9/11, Bishop Williamson, Pope Benedict...

[Milky Bar Kid]

Missed this yesterday Nic, i do know about this actually, i remember it well but a plane is still a plane, because it exploded there was less of it that actually hit one spot and it still caused a big crater.
So there is a lot of similarities as with any plane crash.
Stop trying to pick bones out of my post, my reference to lockerbie was just stating to GG that a mass of a plane impacting on a immoveable object, ie the ground, doesnt just disintergrate, it leaves a bloody big hole with lots of debris.
Why is everyone lately always taking posts the worst ****ing way?
Its starting to pi55 me off.

I suggest you read my posts a bit first next time before jumping down my throat and dont assume i know nothing about what im posting about, cos i do most of the time.

Firstly, I suggest you stop taking everything so personally. Secondly, I am "picking bones" because it is a discussion....it's what you do. If everyone agreed all the time the world would be rubbish and boring and stuff.

With reference to Lockerbie and the Pentagon, the best analogy I can think of describe my understanding of the massive differences is this:

If you look at what happened at the Pentagon, a plane flew directly into a wall, a bit like an arrow if you will, whereas, with Lockerbie, the plane exploded into over a million bits at 20,000 ft and was spread over a HUGE distance. The fuselage "thumped" onto the top of a housing estate, "thump" being the operative word here.

Take a swimming pool as an example. If you dive into a pool, and use the correct technique, making your body as arrow like as possible, then you will pierce through the water, with the rest of you following. If however, you "thump" into the water, you will belly flop...

I don't believe anyone is saying that there is no debris because the plane disintegrated, I think the point that is trying to be made is that a lot of the debris would have travelled inside.

At the end of the day, believe what you wish to believe. I'm not trying to change your mind.

[slark01]

Regarding pentagon airplane crash:
Photos Of Flt 77 Wreckage
Inside The Pentagon
Exclusive Photos & Story
From Sarah Roberts
spinner2882@yahoo.com
12-4-2

The recent Pentagon crash discussion on Rense.com has almost entirely focused on photos of plane debris on the lawn. Since most of the plane reportedly entered the building, we should also look for images of debris inside the building. Unfortunately, such images are very hard to come by since: (1) Much of the debris was burned and torn beyond recognition, (2) Most FEMA photos in the public domain were taken on 9/14/01, after much of the debris was cleared out of the building, (3) Most other photos remain in the private hands of investigators, rescue workers, and others who were inside the building. Many images are officially classified. The following article attempts to bring together all known images sent to me or in the public domain that show aircraft debris inside the Pentagon. The images were either found online or sent to me by recovery workers to be used with permission. First, we shall examine witness accounts of plane debris inside the Pentagon. These were given by recovery workers, firefighters, engineers, and Pentagon officials. Their statements help in interpreting the various photos taken inside the building. I. Witness Accounts of Wreckage Inside the Building Witnesses described small pieces of plane debris in the building. Because of the fire, much of the debris was burned beyond recognition. Some pieces bore lime or yellow primer paint characteristic of internal aircraft parts. Larger pieces included seats, cockpit circuitry, and a landing gear. These accounts were drawn from Ron Harvey's excellent compilation and from my own research. 1) "Most of the wreckage was in very small pieces and most was carried out in drywall buckets. Some was large enough to identify -- including the tail number on the aircraft. I don't think there's any doubt about what it was and who owned it." (From a letter by an employee of the Pentagon) http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/comments-general.html (http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/comments-general.html) 2) "DC Matthew" wrote about his work inside the Pentagon: "After about 15 minutes shoveling up chunks of carpet and brick, I found a piece of circuit board, and a chunk of the plane. When I say a chunk of it, I mean a piece that was about 3 oz of twisted aluminum. The biggest piece I've seen so far is about the size of a refrigerator." http://pub6.ezboard.com/foldmenonlinewhatdoyouthink.showPrevMessage?topicI D=957.topic (http://pub6.ezboard.com/foldmenonlinewhatdoyouthink.showPrevMessage?topicI D=957.topic) 3) While searching through wreckage inside the building, firefighters Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz "spotted an intact seat from the plane's cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached." Burkhammer also "spotted lime-green pieces from the interior of the plane" within the building. http://www.msnbc.com/news/635293.asp (http://www.msnbc.com/news/635293.asp) 4) CMSgt. John Monaccio wrote: "I was in room 1B461. The plane's inertia carried aircraft remains all the way through the building coming to rest on the outside walls of our offices. We discovered cockpit wreckage at our feet while attempting to rescue people from a Navy operations area." http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon-email_20020316.html (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon-email_20020316.html) 5) ARFF Captain Michael Defina said: "The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear." http://www.nfpa.org/NFPAJournal/OnlineExclusive/Exclusive_11_01_01/exclusive_11.01.01.asp (http://www.nfpa.org/NFPAJournal/OnlineExclusive/Exclusive_11_01_01/exclusive_11.01.01.asp) The Navy operations area, where the cockpit was discovered, was in C-ring near the punchout hole. Many witnesses also recalled seeing plane wreckage in A-E Drive next to the punchout hole. The following three items were mentioned: a piece of the nose fuselage or nose cone, a landing gear, and a tire tread. 6) Navy Lt. Commander David Tarantino described the A-E Drive punchout hole: "They found an area where fire surrounded a hole in a wall that was blown out. They heard cries from people who were trapped and saw a plane tire." http://www2.hawaii.edu/~julianr/lexisnexis/tarantino.txt (http://www2.hawaii.edu/%7Ejulianr/lexisnexis/tarantino.txt) 7) Lt. Kevin Schaeffer from the Navy Command Center recalled that "on a service road that circled the Pentagon between the B and C rings, a chunk of the 757's nose cone and front landing gear lay on the pavement a few feet away, resting against the B Ring wall." http://www.pilotonline.com/special/911/pentagon3.html (http://www.pilotonline.com/special/911/pentagon3.html) 8) "The nose of the plane just barely jutted out into A/E Drive (the street that runs around the inside of the building). It made a perfectly round, 5-foot hole in the wall. There was one set of landing gear (presumably from the nose) out in A/E Drive. But most of the plane's skin was in pieces not much bigger than a piece of notebook paper." (From a letter by an employee of the Pentagon) http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/comments-general.html (http://www.humanunderground.com/11september/comments-general.html) 9) "I thought it was a terrorist bomb. . . .But then I saw the landing gear. It was on the ground in the alley between the B and C rings. When I saw it there, not only did I realize an airplane had struck the Pentagon but it was clear that the plane had come through the E, D, and C buildings to get there." (Paul K. Carlton, Jr., U.S. Air Force surgeon general, quoted by Dean Murphy, "September 11: An Oral History," p. 216 10) Rep. Ted Tiahrt wrote: "In the C and B rings the plane had punched a hole you could a drive a truck around in, and I saw an airplane tire. It made it very real." http://wichita.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2002/09/09/story1.html (http://wichita.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2002/09/09/story1.html) 11) When LTC Victor Correa went back inside the Pentagon, "he found out what caused the horrific attack he survived earlier that morning; he saw the nose cone and the landing gear of the airliner." http://www.army.mil/usar/news/2002/09-11anniv/herotellsall.html (http://www.army.mil/usar/news/2002/09-11anniv/herotellsall.html) More witness accounts may be found on Ron Harvey's website: http://www.dragonslair.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/77/ffdd.html (http://www.dragonslair.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/77/ffdd.html) We shall now see some interesting images taken inside the Pentagon on 9/12 and 9/13 -- photos of some of the objects mentioned by these witnesses. II. Photos of Plane Wreckage Inside the Building Because of the destructive fire that raged inside the building, most photos show only charred heaps of scrap. A good place to look for plane wreckage is around structural columns which tore the plane into pieces as it entered. Many columns show shredded or wrecked pieces of metal wrapped around them or stacked beside them. The following photo (by MDW Engineer Co. Fort Belvoir (http://pws.hqbn.belvoir.army.mil/inside_pictures.htm) photographers) shows such a column in D-ring near column 3H: http://www.rense.com/general32/pillarwreckage.jpg Most of the heaped scrap is unrecognizable, but there are two pieces of metal bearing yellow-green primer which were not burned thoroughly. Charles Burkhammer similarly noted small lime-green pieces of aircraft interior. Resting next to another pillar is another section of lime-green material bearing clear rivet lines (photographed by FEMA (http://www.app1.fema.gov/diz01/e3168p.htm)'s Jocelyn Augustino): http://www.rense.com/general32/0901_163.jpg Resting up against a bowed column is a large chunk of burned metal. It is unclear whether this is a piece of the plane. Hanging from the ceiling is a sheet of aluminum: http://www.rense.com/general32/InteriorDamage5.jpg Another photo of this hanging sheet of aluminum shows a round circular metal part which does not appear to be normal building debris (photographed by VATF-1 workers): http://www.rense.com/general32/Shoring8.jpg This photo of engine remains was taken in either D or C-ring by VATF-1 workers. The large circular piece in the middle appears to be the diffusor section of the compressor, though this is not known for certain. Note the torn column nettings on the right. On the left is an obvious piece of yellow-primed aircraft fuselage bearing rivet holes and a twisted silver metal piece next to it. http://www.rense.com/general32/Damage9.jpg Now we are moving to the C-ring punchout hole. The following photo taken on 9/13 or 9/14 gives a unique view of the hole from the inside, unfortunately after most of the debris was hauled away: http://www.rense.com/general32/InteriorDamage3.jpg However the following photo shows a landing gear found inside C-ring near the punchout hole. Note how completely charred the rest of the debris was. http://www.rense.com/general32/landinggear002.jpg As other witnesses related, debris lying outside the C-ring punchout hole in A-E Drive included a chunk of nose fuselage or nose cone, a landing gear, and an aircraft tire tread.The following photo (by Fort Belvoir photographers) shows two pieces of fuselage debris (note the green primer) lying in front of the hole. Note a ring of 8 small holes on the larger piece. A similar ring of 8 holes may be found on a 757 nose (with an attaching piece), just below the cockpit windows -- but it is far from clear whether the configuration is a match. This larger piece of debris may be the fragment of "nose cone" referred to by Lt. Kevin Shaeffer and Victor Correa. http://www.rense.com/general32/fuselagefragment_MVC-027S.jpg In the heap of debris next to the hole lies an airliner wheel hub from one of the landing gears (as shown on TLC's "Pentagon Under Fire," aired 9/11/02): http://www.rense.com/general32/aedrive6.jpg Compare the following closeup of a 757 landing gear: http://www.rense.com/general32/pa_00239.jpg The following photo, which ironically enough graced the cover of T. Meyssan's "Pentagate" book, shows both the fuselage fragment and the wheel hub: http://www.rense.com/general32/trou1moyenne.jpg Finally, further down the debris heap, one can find the tire tread that belonged to the wheel hub. I've indicated it in the following video still recorded in A-E Drive: http://www.rense.com/general32/aedrive5.jpg Another image of the tire tread, published in Paris Match and posted on the web by AmigaPhil (http://amigaphil.planetinternet.be/PentagonCrash.html), shows its groove markings more clearly. I've compared it with a landing gear recovered at the WTC, and the grooves appear to match: http://www.rense.com/general32/pentagonplanetire.jpg III. Conclusion Despite the destructive fire that raged inside the impact area on 9/11, pieces of debris were visible on 9/13 and 9/14, and were photographed by recovery workers. These photos clearly show pieces of landing gears, a large turbofan engine, and fuselage. The evidence inside the building is consistent with the evidence of plane wreckage outside -- indicating that a commercial airliner flew into the Pentagon on September 11th.

[gruntygiggles]

Thanks for that post Slark, a few things there I hadn't seen before.

[The Basket]

An airplane is mainly a thin aluminum tube so not good at smashing into very solid things.

The wreckage of any aircraft depends on what it crashed into and how it crashed.

The four aircraft incidents....to my knowledge..are unique so there is no basis for comparisons.

An example is the crash that killed the Polish President..slow speed and would have hit the ground at a horizontal angle. Plenty of wreckage most of it recognizable.

The only real solid bits of a jetliner are its engines, landing gear and the bit where the fuselage meets the wings.

[flymo]

There is defiantly something a little fishy about the twin towers, two planes cant take down buildings like that and even if they did they wouldn’t fall in such a uniform fashion as they did.

As for the other building (building 7 I believe) it was hardly damaged but that fell down too?

Also on the cleanup operation the heat from the rubble was meant to last for days/ weeks after stopping the rescuers, well aviation fuel won’t keep burning for that long...

As for the pentagon thing.... Well do you really think a plane crashed into it? Really?

Jeez, here we go again.

This is the first time ever that buildings of this particular structure type had been hit by aircraft of this size along with being on fire fuelled by such a large amount of aviation fuel.

They were damaged, they burned and then they collapsed. There is the proof.

[SoulKiss]

He's probably filling in at the chip shop when Elvis is out with his muslim friends.

Well they were until TimWilkys mate got caught by the Taxman...

[metalmonkey]

9/11 was a terriable it effected many people, ones that we have never heard about, 7/7 was the same. It has hurt many people deeply it will never go away.

What I think even worse is what happened after 9/11, 7/7 and how our nations reacted, due to that reaction many more innocent people have been killed and for what? Look at what has happened, its not right.

What has happened can not be changed, though what happens in the hear and now can be changed one day hopefully for the better.

As for the actually casue well, you need to decided that for yourself but there was something strange things on which surrounds both of those events.

[gruntygiggles]

9/11 was a terriable it effected many people, ones that we have never heard about, 7/7 was the same. It has hurt many people deeply it will never go away.

What I think even worse is what happened after 9/11, 7/7 and how our nations reacted, due to that reaction many more innocent people have been killed and for what? Look at what has happened, its not right.

What has happened can not be changed, though what happens in the hear and now can be changed one day hopefully for the better.

As for the actually casue well, you need to decided that for yourself but there was something strange things on which surrounds both of those events.


Like what? The more that gets posted the more I look into it and the more I realise just how much I dislike the people that are publishing these conspiracy theories because, in short, they are lying to people. There are so so many examples of how they have used edited and cropped photographs to "prove" a point that is instantly disproved when the whole photo is seen and that's just a start. They seem to ignore the basic rules of the world as we know it. It's like the whole Pentagon/Lockerbie discussion.....there was never going to be much debris outside of the actual impact site at the Pentagon, unlike at Lockerbie where it covered 10 square miles, because they are so completely different. If you believe that they are the same and the planes should break up the same way, then go upstairs and jump out of a window...if you're right, maybe you'll end up flying, rather than hitting the ground with a thud according to the laws of physics.

I'm not picking here, just making a point. Where I say "you" it is not directed at anyone, just a term of phrase. I just think that it is wrong to falsely represent evidence in order to make people believe something that isn't true. Some people really do believe the lies and direct real anger and frustration at people and institutions that have done nothing (directly) wrong.

[Bri w]

I just think that it is wrong to falsely represent evidence in order to make people believe something that isn't true. Some people really do believe the lies and direct real anger and frustration at people and institutions that have done nothing (directly) wrong.

Its called "own agenda and ambitions."

People that have an ambition require an agenda for that ambition to come to fruition. Whether it is to sell a book, or to get the oil company you have a vested interest in more business. The evidence you withhold, or spin, will the determine the actions of others, who unknowingly will help you achieve your ambition.

morally wrong but with the best will in the world nothing will ever change that whilst people/govts/institutions/big business are motivated by greed.

[BanannaMan]

Like what? The more that gets posted the more I look into it and the more I realise just how much I dislike the people that are publishing these conspiracy theories because, in short, they are lying to people. There are so so many examples of how they have used edited and cropped photographs to "prove" a point that is instantly disproved when the whole photo is seen and that's just a start. They seem to ignore the basic rules of the world as we know it. It's like the whole Pentagon/Lockerbie discussion.....there was never going to be much debris outside of the actual impact site at the Pentagon, unlike at Lockerbie where it covered 10 square miles, because they are so completely different.




+1
And the point of my Elvis theory and vid posts.
Nearly anyone can manifacture hoax pics or vids to support their conspiricy theories.
While maybe not as exciting, the facts in these cases are pretty clear.





As for plane debris, the amount left depends on the conditions of the crash, angle of impact, speed, amount of fuel onboard, etc.
Two indentical aircraft crashed near where I live during WWII training excercises. One had a belly impact and left so much debris you can still go there and find small bits.
The other face planted into the top of a mountain. Resulting crash and explosion left only bits of landing gear and engines. (still there also) The aluminium bits burned up in the fire. (no bombs on board either plane)

Comparing Lockerbie to the Pentagon in terms of plane debris is comparing apples to oranges in the world of aircraft disasters.

[slark01]

If you know where to look
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070529002508/x-files/images/8/86/The_Truth_Is_Out_There_tagline.jpg






Ste.

[gruntygiggles]

Its called "own agenda and ambitions."

People that have an ambition require an agenda for that ambition to come to fruition. Whether it is to sell a book, or to get the oil company you have a vested interest in more business. The evidence you withhold, or spin, will the determine the actions of others, who unknowingly will help you achieve your ambition.

morally wrong but with the best will in the world nothing will ever change that whilst people/govts/institutions/big business are motivated by greed.

+1
And the point of my Elvis theory and vid posts.
Nearly anyone can manifacture hoax pics or vids to support their conspiricy theories.
While maybe not as exciting, the facts in these cases are pretty clear.





As for plane debris, the amount left depends on the conditions of the crash, angle of impact, speed, amount of fuel onboard, etc.
Two indentical aircraft crashed near where I live during WWII training excercises. One had a belly impact and left so much debris you can still go there and find small bits.
The other face planted into the top of a mountain. Resulting crash and explosion left only bits of landing gear and engines. (still there also) The aluminium bits burned up in the fire. (no bombs on board either plane)

Comparing Lockerbie to the Pentagon in terms of plane debris is comparing apples to oranges in the world of aircraft disasters.

If you know where to look
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070529002508/x-files/images/8/86/The_Truth_Is_Out_There_tagline.jpg






Ste.

Agree

agree

and agree again! :-)