Advanced Training for a beginner?

[hongman]

Ello peeps

Well. I've been thinking about doing some advanced training to help better myself, primarily cornering. Everything from the right approach speed to reading the corners, and also overtakes.

When I first passed I said to myself - I'll give it a while (6 months?) beofre looking at advanced training so have had time to "fully" get used to the bike and riding, and be able to absorb advanced riding techniques easier, as my concentration is not being used up by the simple things like which gear am I in, have I cancelled my indicator....etc.

I've been out for a few bimbles by myself and 9/10 corners where I'm not behind another vehicle I find myself saying to myself "I could have taken that loads quicker" OR "****, went into that one a bit hot", or "wow that line was really messy".

My only concern with doing advanced training is that I'm still so new to riding. Is there such thing as being too inexperienced for advanced training?

I dont find myself getting any better at the bits that frustrate me the most, and I wonder if doing miles is going to make me any better if I'm doing something wrong which I dont know about. Maybe all I need is someone to point out to me - "Try this instead" or sommat.

I mean....I've read the theory...but in reality it just doesnt gel together quite right.

Which leads me onto the next point of...which training course - if any - should I be looking at?

Sounds dumb but I also feel a bit uneasy about someone else actively observing my riding as I know my obs aren't as good as they should be. Dropped my guard a bit after the test eh...

Comments, critism appreciated.

Oh, and I haven't dropped the bike this week. Result! :hockey:

[hongman]

Oh, sorry, forgot to mention for those that dont know me...

License held for a couple months ish, done probably nearly 2k miles but the majority of that was the AR and Jo's rideout, so lots of motorway/boring stuff.

[lukemillar]

Bikesafe, maybe? Very cheap and a good introduction to advanced training.

[Mej]

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[Holdup]

Bikesafe, maybe? Very cheap and a good introduction to advanced training.

+1 start of with that, i did and it helped very much

[hongman]

Thats what I have looked at - Bikesafe, ROSPA, IAM so far.

Might try Bikesafe as they are really cheap lol.

[Mej]

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[andrewsmith]

bikesafe is the best starting point

I think its about £130 ish (but depends upon the force and funding)

[Mej]

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[andrewsmith]

Mej edit: £50

Hong: http://www.bikesafe.co.uk/Bikesafe/essex.html

[hongman]

how much is bikesafe???

http://www.bikesafe.co.uk/Bikesafe/essex.html

£50 for 1 day session, 9-5.

[hongman]

jesus, i would recommend ROSPA then, £20 to join, training is free and can last for a few months then take the test when you are ready for £55. Most of the people that teach ROSPA are ex coppers.

Hmm...training is free...deffo worth more of a looky.

Mej edit: £50

Hong: http://www.bikesafe.co.uk/Bikesafe/essex.html

:D

EDIT: I dont really care for certification mind, I just want the skills. If it comes part and package of then fair enough but I dont care whether or not I can declare myself a "X trained member"

[Mej]

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[Holdup]

I think the bike safe charges are different in different areas, i payed 50 quid for the day with Kent police when i did mine

[hongman]

Thanks Mej.

PM'ed.

[Mej]

Sent, you didnt get it from me :)

[hongman]

Get what? ;)

[orose]

Bikesafe isn't technically training, its more a one-day assessment of your riding. A possible alternative that hasn't been mentioned is the DSAs enhanced riding scheme, which looks to be pitched as an intermediary step along the lines of pass plus, and might be a bit more suited to your situation.

A bit of saddle time isn't going to hurt things (for me, I don't think I gelled fully with my SV for the first 6 months), and I'd recommend IAM as an option, but I'm wondering whether it might be a bit early for it yet.

[hongman]

Yeah, thats my worry with advanced training - maybe a bit too early.

Hadnt thought of DSA to be honest, was glad to see the back of them the day I passed!

I havent had as much saddle time as I would like to be honest, esp for commuting on the back roads. Downside to having to carry expensive client equipment a lot.

What I dont want is too much of a rigid training scheme, if such a thing exists? AKA being told off for going 10mph above the speed limit to overtake a car assuming all is otherwise safe.

[rictus01]

I'd have to disagree with most here, at your level bikesafe is a bit of a waste of time, and the basics aren't well enough established to make full use of advanced training.

I've maintained that the gap between just having passed your test upto being comfortable and competent on the road is not addressed by anyone, for years I've taken novices and introduced them to those skills we all use, but have in most cases learnt the hard way, find the right person (not just someone who's fast) and ask them for time to teach you, it's the best way by far.

Cheers Mark.

[Mej]

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[Mej]

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[rictus01]

I have to disagree, Rospa will/should help build/improve the basics before moving on the more advanced stuff.

All that being said.

Time in the saddle in all conditions is a big confidence builder.

Having done both, not to mention the police training course, thery are very good and have some useful lessons to teach, but the constraints of any organisation mean you spend time adhering to the Law, whilst not saying people should actively seek to infringe the law at all (;)), it's ignores what most riders do on most rides and allows a more "real world" learning curve, with the correct cautions it'll give the novice the ability to choose where and when to use learn skills, rather than just knowing they are wrong with no ability in that area.

[andrewsmith]

All that being said.

Time in the saddle in all conditions is a big confidence builder.

+1

Thats what I've done and the benefit was confidence (about 9k from passing me test july 2009).


I'm doing my IAM after a year and the comment made by 2 different instructors was that there is limited confidence issues and has a fast road pace

[injury_ian]

Go for IAM / RoSPA / DSA

The earlier you start the less bad habits you'll have to undo!

But its no secret, the more miles you do, the more confident you'll be come!

[lukemillar]

bikesafe is the best starting point

I think its about £130 ish (but depends upon the force and funding)

Eh? It used to be about 35 quid and that was in London!

[andrewsmith]

Eh? It used to be about 35 quid and that was in London!

corrected it few post later Luke. £50 is the going rate and I've got to go to Durham or Cleveland HQ for it (Northumbria dissolved the Bike section 3 yr ago)

[lukemillar]

corrected it few post later Luke. £50 is the going rate and I've got to go to Durham or Cleveland HQ for it (Northumbria dissolved the Bike section 3 yr ago)

Yep - read that after, but couldn't be @rsed to change my post! :)

[yorkie_chris]

I'd have to disagree with most here, at your level bikesafe is a bit of a waste of time, and the basics aren't well enough established to make full use of advanced training.

I've maintained that the gap between just having passed your test upto being comfortable and competent on the road is not addressed by anyone, for years I've taken novices and introduced them to those skills we all use, but have in most cases learnt the hard way, find the right person (not just someone who's fast) and ask them for time to teach you, it's the best way by far.

Cheers Mark.

I agree.

ride the bike. Follow someone who knows what they're about (they will be faster, but hopefully prepared to slow down to show you a bit).

You can then practice this on your own. Push your limits, but slowly.

[hongman]

Hmm, some interesting points!

I hear what you are saying mark/yc. But my biker friends are not really the teachy type.. And I'm really not the best judge as to who really knows their stuff. The 2 I can think of that are very competant riders in my eyes are always too busy, both just started their own family.

Doing an advanced course now vs later - again I dunno.

My concerns about doing one too early echoes what others have mentioned. That I'm still at a stage where it'll be of little benefit. However the opposite is also valid in that doing one now may well set me on a faster path to competance. I guess on this matter though the experience could well vary depending on course/rider/instrctor.

[rictus01]

that doing one now may well set me on a faster path to competance. .

See that's my point above, the average discription of "Competence" by ROSPA or IAM, isn't the same as you and your mates going for a ride, the police course is much better because they use exemptions for emergency work, which are closer to what you and your mates will probably be doing at times, but you won't have access to that.

I've taken several people down to Burnham (a fairly short run down the A414) for the day to practise a few basics and all have come away with improved control /observation and roadcraft all as real world skills with an understanding of what's normal riding and a clear definition of what is legal riding, the differences and where to use (or not) them.

[injury_ian]

See that's my point above, the average discription of "Competence" by ROSPA or IAM, isn't the same as you and your mates going for a ride, the police course is much better because they use exemptions for emergency work, which are closer to what you and your mates will probably be doing at times, but you won't have access to that.

No but its a good place to start, they (IAM etc) are quite a low qualification of competence, but it is a level above the bike test, I'd argue ideal for a new rider.

Whatever you view the IAM will never teach you anything that is wrong, but there are alternative techniques out there. It does no harm learning them all.

[rictus01]

better than nothing I'll grant you, but as most riders will "interpret" the law on most rides, that's something those organizations can't teach, so learning "all" isn't covered.

[hongman]

WHen you next down there, Mark? ;)

[timwilky]

do you not have anyone like this down your way.

http://www.ridecraft.co.uk/

[dizzyblonde]

Hongman, with your level of riding experience, doing courses IMO wouldn't be a preferable idea.....YET.

I'm more for pointing you in the direction of the saddle, and getting out there. Although contrary to following others or riding with others, I would go out and do things on your own. After all, they don't ride your ride, they don't ride your bike, they aren't in your mindset. Doing your own thing for a good period of time, THEN asking your mates to just add some constructive comments when out with them will perhaps be a better route at this stage.

IF when you feel that you aren't really getting far, or you think you are needing an advancement go for other training. I've not done any advanced training, but have gone out on my own because I got fed up of having to jump through hoops I wasn't comfy with, when out with others, I went with a good friend last year for a damn good ride, and requested his 'experienced opinon'. My riding isn't as bad as what some may think...quite the opposite, and I learnt it all on my own with nobody elses influences. I also spent some 200 odd miles with an IAM observer, whose a mate, and also got another type of opinion, which mirrored what the other friend had said.

Pegasus, is thinking about doing ROSPA next year, but he has many many miles under his belt, and many many years on the road. TBH he rides like a copper now, but hes just curious to how a trained eye, sees his riding. I may join him, but only because I haven't been near a road whilst pregnant, and just need the boost from trained people, not 'mates' to get the pyschological side back on track.

Just get out there and ride, you may suprise yourself.

[hongman]

do you not have anyone like this down your way.

http://www.ridecraft.co.uk/

I dunno - will have a looksy when back at home from work. Thanks for the heads up.

Hongman, with your level of riding experience, doing courses IMO wouldn't be a preferable idea.....YET.

I'm more for pointing you in the direction of the saddle, and getting out there. Although contrary to following others or riding with others, I would go out and do things on your own. After all, they don't ride your ride, they don't ride your bike, they aren't in your mindset. Doing your own thing for a good period of time, THEN asking your mates to just add some constructive comments when out with them will perhaps be a better route at this stage.

IF when you feel that you aren't really getting far, or you think you are needing an advancement go for other training. I've not done any advanced training, but have gone out on my own because I got fed up of having to jump through hoops I wasn't comfy with, when out with others, I went with a good friend last year for a damn good ride, and requested his 'experienced opinon'. My riding isn't as bad as what some may think...quite the opposite, and I learnt it all on my own with nobody elses influences. I also spent some 200 odd miles with an IAM observer, whose a mate, and also got another type of opinion, which mirrored what the other friend had said.

Pegasus, is thinking about doing ROSPA next year, but he has many many miles under his belt, and many many years on the road. TBH he rides like a copper now, but hes just curious to how a trained eye, sees his riding. I may join him, but only because I haven't been near a road whilst pregnant, and just need the boost from trained people, not 'mates' to get the pyschological side back on track.

Just get out there and ride, you may suprise yourself.

I hear ya DB. Time in the saddle is always beneficial, that I have no doubt about. Just recently I dont feel like I am progressing (in measureable terms) I guess, so started to think about other ways to push on.

I have spoken to a few people who say that their riding was "ok" before doing an advanced course but after they did one, things just "clicked", and as a result they became faster and safer.

I'll carry on using the bike as much as possible in the meantime. Maybe I'll get through this winter and start looking at advanced courses when the weather starts to pick up again next year?

[yorkie_chris]

See my album on profile for advanced riding instruction :)

[Specialone]

I dunno - will have a looksy when back at home from work. Thanks for the heads up.



I hear ya DB. Time in the saddle is always beneficial, that I have no doubt about. Just recently I dont feel like I am progressing (in measureable terms) I guess, so started to think about other ways to push on.

I have spoken to a few people who say that their riding was "ok" before doing an advanced course but after they did one, things just "clicked", and as a result they became faster and safer.

I'll carry on using the bike as much as possible in the meantime. Maybe I'll get through this winter and start looking at advanced courses when the weather starts to pick up again next year?
I sounds like you are in a similar positiion to myself, i felt like i had reached a plateau and wasnt going to improve unless i changed the ingrediants.
I started last week by doing a track day, this helped me get used to the bike cornering at speed i probably wouldnt do on the roads, so basically if i feel the need or required it wouldnt feel a shock and feel more comfortable.
I am gonna do more of these and use the track instructors, didnt really see the one on friday as he was hooning around the track and didnt see him in off track time.

Im also gonna do a rospa thingy as well.

[Stu]

Hong, from the muppets we get at IAM, I'd say you're never too inexperienced to start with advanced training. You'd fit right in ;)

As Kevin Schwantz says, "Practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent" so there's no point getting more experience, it just makes you more confident that you can survive even though you could be doing it a better way.

I'd agree with Mark on the Bikesafe day - I think that is designed for experienced riders who are just willing to spend a day having an asessment. I don't agree that it is a cheap option at £50 for one day compared with £139 for IAM which could last a year. The proper cheap option is Rospa if you can find them, unless you have the amazing possibilty of having a riding god mate willing to give up his time just to teach you.

[hongman]

See my album on profile for advanced riding instruction :)

LOL :smt045

I sounds like you are in a similar positiion to myself, i felt like i had reached a plateau and wasnt going to improve unless i changed the ingrediants.
I started last week by doing a track day, this helped me get used to the bike cornering at speed i probably wouldnt do on the roads, so basically if i feel the need or required it wouldnt feel a shock and feel more comfortable.
I am gonna do more of these and use the track instructors, didnt really see the one on friday as he was hooning around the track and didnt see him in off track time.

Im also gonna do a rospa thingy as well.

Thought about track days, but I think that is too far ahead for me. Plus its pretty expensive right...£100+ for a couple hours riding?

Hong, from the muppets we get at IAM, I'd say you're never too inexperienced to start with advanced training. You'd fit right in ;)

As Kevin Schwantz says, "Practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent" so there's no point getting more experience, it just makes you more confident that you can survive even though you could be doing it a better way.

I'd agree with Mark on the Bikesafe day - I think that is designed for experienced riders who are just willing to spend a day having an asessment. I don't agree that it is a cheap option at £50 for one day compared with £139 for IAM which could last a year. The proper cheap option is Rospa if you can find them, unless you have the amazing possibilty of having a riding god mate willing to give up his time just to teach you.

Thanks Stu.

How does IAM/ROSPA work? Is it a weekly/montly thing, going out for assessed rides, then eventually doing a test?

Don't have a riding god of a mate unfortunately. Well, not yet anyway. Most of the people I know that ride are not the mindset I feel comfortable trying to follow...they are "ok" riders I suppose, better than me in terms of pace, but also a bit...reckless at times. I'm the oldest of the bunch, I guess they are just living out their youth.

Also a thought - how much do these courses affect insurance? Is it pitiful, or actually something decent?

[yorkie_chris]

Thought about track days, but I think that is too far ahead for me. Plus its pretty expensive right...£100+ for a couple hours riding?

But it is a couple of hours riding as fast as you can. Which is obviously going to teach you more than a few months normal riding where you will only get near that commitment for 5 seconds at a time if at all.

However from sounds of your post, it is not cornering skill which is holding you back (yet), but observations.

There is no advantage to insurance cost with advanced qualifications.
I did some quotes saying I was IAM observer and ROSPA gold, it reduced my premium by about £15 :rolleyes:


My advice to you is read roadcraft book and ride the bike.

[hongman]

Point taken, and all advice gratefully received.

[Specialone]

If i can do a track day anyone can, i had never done one before and had really fast inters in my group on track bikes.

I found keith codes twist of the wrist 2 quite good, it explains the reasons why, which i wanted, highly recommend it.

BTW i paid £95 for 3 1/2 hours of track time, which is excellent value and well worth the money.

[Orpheus]

Ive been doing an IAM course, £139, and would recommend it, though not yet for you. I think you need time to just get use to riding a bike, without trying to pick up too much at once. Try and go out for rides lasting a few hours, i find i come back from them and lot more in tune with the bike than a half hour blast.

As for tips, i would say one of the things to make the most difference is positioning. Moving left for a right hand bend (and vice versa) can make quite a difference to how far you can see through the bend, which helps a lot with how much speed you can safely carry through it.

[Messie]

Hong - there are at least three advanced groups near you that I know of - Essex Advanced Motorcycle Group (EAMG) and an IAM group and non-IAM/Rospa group. They all meet weekly in Chelmsford. I don't have all the details to hand. but I can find out more if you really want. However, my advice for the moment is to just keep riding and racking up the miles and maybe go for more training in the Spring.
Look how you've improved so far - you haven't dropped the bike all week!!

[sunshine]

Consider slowing down and sorting the observations first, take your corners slower getting the lines right then speed up. Dont expect get good so quickly, it took me 9 months to gel with my sv after changing things round to suit be better (tyres etc.)

Me and my mate learn to ride together being better at different things taught each other so now we are both better riders. Advanced rider training will help you as well, but i think its best to do some miles first 2K is nothing really from my first 50cc ped i have been racking up about 10k per year.

[rictus01]

WHen you next down there, Mark? ;)

No plans to go down there at present, but if you get a weekday off give me a shout, if free I'll give you a few hours.

Cheers Mark.

[AndyBrad]

I see where your comming from hong,

I can remember going back a couple of years to when i first started. Your thinking i must improve, and quicly, else this thing is going to kill me! well i was anyways. Riding my bike away from where i bought it i had scared myself (wheelied the thing my accident into my nuts while trying to set off at a junction) and was pretty much scared silly on the road. Going from the gs500 to the sv was a big jump for me and i wasnt ready for it.

Anyhow i spoke to a few folks on her and went out a few times but i didnt have a feking clue what i was doing on a bike. Anyhow i went on a couple of rideouts (as you have done) and things started to fall into place. I did the bikesafe thing and looked at the iam as well. Bikesafe is good and worth doing but even the guys there said "look just get yourself out on some roads" Im lucky in that ive been out with some people that seem to know what there doing on the rideouts and its helped me immensly. I would suggest you do the same. Your trying to take in a lot (how the bike works, how you work and how the road works) Your not going to take it all in straight away. Just give yourself some time.

Thinking "i could have gone faster" is all well and good but from what ive seen theres nothing wrong with going slow. Some people are really good, fast riders (paul 6th, yc, luckypants, binky, berlin etc etc etc) imo. Some people are fast but just bloody stupid! some people are neither but will tell you they took that corner doing 100mph while texting there birds for a threesome and they would have gone faster but they were trying to spark a fag up at the time :)

Dont listen to the bullsheet, dont try and ride as fast or like somone else just pop out and have some fun :) thats what its all about. 6 months down the line think about other stuff but youve got a lot to learn about you and the bike first imo....

[maxinc]

I have spoken to a few people who say that their riding was "ok" before doing an advanced course but after they did one, things just "clicked", and as a result they became faster and safer.

I don't consider my rinding OK but riding with the IAM group definitely "clicked" a few things for me. I've only been on the monthly ride out with the group (KAMG) and I can say that my cornering and confidence improved significantly after just following an advanced rider for 50 miles within the limits.

The somehow slower and smoother pace gives you more time to absorb information until you have learned it and becomes second nature.

I can't wait for the advanced training to begin (11th Sep) which includes more than just observed rides. My group is organising machine control days, theory courses and even track days for a small extra. Every month they have meetings and you get to test ride bikes from various sponsors. Not to mention the incredibly friendly company always so kind to answer any question.

I agree that perhaps you won't end up a race rider after an IAM course but is definitely an experience that will only do you good. And as for value for money ... just think how much you paid for your DSA licences training and how much you got for it.

[hongman]

Sorry for the lack of, been very busy at work :(

Following the majority of advice given here I think I will give myself til next spring before doing any more training. I am still picking up things daily on the bike, silly, small things, but still everytime I get on it, I feel a bit more comfortable with it than before.

Might try save up (yeah right, lol) and get myself ready for a few track days next year.

Everyone's opinion is very much appreciated.