying "you are being a silly boy, and potentially throwing your opportunities away". I think he has had too many of those talks with his own parents just recently.

fizzwheel

11-06-10, 07:53 PM

Ah... I know somebody else who used to be like that ;)

Thing is, I do like what I do. I liked it when I started and I have always enjoyed it. If he goes into IT with a slacker attitude he isnt going to get very far at all. Because he'll more than likely be completely with some complete geeks for the job. I've decomissioned servers and the helpdesk guys have asked me to take them home because they are building a gaming network and needed a server or a switch or some network cable to get it going. Thats the people that get on in IT in my experience...

If he's got not real passion for it, I'd be inclined to tell him to find something that he does actually want to do. Like has been said earlier, its not a 9-5 job, it can be frustrating, and you really need to love it to get the most out of it and its only really when you push yourself to get the most out of it that you actually get anywhere and its only when you get away from helpdesk type work that you start to earn reasonable money IMHO.

Theres only so much you can do with teenagers, sometimes you need to let them fall and make mistakes otherwise they dont learn... I know I had to learn the hard way a few times because I thought I knew better than my parents / peers did.