View Full Version : Can a off duty policeman prosecute?
Seggons
12-06-10, 08:46 PM
So 20 minutes into the England game I decided to head out on the bike. Roads were lovely and empty it was great. Got onto a certain bit of road and made 'progress'. There's 2 forward facing speed cameras that I always make sure I'm under the speed limit for.
In between the first and second speed camera I was in lane 2 and passed a people carrier then moved from lane 2 to lane 1 and then made sure I was under the speed limit. Anyway I pulled into the fuel station at the end of the road for fuel when a car come up behind and sounds his horn.
I thought at first I'd taken the pump that this person wanted and actually got scared when this angry man was right next to me. Next thing I see is a white card with his picture, a police symbol and some writing which I can only assume is his details. But no sooner had I seen it he took it away.
At this point I took my helmet and gloves off so we could talk better, these are some of the things he said.
"What do you think that driving was?"
"I've got kids in my car."
"I've got enough evidence in the car to take you licence away."
When he said that I looked back I could see the Citroen people carrier, kids, balloons and that was about it. No camera, lights or anything.
"What do you do for a living?"
"Do you want me to call the police?"
I said no, not really.
"I could go back to that speed camera and get the evidence I need."
I never set it off and was way under the speed limit, so unless that constantly record I cannot see how.
Basicly he give me the riot act and I could see he was anti bike. I just bowed my head, took it all in and did my sadist of faces so hopefully he got the satisfaction he was after. Anyway he popped into the fuel counter and asked for them to contact the police. The comical thing was the guy said "an officer needing assistance".
First was a van, then a car, then 10 minutes later another car on blues. The off duty cop then give his side of events to the policeman which consisted of.
"He come past me at well over a ton, he chopped the front of my car off and could've had his knee down he was that far over. He must've set the speed camera off."
At no point did they ask for my side, I felt like giving it to them regardless but this officer was so irate I knew I'd only get myself into more bother.
So after taking all my details down and giving me a stop and search form they all went off to discuss. I just stood there pretty much looking at the ground. When the police officer returned it got interesting.
The police officer: "Since that officer is not from our area it's down to him what he does but he has 2 options. He will iver process you or you'll get a section 59 (I think that was the number but I'm not 100% sure). What this is if you or the bike ever get stopped in the next year riding anti-socially the bike or whatever it is your using will get taken from you. You can now carry on"
This is where I got 100% confused. One minute this off duty cop threatens to take my licence away and arrest me. Next I'm free to go. So I stood there as these cops got in there van I went. I assumed the off duty one was parking his car up to speak to me more. He doesn't return so I slowly got my bike gear on and left with him no where in sight.
Now to the questions.
How much weight does 1 off duty cop in his own car carry?
When he says I'll be processed, what does that mean exactly?
This section whatever, will I get something through the post to tell me I have it?
Is it all just scare tactics?
On the ticket it says I was riding dangerously, can the word of a off duty cop do me for dangerous driving?
Is this a waiting game to see what the post lady brings?
davepreston
12-06-10, 08:51 PM
1 copper his word ,burden of proof , i think you be fine
plod are always on duty
id say trying to scare ya
put it down to experiance
fizzwheel
12-06-10, 08:52 PM
Is it all just scare tactics?
Quite possibly, Now I am no expert on this so I would wait for the resident police officers to come along and advise.
Red Herring
12-06-10, 08:55 PM
Either you were riding like a complete tool or the copper is well out of order. Assuming the later I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Technically an off duty copper can gather evidence just as if he was on duty, so yes if he wanted to he could put together a file and submit it to the CPS for their consideration, but the chances of them running it without another witness are pretty slim. Personally if he had sounded off at me like that I'd have said "Yeah, whatever" and just got on my bike and ridden away. He wouldn't have been able to detain or stop you and that would have been that.
fizzwheel
12-06-10, 09:00 PM
Personally if he had sounded off at me like that I'd have said "Yeah, whatever" and just got on my bike and ridden away. He wouldn't have been able to detain or stop you and that would have been that.
Well I must admit in a similar situation the thought of doing just as you say would have crossed my mind. Once he started ranting at me, I probably wouldnt have even bothered to take my lid or gloves off and just ridden away.
Seggons
12-06-10, 09:10 PM
It did cross my mind to point out he had no evidence against me but he was so full of anger I don't think he would of listened to me. So if this section whatever comes through the post to say that my bike could be impounded if I get caught again can I contest it?
Sid Squid
12-06-10, 09:11 PM
You passed him while he was attending to the kids in the back, when he finally returned his attention to what's outside the windscreen he was shocked to see that other vehicles exist, and got spooked.
Unfortunately for you he happens to be a copper, and economical with the truth.
Taking you entirely at your word for a moment, is the scenario above a possibility, or could you have done - even inadvertantly - something that would cause him to be angry? If not then the possibility that he's a complete and utter liar must be entertained. But we must wonder and question why.
I have before seen circumstances that seem quite innocuous to one party and significantly different to another - ordinarily neither party has a position to abuse disgustingly though.
Biker Biggles
12-06-10, 09:14 PM
Anyone can note down a number and report someone for driving dangerously and I think this is put on some sort of database.If there is any further incident or something involving said vehicle it can be used as some sort of circumstantial "evidence".I assume if a copper reports you it will carry a bit more weight.
If you were not riding like nob here I would be tempted to report the other driver for road rage and overeacting by calling out the local plod as an officer needing assistance.That way he gets put on the database too.Tit for tat.
Seggons
12-06-10, 09:15 PM
Taking you entirely at your word for a moment, is the scenario above a possibility, or could you have done - even inadvertantly - something that would cause him to be angry?
I went past him quickly, I then moved from lane 2 to lane 1. From what I saw in my mirror I was a good 2 to 3 car lengths in front before I changed lanes. From what he saw I took his bonnet off. :smt102
Seggons
12-06-10, 09:18 PM
I would be tempted to report the other driver for road rage and overeacting by calling out the local plod as an officer needing assistance.That way he gets put on the database too.Tit for tat.
There was only me and the off duty cop involved. After speaking to me first off he went into the shop and got a person who works there to call them.
You are saying you went past the camera below the speed limit and he's saying you triggered it. There's the proof that would either support him or you.
If nothing comes through the post don't lose any sleep on it. If something does appear on the doormat you could always ask for the evidence from the camera to help dispute his evidence. But that's assuming the camera is switched on and loaded.
Seggons
12-06-10, 09:33 PM
To be exact I say I know I didn't trigger it and he said I must of triggered it. The speed camera is round a slight bend so I don't think he actually see me go past it because I was too far in front at that point.
Milky Bar Kid
12-06-10, 09:43 PM
Hmmm, tricky. I'm not sure if its the same in England as Scotland but up here, you can't be given the anti-social behaviour warning in respect of driving/riding unless its a S3 RTA which is careless driving or a S?36 RTA which is off road driving, ie, through a garden or park. I'm sure RH or BP will confirm this.
Sounds like the other officers thought it was a load of nonsense to be honest and were just saying what they had to in order to pacify that numpty.
thebluelion
12-06-10, 09:47 PM
He sounds like a right knob. So his view from his vehicle was restricted at certain angles due to the balloons and stuff in his car? He could not have been driving safely himself say you had been overtaking him and he decided to move out and did not see you because of the crap in his car and clipped you would he have called "officer needing assistance" dont think so. Besides you did not trigger the speed trap i say F+++ him pity you did not get his number and say he harrassed you!
"What do you think that driving was?"
"I've got kids in my car."
"I've got enough evidence in the car to take you licence away."
When he said that I looked back I could see the Citroen people carrier, kids, balloons and that was about it. No camera, lights or anything.
"What do you do for a living?"
"Do you want me to call the police?"
I said no, not really.
"I could go back to that speed camera and get the evidence I need."
My response would be:
Get right in his face and loudly say
"You say too much and you say it too loud. You have no right at all to harrass me, now fu*k off or it's me who'll be calling the Police, do I make myself pefectly clear?"
With that, move to get back on bike and if you manage that without the following happening, leave. If he attempted to lay a finger on me to stop me, I'd have swung a couple on him to put him down on the deck. He'd be out of his jurisdiction (off duty, out of uniform etc) trying to forcible restrain you from leaving and you could call it a personal assault if he attempted to do so, which gives you the option of using reasonable force to stop it happening (couple of good well placed punches or a single headbutt from Mr Arai usually does the trick). You can always deny ever seeing a warrant card if needed and just make out he was some raving spittle foaming nutter who gave you some unwarranted road rage.
Guy sounds like he deserved a kick in the balls tbh.
To be exact I say I know I didn't trigger it and he said I must of triggered it. The speed camera is round a slight bend so I don't think he actually see me go past it because I was too far in front at that point.
Where abouts was this mate?
There was only me and the off duty cop involved. After speaking to me first off he went into the shop and got a person who works there to call them.
That was the point you should have hopped on the bike and left shouting "Oi, you fat w4nker, see you in court" and given him the order of the rigid digit.
Seggons
12-06-10, 10:06 PM
As much as I'd love to take your advice Lozzo I cannot swing a punch to save my life. I can manage a slap at best. :lol:
A1, Biggleswade to Sandy part.
fizzwheel
12-06-10, 10:13 PM
After speaking to me first off he went into the shop and got a person who works there to call them.
At which point I would have ridden off.
If the police turned up at my door, I would have said that the off duty officer, was threatening, abusive and angry and that I didnt feel safe and that I didnt believe based on what he had shown me he was who he said he was
I'd say move to a less pikey area. :D
Copper was probably way off his own patch if he was on the A1 heading north.
You could always claim that you could see he was distracted by the unruly children and baloons that were being shoved around the car, so you decided to get in front so he knew you were there. He won't have any defence for that one, and you could always insinuate that he was angry because his kids were playing up and nothing to do with your riding. Keep nibbling away carefully and gently and he'll soon blow his stack, seen it happen loads of times with coppers that have short fuses, which this one obviously does.
Ask him if he's bought any corsets or horses recently, and when he asks wtf you're on about say "Oh doesn't matter, never mind"
husky03
13-06-10, 12:23 AM
My response would be:
Get right in his face and loudly say
"You say too much and you say it too loud. You have no right at all to harrass me, now fu*k off or it's me who'll be calling the Police, do I make myself pefectly clear?"
Guy sounds like he deserved a kick in the balls tbh.
I'm with Lozzo on this one-i'd have told him to get to Feck and buggered off, if he'd have layed hands on he'd have met Bruce Lees scottish cousin.
Seggons don't stand for anyone giving you this kind of $hit, you've got balls mate -use them.
northwind
13-06-10, 12:35 AM
As much as I'd love to take your advice Lozzo I cannot swing a punch to save my life. I can manage a slap at best. :lol:
Then use your special skills- find out where he lives then ride through his hedge :D That'll teach him
Jamesy D
13-06-10, 12:44 AM
Unless he produced a warrant card, or up until that point you can assume that he's a civilian, and treat him as such. As in, tell him to go procreate with himself and ride off. You'd do exactly that if I came up to you and told you what he said, anyone can say they are a Police Officer. Wouldn't be in the wrong as he hadn't identified himself, and he wasn't obviously a police officer (i.e. not in uniform).
Wouldn't condone assault though, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Carbon/reinforced knuckle gloves can add panache to a back-hand slap if that's all you can do...
Seggons, a S. 59 is like an ASBO Plowsie got one & I think it shook him up, but he never heard anymore about it. I got one last November and I've never heard anything more about it & never received anything in writing, so I have no idea if it is actually in force or not, but I ignore it anyway.
It's a good thing to know that no policeman can stop your vehicle unless they are in uniform.
shoulda been like
http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/1/0/8/bitch_slap.jpg
A few years ago I was riding with some guys into eastbourne. We certainly were over the speed limit.
A Police Officer in uniform pulled the 2nd and 3rd guys into a layby to have a chat with him and his colleague, the first guy rode away. I was number 4. They didn't pull me over but out of loyalty to the others I pulled into the other end of the layby.
A few minutes later the Policeman came to have a chat with me. He told me the speed I was apparently doing, but that the camera on the bridge that noted this wasn't yet set up properly so he couldn't pin that on me. He then gave me a Section 59 and told me that if I was caught riding badly in that area within the next year, they could crush my bike.
Never heard anything from them again.
maviczap
13-06-10, 08:07 AM
I doubt you got the off duty coppers rank & number, but I'd write a letter to his Chief Counstable or the IPCC.
Wouldn't achieve much I know, but it would stir the shizzle from the other direction.
He's probably a N Wales copper
Red Herring
13-06-10, 08:17 AM
.....If he attempted to lay a finger on me to stop me, I'd have swung a couple on him to put him down on the deck. He'd be out of his jurisdiction (off duty, out of uniform etc) trying to forcible restrain you from leaving and you could call it a personal assault if he attempted to do so, which gives you the option of using reasonable force to stop it happening (couple of good well placed punches or a single headbutt from Mr Arai usually does the trick). You can always deny ever seeing a warrant card if needed and just make out he was some raving spittle foaming nutter who gave you some unwarranted road rage.
Guy sounds like he deserved a kick in the balls tbh.
Why is it people are always so quick to advocate dishonesty as a first line of defence? He did see what he believed to be a warrant card and he did think he was a police officer, why lie about it?
Punching or headbutting someone who rightly or wrongly "lays a finger" on you is not reasonable force. Pushing their hand away, or if they try and hold onto you pulling yourself free is. You can only up the level of force if you can reasonably show that it was necessary to protect yourself from a genuine fear of harm, which clearly wasn't the case here. The copper actually did things technically about right, (ie: stop, identify yourself, call for local uniform to deal) it's just the way he behaved and his reasons for intervening seem to be pretty unprofessional. And Sect 59 is the most widely abused piece of legislation I've seen lately, don't lose a moments sleep over it.
Then use your special skills- find out where he lives then ride through his hedge :D That'll teach him
:winner:
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 08:32 AM
Sounds like the headbutt would have been well deserved.
Problem is forecourts tend to have CCTV and I doubt you would have got away with it.
I am curious to note what this sect 59 business is all about and whether it is challengable or like a warning which you have choice of accepting.
Punching or headbutting someone who rightly or wrongly "lays a finger" on you is not reasonable force. Pushing their hand away, or if they try and hold onto you pulling yourself free is. You can only up the level of force if you can reasonably show that it was necessary to protect yourself from a genuine fear of harm, which clearly wasn't the case here.
If I'm sitting on my bike and someone tries to hold me back then I am in danger of a possible broken leg when the bike falls on it - in that case a headbutt from Mr Arai is being too kind.
Seggons
13-06-10, 08:38 AM
Seggons don't stand for anyone giving you this kind of $hit, you've got balls mate -use them.
In hindsight I know I should of. But the shock of having an angry man flashing his card saying I'm loosing my licence kind'a got to me a bit. I now see why people take a dislike to police with his attitude, the on duty police from my area were great considering.
Then use your special skills- find out where he lives then ride through his hedge :D That'll teach him
That made me genuinely laugh out loud. :D
Seggons, a S. 59 is like an ASBO Plowsie got one & I think it shook him up, but he never heard anymore about it. I got one last November and I've never heard anything more about it & never received anything in writing, so I have no idea if it is actually in force or not, but I ignore it anyway.
It's a good thing to know that no policeman can stop your vehicle unless they are in uniform.
That's good to know, cheers Stu. :)
I doubt you got the off duty coppers rank & number, but I'd write a letter to his Chief Counstable or the IPCC.
Wouldn't achieve much I know, but it would stir the shizzle from the other direction.
He's probably a N Wales copper
I never actually got his name or anything so I'd end up writing to a bald headed, 5ft 5 angry man. :lol:
Thanks to everyone for replying in this thread, if by interest he does choose to process me I'll keep you all updated. :)
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 08:47 AM
If I'm sitting on my bike and someone tries to hold me back then I am in danger of a possible broken leg when the bike falls on it - in that case a headbutt from Mr Arai is being too kind.
Of course he was trying to drag you off the bike with- as far as you knew- intention of giving you a good kicking while on the floor. Of course there was a real and present danger to your safety. :smt040
To be honest I wouldn't risk it. Not like some scroat outside a nightclub where the coppers are going to hear your tale of using minimal force at a time of great personal risk and go "yeah, really" and leave it at that, if you've just nutted a copper they're going to pick holes in your story left right and center and try get you with anything they can.
Sounds like exactly the wrong sort of attitude/person to be a copper. He was probably only quick to flash his badge and take it away again as he may only be a special constable.
To be fair in that sort of situation you never really know how to act. It all well and good saying tell him to F off and headbutt him, in reality that keyboard warrior talk.
Of course he was trying to drag you off the bike with- as far as you knew- intention of giving you a good kicking while on the floor. Of course there was a real and present danger to your safety. :smt040
To be honest I wouldn't risk it. Not like some scroat outside a nightclub where the coppers are going to hear your tale of using minimal force at a time of great personal risk and go "yeah, really" and leave it at that, if you've just nutted a copper they're going to pick holes in your story left right and center and try get you with anything they can.
Petrol stations have CCTV... nuff said
It all well and good saying tell him to F off and headbutt him, in reality that keyboard warrior talk.
You think? You really don't know me do you.
I'm not a big or violent man, but when riled I take crap from no-one. 2 years as a Royal Marine taught me how to think before I make moves to look after myself and I can still do it today if required.
Seggons
13-06-10, 09:05 AM
He was probably only quick to flash his badge and take it away again as he may only be a special constable.
That was my thinking and I wondered if a policeman's warrant card is different to that of a PCSO. But when the on duty policeman turned up he did check his ID and radioed through to say he was with policeman <numbers>.
Life works in strange ways though, my bike camera only very recently broke and I took it off the bike. If it hadn't been the chances are I would of been recording. I think I'll be leaving it off my bike for now. :D
I never actually got his name or anything so I'd end up writing to a bald headed, 5ft 5 angry man. :lol:
:)
Nuff said lol. He has reason to be an angry man
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 09:25 AM
That was my thinking and I wondered if a policeman's warrant card is different to that of a PCSO. But when the on duty policeman turned up he did check his ID and radioed through to say he was with policeman <numbers>.
Life works in strange ways though, my bike camera only very recently broke and I took it off the bike. If it hadn't been the chances are I would of been recording. I think I'll be leaving it off my bike for now. :D
special is not the same as pcso
Supervox
13-06-10, 09:33 AM
My response would be:
Get right in his face and loudly say
"You say too much and you say it too loud. You have no right at all to harrass me, now fu*k off or it's me who'll be calling the Police, do I make myself pefectly clear?"
With that, move to get back on bike and if you manage that without the following happening, leave. If he attempted to lay a finger on me to stop me, I'd have swung a couple on him to put him down on the deck. He'd be out of his jurisdiction (off duty, out of uniform etc) trying to forcible restrain you from leaving and you could call it a personal assault if he attempted to do so, which gives you the option of using reasonable force to stop it happening (couple of good well placed punches or a single headbutt from Mr Arai usually does the trick). You can always deny ever seeing a warrant card if needed and just make out he was some raving spittle foaming nutter who gave you some unwarranted road rage.
Guy sounds like he deserved a kick in the balls tbh.
Glad to see the anger management classes are working !! :p
But I can't argue with the sentiment !!
Basically he is threatening you with a section 59 Anti Social Behaviour with a vehicle.
What happens is you get issued with a warning under the section which states that if you are seen and reported for similar behaviour or behaviour designed to cause alarm or distress then the vehicle will be siezed.
He shouldn't be whipping his warrant card out at any incident he sees fit, that's for sure. No such thing as off duty, but not in uniform you could have mistaken him for someone impersonating an officer.
To be honest, even if you had cut him up, he should have dealt with it as a civilian until a uniformed officer attended (no life endangerment), i.e being polite and asking you to be a bit more considerate in the future.
I wouldn't let it trouble you.
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 10:11 AM
Thing that gets me with the sect 59 thing is where is the burden of proof?
If you are offered a caution for say assault, you can tell them to get rooted and go to CPS. What is this option with sect 59 thing?
Way I see it this seizure of vehicle is just a way to apply a fine and enrich some robbing pikey tw*t in an impound yard for the hell of it with no legal recourse!
Glad to see the anger management classes are working !! :p
But I can't argue with the sentiment !!
I don't have anger issues, I have coping with d1ckhead issues
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 10:15 AM
if you know someone, or have been affected by someone, who needs a punchin the face. People who need a punch in the face affect the lives of many. There is still no known cure for someone who deserves a punch in the face, except for a punch in the face, but we can still raise awareness
Thing that gets me with the sect 59 thing is where is the burden of proof?
If you are offered a caution for say assault, you can tell them to get rooted and go to CPS. What is this option with sect 59 thing?
Way I see it this seizure of vehicle is just a way to apply a fine and enrich some robbing pikey tw*t in an impound yard for the hell of it with no legal recourse!
You will get a section 59 warning first, then if you repeat you get vehicle siezed.
If you want to contest the warning, best person to speak to is the inspector of the local station.
yorkie_chris
13-06-10, 10:32 AM
So like I say it is applying a fine with no evidence required when they do not have skill to gather enough evidence to satisfy the CPS and gain a lawful prosecution.
Its a well known matter of discretion.
If the constable has reasonable grounds for believing the vehicle has been used in an antisocial way, then yes the warning will be issued.
In the above situation its a difficult one to call, 2 sides to the argument, no independent witness.
For me (my 2p) advice would be given to both parties and sent on their way.
Red Herring
13-06-10, 11:02 AM
Sect 59 isn't an offence as such, it's a power given to the police that allows them to prevent an offence continuing. It follows that you have to have an offence in the first place before it can be used. The two offences are driving other than on a road (not applicable here but think of all those annoying kids on bikes riding around the local park), and driving without due care and attention, and in both case sect 59 can be used where such offences were to the detriment of others.
The problem is lots of officers use a sect 59 warning where they couldn't prosecute for the offence, it's a sort of halfway house for them and they use it instead of just walking away. Now on the second "offence" they can technically seize the vehicle involved, but most forces, mine included, have a presumption that on this occasion the driver/rider will also be prosecuted for the substantial offence (the careless driving etc) so strangely enough a lot more warnings are given than vehicles actually seized, although of course some will try and make you believe that is because the warnings are so effective there is rarely a second offence!
The issue with the wording of the Sect 59 legislation is that an officer can use it if they reasonably believe the offence has been committed, they don't have to prove it has, just that they believed it. Now you can see why it's abused so much.
By the way i think you have to be in uniform to use it, but i would have to get the books out to confirm that.
Originally Posted by facebook
if you know someone, or have been affected by someone, who needs a punchin the face. People who need a punch in the face affect the lives of many. There is still no known cure for someone who deserves a punch in the face, except for a punch in the face, but we can still raise awareness
I did nearly join that group
Biker Biggles
13-06-10, 11:05 AM
So like I say it is applying a fine with no evidence required when they do not have skill to gather enough evidence to satisfy the CPS and gain a lawful prosecution.
Welcome to the authoritarian state.There used to be a tradition of innocent until proven guilty and a requirement for due process.
Both those make life difficult for the authorities so get bypassed these days.
My Grandad was a veteran of both wars and would turn in his grave if he knew.:mad:
christian1000
13-06-10, 11:30 AM
Similar sort of thing happened to me a year ago when my car skidded on some gravel on a corner, next thing ive got a police driving instuctor (not an acutal officer I dont belive) yelling 2cm from my face about how his kids go to school around here with the officer he was instructing standing behind him looking bewildered.
Wrote down my details for "future observations" might have heard sect 59 mentioned I cant remember..but Ive never heard anything since so I wouldnt worry about it.
Supervox
13-06-10, 11:52 AM
I don't have anger issues, I have coping with d1ckhead issues
:smt044 :smt044 :smt044 :smt044
It's surprising really how many people suffer from what is relatively unknown condition - NBPE
Not Being Punched Enough
Biker Biggles
13-06-10, 11:55 AM
Maybe one of our plumbers can elaborate,but is it true that a sect 59 report does not have to be formally issued to you in writing?Its just a listing on a database that can be dragged out later and used against you.
I am curious to note what this sect 59 business is all about and whether it is challengable or like a warning which you have choice of accepting.
In my case, it was accept it or challenge a (Traffic?) Officer's accusation that I was riding about 100mph :-dd
What would you have done? ;)
to say he was with policeman <numbers>.
I thought it was only forum members without imagination that called themselves that :smt040
Maybe one of our plumbers can elaborate,but is it true that a sect 59 report does not have to be formally issued to you in writing?Its just a listing on a database that can be dragged out later and used against you.
Depends, can be written and given to you or details can be taken down in pocket note book, warning given verbally and entered on the system at return to office. The paperwork will then be available for collection from local station.
By the way i think you have to be in uniform to use it, but i would have to get the books out to confirm that.
Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which-
(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988......etc etc
Red Herring
13-06-10, 12:43 PM
Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which-
(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988......etc etc
Thanks, still some grey cells working then...!
Actually I feel that the original OP acted with a huge amount of dignity.
If he had done any of the other suggestions who knows what other charges he would now be facing.
Whilst OP faced a situation he felt he was in the right, he didnīt loose his cool and kept his wits about him whilst the situation unfolded. I for one think he is to be commended.
Unfortunately for you he happens to be a copper, and economical with the truth.
If not then the possibility that he's a complete and utter liar must be entertained.
I used to go to school with a girl who would now be diagnosed as a compulsive liar. Used to tell the school she had a hole in the Heart, her Granny died last night, you name it. She didn't seem to do it to get get out gym class or anything, she was just a bit mental!
In my mid twenties the receptionist at work told a story about a girl she met at a friends 21st birthday party. The girl regaled a grand story about her walking the Sahara for charity and the hardships she had endured. It then transpired from a conversation with the birthday boy, that this girl was his elder sister, who had never been anywhere near the Sahara and was "at it again"!
Guess what, it was the same girl I had known from School, and guess what she does for a living...:plod:
Actually I feel that the original OP acted with a huge amount of dignity.
If he had done any of the other suggestions who knows what other charges he would now be facing.
Whilst OP faced a situation he felt he was in the right, he didnīt loose his cool and kept his wits about him whilst the situation unfolded. I for one think he is to be commended.
Well said!
Still, I bet he has dreams about doing a Lozzo on him!
maviczap
13-06-10, 01:11 PM
Petrol stations have CCTV... nuff said
Pity you didn't have you bike cam running, that would have proved useful in upholding your side of things
Seggons
13-06-10, 02:26 PM
Actually I feel that the original OP acted with a huge amount of dignity.
If he had done any of the other suggestions who knows what other charges he would now be facing.
Whilst OP faced a situation he felt he was in the right, he didnīt loose his cool and kept his wits about him whilst the situation unfolded. I for one think he is to be commended.
Thanks Anna. It does make me think if I had raised my voice to get my point across would he of then used another halfway house bit of law. Possibly charging me with a public order offence then it's a Ģ30 fine or a night in the cell.
To be able to ride away made was a relief.
Still, I bet he has dreams about doing a Lozzo on him!
What goes around comes around I hope. Next time he tries it with someone else he might not be so lucky.
In my case, it was accept it or challenge a (Traffic?) Officer's accusation that I was riding about 100mph :-dd
What would you have done? ;)
Challenge. Done it before and won.
Biker Biggles
13-06-10, 02:40 PM
Actually I feel that the original OP acted with a huge amount of dignity.
If he had done any of the other suggestions who knows what other charges he would now be facing.
Whilst OP faced a situation he felt he was in the right, he didnīt loose his cool and kept his wits about him whilst the situation unfolded. I for one think he is to be commended.
Very much so.Apart from the potential outcome from getting a bit lary you will find that remaining calm and not rising to the bait really infuriates the other party.They want a full scale barny and they aint getting one.One nil to you straight away.:D
Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which-
(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988......etc etc
The reasonable grounds may be based on things witnessed by another though. In this case the on-duty officers that turned up would be perfectly justifiable. At least that's how the similar Scottish version works.
On a more cynical note, it would be interesting to see if that officer submitted an overtime claim for being 'recalled to duty' ;)
Sounds like exactly the wrong sort of attitude/person to be a copper. He was probably only quick to flash his badge and take it away again as he may only be a special constable.
To be fair in that sort of situation you never really know how to act. It all well and good saying tell him to F off and headbutt him, in reality that keyboard warrior talk.
Special Constables have exactly the same powers as any other Constable. It's in the title - Constable.
Perhaps you're confusing them with a PCSO? Two very different entities.
On a more cynical note, it would be interesting to see if that officer submitted an overtime claim for being 'recalled to duty' ;)
:D ha ha.
RavenWire
13-06-10, 03:34 PM
Section 59 can be useful in some cases - for example round here we have plenty of little gobsh.tes that ride all manner of bike (including my first bike :smt092) on the local park behind our house. My partner who works on the park has even been ridden at whilst working. Anyways, once they get hold of them (a rarity to say the least) the issue the sect 59 and if they're caught again the bike doesn't just get seized its crushed.
But to the OP it does sound like a copper abusing his status. Theres plenty of reasons to choose from - anti bike, size issues etc etc. I'd challenge it and state that he was too busy attending to his children and balloons obstructing his view in the car, so when he saw another vehicle it took him by surprise. Good luck though mate, hope nothing comes of it
May be worth ringing citizens advice to see if they have any useful info on off duty police officers rights
Quiff Wichard
13-06-10, 03:57 PM
dont worry seggs../
sounds like he must throw his warrant cazrd around everywhere. prob only just out of probation.. showing off to his mrs who was prob in the car raising her eyebrows and thinking oh god not again..
havnt read threw the whole post.. but if an off duty plod were to rant and rave at me in a petrol station like that, i would have been the one phoning for his colleagues not him.
his behaviour is inexcusable. if thats what he is like under pressure of driving some kids to a destination then he should not be in the force. he was having a bad day and you let him vent his anger because you were a soft touch.
he had no proof. he was in the wrong. and is more than likley a hitler.
if it were me i would report him for his actions.
p.s. my first words would have been 'prove it'.
I've just had a thought.
Knowing the road and the layout of the fuel station concerned*, if this copper was under the impression you were speeding, then surely he wouldn't have got close enough to see that you pulled into the fuel station without seriously breaking the speed limit himself, and to do that with a car full of kids would surely amount to dangerous driving. Off duty coppers in their own vehicles aren't above the law when it comes to speeding offences, even if they suspect a crime or traffic infringement has been commited
Maybe you could throw that at him if this goes any further.
* You can't see who is in the fuel station without first almost driving past the slip road in to it. To get close enough to see the front vehicle's intentions to turn in there you'd have to be pretty close by as it's directly the other side of a roundabout and out of sight of anyone approaching it.
If youre not happy with the ID card being shown, ask to see it again. Might take the wind out of their sails a bit.
Red Herring
13-06-10, 05:50 PM
Of course, unless you happen to know what that particular Force warrant card looks like they could just about show you anything that says "Police" and you wouldn't be any the wiser. You can get just about anything you want over the Internet these days, personally I don't believe anything I'm shown at the roadside and that includes driving licences, insurance certificates or even passports.
Challenge. Done it before and won.
Don't want to derail but, I think I was on 9 points, I had just been doing about 100 and was stopped by a fully equiped unmarked volvo.
Think that was the least he could do without literally giving me a slap on the wrists, so was more than happy to take it.
Just saying that I'm not complaining about the use of S.59 in that situation :D
Don't want to derail but, I think I was on 9 points, I had just been doing about 100 and was stopped by a fully equiped unmarked volvo.
Think that was the least he could do without literally giving me a slap on the wrists, so was more than happy to take it.
Just saying that I'm not complaining about the use of S.59 in that situation :D
Mine was similar. Copper alone in an unmarked Audi 90 Quattro that was on test. They wrote the car off while speed calibrating the speedo on the M1. I'm sure I've recounted the tale on here before. Basically called the copper a liar when he claimed he kept with a GSX750EFE and a GSXR1100 on acceleration up to 130mph. I had the official performance figures from the importer as evidence, and numerous bike magazine test figures to put in front of the magistrates - his Audi was dog slow with a 0-60 time of over 9 seconds and wouldn't hit 120mph against confirmed 1/4 mile test figures each topping 115mph terminal and top speeds of 135 and 165 mph. Case thrown out because he'd obviously manufactured evidence.
Specialone
13-06-10, 07:25 PM
If he had cause to do something he would have without doubt, he was just flexing his puny (im sure) muscles to try and scare you.
Maybe a bit of a jobs worth little hitler?
I wouldnt have stood for him ranting at me though and like lozzo said, what speeds did he do to catch up to you?
I had this happen to me twice in a 3 week period about 10 years ago, both within a mile of each other in dudley, travelling to work in the morning.
I had a golf gti at the time and did drive like a knob sometimes, but the first was, i went round a car on a large roundabout then accelarated upto about 60 in a 40 but was a dual carriageway with no peds or turns etc.
Anyway, he stamps on the gas and follows me, i thought he wanted to race at first cos that car did seem to attract nuts like that, i didnt speed up at all just maintained my speed, he was proper close to my bumper, dangerously close actually and im paranoid by this time, but dont do anything, after next island he whips out his warrant card and is flashing his lights at me, i didnt stop.
After 5 mins of this i get pi55ed off and stop, we stand toe to toe shouting at each other, me protesting my innocence, him saying i was speeding and cut him up at the island which had two lanes for my direction anyway.
In the end i just accepted his moan and calmed down, he didnt take my details.
Second time i was behind a guy who was behind a bus, when this bus decided to stop traffic and wait for ages while a gap in the traffic come up for his mate to come out of a junction which he wasnt turning into, not the most patient person at the time but got fed up of waiting and overtook the car and bus on chevron markings (not turning ones), he then follows me and flashes me, my work is only 10m mins away so just carry on but im pretty sure its a copper as he is not being aggressive like a road rage person would be, anyway he follows me to my works carpark and im on my guard just in case he wants to dance.
He gets out and shows his warrant card and asks what i was doing overtaking on the chevron, i said i thought the vehicle was stationary so overtook.
He said he wanted my details, so because i was at my works couldnt really refuse like i would elsewhere, i said you can have them but you and i both know you cant do anything, he left saying he would ponder further action.
He had just finished his late shift so why he felt it was worth the effort for a zero chance of any punishment i'll never know.
Sorry about the war and peace post ;)
Red Herring
13-06-10, 08:04 PM
Mine was similar. Copper alone in an unmarked Audi 90 Quattro that was on test. They wrote the car off while speed calibrating the speedo on the M1. I'm sure I've recounted the tale on here before. Basically called the copper a liar when he claimed he kept with a GSX750EFE and a GSXR1100 on acceleration up to 130mph. I had the official performance figures from the importer as evidence, and numerous bike magazine test figures to put in front of the magistrates - his Audi was dog slow with a 0-60 time of over 9 seconds and wouldn't hit 120mph against confirmed 1/4 mile test figures each topping 115mph terminal and top speeds of 135 and 165 mph. Case thrown out because he'd obviously manufactured evidence.
See I just have to challenge how those figures have any relevance to an allegation the bikes were speeding or being driven to quickly? What do they prove, everybody knows the bikes will accelerate faster than the car. If the allegation was that the bikes couldn't keep up with the car then the bikes figures are relevant... however in this case if the copper is saying that he was flat out in the car (0-60 9 seconds and top speed of whatever) and either kept up or didn't, as long as he didn't pass the bikes then the bikes were at least doing what the car was, which in anybody's money is over the limit. I can just see your defence...."Your worships, he couldn't possibly have recorded our speed accurately because my bike will do 165mph and he couldn't possibly have kept up". Go on, tell me you really said that?
Of course, I may have completely misread your post and what you are saying is that he alleged you accelerated up to 60/70mph to quickly. Is that illegal then?
He claimed he matched our flat out acceleration beteen 90 and 130 mph. Truth was he was about a half mile behind us and wasn't even close enough to see us any more. We'd first picked him up in town when another mate wheelied out of a petrol station and we followed. The first guy stopped to let us catch up as we got held up by traffic at the fill up and by then he'd noticed the Audi's driver was a copper. He stayed back, me and my Gixer riding mate filtered through town traffic onto an A road and then did a bit of quick burst overtaking to clear cars in the way. Every time we did this the Audi - driven very erratically - overtook too, forcing drivers to brake sharply as he squeezed into gaps barely big enough for a bike. When we got onto the A421 Dual carriageway at Marston he was 1/2 mile behind and us two up front gave it some. We got to the end of the dual where it becomes single and realised that for some reason matey who'd spotted the Audi was a copper hadn't caught up, which by now he should have as he was on a GPz 750 Turbo, so we slowed and waited. By the time he came into view we were slowing for a road block set up for us., he turned around and went the way he'd come from, we stopped for two traffic cars and then found out the Audi was old bill in disguise.
Audi driver clamimed in court that on a very busy A421 he safely overtook every car at speeds up to 90 mph, yet at the same time claimed our overtakes on bikes were dangerous as the gaps we were going for were too small (the A421 is single carriageway leading from Bedford to the M1 and notorious for head ons between cars as it has fast blind bends). He further claimed he was directly behind us when we got on the dual and that he matched our flat out acceleration frrom 90 to 130mph. All of this was bullsh1t. The guy who'd pulled the wheelie was waiting in the wings as a witness to say the copper's driving was erratic, he'd forced other car drivers to take avoiding action and also that when we got to the dual section he was sitting behind a brick lorry and couldn't get past. He also said the copper absolutely nailed the Audi up the dual but got nowhere near us until the single carriageway, by which time we;d slowed to let the guy on the Turbo catch up. The guy on the Turbo was a known hooligan who was due to be sentenced for a number of driving offences shortly so had nothing to lose by helping us out.
Our defence was we were travelling at no more than 60, had managed to safely overtake a large number of slower moving vehicles because bikes are easier to overtake on. To try and do the same in a car was downright stupid and at times the Audi driver put us in danger. Whilst making his statement to the bench he claimed the acceleration match, so I threw a few figures gleaned from VAG taken from the exact same car he'd been in (the only one in UK at the time) and a few bike magazines I had with me. I also questioned him about the speedo calibration, to which he replied "We didnt get a chance to calibrate fully before the car was returned to VAG, the importers" That's when I told him that the car went back to VAG because less than an hour after the incident he wrote the car off on the M1 and then asked if he was still was under investigation for it - he was.
By this time the magistrates had heard enough and basically told us we weren't guilty and free to leave, while he had a word with the copper. We waited outside cos our Turbo riding mate was due to go in later and when the copper came out he had a face like thunder. I heard later he got disciplined by his senior officer.
He lied in court, he deserved everything he got
Seggons
13-06-10, 09:21 PM
Knowing the road and the layout of the fuel station concerned*, if this copper was under the impression you were speeding, then surely he wouldn't have got close enough to see that you pulled into the fuel station without seriously breaking the speed limit himself, and to do that with a car full of kids would surely amount to dangerous driving. Off duty coppers in their own vehicles aren't above the law when it comes to speeding offences, even if they suspect a crime or traffic infringement has been commited
This is the one thing I haven't said on here that has been going over and over in my mind. If I take his words to the officer which were "he was going over a ton I'd say" and as officers don't lie it must be a fact.
That bit of road is also a 50 mph limit. So I would've been covering at least 2 times the distance if he was doing dead on 50 mph. Granted it's not a long stretch of road but by the time I'd stopped at the pump he had already sounded his horn and was right behind me.
There's no way he could've been that close if by his words I was doing over a ton with my bike right over on it's side. But then again I have no more evidence of that then he does of me.
Anyone know what the deal is with Fuel station CCTV? Is there any way I could get a copy or is it just officers that can get a copy? Could I use the Freedom of information act?
Use every bit of information you can get your hands on - CCTY is available for all to view. Also, that camera in Beeston is 99% of the time live, so if you passed it at 50 and so did he, he'd have to be going bloody well in a people carrier to catch you if you whupped up to a ton. If you were doing a ton before that then he was most definitely way over the speed limit for about a mile and a half... with his kids in the car.
Call his bluff and then add that even a police officer is subject to the speed limits on public roads when not on duty and in his own vehicle. Tell him he can go ahead and summons you then ask him if he'd like to stand in front of a magistrate and take his chances under cross examination of a conviction for dangerous driving, as he had his kids in the car too and he'd have to incriminate himself to secure a conviction against you.
If he counters that with a section 59 then tell him to get f*cked and advise him that his senior officers will be hearing from your lawyer very soon.
Seggons
13-06-10, 10:12 PM
With the aid of paint here's the outlay of the road.
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3721/policeha.jpg
Where I've put "the overtake", that is actually where I was in front.
Red Herring
13-06-10, 10:31 PM
He claimed he matched our flat out acceleration beteen 90 and 130 mph. Truth was ,,,,etc etc
Great tale, wish I'd been there!
With the aid of paint here's the outlay of the road.
Where I've put "the overtake", that is actually where I was in front.
So all this happened inside the 50 limit at Beeston? Even more evidence that he had to drive like a complete **** (or be lying through his back teeth) to accelerate, catch up and then follow you directly into the fuel station, if what he says is true.
Gabriel2k
14-06-10, 09:05 AM
Just wanted to put my 2p in that I think that you did the right thing by keeping your cool Seggons, always the best thing to do when a situation like this comes up as it is so unexpected. However I will add that I think I would have tried to ride off as the off-duty police officer sounds like he was suffering from road rage and if anything ever comes up from it that would be your defence.
Quiff Wichard
14-06-10, 09:14 AM
where's the vid of it all Seggs?
you still loading it to You tube lol
suzsv650
14-06-10, 09:45 AM
havnt read threw the whole post.. but if an off duty plod were to rant and rave at me in a petrol station like that, i would have been the one phoning for his colleagues not him.
his behaviour is inexcusable. if thats what he is like under pressure of driving some kids to a destination then he should not be in the force. he was having a bad day and you let him vent his anger because you were a soft touch.
he had no proof. he was in the wrong. and is more than likley a hitler.
if it were me i would report him for his actions.
p.s. my first words would have been 'prove it'.
Snap
Do him for harassment.
BigBaddad
14-06-10, 09:49 AM
Sorry Scott, they'll lock you up with Binky and through away the keys.
Luckypants
14-06-10, 10:14 AM
<snip> And Sect 59 is the most widely abused piece of legislation I've seen lately, don't lose a moments sleep over it.
Sect 59 isn't an offence as such, it's a power given to the police that allows them to prevent an offence continuing. <snip>
The problem is lots of officers use a sect 59 warning where they couldn't prosecute for the offence, it's a sort of halfway house for them and they use it instead of just walking away. <snip>.
This is the one thing I haven't said on here that has been going over and over in my mind. If I take his words to the officer which were "he was going over a ton I'd say" and as officers don't lie it must be a fact.<snip>
This is why we should lose sleep over these things. As Y-C was alluding to earlier in the thread, it is a shoddy piece of legislation that allows police to hand out a punishment with no evidence. Police officers do lie, regularly, we only get to hear of it when they are found out.
Maybe one of our plumbers can elaborate,but is it true that a sect 59 report does not have to be formally issued to you in writing?Its just a listing on a database that can be dragged out later and used against you.
can only comment on Manchester but no it doesnt have to be formally issued here. In fact we dont even have to issue a warning.....it can be seized on the first incident.(this is more for off road bikes causing annoyance though tbh)........
we do have a form that we are to fill out at the roadside and issue part of it to the rider/driver. But it can also be recorded elsewhere...i.e a notebook......dont think we actually send anything through the post to the rider/driver. Well i know we dont in the traffic unit, so unless there is another unit somewhere that does i dont think you receive anything.
Like some of the others have said its a bit crap really however its very good when used in the right situations i suppose.
I havent read the whole post so appologies if someone has already said my last.
I cant believe he actually spoke to you like this pal.......sounds like he had a bit of road rage himself, not a good image for a cop. Even if your driving/riding fell below what would be expected, still very unprofessional.
i wouldnt loose any sleep over it pal........i would imagine you wont hear anything now.....or at least i wouldnt have thought so.
seems the officers in uniform thought it was a load of balls too and therefore left it for the OIC to deal with......which i would imagine if its out of his force area then he wont bother.
so does that mean it's technically possible for an officer to seize your bike and crush it without a shred of evidence?
so does that mean it's technically possible for an officer to seize your bike and crush it without a shred of evidence?
Our civil liberties have been encroached upon so much that they now CAN arrest and detain you without evidence, so seizing your bike is easy. :( Remember the 33bhp thread - no evidence there.
Like some of the others have said its a bit crap really however its very good when used in the right situations i suppose.
I'll have to disagree here. Section 59 gives the copper the powers of judge, jury and executioner - that is not the way British justice works.
If a copper was to slap a section 59 on me I'd refuse to accept it and insist he took me to court, where I'd be able to challenge his roadside decision and leave it up to the magistrates to decide what the outcome should be.
Section 59 has no place in British law and goes against everything laid down in the constitution of this land, most of which are also laid out in Article Ten of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights)
so does that mean it's technically possible for an officer to seize your bike and crush it without a shred of evidence?
Basically, yes. If you find a particularly vindictive copper (and believe me there are some around, a couple of whom are known to me) then they can make your life hell and cost you financially by crushing your vehicle... and there's currently not a thing you can do about it.
so does that mean it's technically possible for an officer to seize your bike and crush it without a shred of evidence?
its not very often we crush the vehicles. Or at least down here we dont. Section 59 when not being abused as others have said is a very good tool.......i.e the young boys and girls razzing there quad bikes and off roaders across the field whilst peoples children are playing football etc. These are the people we tend not to even give a warning to......
You can collect your vehicle in the same way as you would if it was seized for another reason. I.e attend the recovery agent with the correct documents and pay the realease fee.
the vehicle would only be crushed or sold on is if you decided NOT to reclaim it.
I'll have to disagree here. Section 59 gives the copper the powers of judge, jury and executioner - that is not the way British justice works.
If a copper was to slap a section 59 on me I'd refuse to accept it and insist he took me to court, where I'd be able to challenge his roadside decision and leave it up to the magistrates to decide what the outcome should be.
Section 59 has no place in British law and goes against everything laid down in the constitution of this land, most of which are also laid out in Article Ten of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights)
sorry lozzo but it is a good tool. and again i say when its used properly. Yes it does get abuse because certain officers will issue it for a speeding vehicle. is this wrong?????
i would say most times yes it is wrong. but you have to judge every incident on its own merits. if its a case of the local young lads out every frinday and saturday night racing there cars up and down a local street and no body will support a prosecution then it would be used. And why should it not be...........
Again if its a biker out on a country road and he/she decides to open the bike up as there is no other vehicles around and then a passing patrol....then no it shouldnt be used.
You can collect your vehicle in the same way as you would if it was seized for another reason. I.e attend the recovery agent with the correct documents and pay the realease fee.
Great, so now we're being indirectly fined by profit making companies who charge for collection and storage. So if the copper has a contact at the recovery company he can rake a few quid in from backhanders for bringing them work... and don't tell me this isn't the case, it's been happening round here for years in accident situations where the police have a number of prefered recovery firms. Funny how only one of them gets a huge amount of calls from the Police.
i would say most times yes it is wrong. but you have to judge every incident on its own merits. if its a case of the local young lads out every frinday and saturday night racing there cars up and down a local street and no body will support a prosecution then it would be used. And why should it not be...........
Because you're a copper, your job is to gather evidence, and act on it to bring a case in court against the offenders. If you've witnessed these youths racing then you have all the power you need to bring a case in court against them. You as a copper are not by virtue of the law of this land given the power to punish, you can only bring an offence to the attention of those whose job that is.
Section 59 is in direct contravention of civil liberties in this country. I support the police fully in what they do to maintain law and order, but giving them these sort of powers is beyond acceptable.
Great, so now we're being indirectly fined by profit making companies who charge for collection and storage. So if the copper has a contact at the recovery company he can rake a few quid in from backhanders for bringing them work... and don't tell me this isn't the case, it's been happening round here for years in accident situations where the police have a number of prefered recovery firms. Funny how only one of them gets a huge amount of calls from the Police.
I cant say that this doesnt happen how could i........Im just a traffic cop. All i can say is if i think its appropriate to seize a vehicle, and to be honest section 59 isnt one that i use often, then i will. In GMP we have a different recovery agent, sometimes more than one per division. This works on a rota basis. It doesnt even matter seizure is out side a recovery depot. If its not them on the list it still goes to the next one.
I also dont know what happens with the recovery money when it is paid however not every copper is bent lozzo........
I also dont know what happens with the recovery money when it is paid however not every copper is bent lozzo........
The point being, there's no protection against the few that are.
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