Self Combusting Rectifier - just caught it.

[no_akira]

Why does my SV hate me ?

I've tried to love it I really have.

Coming back from work just now, whats that smell? why is there black smoke coming out the back of my SV passsenger seat? My bikes on fire Arrghh! :smt087

Managed to pull over and unlock the back seat, rip out all the bits and bobs and down the side near the rectifier I can see a nice yellow flame thats just about to catch that nice plastic rear panel. I managed to dowse the flames with a can of diet coke.

Got it back home and have removed the rectifier, it looks like it just exploded into flames. What's that all about ?

[Paul the 6th]

yarp sounds like your bike hates you buddy... :(

[no_akira]

As jokey as I make this incident sound I do now have even more misgiving about the SV. I could quite easily have been left with a burnt out bike and all the hassle of claiming for an insurance write off and having to find a replacement bike.

I don't mind if a part fails, that's just wear & tear, but to explode into flames behind a plastic panel that involves the use of 4 tools to get at it. Seems kinda irresponsible by the designers / Suzuki.

Q: Should I raise this with Suzuki UK ?

Q: Whats the best quality (least likely to explode into flames!) rectifier for the SV ?

[SV650Racer]

It can and does happen to rectifiers. Its not related to any particular make or model either. Bikes can and do go wrong sadly.

You need to run a check on the genny as over charging is a common cause of failure.

[no_akira]

Cheers SV650Racer It can and does happen to rectifiers. Its not related to any particular make or model either. Bikes can and do go wrong sadly.The voice of reason / the cold slap to the mush. I was getting a bit hysterical there, apologies. Its just i've had a couple of old cars have electrical fires (many moons ago), always around my own poorly fitted alternators, rubbing wires to earth(-) but never on any of the bikes i've owned, over 10 years.

I kinda assumed that they where solid state type devices that just fail, not burst into flames. When you look at them they just look all metal, not much to burn. Its only when you turn them over and see a sort of electrical device set in a big block of epoxy resin.

I might start carrying a little bottle of water under the passenger seat from now on......

[tactcom7]

I might start carrying a little bottle of water under the passenger seat from now on......

make it holy water, you might have more luck that way ;)

[Berlin]

I might start carrying a little bottle of water under the passenger seat from now on......

How many times has it happened in your biking career? :)

I've been biking since I was 15 (now 40) and I've never had one go on any of the bikes I've had. (lots)

and as an side, I've got a 600 Gixxer Reg Rec if you need one! :)

C

[simesb]

I might start carrying a little bottle of water under the passenger seat from now on......

Not sure that's what you really need for an electrical fire...

[no_akira]

Oh wait simesb I'll just thumb through the selection of extinguishers that I have strapped to my bike, oh there it is the CO2 with the black square, thats the one I should have used, silly me!

Well a nice big squirt from a diet coke bottle, followed by water sucked up from a nearby puddle at least avoided the insurance claim and got me home.

Perhaps I do need an exorcism carried out on my bike ? :smt096 do do dodo do do dodo dodo do ........ (tune from Twilight Zone)

[no_akira]

Quick update on this...
For some reason none of the replacement Rectifiers on ebay (even oem ones) look like my frazzled rectifier ? My rf looks like this...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-GSXR600-Regulator-rectifier-GSXR600-SRAD-/370407708288?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts ( model RS41 33C1 29 2D16 )

Q: Could this be the reason for the spontaneous combustion maybe, rectifier from a totally different bike ?

[mikerj]

The GSXR rectifier/regulator is a common swap for the fragile SV ones, sounds like the previous owner has suffered a similar problem at some stage...

[SV650Racer]

I personally have never had an issue or had a customer that has had an issue with the reg/rec on any year of SV650. I certainly wouldnt say the SV reg/rec is fragile by any means. More likely the problem is over charging and you ideally need to check the charging system properly, ie ensure the genny isnt causing an issue before swopping out to any other make of reg/rec as swopping make wont cure a problem with the genny!.

Charging system check first!

[no_akira]

I'm in agreement with the cold voice of reason that is SV650Racer.

I bought the bike from a dealer in the area and he has a lot of broken bikes out back for which he may / may not have swapped it off one of these (i'm not accusing anyone here). But regardless of that something earlier in the chain is knocking out the rf and it all seems to points to the alternator / gen.

There has been a history (within my ownership) of electrical problems on this bike. From killed batteries. Indicator bulbs where the contact point lead(Pb) looking burnt / flatened. Was doing the classic fast flashing indicator or only the front bulb flashing. Solved once I'd filed / refreshed the contact points on all 4 bulbs.

I know from my youff and old bangers that when it comes to alternators you just have to stump up the cash for that reconditioned unit if you want to save yourself a load of hassle.

Saying that I did carry out a £12 carbon brush (off ebay, guy in scotland) replacement on my VW Passat windscreen blower recently. VW where asking £180 for a replacement unit. Ca-Ching!

Q: Could it be my style of riding, lots of short sharp, high revs acceleration, i'm not the most conservative rider ?

Q: How involved is the gen replacement, is it under the oil filling hole, round plate thing ?

[SV650Racer]

Genny is under the left hand case cover. Fairly straight forward to do. Wont be anything to do with riding style.

[yorkie_chris]

I personally have never had an issue or had a customer that has had an issue with the reg/rec on any year of SV650.

More likely the problem is over charging and you ideally need to check the charging system properly, ie ensure the genny isnt causing an issue before swopping out to any other make of reg/rec as swopping make wont cure a problem with the genny!.

Normally I have a lot of respect for your opinions but I have to disagree with you here on a fundamental level. As I think you're giving a backwards view on the situation.

a) I have seen lots of reg rec failures on the SV which I have personally verified to be the reg rec at fault with no other charging system issues evident upon direct and repeatable testing.

b) How can a generator issue result in overcharging? The SV genny is pretty robust, it's dead simple and gives a 3ph output. What conceivable fault here could cause overcharging? Shorting to earth would result in undercharging.

OTOH, reg recs can and do cause (well, allow) overcharging by not regulating properly. Mine did, it was supplying 18V to the battery, which not much of the bikes electrics enjoyed very much. Replaced the reg rec and the genny is still going strong 20K+ later.

I agree with checking the generator*. It's easy to do without taking the casings off though.

*And other associated wiring, scrub any corrosion off or even wire the new reg direct to the battery for enhanced reliability. Simple = Good. Modern and good quality MOSFET regulators like CBR are also good.

[SV650Racer]

Normally I have a lot of respect for your opinions but I have to disagree with you here on a fundamental level.

a) I have seen lots of reg rec failures on the SV which I have personally verified to be the reg rec at fault with no other charging system issues evident upon direct and repeatable testing.

b) How can a generator issue result in overcharging? The SV genny is pretty robust, it's dead simple and gives a 3ph output. What conceivable fault here could cause overcharging? Shorting to earth would result in undercharging.

OTOH, reg recs can and do cause (well, allow) overcharging by not regulating properly. Mine did, it was supplying 18V to the battery, which not much of the bikes electrics enjoyed very much. Replaced the reg rec and the genny is still going strong 20K+ later.

I agree with checking the generator. It's easy to do without taking the casings off though.

I said "I personally" and therefore in my opinion I find them to be pretty robust. Now GSXR600 06 is another matter, have changed plenty of those even on 2 mile old bikes. So all in all the SV650 rate of failure I have seen is very low or non existant from what I have seen. Neither have we been asked by anyone to purchase a OEM or aftermarket Reg/Rec. I have sold plenty of Honda ones:cool:

Over charging can and will cause a reg/rec to fry itself. I only stated about running a test on the genny as alot of people dont, will just replace the reg/rec when in fact the genny also has a problem.

Maybe my wording wasnt clear - i often type in between doing something else..and its a fact women cant multi task!

[yorkie_chris]

Over charging can and will cause a reg/rec to fry itself.

This is what I disagree with (testing the genny is a good idea just to check).

Overcharging is caused BY the reg rec.

Rectifier = make 3 phase AC from genny into smooth DC
Regulator = control voltage down to 14.2 from the 50V plus from the stator.


Sort of genny we have on SVs is 3 phase permanent magnet type, aye?

So, this generator is a bit of a daft lump, it puts out a voltage based on what rpm it's spinning at. It charges at full whack all the time. It's not like the old GSXR's or a car with a separate field coil to control voltage.
Thus, since it's always charging at full capacity for that rpm, it physically cannot overcharge anything.

Simply, if your charging voltage is too high, the regulator has failed and that is that. No other part of the system has any part in keeping the voltage down. (voltage too low is another matter)



If you have a different understanding of charging systems I'd be glad to hear it and revise my own ideas.

[SV650Racer]

This is what I disagree with (testing the genny is a good idea just to check).

Overcharging is caused BY the reg rec.

Rectifier = make 3 phase AC from genny into smooth DC
Regulator = control voltage down to 14.2 from the 50V plus from the stator.


Sort of genny we have on SVs is 3 phase permanent magnet type, aye?

So, this generator is a bit of a daft lump, it puts out a voltage based on what rpm it's spinning at. It charges at full whack all the time. It's not like the old GSXR's or a car with a separate field coil to control voltage.
Thus, since it's always charging at full capacity for that rpm, it physically cannot overcharge anything.

Simply, if your charging voltage is too high, the regulator has failed and that is that. No other part of the system has any part in keeping the voltage down. (voltage too low is another matter)



If you have a different understanding of charging systems I'd be glad to hear it and revise my own ideas.

If the reg rec isnt working properly and not regulating the voltage properly it can fry itself. I wasnt relating it to any other part of the system other than to suggest checking the genny as part of the fixing it process is a good idea. Im not the techy person, Steve is but this is my bare bones explantion of it that doesnt confuse a customer that often doesnt even know what a reg/rec is let alone the fact their bike has one.

[yorkie_chris]

More likely the problem is over charging and you ideally need to check the charging system properly, ie ensure the genny isnt causing an issue

If the reg rec isnt working properly and not regulating the voltage properly it can fry itself. I wasnt relating it to any other part of the system other than to suggest checking the genny as part of the fixing it process is a good idea. Im not the techy person, Steve is but this is my bare bones explantion of it that doesnt confuse a customer that often doesnt even know what a reg/rec is let alone the fact their bike has one.

That first bit there is what caused misunderstanding i.e you saying genny issue could cause reg failure poss including a fire.

Anyway, misunderstanding is rectified :)


On a more philosophical level, it's not right to simplify a point when that can gloss over a pivotal detail, if someone doesn't understand it you just have to take longer to explain. Then again you know what I think of people who get their bikes serviced at main dealers :mrgreen:

[SV650Racer]

That first bit there is what caused misunderstanding i.e you saying genny issue could cause reg failure poss including a fire.

Anyway, misunderstanding is rectified :)


On a more philosophical level, it's not right to simplify a point when that can gloss over a pivotal detail, if someone doesn't understand it you just have to take longer to explain. Then again you know what I think of people who get their bikes serviced at main dealers :mrgreen:

TBH ive tried explaining in detail and if I cant I get Steve to do it..99% of people then stare at you with a eyes glossed over look and you can see its going straight over their heads. Most just want to know its getting fixed.

[yorkie_chris]

Ahh but on here when people are going to fire in and fix it themselves, the details are pivotal. Especially in electrics where you need to understand before you can diagnose. and it is hardly a complex system (thus confirming my views on dealer servicing customers ;))

TBH, in this case not much doubt that the reg rec needs replacing, since it was on fire :)


I do think the SV regs are pretty p*ss poor though. They're very old tech with a variable output, the MOSFET ones work a lot better. This can be seen just from the voltage output. The SV ones go all over the place, the modern ones sit at 14.2V, bang on.

[no_akira]

Just been thinking over how I was riding when the rf went puff. I've always been a big believer in machinery fails when its running style changes (my own little zen thing).

Basically I was crawling along in first (wouldn't normally be in first, because of a step bank in the road had to drop a gear, It had gone into 1st by mistake) with the clutch depressed the engine was reeving higher than sounds comfortable, normally within a second you would ease back on the accelerator. I let it reeve for about double that, about 3-4 seconds. I was in back street trying to find a shop. It was at this point I vaguely remember a "pssstttt sound". Back into second move off and thats when I smell (big nose) electrical burning / see acrid black smoke.

Another change to riding style was the 2200 miles (in 5 days) that I covered a few weeks back riding midlands - Paris - London. Once across the water my average speeds (70-90mph UK) where 80-110mph cruising.

[yorkie_chris]

It makes no difference, if the reg was not happy giving you good charging at whatever revs you want... it was knackered.

Simply, reg needs to do its job from tickover to redline. Only takes one moment of 20V+ to completely fry your bikes electrics, ECU, clocks, lights the lot. Not safe.
This can happen at tickover, or that one odd time you rev it to 9k.

[dizzyblonde]

Nowt to do with riding style. Mine has broken recently....and that started from it being layed up for a while. Its done 10k + of varying riding from constant peage speeds of 90+ for hundreds of miles at a time, to gentle bimbling to and from work of a few miles, over a three years. (not my sole bike)

They just go plop.

[toby_smith]

My reg/rec went and took the battery with it. It now has a R6 reg rec in it, mainly because after receiving two duff pattern parts the guy who sorted it dug an old one he had out the back out and adapted it.

Haven't had any issues with it

[no_akira]

Its funny didn't the airlines say a similar thing about pilots flying style and over use of the rudder on American Airlines (this was how they were trained) and which was later proved to lead to catastrophic failure of the tail rudder.

You can never test for every possibility, a million monkeys and a million type writers (SV's) situation.

Hypothesis: When an already failing rf is exposed to un-loaded high revs in 1st gear for more than 3 seconds it may burst into flames ?

[Sid Squid]

Hypothesis: When an already failing rf is exposed to un-loaded high revs in 1st gear for more than 3 seconds it may burst into flames ?
I think you're failing to understand either what Chris is saying or how the system works. It doesn't matter what gear you're using or the road speed you attain or the load on the engine - engine speed is the only variable of the alternator.
It is possible that had you never ever revved it past, say, 5000 rpm and your regulator was not the best, then abandoned your former habits and had run the engine at a higher speed the resulting higher voltage could, note could, be the straw that broke the metaphorical camel's back.

Maybe.

[yorkie_chris]

It is possible that had you never ever revved it past, say, 5000 rpm and your regulator was not the best, then abandoned your former habits and had run the engine at a higher speed the resulting higher voltage could, note could, be the straw that broke the metaphorical camel's back.

Maybe.

But if you never rev the bike past 5000 rpm then you probably eat fairtrade tofu and leave white stains wherever you sit.

I would bet you that reg was either overcharging the bike or undercharging it before it caught fire. Either way doing damage to your machine.

We will never know, but check your battery for swelling.

[yorkie_chris]

Its funny didn't the airlines say a similar thing about pilots flying style and over use of the rudder on American Airlines (this was how they were trained) and which was later proved to lead to catastrophic failure of the tail rudder.

You can never test for every possibility, a million monkeys and a million type writers (SV's) situation.

As Y_C BEng I wouldn't know much about that ;)
You can't draw a parallel there, you've got a situation of stresses which something is designed to take, and the use going beyond designed in fatigue safety factors. End of the day, you put aluminium through enough stress cycles then it will snap.

You can test for every possibility, there aren't that many, it's not a 3d dynamic stress and fatigue problem which you need a million hours of FEA simulation to solve for an estimation of fatigue life. It's a charging system... use a multimeter... it will tell you SV regs are crap and to change it for a MOSFET type with clean connectors...

I'm not trying to be catty, but don't overcomplicate things.

[Sid Squid]

I would bet you that reg was either overcharging the bike or undercharging it before it caught fire. Either way doing damage to your machine.
I suspect you're right. However I personally experienced a similarly fiery reg/rec failure about 15 or so years ago, up until that very trip everything had been fine, and even after putting the fire out the still well charged battery allowed me to finish the remaining 100+ miles of the journey. So whilst I suspect you're probably correct, there still remains the possiblity that it could, just possibly, have been OK right up 'til it popped.

Maybe.

[no_akira]

OK I can accept it could be a one off event, fine. I'm not intentionally being p r i c k ly, i'm just trying to provoke discussion and awareness of what could be for a less cool headed rider (without a bottle of coke), quite a serious situation.

Something to think about: Why is there not a warning indicator for rf failure on bikes as there is on cars when you turn the ignition on. (this is maybe a thread in itself)

My last comment (seriously, no more from me) to this thread. As much as I talk about the SV's failings (foibles - all bikes have 'em) it is an immensely enjoyable bike to ride.

100k Sports car performance for Austin Metro money + 50mpg !

[yorkie_chris]

Something to thing about: Why is there not a warning indicator for rf failure on bikes as there is on cars when you turn the ignition on. (this is maybe a thread in itself)

It would be nice. I considered fitting a voltmeter (when I get round to minimalising the charging system to reduce weight on crank :smt120)

TBH failure is rare considering number of SVs and number of miles travelled. But that said if I bought another SV I'd put a MOSFET RR on there as safety precaution. I'd rather spend a tenner and do an hours work to remove a possible breakdown.

[Sid Squid]

Why is there not a warning indicator for rf failure on bikes as there is on cars when you turn the ignition on.
Car charging systems are slightly, but importantly, different and the light you refer to is not an 'a bit's on fire' warning but a charge indicator, this is effectively operated from the regulator of the car's alternator - precisely the bit that's duffed if the rather simpler system of your bike is not working.
It's not that it couldn't be done, but along with not having that warning we don't, typically, have lighting failure warnings or OAT warnings or a number of other things that cars have the space and complexity for but, generally speaking, are an undesired complication on our light, lithe and simple motor-bicycles.

[yorkie_chris]

Aprilias have a voltmeter, and need it :-P

[Sid Squid]

Even my old GT550s have a voltmeter - and don't need it :D.

[Biker Biggles]

Be wanting electric windows next,and parking sensors.

[no_akira]

I'm still seeking a final solution on this and was just about to start a new post on my new theory, failure due to poor "Heat dissipation" with the rf being insulated inside a tight plastic box directly above an efficient heat convector (stainless exhaust). When I found this thread by Atlan from last year !

yep - common problem - check the threads, it particularly affects people who do frequent long distance journeys.

It seems that the root cause of the problem is a combination of a generator that chucks out a lot of power (mine gives about 130v at 5000 rpm), coupled with a regulator that is s*#t, and receives desperately inadequate airflow.

Ther are several proposed cures. First however, check the earths etc to be sure.
Some people suggest moving the regulator to a position it receives more airflow. Not too succesful and can expose it to a bit too much weather.
Others have fitted 12v PC fans designed to cool the computer to the front of the regulator. Whilst this increases the airflow, personally I have doubts about a PC fan designed to run in a clean and stationary environment. It seems a lot of faff, and I suspect it is only a matter of time before the ball bearings and delicate parts get full of road cr*p and damp the fan seizes or packs in.
Another option is to build a heat sink from an appropriate piece of aluminium or similar and bolt it behind the rectifier.
The final solution is to sack off the suzuki rectifier and fit something else, even if it means modifying the wiring loom
I personally have opted for a combination of the above, fitting a beefier rectifier and a heat sink - touch wood.Q: Has anybody successfully moved the rf to a new position, or even cut air vents above the rf position, into the plastic ?

Q: Is this one of the mythical MOSFET rectifiers that Y_C keeps going on about and would it work ? I would have to get the rf wire plug as well.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-CBR-600-CBR600-REGULATER-RECTIFIER-/310240989572?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Regulator-Rectifier-Wire-Plug-CBR-1100-900-600-/170496530082?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts

I want to solve this problem, the bike has blown both the original oem rf and the more robust gxr rf. If that means doing a bit of soldering / drilling and costing a little more this time fine. All I need to solve now is the allan bolts made of cheese (tempering maybe) and a weather deflector / shield for the back under hung brake and then were cooking on gas.

[Owenski]

Ahh but on here when people are going to fire in and fix it themselves, the details are pivotal. Especially in electrics where you need to understand before you can diagnose. and it is hardly a complex system (thus confirming my views on dealer servicing customers ;))

WHAT?!?!?!
When mine packed in all you said about my concerns on replacing it were "It'll be reeeite" ;) lol!

OP - swapped mine for the CBR one, no problems since... saying that I flogged the bike to Roberrrt and I havnt seen much of him lately :smt083

[yorkie_chris]

WHAT?!?!?!
When mine packed in all you said about my concerns on replacing it were "It'll be reeeite" ;) lol!

Ahhh but then you didn't need to diagnose the fault, I did that over the phone lol.

[Owenski]

Ahhh but then you didn't need to diagnose the fault, I did that over the phone lol.

Very true, the YC customer help line was buzzing that weekend (unlike my reg/rec).
That was the time you saw it parked up on the roundabout looking distinctly abandond.

[yorkie_chris]

So you did as you were told, wired it up, and lo, it was reeeeet :mrgreen:

[no_akira]

Any chance of a link to your MOSFET type rectifier or confirmation that the CBR rf link posted will do the trick would be appreciated because I need to order it today as taking the bus does my head in.

Cheers N_A

[yorkie_chris]

I think that CBR one you link to is older than you need.

read this
http://eviltwinsbk.com/forumz/index.php?topic=276.0

the actual components can come off myriad bikes, you are just wanting one that has similar mounting bolt centers to make it easy to fit.

CBR ones are dead easy, same bolt centers, mine was off CBR-RR 04 something like that. You need to change connectors a bit.


I'm still seeking a final solution on this and was just about to start a new post on my new theory, failure due to poor "Heat dissipation"

I want to solve this problem, the bike has blown both the original oem rf and the more robust gxr rf.

This one that's gone is a GSXR item?

[no_akira]

A: h (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-GSXR600-Regulator-rectifier-GSXR600-SRAD-/370407708288?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts)ttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-GSXR600...torcycle_Part (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-GSXR600-Regulator-rectifier-GSXR600-SRAD-/370407708288?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts)s (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUZUKI-GSXR600-Regulator-rectifier-GSXR600-SRAD-/370407708288?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts) this is the second rf that went.

This is from your link and is kinda how i'm thinking.
Heat is the number 1 killer of these devices.
Incidentally its a misconception that these thing work harder with increased load i.e. higher-wattage lights, heated vests etc - actually, the higher the load on the output, the less work the regulator does in dumping that excess energy and will actually run cooler!! Its funny he says this because I often ride WITHOUT lights on during day light (because of the misconception he talks about) he suggests leaving the lights on should make the rf fun cooler. This would however also drain the battery if the rf is failing and your 200 miles away and trying to get home.

As I see it i've got 3 choices...

1. Standard SV rf but then try to improve the cooling, drill holes / back plate £40

2. CBR generic rf from Hong Kong, adjustment to wiring (easy) £15 +
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-HONDA-CBR-600-900-1100-VT-VFR-750-/150476531440?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts

3. Yamaha R1 (MOSFET) 2007 onwards £69+

I'm favouring option 2 purely because if it blows again its only £15 but also will adjust my riding style and turn the lights on during day light.

[yorkie_chris]

I think your option 2 is actually old type shunt one and no better than stock.

D'Ecosse is highly respected by me and many others who know a lot more than me, and he even put it in bold.
"If you have an SV650, the ideal replacement is the FH008 off late model CBR"

[no_akira]

Yes that's true but possibly it might be a better build quality (Honda specification) but also I might try and relocate the rf to other side of the bike, away from the exhaust and with a backing plate ali/copper + air holes / mesh under side of curvy passenger back rump.

[Sid Squid]

I'm still seeking a final solution on this and was just about to start a new post on my new theory, failure due to poor "Heat dissipation" with the rf being insulated inside a tight plastic box directly above an efficient heat convector (stainless exhaust).
I want to solve this problem, the bike has blown both the original oem rf and the more robust gxr rf. If that means doing a bit of soldering / drilling and costing a little more this time fine.
Don't make things complicated, fit a decent unit and leave it alone. We've been through this many times and there's one proper fix: get a decent unit and fit that.
The 'more robust' unit you fitted is, from what I think you're suggesting, from a GSXR, well, they're known for failure too.
And while we're on the subject of regulator failure I imagine that just about every model of every make that's ever been unleashed on the public has, at one time or another, suffered a failure, there's no make which is immune, so while some may be better than others in this respect I rather doubt it's due to the unit's position on your bike which leads me to; cutting holes in the bodywork is at best sidestepping the problem, a unit that is working properly gets all the cooling it needs, and I sincerely doubt that the position of the exhaust - hot as it may be - adds to the heating of the regulator to any significant degree.

[yorkie_chris]

Only way exhaust is heating reg is if you are riding at 5mph for fear of overcharging :mrgreen:

[yorkie_chris]

Yes that's true but possibly it might be a better build quality (Honda specification) but also I might try and relocate the rf to other side of the bike, away from the exhaust and with a backing plate ali/copper + air holes / mesh under side of curvy passenger back rump.

Might be better build quality? They are probably buying reg from same place as OEM, and you are buying cheap pattern one. Build quality?

Plus no heat sinks on reg? What does that tell you about amount of heat dissipated?

I think you have some very odd logic on this.

[no_akira]

I've got to disagree with you Sid, 2 rectifier failures on a bike that is only 6 years old and has only done 22K and along with the amount of posts about the subject on this forum suggests otherwise.

I strongly believe there is an issue with rf placement on this model either from poor heat dissipation as well as being in a location that suffers badly from road shock doesn't help either.
The reason a solution has never been worked out is that generally bike ownership is a few years, then the model is sold on and the problem is passed onto the next mug.

Am I expecting too much for the rf unit to last the full life time of the bike as they do on most other bikes ?

Its issues like this that can easily tarnish a bikes reputation especially when the SV is IMHO on its way to being a modern day classic.

Plus no heat sinks on reg? What does that tell you about amount of heat dissipated? well as the SV rf isn't dissipating heat does it matter ?

[mikerj]

Am I expecting too much for the rf unit to last the full life time of the bike as they do on most other bikes ?

Why do you think this? Regulator/rectifier units are a common failure on many different bikes - if this were not the case then the pattern parts produced by various manufacturers wouldn't be available.

However, heat is the number one enemy so keeping it as cool as possible will prolong its life. You might also want to check that all the connections between the regulator and battery (including battery ground) are clean and tight, an intermittent connection will result in extremely high voltage spikes from the generator being produced which can quickly kill these units.

[yorkie_chris]

well as the SV rf isn't dissipating heat does it matter ?

Of course it is dissipating heat, it managed to do that fine for 30 some thousand miles on mine.

Why does this location suffer from road shock? Where else you going to put it? They are solid state devices, why do they care about shock?



Go try it for sure, but you will not justify the choice to me as I think it is a flawed one.

[Roberrrrt]

WHAT?!?!?!
When mine packed in all you said about my concerns on replacing it were "It'll be reeeite" ;) lol!

OP - swapped mine for the CBR one, no problems since... saying that I flogged the bike to Roberrrt and I havnt seen much of him lately :smt083

Don't fret lad, I'm still here!! :D But while you were away, my bike did have a strop and refused to start one day - got home and it started fine?!

Still need to get one of these multi-meter thingamejiggas on there actually and see what's going on!!

Slight derail, but possibly connected, bike feels 'lumpy' when idling - constantly rev's itself from about 1200rpm to 1700rpm and back down again in a cycle...

[yorkie_chris]

That is not normal reg rec failure sign

[Roberrrrt]

That is not normal reg rec failure sign

Any idea what it might be? Owenski mentioned that my valve clearances might need looking at soon, related to that perhaps?

(I know you did the front one when you changed that head, from memory?) :confused:

[yorkie_chris]

Something weird in carb maybe. They balanced?

[Roberrrrt]

Something weird in carb maybe. They balanced?

They were when Owenski did 'em as part of the rebuild few months back...

[dizzyblonde]

Yes that's true but possibly it might be a better build quality (Honda specification) but also I might try and relocate the rf to other side of the bike, away from the exhaust and with a backing plate ali/copper + air holes / mesh under side of curvy passenger back rump.


Ere, my reg rec is placed with its head right next to the end can, and has done for three years of my ownership. It doesn't make a difference where the hell it its got its head, if its gonna go its gonna go.. Tom y knowledge its a possibility that the reg rec has been there for the previous 7 years of the bikes life.
However, I have had to replace the reg rec on the other SV, that has been in the family for the last nine years, about 4 years ago, and its been fine since. This particular reg rec doesn't have its head against a hi level can, only on one that is placed at the standard height. This was replaced like for like by a qualified MC mech, because it just blew.

BTW listen to Sir Sid of Squid, hes not a motorcycle type mechanic for nothing, and YC ain't a BEng Hons for nowt either. I have neither of these qualifications, and I am perfectly happy with the advice given here, its a problem that has been covered many many many times, you ain't an exception to the rule with your problem.

[Viney]

I've got to disagree with you Sid, 2 rectifier failures on a bike that is only 6 years old and has only done 22K and along with the amount of posts about the subject on this forum suggests otherwise.

I strongly believe there is an issue with rf placement on this model either from poor heat dissipation as well as being in a location that suffers badly from road shock doesn't help either.
The reason a solution has never been worked out is that generally bike ownership is a few years, then the model is sold on and the problem is passed onto the next mug.

Am I expecting too much for the rf unit to last the full life time of the bike as they do on most other bikes ?

Its issues like this that can easily tarnish a bikes reputation especially when the SV is IMHO on its way to being a modern day classic.

well as the SV rf isn't dissipating heat does it matter ?
I have had 3 in 10 years and 70000 miles. The 1st went at 50k and just died, the second was a used unit, the 3rd the same and wasnt 100% garuteed working, now on my 4th which was a new unit.

For the record, what YC and Squid dont know about bikes, fixing them, and all the theorys behind them isnt worth knowing. Maybe there is an issue with regrecs, but as i think in one post, the ammount of miles and the amount of faliures says that it really isnt an issue, well not one ot make a song and dance about.

No bike is bomb proof, if there was, then we'd all be riding one.

[Sid Squid]

I've got to disagree with you Sid,
Disagree away, I've no objection - however in support of what I have said:

1. Your original RR failed, ho-hum they do that, you got unlucky.
2. You replaced it with an RR from a bike similarly afflicted, and that didn't last - at this I register no surprise.
3. Clearly we know that the SV is far from immune to RR failure, would you care to hazard a guess what percentage of SVs have never suffered a failure? No, me neither. However I know it's a large figure as the great majority of SV owners have never suffered a problem. We don't get many threads praising the longevity of bike parts - the reverse is not so.
4. I do this lots, and have much experience of many bikes and their charging systems.
5. So does Chris. Take the suggestions he has made of the better more modern units and fit one.

I don't wish to appear rude, it's your bike and you may of course do precisely as you wish, but there's a lot of information provided by people with knowledge and experience on here, however you seem resistant to this and wish to find a different solution. Cooling and position on the bike are not the problem here, for instance take a look at where the RR is on a Pointy - right next to the front cylinder, by the line you're pursuing that would be a recipe for failure, particularly if the bike had lower fairings fitted, but those models seem significantly less affected.

[no_akira]

Everybody is so busy shouting, your missing key points in the discussion.

Seriously all I'm trying to achieve is improve the longevity / reliabilty of the rf on the Curvy SV.

I also wouldn't be making such a "song & dance" if what was meant to be a more robust unit (possibly only lasted 6K) hadn't spontaneously combusted.

3. Clearly we know that the SV is far from immune to RR failure Exactly what I've been trying to say all along, you just need to add "premature failure".

When I look at the unit the epoxy has come away from the sides at the top, this could be as a result of the fire or it could be an indicator for failure. Heat no longer dissipating across the air gap, possible hot spots. You can have to same thing happen on the interface between processors and cooling vanes and which ultimately leads to early failure. Also indicates poor heat dissipation.

I would be quite interested to hear what the minitwin riders take on the reliability of the rf is ?

[Sid Squid]

Everybody is so busy shouting, your missing key points in the discussion.
I've not detected any shouting, and I guarantee you neither Chris nor I are missing anything, we've been here many times and understand both the problem and the solution well. I sincerely question whether your replacement unit was as 'robust' an item as you consider it.
Anyway good advice has been given, Chris has listed a number of suitable replacements, it's your decision whether you wish to act upon such information.

[Neeja]

Everybody is so busy shouting, your missing key points in the discussion.

Seriously all I'm trying to achieve is improve the longevity / reliabilty of the rf on the Curvy SV.


Why? You're going to spend ages researching and trying to engineer solutions for a bike that's no longer in production, despite the fact that there are known better parts to use, based on your own bad experiences. I also find it funny that you state that everyone's missing key points when you've missed several times the people stating that the GSX-R reg-recs are also prone to failure.

YC et. al. have provided an answer to the problems you're facing: Get a CBR unit (or any similar MOSFET type). There's no need to start looking for complex solutions, just get a CBR unit and fit it. You could probably have bought and fitted one in the time you've spent coming up with theories on this thread :D

For the record, my reg-rec was still perfect after 32,000 miles, through two outdoor winters, three different engines, two different batteries and modifications to the wiring loom, all without ever changing its location.

My housemate's curvy reg-rec died at 11,000 miles having lived a much easier life.

[yorkie_chris]

When I look at the unit the epoxy has come away from the sides at the top, this could be as a result of the fire or it could be an indicator for failure.

I have seen a couple of failed reg recs. This is not a typical issue. As far as is practical there is no way to see any sign of failure. A good box looks the same as a bad one.


I would be quite interested to hear what the minitwin riders take on the reliability of the rf is ?

Why? They run the bikes flat out for short periods of time and then they spend a while laid up. They suffer about the same failure RATE as stock ones.

[yorkie_chris]

Seriously all I'm trying to achieve is improve the longevity / reliabilty of the rf on the Curvy SV.

Curvy or whatever, underlined or not, you still turning 3ph AC into DC 14v.

You saying you want to tell people to chop their fairings up to save the (POS!) reg rec due to heat?


What do you make of it when I tell you my reg rec failed while I was running the bike without any tail plastics fitted? You think it caught a chill :smt082

[no_akira]

I would be quite interested to hear what the minitwin riders take on the reliability of the rf is ?Because isn't it universally accepted in the motor industry that a good way to stress test production vehicles / components is through racing ?
It would just have been interesting to hear alternative solutions to this rf problem.

Q: Why did suzuki move the positon of the rectifier in the later model pointy.

A: Possibly heat dissipation & rectifier longevity, I've also noticed that my burning rectifier if left for much longer would have burnt through my rear brake reservoir brake line. Great my bikes on fire and i've got brake fluid running all over my rear tyre !

Perceived ideas and "groupthink" were a problem for Nasa, its always easyier to follow the herd.

I think the forum mummble about the more robust gsxr-600 (shunt type with heavy duty vains) maybe for some riders misguided or only short term solution. It may possibly lead to worsening heat retention. Its possibly fine if all your doing is a 40 minute commute twice a day, but if you do a sustained full days ride, over several days. Its possibly best to stick with the lighter flacky standard rf which just fails but doesn't ignite. This is what I think i've learned from this thread.

Apologies if i'm drawing this out but different people absorb things at different rates.

This is possibly a new thread. About 10 years ago "Electronics Today" magazine had the details for making the gear selector LED box, just wondering if anybody has found anything similar for a "Rectifier Status LED". A little idea i'd had for this is you get these led light toys lately that use a single multicoloured led going from blue - red - yellow - white perhaps these could be useful for showing charging status. Possibly you would only want it to work for the first few minutes after starting the bike. Also it would just plug in between the connector with a male/female type connector ala PC's. A small little hole in the back rump and poke the led through.

Found this link below
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/electronic-projects-design-ideas-reviews/95642-motorcycle-alternator-light.html

Some enterprising engineer maybe...... could sell these kits on ebay.

As Sid says its my bike and if I want to tinker and try to improve rf longevity with a third solution, I can. I'm going to go with option 2 and try to repositon the rf perhaps to the triangle besides my left calf, underneath the carbon fibre cover using the CBR unvained type rf but then heat paste it onto a large triangle piece of aluminium as a heat sink. If nothing else at least it will be an easy to get at position. :geek:

NB: For the record I'm not suggesting people chop up there rear tails.

[dizzyblonde]

Q: Why did suzuki move the positon of the rectifier in the later model pointy.

.


Might do...but they still go bang in some cases.

I suppose in a way its a bit like me at work.
I shove out some 2500 tins of sweets an hour through a very large machine that runs 24/7. In those volumes of tins of sweets there are those that don't make the grade, come out damaged etc.

How many SVs are there in the land?, quite a lot, so there is always room for a certain few with reg recs that don't make the grade compared to the vast amount of others that work perfectly adequately.. They are designed to take a lot of different possiblities, but none are flawless.
Unfortunately as a reg rec thats knackered(apart from yours as I suppose it looks a bit like a burnt plastic spatula someone left in a frying pan) looks pretty much like any new or working reg rec, you can't be sure if its a goodun or one that just was flawed from the factory.....unlike my tins of sweets, that either are bashed, crashed or weigh too little, or don't have a date code etc etc.

I can pretty much say its down to luck if you reposition it, as to if it cures the problem for you....not because it was a fantastic idea that nobody else has ever thought about.

Probability mathematics anyone?

[yorkie_chris]

You could easily build some sort of logic circuit to detect the system voltage. It could be wired directly into any system of the bike.
Google it, there's a write up somewhere on how to do it. I looked at it, then decided it was better to just fit a reg rec that works.

What is this heat retention thing? I suggest you read a textbook on thermodynamics.

Also who is saying GSXR ones are more robust? They undoubtedly work...



I'm happy to theorise with you all day, but at the end of it, I'll still tell you to fit a CBR unit and ride the bugger.

[no_akira]

What is this heat retention thing?This was with regards to the gsxr600 rf which has bigger heat exchange vains compared to the standard rf. If they were types of crackers, the gsxr rf would be a cornish waffer and the sv rf would be a water biscuit.
Could it be larger vains retain more heat on longer sustained journey whilst the thinner rf is hotter to the touch but is working more efficiently at pumping away excess heat from the circuitry. Its just supposition but Suzuki engineers must have their reasons for staying with the water biscuit !

[yorkie_chris]

Like I say, go read a thermodynamics textbook. It's not possible for something to be hotter to the touch yet more efficiently removing heat given the same heat input.
Larger vanes will dissipate more heat, not retain it. More surface area.

You give suzuki engineers too much respect. They are some of the best, but they work down to a price, not up to a standard.

Suzuki engineers have same reason the 2010 SV has the same nonfunctional forks, prehistoric shock absorber and lacklustre brakes as the very first curvy.
(well, not exactly the same, but functionally, yes)

[MrMessy]

I have had 3 rectifiers fail in recent times. One on an ER5 and 2 on curvy SV's. All failed without causing any damage. The ER5 I replaced with an Electrex item that was bigger so mounted it on the side of the bike on a piece of copper bus-bar. Ist SV one I replaced with a CBR unit 2nd is under charging and still to replace. Talking to my local main dealer they where not aware that they fail but they told me Electrex sell a lot of Triumph and Honda replacements. Apparently the Honda ones fail due to the high output from the alternators not because the rectifiers are suspect. I am going to replace mine with a later unit and mount it in an air stream. It may be beneficial to check battery voltage regularily and may help in catching the problem before it causes any serious damage. (Optimate charging leads and voltmeter)

[hardhat_harry]

On my track bike the reg / rec is positioned on the frame as it curves towards the headstock, other minitwins mount it under the front fairing or under the rear subframe but the reason for this is to move the battery forward and out of the seat unit area (usually under the front engine cylinder) and nothing to do with heat dissipation.

[no_akira]

Found this scottish enterpriser (sparkbright productions), who sell some nice attractive voltimeters all for around a tenner....

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/sparkbright_products/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340

Same thing but none available

http://www.rawcomponents.co.uk/battery-accessories/battery-monitor-status-indicator/12v-multicolour-battery-monitor-kit.html

Or this American one - LED Gauge

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/3/13/123/8115/ITEM/Kuryakyn-LED-Battery-Gauge.aspx

[Viney]

No_Akira.

I really do think that you are chasing rainbows. As i have said, i have had 3 rectifiers fail, none of which have busrt into flames, they just stop working and cook the battery! I have owned my sv from day one, and its about to celebrate its 10th birthday and 68 thousandth mile all of which i have covered personally. I also know of bikes well into thier 100 thousandth mile of life and again none of which have burst into flames. My bike does a 10mile each way commute every week day. It sounds like your expeirence is/was a one off.

We had/have a similar issue with the front plug getting wet due to poor design, but there is a soloution and thats that. You either do that solution or put up with a soggy bike. Suzuki didnt want to know, although they put a little rubber strip on the pointy model.

[yorkie_chris]

I also know of bikes well into thier 100 thousandth mile of life and again none of which have burst into flames.

Or some ducatis which have only caught fire a bit despite approaching their 100th mile :-P