View Full Version : an environmental rant..
454697819
01-09-10, 08:11 PM
I sit on the fence reagrding global warming however I get constantly wound up about the persistant going green on everything as its "better"
I agree that this planet has limited recourses and we should use as little fuel as possible, and in general should be carefull with recourses however this is where it gets my goat..
we are told to scrap our cars which use more fuel and maybe are a little tired and to buy new ones, but as far as I know no one has published the actual full picture re the Co2 it takes to manufacture deliver, fuel, service a new car compared with running and eventually scraping the old car and I for one believe very strongly if it aint broke dont fix it, does the fuel a new car saves really pay back the extra manufacture C02 etc etc...
what makes my blood boil that the neivity of people who believe battery powered hybrids are environmentally friendly, the sources I have read indicate that the 100k cycle of a hybrid including mining the lithium etc etc is a lot more damaging than running and maufacturing a hummer for 100k miles. my standard non lithium powered oil burner diesel returns 54mpg thats about what these over hyped hybrids manage in the real world...
Exactly the same for boilers, scrap ur old one, buy a new one but really why? environmentally does it actually stack up.. I mean serioulsy if were taliking C02 please someone show me the figures which validate these claims of helping the environment.
why cant we have constructive information to base our decisions on.. like full life cycle c02 pictures, etc.
how about tyres with another 1mm of tread, this way they last another 3000 miles on the same carcass etc.
I just cannot fathom why ppl accept these unbacked up claims that newer is better on full life cycle c02 production..
that is of course if c02 is actually an issue and its not that the earth is getting closer to the sun like the germans think.. vorsprungderchwarming...
anywho my fence is pointy..
discuss
(this is based on misc readings and no sciency stuff combined with my own opinionated opinions)
454697819
01-09-10, 08:14 PM
.
widepants
01-09-10, 08:17 PM
.
lol ...saw it before you did the edit
M O N E Y. the powers that be dont give a fek about us or the planet they just want out CASH. so be a good tree huger folks and get your cash out and spend spend spend.
sloppy joe
01-09-10, 08:45 PM
why cant we have constructive information to base our decisions on.. like full life cycle c02 pictures, etc.
I think this is the most important part of your rant, and the part I certainly agree with.
New prius or carry on with the old 306 diesel? Not that I am in a position to make such a choice, but the data is not out there (or reaidly available) to figure which is a 'better' decision.
Not entirely sure about global warming, but as someone smarter than me has said before, I have yet to see the evidence that pumping more stuff into the atmosphere is good. So how do we make decisions without proper info?
Specialone
01-09-10, 09:27 PM
I have used much carbon dioxide saying this many times, does not matter what we do in regards to carbon emissions in this country, it will NEVER make a difference as we contribute 0.2% of the worlds carbon emissions, we could stop all our emissions 100% and it wouldnt make the slightest difference.
Now recyclings another matter, very limited space for landfill so we have to, end of.
Whats boils my carrotts is, we used to be taxed on our fuel, on our gas guzzlers etc etc due to them not being green so the money would help the environment, bolox, this is just another revenue raiser and nothing gets done to the environment.
Some tree hugger was on the telly the other day saying if everybody bought electric cars how is the governmentgonna collect its taxes if they cant tax fuel, he wanted road pricing instead so everybody paid, so what be the incentive for an electric car again?
Then they announce the M6 toll has failed and hardly anyone will use it, no sh1te sherlock, get it opened up for everybody and stop under investing on our roads and there wont be tons and tons of fuel being wasted sitting in traffic.
but they want us to sit in traffic wasting fuel as it generates more revenue to pay for their monkeys that sit in an office doing nowt so they can say one less person on the dole.
ChrisSV
01-09-10, 10:01 PM
On average prodcuing a lithium battery for a hybrid car, and transporting it etc, uses the same amount of Co2 as running two average cars for around 75000 miles each, hmm green?
also these hybrid, the new Auris hybrid claims to have an mpg of 74, yet on test drives, the highest recorded was 45, and the lowest 5, on the same 10 mile journey.and the battery only works upto 27mph, and if you are using less than 33% of combined power (45.3bhp). How often do you do that or less unless your in london??
I agree with being nice to the planet and all that, put this push in reducing car emissions if rubbish, and the electric route is laughable.
davepreston
01-09-10, 10:14 PM
burn it, waste it, throw it away, and abuse all resources
hey it wont be my problem will it
we are told to scrap our cars which use more fuel and maybe are a little tired and to buy new ones, but as far as I know no one has published the actual full picture re the Co2 it takes to manufacture deliver, fuel, service a new car compared with running and eventually scraping the old car and I for one believe very strongly if it aint broke dont fix it, does the fuel a new car saves really pay back the extra manufacture C02 etc etc...
what makes my blood boil that the neivity of people who believe battery powered hybrids are environmentally friendly, the sources I have read indicate that the 100k cycle of a hybrid including mining the lithium etc etc is a lot more damaging than running and maufacturing a hummer for 100k miles. my standard non lithium powered oil burner diesel returns 54mpg thats about what these over hyped hybrids manage in the real world...
Exactly the same for boilers, scrap ur old one, buy a new one but really why? environmentally does it actually stack up.. I mean serioulsy if were taliking C02 please someone show me the figures which validate these claims of helping the environment.
why cant we have constructive information to base our decisions on.. like full life cycle c02 pictures, etc.
Great discussion!
You can get these figures but there not easy to find I remember watching a programme that put a 10 year old 1.6 focus against a new Honda Hybrid thingy and they worked out you would have to drive 96,000 miles to break even on the emissions trade of!
If the electric car thingy makes your blood boil this might make your p*ss boil aswell! A modern car engine is 40% efficient as in 10kW of Fuel after the combustion cycle becomes 4kW of actual measured work done, Now electric from the national grid is also 40% efficient so again 10kW of fossil fuels is burnt to get 4kW of energy from the plug you charge your car up!! So why is it green? because people dont see smoke coming out the exhaust and think its great, not to mention your point about the mining!
As for condensing boilers in your home? complete cr*p they rarely condense, usually only on a seriously cold day or when you use instaneous hot water from the boiler, they will only condense when running at 80%+ of there load usually they will only run at 40 - 50% so dont condense and rarely achieve the 90%+ efficiency they claim!
And your last comment of my quote I completely agree what about the emissions trade off from local fruit and veg against something flown in from south america? or manufacturing emissions we should all be able to make informed decisions instead of being mislead into thinking were being green!
However I do beleive in global warning, watch An inconvenient Truth, a couple of times and it goes some way to understanding the problems we face!
Take the hydro carbon propellants that were used in deodrants and hair sprays etc, a picture of the damage around the north pole from the 80's showed significant damage to the ozone layer and was linked to these propellents, since the ban a new image has been recorded in the last decade showing a 90% repair!
So from an extremely small angle (when compared to this massive debate) we should be looking at what we do and what effects it has on the environment because once our environment is gone we will be gone!
Done..... for the moment until im criticised!;)
The empirical problem is that the dominating influence on the planet is based on constant growth in a finite system.
Capitalism can't continue on a fixed size planet.
I think I'll be gone long before the environment.
The only thing that will change how 'we' use the planet's resources is inconvenience. Efforts to resolve our growing problems will only become serious when there is an undeniable, and immediate, danger to the lives and lifestyles of the world's powerbrokers.
metalangel
01-09-10, 11:30 PM
"Climate Change": Trying to judge a system millions of years old based on less than 200 years' worth of mostly inaccurate records. If things were cooling down, they'd come up with a doom story for that: reducing crop yields, ice ages, etc etc.
Hybrid cars: All down the fact that diesel cars in North America are all but non-existent apart from VAG cars. Everything else, from the smallest city car to the biggest SUV or pickup, is gasoline. It doesn't matter that per gallon a diesel is a huge amount more efficient...
hardhat_harry
02-09-10, 12:20 AM
Here is an inconvenient truth there are too many people on the planet, stop rewarding people to have kids.
amnesia
02-09-10, 06:41 AM
'Carbon Neutral'
What a load of horse sh*t.
Burn some oil = plant a tree.
Rubbish.
Once its burnt its gone. Its not coming back. We shouldn't be so bothered about being 'carbon neutral' - we should be spending our efforts getting our alternatives to fossil fuels sorted out.
The empirical problem is that the dominating influence on the planet is based on constant growth in a finite system.
Capitalism can't continue on a fixed size planet.
You've hit the nail on the head there.
BigBaddad
02-09-10, 07:05 AM
Think of capitalism as a global pyramid selling scheme. You need more and more consumers. Eventually it'll collapse, they always do. I'm not talking about the tiny little blip we've just had either.
"Climate Change": Trying to judge a system millions of years old based on less than 200 years' worth of mostly inaccurate records. If things were cooling down, they'd come up with a doom story for that: reducing crop yields, ice ages, etc etc.
Hybrid cars: All down the fact that diesel cars in North America are all but non-existent apart from VAG cars. Everything else, from the smallest city car to the biggest SUV or pickup, is gasoline. It doesn't matter that per gallon a diesel is a huge amount more efficient...#
the americans really didnt help things by making near as damnit every single car they made between the 50's up to modern day, with a wacking great 6litre engine that produces f*ck all horsepower and sounds like a gurgling drain.
tigersaw
02-09-10, 07:44 AM
Here is an inconvenient truth there are too many people on the planet, stop rewarding people to have kids.
precisely
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 08:28 AM
Hybrids are a flawed concept driven by idiots who should be educated with a shovel to the nose.
Exactly the same for boilers, scrap ur old one, buy a new one but really why? environmentally does it actually stack up.. I mean serioulsy if were taliking C02 please someone show me the figures which validate these claims of helping the environment.
One I'll be happy to chat about. We got a new boiler, our gas bill dropped by 30%. That's massive and will pay for itself within a few years. That's what I call a good idea :)
Whether they actually condense anything or not is not a great concern so long as efficiency is as high as possible. noticeably, higher than the 20 year old technology it replaces.
Lots of very cool things to be done with domestic heat, CHP, heat pumps etc. Just a little more complex than normal, but the possible gains are huge.
What annoys me more is the modern thing of making things overly complex and unserviceable beyond the warranty period. Applies to so many things. The waste is unbelievable.
Would be nice to see a return to building of quality equipment which could be repaired rather than thrown away.
Paul the 6th
02-09-10, 08:48 AM
Sounds like every single one of you will enjoy this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Long-Emergency-Converging-Catastrophes-Twenty-First/dp/0871138883
I never really knew about the politics, history, economics or effects of peak oil until I read this book. It shocked me into making conscious decisions about things like recycling and sparked an interest in alternative to fossil fuels, but sadly as it stands, there is no other energy source which contains as much stored energy, can be transported easily, is as stable at room temperature, is as easy to refine or which costs as little as petrol/diesel currently does... and these fossil fuels ARE in ABSOLUTELY everything we buy/do/see :( your bicycle, your best walking boots, that recycling bin outside your back door, even your home made organic bread...
454697819
02-09-10, 08:51 AM
Hybrids are a flawed concept driven by idiots who should be educated with a shovel to the nose.
One I'll be happy to chat about. We got a new boiler, our gas bill dropped by 30%. That's massive and will pay for itself within a few years. That's what I call a good idea :)
Whether they actually condense anything or not is not a great concern so long as efficiency is as high as possible. noticeably, higher than the 20 year old technology it replaces.
Lots of very cool things to be done with domestic heat, CHP, heat pumps etc. Just a little more complex than normal, but the possible gains are huge.
What annoys me more is the modern thing of making things overly complex and unserviceable beyond the warranty period. Applies to so many things. The waste is unbelievable.
Would be nice to see a return to building of quality equipment which could be repaired rather than thrown away.
You see Chris you have highlighted the "flaw"
As the consumer you are using less gas (assumed as ur bill has gone down) will the saved c02 actually out weigh the new manufacture and install + scrapping the old one? (I dont know the answer but as the consumer we see the money saving and go oooooh goody)
Most modern equipment can be repaired you just have to be happy with make do and mend not new shiny all the time...
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 08:53 AM
You see Chris you have highlighted the "flaw"
As the consumer you are using less gas (assumed as ur bill has gone down) will the saved c02 actually out weigh the new manufacture and install + scrapping the old one? (I dont know the answer but as the consumer we see the money saving and go oooooh goody)
Most modern equipment can be repaired you just have to be happy with make do and mend not new shiny all the time...
Yes, for that I think it will.
It's quite simple to equate money to CO2. The boiler was £1000, so it can't have "cost" more than x kg of CO2. If it pays for itself, it must be a saving.
despite living in 2010, we are still in the dark ages.
We burn oil/coal/gas to heat water to produce steam, to drive turbines, to produce electricity.
The same as we did 100 years ago!
Even nuclear fuel is used to heat water to produce steam.
Its beyond antiquated.
There are unmeasurable amounts of kinetic and potential energy on this planet. The oceans move, the wind moves, rain falls on top of hills, snow melts on top of mountains. The sun shines, The planet's core is thousands of degrees and we still burn stuff to make steam!
Politics is what stops it being used. A fear if upseting the equilibrium.
Just imagine if the government said we were all personally responsible for producing whatever power we want to use! How quickly would we all be rigging up wind turbines, water turbines and solar panels? How quickly would there be a solar panel on everything?
Via a business I used to be involved in I was privvy to a gadget that could have changed the world. A very simple device that was in use by the military. It could power anything, anywhere. The company responsible for it is now no more. I have no idea where the owner of the company is now. The whole thing wrapped up and dissapeared. Unfortunately I can't say anything more about it (so please don't ask).
The technology is out there and available now. But fear of upsetting the equilibrium prevents it from making its way into production or use outside of the millitary.
Why isn't every vehicle fitted with a hydroxy unit as it leaves the factory? Free power, less emissions and greater economy from water for a minimal investment. It could very easily be retro fitted to every vehicle by legislation. Its isn't.
This to me proves the Global warming hoax. If governments wanted to do something about it they could very easily do so. They don't. Global warming is a con. Its a controller fear. We have to be frightened to be controlled. Our attension has to be focussed on something bad so we don't notice we're being screwed.
Capitalism is directly at odds with global warming. We must continue to "grow" but that is in direct contradiction to "saving the planet". The western world will always put growth first so any other agenda is second.
So we pretend to grow conscientiously.
And so what if the planet is warming up. What are we going to do? give up? Or adapt?
Of course we are going to adapt. In the time it takes the planet to warm up we'll have adapated to it as a matter of course. We have the technology to do so. Which will, in turn, heat up the planet.
And just as an aside, Global warming is caused by heat. Everything we use on a daily basis now produces heat. Lights, cars, toasters, washing machines, central heating, computers, and ironically fridges and freezers.
For those that understand enthalpy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Only transfered from one state to another. We are in an ever increasing spiral of converting more energy into heat and it is this that is warming up the planet. The CO2 thing is just a handy "explanation" as it stops the extra heat we are all creating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year escaping into space. Its keeping it in.
CO2 isn't responsible for global warming. Its responsible for keeping in the extra heat in, that we constantly produce, that is causing global warming.
So there! :)
C
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 10:07 AM
Why isn't every vehicle fitted with a hydroxy unit as it leaves the factory? Free power, less emissions and greater economy from water for a minimal investment. It could very easily be retro fitted to every vehicle by legislation. Its isn't.
Er, what?
No such thing as free power
A "kers" based hydroxy unit is free power.
You could also run a wind turbine behind the radiator or take the power source from the turbo or exhaust gasses on overrun. you could also use a thermocouple from the engine manifold.
All "free" power.
C
Owenski
02-09-10, 10:32 AM
Just imagine if the government said we were all personally responsible for producing whatever power we want to use! How quickly would we all be rigging up wind turbines, water turbines and solar panels? How quickly would there be a solar panel on everything?C
You're not wrong there, just look at the 3rd world.
I've just got back from the Dom Rep and they have to pay about 2/3rd of the monthly earnings towards thier elect/water if they want all the hard work done for them.
So nearly every house has turbines, solar panels and rain water harvesting systems fitted so save as much money as possible. This is in the cities though, I imagine they've got very little choice out in the mountains.
So there is your solution; charge everyone £1000 per watt of elec they use and people will start becoming more self sufficient.
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 10:42 AM
A "kers" based hydroxy unit is free power.
You could also run a wind turbine behind the radiator or take the power source from the turbo or exhaust gasses on overrun. you could also use a thermocouple from the engine manifold.
All "free" power.
C
Yeah KERS would be good, no idea whether the actual power recovered would be worth the expense. Considering to develop hydrogen you'd have to have a fuel cell, storage etc which would be complex.
Wind turbine behind the rad, you'd pay for in air resistance. All the flow through the engine compartment gets CFD'd on modern cars to optimise it for cooling effectively with the least amount of high pressure area at the front.
Some way to recover waste heat would be good, but not sure how you'd do it in a viable way.
If the fan generator was brushless, the resistance would be negligible and the air going around the engine is more than turbulent enough to negate losses.
And a small hydroxy unit would be no problem to install. Even larger versions and multi cell versions can be accommodated quite easily. Just think outside the "box". It could be molded into any shape and attached pretty much anywhere.
Or why not go the whole hog?... (http://pesn.com/2010/08/10/9501686_Future_Energy_runs_truck_on_100_Percent_Hy droxy/)
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 10:59 AM
You're taking energy out of the air stream, there has to be some pressure loss there. One thing says "it's negligible loss" but if it's negligible loss, it must be negligible output.
Just same as the RAT turbines on jets, they don't run them all the time to drive the cabin electrics and such because the drag outweighs the gain.
One way you could do it, the waste heat from the engine is adding energy to the flow, so try to make it act like a ramjet, and extract some of that energy that way.
Problem is ramjets don't really work until you're up into high supersonics because otherwise there is no compression of the flow.
So, with the speeds of cars (basically at a standstill) you'd need a compressor and basically run it on turboshaft engine principle.
No idea whether that would be applicable to the volume and quality of heat dumped from a car engine!
Yachts use wind generators to charge their batteries. Do you really think the wind generator has any effect on the yacht? You are producing 12 volts (or whatever) from a fan that is being driven from a car travelling through the air, using the air that is required anyway, flowing through the radiator. It only needs to be big enough to drive a hydroxy unit. Not take off :)
Negligible losses. The wing mirrors alone would have a drag factor of tens more.
C
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 11:20 AM
It needs to be big enough to provide some useful electrical power. (or KERS, which would work)
A yachts wind generator is many orders of magnitude smaller than the yacht, you couldn't use the 12v generator to power the yacht itself.
Reason I think it flawed is you would have this thing there all the time adding drag. It might cost you 0.5mpg on the motorway for example, but I don't think you'd gain any more than that anywhere else as the efficiency cannot be more than 1.
For something like this to work you need to gain from a waste, you can't gain from a loss. So the KERS one would be great, or use the waste heat somehow. But not aerodynamically.
454697819
02-09-10, 11:20 AM
thats why more modern petrol engines are now using turbo's,
the BMW i drive is packed with efficient technology, I feel more smug about driving that than if I was enforced to have a prius!
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 11:23 AM
thats why more modern petrol engines are now using turbo's,
Turbos don't recover any energy in that way :-P
They add power, not efficiency. fact that some turbo engines are more efficient than others is because of design and refinement.
(i.e better to have a 1.5l engine at tickover, off boost, in traffic than a 2.5l N/A one)
there is no intrinsic reason a turbo(-supercharged) engine is any more efficient than a naturally aspirated one.
Turbo-compound engines on the other hand are a different animal. They do actually recover waste from the exhaust gas directly into shaft power.
Its pretty much irrelevant anyway as as you have seen from that link, its possible to run a car (or truck) completely on water. The only additional fuel required is for high load applications. And that fuel could also be stored, pressurised hydrogen (gathered at home from an hydroxy unit driven by wind turbine, solar cell or hydro system). If there is a 60psi reserve at the end of the journey then this could be used to start the car [system] the next time it is used So the only "fossil" fuel required would be to prime the system at inital start up and this again could be HHO mix gathered from a previous system.
One system begat all following systems. We could all be running on water and be producing nothing but water.
So why aren't we? ;)
C
454697819
02-09-10, 11:38 AM
Turbos don't recover any energy in that way :-P
They add power, not efficiency. fact that some turbo engines are more efficient than others is because of design and refinement.
(i.e better to have a 1.5l engine at tickover, off boost, in traffic than a 2.5l N/A one)
there is no intrinsic reason a turbo(-supercharged) engine is any more efficient than a naturally aspirated one.
Turbo-compound engines on the other hand are a different animal. They do actually recover waste from the exhaust gas directly into shaft power.
I know what you mean.. I typed my lamen response with little thinking,
they use the pressure from the exhaust to spin the turbo though...
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 12:01 PM
Its pretty much irrelevant anyway as as you have seen from that link,
I think it's full of sh*t that one actually.
Where are they producing energy from? There's lots of stuff about psi, and ionising the gas mixture, which is all well and good.
They take power from the alternator, which is driven by the petrol engine!
So, petrol engine, 40% efficient, generator, 80%, hydroxy cell 90%???, petrol engine, 40% efficient.
11.5% efficient.
Looking quite like you might as well not bother...
Anyway, I still think they're a bunch of f***in conmen like all the rest of the people selling "free energy" to idiot Americans.
Their cell apparently makes 50l of hydrogen at 3.02V 55A. Or 166W.
50l of hydrogen, conservative guess at stp condition (0.08988g/l) = 4.494x10^-3 kg of gas/min.
Per min, better in per secs.
7.49x10^-5 kg/s
H2, 141790kJ/Kg.
calorific value out of the cell, 10,620W. :rolleyes:
From 166W? Even with my guess being probably a factor of 2 or 3 out... they're full of sh*t.
If they are going to try tell you that, no such thing as owt for nowt.
Got to love irony that you said about principle of enthalpy earlier, then link to a system which tries to con people who don't understand the idea of entropy :mrgreen:
I know what you mean.. I typed my lamen response with little thinking,
they use the pressure from the exhaust to spin the turbo though...
Aye, they do, but that just stuffs more air into the engine. It's a power-adder not an energy recoverer.
I'd be interested to see what would happen if the power recovered was fed to the shaft rather than a turbine.
Paul the 6th
02-09-10, 12:41 PM
I wonder if there was anyone smarter than YC on his engineering course? Bet he had a bit of an inferiority complex :razz:
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 12:42 PM
I wonder if there was anyone smarter than YC on his engineering course? Bet he had a bit of an inferiority complex :razz:
Loads of eggheads! I was the daft, drunk one!
I Understand effiecience modelling.
and if you happen to come up with a way around it?
http://www.futureenergyconceptsinc.com/products
They intend to give the technology away when its finalised so what use would a con be?
http://www.youtube.com/user/FutureEnergyConcepts
Very easy to Poo Poo this stuff.
I'd go and work for them ;)
C
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 01:04 PM
With all ideas of resonances and tuning in the world, breaking a bond between molecules requires an amount of energy.
That is the end of it.
If there is a way around this (which I do not believe there is) then congratulations, you just created completely free power.
I say the maths do not, and cannot, add up. Show me one of these devices that has stood up to logical scrutiny. show me one peer reviewed paper showing one working.
It is voodoo, and they're trying to sell it to idiot Americans who like driving 6.7 liter garden sheds that do 200 yards to the gallon. Same people who sell you magnets to put in your petrol tank.
Well, time will tell. Lets see what Prototype 7 looks like ;)
as I said before, I've seen stuff that shouldn't be possible work very well and be buried. Lets hope this isn't.
C
yorkie_chris
02-09-10, 01:12 PM
Sure, selling drawings to idiots who think it can work is lucrative work ;)
Told you, show me one working... like actually working, where you can measure outputs.
Note they don't mention the motor octane rating of hydrogen on there. I wonder why.
Selling? I didn't find a "buy it now" button anywhere on that site.
C
vBulletin® , Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.