How bl00dy much !!!!! [Archive] - SV650.org

Cymraeg_Atodeg

11-09-10, 08:17 AM

So how come HJC can do it for a tenth of the price? (http://londonbikers.com/news/3131/hjc-fs-10-carbon-helmet-light-in-weight-heavy-in-features)

you can see there is a different weave between the helmets and I imagine the HJC one will most likely be either a carbon-fibre covering or just a simple (cheap) design.

A lot of effort has gone into making the Arai one (you can see that in the weave pattern) and with most things in life more man hours to make means more cost

Berlin

11-09-10, 08:27 AM

Cymraeg_Atodeg

11-09-10, 08:34 AM

Thats just a different cloth. The manufacturing process in the same. and I can gaurantee you that cloth doesn't make it 10 times more expensive. ;) (even if the cloth itself was 10 times more expensive.

You can have the weave looking however you want it and it could be argued that the Arai weave is for visual appeal and is inherently weaker than the HJC

C

I am not arguing about the strength of the weave or the cost of manufacture, but, the cost of sale to Arai because of its design over that of the HJC most likely induces the cost, also, the basic FS-10 is a £180 helmet where as the RX-7 is closer to £600, IIRC...

So, they are both tripling the price, no?

-Ralph-

11-09-10, 09:01 AM

Arai will be piling on a lot more margin than HJC. What they sell it for will have a lot more to do with what they think they can get for it through the "I'm rich and I want the most bling" factor, than the cost of manufacture. I'd be prepared to bet the standard RX-7 doesn't cost three times what it costs to manufacture the FS-10 either.

Cymraeg_Atodeg

11-09-10, 09:08 AM

mikerj

11-09-10, 09:24 AM

I am not arguing about the strength of the weave or the cost of manufacture, but, the cost of sale to Arai because of its design over that of the HJC most likely induces the cost, also, the basic FS-10 is a £180 helmet where as the RX-7 is closer to £600, IIRC...

So, they are both tripling the price, no?

So do you believe that a pair of Levis also costs 10x more to manufacture than own brand jeans? The most expensive part of the Arai helmet is the Arai badge, it's as simple as that.

Cymraeg_Atodeg

11-09-10, 09:27 AM

So do you believe that a pair of Levis also costs 10x more to manufacture than own brand jeans? The most expensive part of the Arai helmet is the Arai badge, it's as simple as that.

I personally don't care how much Arai helmets cost. If I can afford one I will buy one! I have had three now, two have saved my head from any damage, so, worth the cost in my book

Amanda

11-09-10, 09:41 AM

Cymraeg_Atodeg

11-09-10, 09:48 AM

Selling helmet and having Arai in the store means we have to justify the price every day. Knowing the brand, the care and attention to detail, the service, the technology and everything to do with Arai, I can hand on heart absolutely say they are priced correctly for what has gone into them. Arai make SAFE helmets to save lives, entry level would be around the £300 mark, cheaper when they release the new "Axes" at £260.

If you wanna spend £50 on a few bits of plastic to protect your head then thats your choice, I have an Arai cos I believe it will protect me better!

That said, we are selling the Carbon Fibre one at £2099 and I can't imagine anyone stretching to that unless it was for a status symbol. (PM me if you want one lol)

If I had £2.1k spare I doubt it would be going on a helmet. I would buy it and then have it on a shelf somewhere, lol.

I agree with the quality aspect. In life you get what you pay for.

My first helmet was a Duchinni D801, it was loud, windy inside and "felt" cheap. It cost me £50, so, not really a surprise...

I think bought a Haga rep Chaser for £370, I only had it a month, but, it saved my head from the floor via the truck, so, I won't wear anything but Arai if I can afford it :-)

Berlin

11-09-10, 09:55 AM

If you wanna spend £50 on a few bits of plastic to protect your head then thats your choice, I have an Arai cos I believe it will protect me better!

Ah, the power of marketing ;)

Its a bit like buying Sainsburies Ibuprofen for 16p a box versus buying Neurofen for £2.65. They both have to pass the same (very stringent) standards.

Maybe your Arai gives you 10% more protection for five times the price and if you're happy to pay that then great but just because something is more expensive, doesn't automatically make it better.

I hope you never have the accident where the extra 10% saves your life.

I'm all for buying the "best" (whatever that may be) out there but please don't try and tell me its because its 10 times better.

I was involved in a fishing rod comparative test for a magazine a while back (background in carbon fibre, hence my input). There worked out to be a 20% difference in "Quality" in the test from a £39 rod and a £795 rod... and only a 10% difference in performance. Some of the mid priced products were worse than the cheap products!

You pays your money you gets your product. :)

C

simesb

11-09-10, 10:13 AM

If you wanna spend £50 on a few bits of plastic to protect your head then thats your choice, I have an Arai cos I believe it will protect me better!

Not this old **** again. There is no evidence that the Arai will protect you better (except the SHARP test where they come off worse, so obviously isn't relevant) - anecdotal evidence doesn't count because you didn't crash twice in different helmets.

What I will say about Arai is that I find them more comfortable than some others, and I find the aftersales good, and the linings are of a nicer material. Do I think they are safer? No. Do I think that the overall quality is worth a premium? Yes.

mikerj

11-09-10, 03:24 PM

I personally don't care how much Arai helmets cost. If I can afford one I will buy one! I have had three now, two have saved my head from any damage, so, worth the cost in my book

If you had also crashed twice with a cheaper brand of helmet and received head injuries each time then you may have had a valid argument...

Cymraeg_Atodeg

11-09-10, 06:45 PM

If you had also crashed twice with a cheaper brand of helmet and received head injuries each time then you may have had a valid argument...

I would rather have a smash in a helmet I feel is going to protect me reguardless of cost then risk it with a cheap helmet

simesb

11-09-10, 06:50 PM

I would rather have a smash in a helmet I feel is going to protect me reguardless of cost then risk it with a cheap helmet

Regardless of cost, as long as it isn't cheap?

Tell me; if HJC doubled their prices to be more in line with Arai/Shoei, would you consider them safer?

Cymraeg_Atodeg

11-09-10, 06:53 PM

Regardless of cost, as long as it isn't cheap?

Tell me; if HJC doubled their prices to be more in line with Arai/Shoei, would you consider them safer?

No, because HJC's don't fit my head :smt064

Whitehouse

11-09-10, 07:22 PM

id say the main factor is to make sure it fits right first, that why i have an arai due to it being one of the only helmets that i could wear without bashing my chin! lol

tbh the general quality of the product feels better than others iv picked up, im not saying it would protect my head any better but it makes me feel like iv one of the best helmets i could afford on my head

theres no way id be paying that much for a helmet though, doesnt matter what make it is!

Holdup

11-09-10, 08:48 PM

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/popcorn.gif

But yeh, Arai ftw, cus it fits on my noggin

-Ralph-

11-09-10, 09:15 PM

If you wanna spend £50 on a few bits of plastic to protect your head then thats your choice, I have an Arai cos I believe it will protect me better!)

You can't compare an Arai to a £50 quid piece of plastic, then use that to justify the price.

I think there's a big difference between a £50 lid such as a Takachi or a Nitro, and a £150-200 HJC, AGV, etc. I don't believe there is the same difference in protection between those reputable £150 quid helmets and the Arai. Sure there are things such as nicer linings, aftersales service, etc, etc, that justify some of the premium, but there is no denying that the badge costs money.

It doesn't.

I know from a dealer that they buy the rrp £370 Arai Chaser for £195

Amanda, you manage an HG store, tell us what markup you have on an Arai lid, versus the equivalent spec HJC?

There are also brands which I believe are not as safe, but still charge decent money such as Caberg.

You can't justify it because you've crashed in one either, because how do you know that the HJC, AGV, etc wouldn't have also left you unharmed in the same crash?

I've heard people try to justify the cost on fit as well, 'cos an Arai fits you better than any other lid. That's a personal justification only and doesn't apply to anybody else, because you have an Arai shaped noggin. They don't fit me and certainly don't fit everybody, so you can't say "try an Arai, it'll definitely fit better"

Amanda

11-09-10, 09:41 PM

If anyone wants to pop into the store and enter into a discussion about why I believe Arai will protect me better than a £50 helmet then I would be more than happy to tell them.

Specialone

11-09-10, 09:41 PM

Actually col, some arai lids have lower safety passes than some cheaper lids.

I remember reading last year about their average safety performance, which was no better than sub £100 lids.
My first lid was a lazer, it had the 5 star rating or whatever it is so no worse than my arai.
Most lids will meet a decent standard of safety, as long as they have the test sticker on it i guess.
I didnt choose mine on the safety aspect, i chose mine on comfort, then design.

BTW, arai dont allow dealers to discount, thats why the prices are not much apart regardless of where you go unless its unofficially imported, price fixing i guess, they wont allow you to stock their lids if you do discount, two different arai dealers told me that.

Everything we buy has a badge premium, you think bmw's do a better job of getting you from A to B than a vw or ford? course they dont, do you think a £1000 handbag had the same level of effort put in to it to design and make it as a £500 lid, of course it doesnt

-Ralph-

11-09-10, 09:52 PM

If anyone wants to pop into the store and enter into a discussion about why I believe Arai will protect me better than a £50 helmet then I would be more than happy to tell them.

Who on this thread do you think would try to argue that? (OK, Simesb maybe, but is he seriously trying to say a £50 quid lid is as safe as a £300 Arai?)

Price is not all about safety anyway. My wife has a bottom of the range HJC that was £80 quid. I believe it's just as safe as my HJC, but it doesn't have removable linings, sun visor, pinlock, etc, so the price difference is about features, not safety. Her helmet probably hasn't done more than 2000 miles in 4 years, so she doesn't need them. So is her £80 quid HJC safer than an £300 Arai? If you look at Specialones post above maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I'm happier that she is wearing that than a £29.99 unbranded plastic shell out of Aldi.

Specialone

11-09-10, 09:57 PM

Who on this thread do you think would try to argue that?

But could she catergorically say that a £50 helmet wouldnt protect her as well as an arai?
If it protects your head and you live, it worked, end of, i would say 99% of lids available on the market would do just that, perfectly well.
Id trust my lazer lid just as much as my arai.

-Ralph-

11-09-10, 10:07 PM

But could she catergorically say that a £50 helmet wouldnt protect her as well as an arai?

Categorically, no. But I'd still be happy to put money on it. These really cheap helmets (Takachi, Nitro, etc) are built to pass the tests (ie: be strong in the areas that they know get tested), they haven't gone through the same R&D into how to protect the human head. I think you do at least need a "reputable" brand. Maybe your Lazer was a good one, but I wouldn't trust my Caberg compared to my HJC, you only need to stick it on your head to tell the difference, and some of the really cheap stuff you only have to pick it up and look at it. I'll let you try the Caberg next time you're in my garage.

If it protects your head and you live, it worked, end of, i would say 99% of lids available on the market would do just that, perfectly well..

I think that depends how hard and where/how you hit your head.

simesb

11-09-10, 11:39 PM

OK, Simesb maybe, but is he seriously trying to say a £50 quid lid is as safe as a £300 Arai?

I am serious; prove to me that a £50 ECE 22.05(?) lid it is not 'as safe' as a £300 one :confused:

No two accidents are the same, but they have many common factors. Statutory tests are designed around these common factors, and helmets are designed to pass these tests so they can legally be sold. They may go about passing the test in different ways, but the all pass the same tests. Where the UK government has tried to show how helmets have performed relatively, Arai and Shoei have dismissed the results as flawed.

People like lids they have crashed in, and with good reason; people like to feel they can trust their safety gear. People like a light, comfortable helmet for obvious reasons.

I used to have an HJC, but now have an Arai. I am willing to pay the premium as I find the Arai a much 'better' helmet, but I don't kid myself that it is necessarily 'safer'

DarrenSV650S

12-09-10, 12:20 AM

These really cheap helmets (Takachi, Nitro, etc) are built to pass the tests (ie: be strong in the areas that they know get tested), they haven't gone through the same R&D into how to protect the human head.

How do you know

beabert

12-09-10, 07:57 AM

Not this old **** again. There is no evidence that the Arai will protect you better (except the SHARP test where they come off worse, so obviously isn't relevant) - anecdotal evidence doesn't count because you didn't crash twice in different helmets.

What I will say about Arai is that I find them more comfortable than some others, and I find the aftersales good, and the linings are of a nicer material. Do I think they are safer? No. Do I think that the overall quality is worth a premium? Yes.

+1

If you had also crashed twice with a cheaper brand of helmet and received head injuries each time then you may have had a valid argument...

+1

Categorically, no. But I'd still be happy to put money on it. These really cheap helmets (Takachi, Nitro, etc) are built to pass the tests (ie: be strong in the areas that they know get tested), they haven't gone through the same R&D into how to protect the human head. I think you do at least need a "reputable" brand. Maybe your Lazer was a good one, but I wouldn't trust my Caberg compared to my HJC, you only need to stick it on your head to tell the difference, and some of the really cheap stuff you only have to pick it up and look at it. I'll let you try the Caberg next time you're in my garage.

I think that depends how hard and where/how you hit your head.

You have basically just said the arai is weaker in the areas the test tests! If it were me i'd rather go by the only rating system we have, rather then guess.

SVFreak

12-09-10, 08:17 AM

That's a ridiculous price and totally unneccesary.

-Ralph-

12-09-10, 08:25 AM

How do you know

Blame the journalists, but I'd rather believe some scientist commissioned by some journalists to do some testing rather than marketing blurb. The tests carried out by bike magazine (which were similar to SHARP tests but took it a bit further and did the same tests to lots of different areas) showed that the cheap helmets were weaker in the areas that didn't get tested for UN ECE approval (ie: they test the forehead so they make it stronger at the forehead), therefore concluded the helmets were being built specifically to pass the test. Pity I don't still have the magazine or I'd scan it and post it.

You have basically just said the arai is weaker in the areas the test tests! If it were me i'd rather go by the only rating system we have, rather then guess.

Errm? Read it again! I said the cheap helmets were built to "be strong in the areas that they know get tested", how does that possibly translate to "Arai's are weaker in those areas"?

davepreston

12-09-10, 02:52 PM

People like lids they have crashed in, and with good reason; people like to feel they can trust their safety gear. People like a light, comfortable helmet for obvious reasons.
sumed up perfectly
ive binned it a few times wearing shoei's they have always done their job , so i will continue to buy shoei for that reason, i found it works and if (some may say when) i bin it again the thoughts going thru my head wont be i hope this lid holds up to this punishment

now if id binned it wearing a 50 quid nitro and it had done its job i would continue to by nitro

as simon said its a trust thing for me not a price thing

yorkie_chris

12-09-10, 04:28 PM

Errm? Read it again! I said the cheap helmets were built to "be strong in the areas that they know get tested", how does that possibly translate to "Arai's are weaker in those areas"?

I don't believe this is true.

R+D costs money, complicated moulds cost money, more pieces to assemble cost money. EPS costs 3/5ths of f*** all.

If I was building a cheap lid, I'd make it so the shell and foam was of the correct type to behave as needed in an impact in any area. You end up with a fairly heavy lid which probably wouldn't have very good ventilation (sound familiar?).

With arai you are paying for features and clever design (or not so clever visors...) and aftersale care. Up to you if you can justify the price for the service. They don't fit me, but even if they did I'd rather have a less fancy brand with less aftersales that's got better features than an entry level arai.
Compare arai condor to shoei... for same price you have shoei all pinlocked up with spare visors (stuff that IMO, you need, rather than aftersale which is just "nice" to have). But that's just my take on value.

I don't believe there is any safety difference worth mentioning. It's a simple case of force vs distance and energy. Try two different foams, one might save your life if you hit a kerbstone, the other might do if you hit something flat. Which is safer? You end up with problems like SHARP tests which tell you nothing, because you can't account for every crash being different.

I'm sure I had a point to make with this wandering keyboard diarrhoea...

Oh yeah, £50 lids are shi'ite. Who cares if they're safe in a crash when you'll probably freeze to death before you have chance to crash.

Dave20046

12-09-10, 05:34 PM

Schuberth do one for between £400 and £800 weighs feck all!

barwel1992

12-09-10, 05:39 PM

thats a stupid price !

and if rossi wares my lid and is comfortable to do 170+ then i sure feel confident doing 70+ in it

simesb

12-09-10, 05:43 PM

and if rossi wares my lid and is comfortable to do 170+ then i sure feel confident doing 70+ in it

Rossi is confident that AGV give him lots of money to wear their lids. If Arai stumped up the readies, he'd suddenly become comfortable doing 170+ in one of theirs. :D

barwel1992

12-09-10, 05:52 PM

Rossi is confident that AGV give him lots of money to wear their lids. If Arai stumped up the readies, he'd suddenly become comfortable doing 170+ in one of theirs. :D

im sure he would, but i doubt he would ware a lid that wouldn't protect him (mind you any helmet have to be ACU gold cert to near a track any way)

-Ralph-

12-09-10, 05:56 PM

I don't believe there is any safety difference worth mentioning

That's not what the magazine article concluded though, in tests such as a spike penetration, rotational friction, bludgeon it with a set force and measure how much force was felt on the inside of the helmet, etc, etc, all lids did not perform the same. Like I said I wish I had it because that article along with my own feelings/beliefs on the subject are the basis of my arguments on this thread. It would be easier to just post it and let people make up their own minds on the conclusion. I certainly read it and decided I would never buy a £50 lid, but a £150 lid was no worse safety wise than an Arai.

RE: the trust thing, if you have crashed in a particular brand of lid and it has had serious impact, been destroyed, and yet still protected your head, then I'd understand forming a trust of a certain brand. I can't understand people trusting a certain lid if all that happened in their crash was that the lid skidded down the road. How do those people know how that same lid would have performed in a heavy impact?

yorkie_chris

12-09-10, 11:06 PM

That's not what the magazine article concluded though, in tests such as a spike penetration, rotational friction, bludgeon it with a set force and measure how much force was felt on the inside of the helmet, etc, etc, all lids did not perform the same.

My argument is those factors are all a trade off, spike penetration for example, make the shell material harder or thicker and have more force from a blunt impact. You end up testing just to find out where the designer thought the best trade off was, which doesn't tell you much.

What is needed is some people to launch some crash test dummies into some road furniture to see what the impacts are like statistically. Then again, any impact that you are likely to get like that is probably going to kill you regardless of a few percent more or less protection.

Rotational friction is good one to test for, out of curiosity did the cheapy plastic shell lids do well in that?

My caberg exploded when I landed on it, shell flexed enough to shatter all the hard plastic vents and visor mechanism and such. did it's job :)

xXBADGERXx

13-09-10, 12:05 AM

Personally , I have worn Arai ever since the Rapide , was an ok lid , then I got a Giga and that was a legendary helmet for me , quiet , stylish , an excellent fit and saved my head in a nasty accident . I am now on a Corsair which is louder due to removeable lining , features don`t seem to be as good as my Giga but here is the issue .... this helmet has done a ridiculous amount of miles . I have had to stick the neck rand back on 3 times due to it catching on my Kriega when I do safety glances , the paint is chipping , the visor probably due for replacement soon , the neck part is wearing out and there is a teeny fray on the strap . This sounds like a complaint on quality ?

Well ........... NO . This lid has been in Daily use in all weathers for the best part of 5 years (maybe the occasional Xmas day and other such celebratory days it was not used) . I would estimate that it has done in the region of 80,000 miles all told ... heck maybe even more , yeah it`s seen better days but I can wear it all day , every day and feel comfortable in it , happy that it does what it is supposed to do . It is due for a replacement and I will buy another Corsair . I have other lids , sure they are pretty and appear to do the same thing but they just aren`t as comfy and induce a feeling of "hope we stop soon so I can peel this off" .

What was I babbling about ? . Anyway , I`ll buy Arai again , they last longer than most of my mates cheaper lids , seen lids with a quarter of the mileage of mine looking alot worse , tests are a load of Donkey Nuts (if it`s good enough for the majority of racers and road users the world over then it`s good enough for me) , I don`t believe in marketing hype , it has to fit well firstly to do it`s job correctly and Arai fit the bill for me ..... but I certainly wouldn`t get the Carbon one or even one of the newer GP lids . Corsair in plain colour will suffice .

davepreston

13-09-10, 01:56 AM

RE: the trust thing, if you have crashed in a particular brand of lid and it has had serious impact, been destroyed, and yet still protected your head, then I'd understand forming a trust of a certain brand. I can't understand people trusting a certain lid if all that happened in their crash was that the lid skidded down the road. How do those people know how that same lid would have performed in a heavy impact?
well ive been thru a few shoei raid 2's im about to go buy number 4, all did there job in various types of offs at different speeds from 30mph to over a ton, ive hit tarmac, cars, kerbs and even my own bike

so in instances like this i belive people should take my advice on the safety of raid 2's unless they wish to join my org crash testing team :p
full write ups in the gear section ;)

-Ralph-

13-09-10, 08:12 AM

Rotational friction is good one to test for, out of curiosity did the cheapy plastic shell lids do well in that?

No they didn't do well, but did the more expensive lids do any better? I can't really remember to be honest. What I do remember is that the lids that had specifically been designed with materials to reduce rotational friction did better in the test.

seen lids with a quarter of the mileage of mine looking alot worse

Longevity is a good point that nobody has made so far to justify the price.

keith_d

13-09-10, 09:06 AM

I'd break down the manufacturers costs for producing a helmet this way:

R&D & design / sales
Tooling & setup / sales
Marginal cost of production (materials, man-hours, power, overheads)
Packaging and distribution
Manufacturers profit
Cost of capital
Marketing
Sunk costs (losses from unsuccessful designs)

For a short run of £2k carbon fibre lids I'd expect the first two items on the list to dominate the price. Overall, I expect this design will make a loss, even at £2000, and contribute to the sunk costs element in all their lids.

However, as a marketing exercise to try and sell more of their high-end lids is might still be worthwhile. After all, it's got us talking about their helmets (again).

Keith.

boot

13-09-10, 11:04 PM

^^ Makes sense.

Am I the only one that thinks it looks terrible? I wouldn't pay £50 for a lid that looked like that.

barwel1992

13-09-10, 11:06 PM

^ agreed now the standard monster energy rep one is NICE

xXBADGERXx

14-09-10, 06:52 AM

All Monster logos look cack on anything ...... in years to come you are gonna roll your eyes when you see them on bikes and think "There was somebody who was an individual with their own imagination"

Drew Carey

14-09-10, 07:23 AM

If I ever see someone wearing one of these I will slap them round the face with a wet kipper.

Total waste of money.....could buy a whole bike for that!!!!

boot

14-09-10, 09:15 AM

...could buy a whole bike for that!!!!

Could do theory, CBT, buy riding gear, bike, insurance and even do accelerated access for that!

yorkie_chris

14-09-10, 11:35 AM

Dave20046

14-09-10, 12:38 PM

its all bolocks I've crashed in a £30 lid and I've crashed in a £130 lid (rrp was £250 if I recall) different crashes, different outcomes. on paper they're rated the same, protection wise ,so unless u Iz a hexpert how can you argue differently?
i'm more convinced its people who like shiny things justifying the price to themselves.
if they're rated the same and haven't been kicked around by a postie I'd rather have a well fitting nitro than a slightly loose £2k arai.
the only reason I would avoid a cheap lid is that the linings/fitment tends to go baggy quicker which can be dangerous.

-Ralph-

14-09-10, 02:49 PM

on paper they're rated the same, protection wise, so unless u Iz a hexpert how can you argue differently?

And how valuable or worthy is that piece of paper they are rated on anyway?

Are we saying that all safety products are equal, regardless of price, design or manufacturer, simply because they all carry a BS stamp?

yorkie_chris

14-09-10, 02:51 PM

And how valuable or worthy is that piece of paper they are rated on anyway?

Are we saying that all safety products are equal, regardless of price, design or manufacturer, simply because they all carry a BS stamp?

Actually you can apply pretty similar argument.

CE rated armour in leathers is all going to be similar impact rating.
CE rated leathers will work well. CE rated textile from halvarssons will work well.

You can buy expensive leathers that don't work properly too.

You can buy some crap not rated for safety at all, and it might work, or might not!

-Ralph-

14-09-10, 03:24 PM

I guess what we are really debating here is whether a more expensive helmet = a safer helmet.

According to SHARP, and lets face it whether you rate the system of not, it's the best rating system we have and better than BS or ECE, the answer is yes.

Here are 27 helmets rated 5 stars by SHARP, average price £243.11

There are not 27 1 star helmets, so I've taken the bottom 27 helmets to keep the number equal, all 1 or 2 star. Average price £106.19.

Number of sub £99 helmets in the 5 star list? Only 2, well done Caberg and Laser (surprises me my perception from owning a Caberg V2 is not good)

Number of sub £99 helmets in the 1&2 star list? 14!

Three HJC's in the bottom 27, including mine, really surprised me, I'd definitely have rated my IS-16 above my Caberg. I suppose this is testing brand new helmets. If you tested my 20k mile Caberg against a 20k mile HJC you might get a different result, the lining in the Caberg has collapsed completely. At least the cheapest HJC that my wife is wearing gets a more respectable rating, but then it's no frills (sun visor, removable linings, etc) so it's all impact protection.

So according to SHARP, sub £100 helmets are generally not as safe as their more expensive alternatives.

SHARP 5 star rated helmets (27 helmets in total)
AGV GP Tech 399.00
AGV S-4 170.00
AGV Stealth 199.00
Arai GP5X 250.00
Bell M1 165.00
Bell M4R 300.00
Bell M5X 299.00
Bell M4R Carbon 410.00
Bell M5X Carbon 495.00
BMW System 5 255.00
Buell Turbulent 180.00
Caberg V2R 110.00
Caberg Trip 90.00
HJC HQ1 270.00
Lazer LZ6 70.00
Marushin 777 Tiger 99.00
Marushin RS1 Carbon 200.00
Marushin 777 Samura 99.00
Nitro N1700VF 119.00
Shark RSR2 320.00
Shark RSR2 Carbon 439.00
Shark RSX 169.00
Shoei XR-1100 379.00
Suomy Vandal 299.00
AGV T2 299.00
Shoei X Spirit II 480.00
Average Price 243.11

Bottom 27 of the 2 & 3 star rated helmets
Arashi Daytona 55.00
Dainese Airstream 190.00
Duchinni D601 90.00
Fusion Tranz 80.00
Harley Davidson Laguna II 165.00
HJC CS-R1 99.00
KBC Force RR 90.00
KBC FFR 140.00
KBC Magnum 139.00
KBC TK8 59.00
NZI Convert III 120.00
RST PC1S 60.00
RST Fusion 110.00
Vemar VSSEV 119.00
CMS GP4 60.00
CMS GP5F 159.00
Airoh Mathisse RS 150.00
Arai Condor 240.00
Box BX4 80.00
Box BX3 Dagger 54.00
Fusion G921 60.00
HJC CS-12 69.00
HJC IS-16 119.00
KBC VR2R 180.00
Lazer Tornado 90.00
Nitro N330VX 50.00
Nitro N1000V 40.00
Average Price 106.19

Dave20046

14-09-10, 05:45 PM

And how valuable or worthy is that piece of paper they are rated on anyway?

I would hazard a guess at more worthy than a shop's price tag.:smt109

-Ralph-

14-09-10, 07:06 PM

I would hazard a guess at more worthy than a shop's price tag.:smt109

Of course there are the odd exceptions, but it would seem from the lists above, that SHARP disagree with you.

fizzwheel

14-09-10, 07:40 PM

According to SHARP, and lets face it whether you rate the system of not, it's the best rating system we have and better than BS or ECE, the answer is yes.

But hows the rating system any use if as has been alluded to elsewhere that manufacturers are building a helmet with extra strength purely in the places where the sharp test will do an impact test and therefore possibly gain what one might argue is a false score.

Specialone

14-09-10, 08:40 PM

Im sure my first lid, lazer vertigo had 5 stars or close to it, £90, bargain by the sounds of it :rolleyes:
I bought my £370 arai chaser, cos i liked the fit and the paint scheme looked nice ;)

-Ralph-

14-09-10, 09:00 PM

But hows the rating system any use if as has been alluded to elsewhere that manufacturers are building a helmet with extra strength purely in the places where the sharp test will do an impact test and therefore possibly gain what one might argue is a false score.

That accusation was levelled by Bike magazine at manufacturers getting a pass mark at the ECE approval, not the SHARP test. The SHARP test is supposed to be more comprehensive and gives a rating, not just a pass/fail.

-Ralph-

14-09-10, 09:04 PM

Im sure my first lid, lazer vertigo had 5 stars or close to it, £90, bargain by the sounds of it :rolleyes:
I bought my £370 arai chaser, cos i liked the fit and the paint scheme looked nice ;)

The Lazer LZ6 is a nice result for Lazer, the Arai Condor however... :rolleyes:

Amanda

14-09-10, 10:23 PM

I don't want to be drawn into an argument about Arai however I really feel that the sharp rating needs to be understood properly and why Arai come out of it so bad.

Sharp tests the helmets in 5 places, front, back, crown, left and right. The main issue is that the side test is carried out directly in the middle of the left and right sides of the helmet. Arai have less interior padding around the ears to make it more comfortable and this is the reason they are failing the test. They have proved that they can pass the test purely by using one piece of bubble wrap in the ear cavity!!! Likewise it has been proved in test scenarios that it is near on impossible to impact the ear area in an accident, the head always tilts away from or towards the point of impact. That said Arai would pass in any area directly circling the ear.

Arai make helmets to survive accidents not pass tests, their build quality and longevity are second to none. There are helmets out there that are strengthened purely in the places the "Sharp test" test.

After all this discussion I would still maintain that the safest helmet is the best fitting one whether that be Arai, AGV, Box, Laser or the many others available.

p.s. If you need more proof .... Nakano is the only rider to walk away from a 200mph face plant, he was wearing an Arai. Go google it

mikerj

15-09-10, 07:33 AM

If Arai can peform an apparently trivial design change to make their helmets get a high SHARP score, then why don't they do this? Irrespective of whether they feel this makes the hemlet safer or not, this is at the very least a marketing opportunity that a company would be insane to miss.

OTOH perhaps it's not quite as easy as you suggest...

Likewise it has been proved in test scenarios that it is near on impossible to impact the ear area in an accident, the head always tilts away from or towards the point of impact.

That is BS I'm afraid, there is no way you can replicate every conceivable accident scenario - I can envisage may ways you could receive a blow to the side of the head from other vehicles or street furniture.

So according to SHARP, sub £100 helmets are generally not as safe as their more expensive alternatives.

Be interesting to see how that table changes when you put in the actual selling prices of helmets rather than RRPs, the companies involved in price fixing might not fair too well.

Amanda

15-09-10, 06:18 PM

That is BS I'm afraid, there is no way you can replicate every conceivable accident scenario - I can envisage may ways you could receive a blow to the side of the head from other vehicles or street furniture.

To hit the ear area would mean a direct hit at that level. Anything hitting below the shoulder will cause the head to tilt first. I did say near on impossible, not impossible. It's not exactly a common area to receive a hit yet this is where Sharp test. Would be better to place a common impact area like the chin guard!

yorkie_chris

15-09-10, 08:35 PM

I agree with chin guard for flip-lids, they should get a good belt to make sure they're strong enough.

But, common force-test would be meaningless here. You can get a really good crack there and just wobble your face a bit... which won't kill you :-P

jambo

16-09-10, 06:19 PM

I don't particularly feel that £2k is worth is for a lid. I'd certainly feel I was paying for bling, and frankly I don't have that sort of walking around money...

However I do have an Arai and feel it's the comfiest, best fitting lid I've ever owned. I'm tight, so I got one in out of production colours at a knock-down price. Would buy again in a heartbeat.

I do take exception to the "They've all passed the same test so protect as well" argument. That's like saying "All these students got an A-C pass so they must all be as good". There are A* students out there, and people that have scored well off the end of the test criteria. That is not the same as someone who scraped a C.

SHARP testing is currently flawed in many people's opinion. I would say it's the only system we've got, and counts for something, but hopefully it'll be improved so everyone's happier with it.

Jambo

Bluefish

16-09-10, 06:28 PM

you can see there is a different weave between the helmets and I imagine the HJC one will most likely be either a carbon-fibre covering or just a simple (cheap) design.

A lot of effort has gone into making the Arai one (you can see that in the weave pattern) and with most things in life more man hours to make means more cost

Plus it says ARAI on it and them stickers costafortune.

mikerj

17-09-10, 09:28 AM

I do take exception to the "They've all passed the same test so protect as well" argument. That's like saying "All these students got an A-C pass so they must all be as good". There are A* students out there, and people that have scored well off the end of the test criteria. That is not the same as someone who scraped a C.

Right, the ECE mark only means the helmet has met the minimum standard required to pass the test - but those standards are quite stringent.

DarrenSV650S

18-09-10, 07:45 PM

The bike to go with it :)

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/160000-all-carbon-fiber-and-titanium-ducati-999s-motorcycle/

Cymraeg_Atodeg

19-09-10, 10:58 AM

IIRC the Sharp test focuses on the front area just above the visor where as Arai argue that the most common points of impact are the front of the chin guard and the side of the helmet just above and behind the side-pods (or visor pivot point.)

Both of my crashes have ended up with me having the primary force of the crash bring transferred through the side of my helmets. These are the areas that Arai are supposedly poor at according to the SHARP test and yet I have suffered no head injuries. The secondary force (after some rolling) was then on the chin guard.

So, it is how the statistics of what part the helmet makes contact with the road during motorbike accidents that is in question as SHARP say it is above the visor that are most likely where as a few helmet manufacturers argue it is the side points above the ears...

There is also an argument about the construction of helmets and they way they work, i.e. a soft inside/hard outside that decelerates the head inside the helmet or soft outside that absorbs most of the energy of the impact.

SVMAT

02-01-11, 07:36 PM

Stuuk1

02-01-11, 08:53 PM

Have just bought a HJC FS-10 carbon for 200 and think its an awsome helmet. Helmets are all made to a decent standard and no manufacturer is trying to kill you. Buy one for your budget and needs. And as with everything we spend our money on. You pay big for big names.

I have the same helmet, I love ye style, weight and fit of it, but... It's very noisy and I get so much air buffeting in my lid right up against my face eventually leading to me struggling to keep my eyes open!

Do you get this at all?

Bibio

03-01-11, 05:23 PM

Arai have less interior padding around the ears to make it more comfortable and this is the reason they are failing the test. They have proved that they can pass the test purely by using one piece of bubble wrap in the ear cavity!!!

thats utter crap as my Bell M1 has even less padding around the ears than the Arai but still gets a sharp 5*.

it dont matter how much a helmet costs as long as it fits PROPERLY. Arai is just snobbery plain and simple 'i wear it coz its got the right badge' brigade.

there is a fairly new company called Scorpion helmets and they have built in 'bladder bags' to make sure that it fits properly and is half the price of Arai. Peterco has one and i've tried it on and they are amazing. built in flip down sun visor and more vents than you can shake a stick at. it even fits my shape of head which is verrrry unusual (why i wear Bell).

yes Arai make good helmets but so do a looooot of other people for less money.

allantheboss

04-01-11, 03:31 PM

Imagine dropping that bad boy!

The Idle Biker

17-01-11, 10:30 PM

mikerj

18-01-11, 08:38 AM

I used to work in parts of Asia and all the locals ride around without any helmets at all. Most of them end up dying of Malaria or river fever or something awful. They don't die from having a poor score crash helmet. The statistics are proof.

Sorry but that's a completely specious argument. The statistics, in this case, simply prove that you are at a greater chance of dying from malaria in parts of Asia than you are from a poor bike helmet. We don't don't tend to suffer a high incidence of Malaria or river fever in the UK, at least not fatal cases, so it's a pretty insignificant risk factor.

The Idle Biker

18-01-11, 03:44 PM

I know, I'm sorry too, I was being silly. I'm going to bow out of the discussion and let it resume it's natural direction. Safe riding y'all.

Luckypants

18-01-11, 04:08 PM

On the HJC vs Arai debate, I have had big crashes wearing both. The Arai protected my face as I slid on it down the road at 30+ mph. The HJC (a carbon HQ-1*) protected the back of my head as I came down from a great height and hit the deck at 40 odd mph. In other words both saved me from serious injury and worked very well. I now have a HJC because they fit me better than Arai (and I love the carbon bling :D)

I am of the camp that fit is the prime reason for buying a particular brand and would advise a new rider to go for a recognised brand that fits the best.

*TLW head butted the road signs wearing the same model lid and walked away.