View Full Version : Stomach churning moment
minimorecambe
21-09-10, 04:21 PM
Went up to the bridge today with Pops on his gsxr750 and me on the sv with Lucy on the back.
Came back a different way than normal.
All was going great, having a really good ride out.
All until a tight right hand bend.
Crap crap crap going too fast. It looked like I had 2 options - hedge or road (both with the bike and me and Lucy on the deck).
Luckily the bike somehow managed to get me round the corner with about a foot of road left next to the curb.
Have to say I took it quite easy all the way back after that as it shook me a bit.
Lucy didnt notice that we nearly decked it though.
My bike got a bloody good clean when we got home to say thanks!
Specialone
21-09-10, 04:31 PM
Thats more or less how i binned mine except i hit some crap in by the curb :(
If i would have just leant the bike over more quicker i would have made it no problem.
I wasnt very experienced at the time so i put it down to that.
minimorecambe
21-09-10, 06:12 PM
Thats what I am putting mine down too aswell.
We live and learn :)
It's best to take the positives out of this experience and move on, don't dwell on it. Might even be worth doing the same corner again to get over it if needed
Shellywoozle
21-09-10, 06:53 PM
Helen,
Sounds like you kept it under control well done !!! Glad it was a happy ending, something to learn from, I did the same narrowly missed a car was a left hander, I know how your anal hole can go from 5p to 50p without you having to even think about it lol
I was up there today :D beautiful day for it. I had to go a different way than normal with the road from Hornby to Melling being closed.
I'm only as fast as I know the road, if I'm on a road i've never been down before I tend to slow right down and take note of any nasty or blind bends and poor road surfaces. So next time you go down there there won't be any surprises lurking round the next bend. And once you've learned the road pretty well :smt047
Main thing is you saved it though, well held :thumbsup:
I know how your anal hole can go from 5p to 50p without you having to even think about it lol
That is a hell of a statement :lol:
Shellywoozle
21-09-10, 07:52 PM
That is a hell of a statement :lol:
Bet you've made yours do it though LOL ;)
For me to know and for you to pray you never find out ;)
Do you mean 50p sized or shaped? :shock:
minimorecambe
21-09-10, 08:47 PM
I was up there today :D beautiful day for it. I had to go a different way than normal with the road from Hornby to Melling being closed.
I'm only as fast as I know the road, if I'm on a road i've never been down before I tend to slow right down and take note of any nasty or blind bends and poor road surfaces. So next time you go down there there won't be any surprises lurking round the next bend. And once you've learned the road pretty well :smt047
Main thing is you saved it though, well held :thumbsup:
That is a hell of a statement :lol:
We went that way because Hornby is our usual route aswell.
I have taken that route many times but just completely misjudged my speed.
Have to say it was the bike that got us round the corner though :smt026
I have taken that route many times but just completely misjudged my speed
Have to say it was the bike that got us round the corner though :smt026
No excuse then :smt075
Its easily done, its all good learning though. You're too modest the bike only does what you tell it to :)
minimorecambe
21-09-10, 09:08 PM
No excuse then :smt075
I know :smt090 *sits in corner*
:smt056
My brother in law passed his test last year, borrowed my SV a couple of times and on our 1st rideout together put it through a hedge.
And I nearly crashed it big time after the 1st 20 seconds of being on it.
And we weren't carrying a pillion
Feel better? :)
minimorecambe
21-09-10, 09:30 PM
Yes I feel a bit better lol :) Wouldnt have minded so much if I was on my own.
Give me a shout next time you are up at the bridge for a brew if you like :)
beabert
21-09-10, 09:38 PM
Yes I feel a bit better lol :) Wouldnt have minded so much if I was on my own.
Give me a shout next time you are up at the bridge for a brew if you like :)
I agree :-) doesnt matter so much if you're on your own, I always ride very slowly with no leaning round corners with people on the back, its very slow progress, but having people on the back is no fun anyway.
Glad you both ok :-)
yorkie_chris
21-09-10, 09:47 PM
Heh, got to say I know those moments all too well, go kinda like:
corner coming up, apply brakes
hmmm still can't see the exit, corner tightening up, brake at full comfort level
brake as hard as possible, bang down gearbox, slide rear tyre, ar*e bites a hole in the seat
see god
decide you're dead either way so release brakes and countersteer as hard as you think the tyre will possibly cope with plus 20% for good measure. convince ar*e to bite the other side of the seat instead so as not to deck pegs
Go round bend sobbing
Holy sh*t I'm still alive!
Worst thing about corners like that is it completely stuffs your concentration and you inevitably find yourself in completely the wrong gear coming out. Or you realise you have the bike set up completely wrong for pillion/load so it starts running wide mid corner.
minimorecambe
21-09-10, 09:52 PM
Couldnt have put it better myself YC.
yorkie_chris
21-09-10, 09:55 PM
important thing is to have the aggression and determination to DO SOMETHING rather than looking at the hedge.
Fact is if you yark holy hell out of the brakes (progressively, don't lock the front) for as long as you dare then whack the thing into the corner you may lowside. But you will be going a sight slower than you were, and you will hit the wall/hedge at an angle rather than directly.
If you just freeze and hesitate then you're f***ed.
It does take a serious effort to force your eyes onto the bend and make yourself let go of the brakes and turn in. If you know this and expect it then you can do it and not panic.
minimorecambe
21-09-10, 09:59 PM
I have had a few "holy ****, dont look at the hedge - hello hedge"
Its like a big red button, dont look at the hedge but you cant help it. Brain kicks into gear and always manage to avert my eyes.
Yes I feel a bit better lol :smile: Wouldnt have minded so much if I was on my own.
Give me a shout next time you are up at the bridge for a brew if you like :smile:
Brew sounds good i'll let you know :)
corner coming up, apply brakes
hmmm still can't see the exit, corner tightening up, brake at full comfort level
brake as hard as possible, bang down gearbox, slide rear tyre, ar*e bites a hole in the seat
see god
decide you're dead either way so release brakes and countersteer as hard as you think the tyre will possibly cope with plus 20% for good measure. convince ar*e to bite the other side of the seat instead so as not to deck pegs
Go round bend sobbing
Holy sh*t I'm still alive!
Were you following me today? Cause that sounds a whole hell of a lot like what I did this afternoon!
Maybe not that bad but I'd just scythed through a right hander very nicely, feeling smug I gun it out of the corner completely forget the tight left hander coming up fast and completely overcook it. Manage to get it round and ****ed off I nail it lifting the front up only to ruin my line for the next bend........:toss:
timwilky
22-09-10, 06:59 AM
Far better to cross the Lune at Crook o Lune (Caton) and then go to the bridge via Arkholme. much faster.
Besides I don't like going through Hornby etc. Too much plodding going on that way
minimorecambe
22-09-10, 09:00 AM
There are 5 ways I can get up there so I tend to go different routes each time.
-Ralph-
22-09-10, 09:15 AM
Well, the bike got round, in most cases "I'm not going to make it" is all in your head and down to confidence! Well done for not panicking and standing it up on the brakes. :thumbsup: You avoided the normal error that afflicts newbies and experienced riders alike so get that instinct to brake drilled out of your head, and your not as much of a newbie as you might think you are.
Also just leave yourself some margin for error on corner approach speed, and if you haven't done so already learn what your "limit point" or vanishing point" is and how to read it.
I've had to have a good talk with myself this summer about excessive corner speed following a lowside and a highside in the last few years, both from going too fast round corners, and I'm now riding much slower.
Geodude
22-09-10, 09:29 AM
Holy s**t well done on keeping the rubber down. I did the same thing a while back at 60mph and due to inexperience grabbed a big handful of brake which sat the bike up mid corner and spat me in the air and somersaulted through a hedge ending in two broken ribs and torn shoulderblade muscle and i was on my bike test!!! so again well done you :)
Jayneflakes
22-09-10, 09:35 AM
Heh, got to say I know those moments all too well, go kinda like:
corner coming up, apply brakes
hmmm still can't see the exit, corner tightening up, brake at full comfort level
brake as hard as possible, bang down gearbox, slide rear tyre, ar*e bites a hole in the seat
see god
decide you're dead either way so release brakes and countersteer as hard as you think the tyre will possibly cope with plus 20% for good measure. convince ar*e to bite the other side of the seat instead so as not to deck pegs
Go round bend sobbing
Holy sh*t I'm still alive!
Worst thing about corners like that is it completely stuffs your concentration and you inevitably find yourself in completely the wrong gear coming out. Or you realise you have the bike set up completely wrong for pillion/load so it starts running wide mid corner.
That is beautiful, almost poetic. I think that you have missed your career as a children's author. Biting the hole in the seat had me chuckling like a loon on Nitrous oxide! :smt026
i was on my bike test!!! so again well done you :)
Wow, did you pass? :shock:
Geodude
22-09-10, 09:46 AM
Wow, did you pass? :shock:
Unfortunately no as bike was unrideable and i went to hospital and had to wait two months for ribs to heal enough to be able to ride and resit test. Passed second time though :D
how come in 25 posts, only one person has mentioned countersteering? :???:
So that's why they had men with red flags:lol:
I grabbed the brake and spent a week in hospital, so I can't talk:rolleyes:
tactcom7
22-09-10, 11:47 AM
Stu, because people do it without realising, you can't ride a bike without doing it. And perhaps it isn't taught on the test these days?
timwilky
22-09-10, 12:01 PM
Stu, don't use long words that get people going all technical. Simply say If it isn't going round, push down harder. Simples.http://www.twsoft.co.uk/sv/meercat1.gif
Stu, because people do it without realising, you can't ride a bike without doing it. And perhaps it isn't taught on the test these days?
I know it's definitely not taught on test.
I disagree that people do it without realising it - you can steer a bike by weight transference.
And if you don't know about it how can you do it more?
Agreed Tim - KISS no problem with the simple explanation of it.
how come in 25 posts, only one person has mentioned countersteering? :???:
not to sound newbish, and i've had bikes for several years (ok not the last 3 of them but before that) and i've never herd of countersteering.
-Ralph-
22-09-10, 12:26 PM
I grabbed the brake and spent a week in hospital, so I can't talk:rolleyes:
I don't think many riders can say that the haven't Ed. Because my cornering confidence is down at the moment, I can't say I'd trust myself not to do it now and I started road riding road when I was 16. It's all in the head and down to confidence, trust in yourself, and panic. Even an experienced rider can have his head in such a place that he does it as well, which is why at the moment until my confidence rebuilds, I am just not doing any fast corners. Before my last accident though, even though that wasn't a brake and stand up type accident, I could trust myself 100% not to do it.
how come in 25 posts, only one person has mentioned countersteering? :???:
I would just assume, rightly or wrongly, that the guy knows how to ride the bike.
If you are already in a bend and decide you need to tighten your line, I can't think of any other way of physically doing that than more countersteer, more lean and more throttle, so it almost goes without saying. But then maybe a newbie wouldn't realise that and stand up because they didn't know what else to do? Dunno.
It's usually your head that needs straightened or your forward observations that need improving, when it comes to screwing up corners though.
not to sound newbish, and i've had bikes for several years (ok not the last 3 of them but before that) and i've never herd of countersteering.
The term comes from the fact that you have to turn the bars the opposite way from the way you want to turn.
So in practice - push the inside bar away from you (or pull the outside bar towards you)
N.B. only works above a certain speed (15mph approx :smt102)
If you don't mind me asking, how have you been steering your motorbike for the past years?
yorkie_chris
22-09-10, 12:54 PM
I disagree that people do it without realising it - you can steer a bike by weight transference.
No you can't.
The term comes from the fact that you have to turn the bars the opposite way from the way you want to turn.
So in practice - push the inside bar away from you (or pull the outside bar towards you)
N.B. only works above a certain speed (15mph approx :smt102)
If you don't mind me asking, how have you been steering your motorbike for the past years?
little over 17st of body weight gets round a bend just nicely, have to admit, may be something i've done for years just never actually thought about it.
come to think of it i've found myself doing it through the following section of road:
link (http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.554888,-3.214982&spn=0.006231,0.016608&t=h&z=16)
follow the road down the map, it's a downhill fast left turn, followed by a right turn at the very bottom of the hill then upwards into another lefty. really need to build my confidence through it but everytime i ride those bends it feels like i'm gonna highside out at the bottom of the left bend as you make the transition into the right hander.
could be just the slightly sipllery dunlop tyres though, they handle fine in the dry but in the wet they dont feel so good round these parts, not designed for riding on wool i guess.
No you can't.
i beg to differ, i've ridden on ice sheets before and not dropped it (after learning that a lowside on ice hurts), simply by keeping the bike upright and dropping my weight over the bike, takes concentration not to drop it mind.
tactcom7
22-09-10, 12:58 PM
Has anyone else seen the vid, think it was by the CSS. They fitted a spare set of bars to the frame of a bike, so people could see that it made little if any difference transferring weight etc. The only REAL way to steer a bike is by the bars.
yorkie_chris
22-09-10, 01:14 PM
Has anyone else seen the vid, think it was by the CSS. They fitted a spare set of bars to the frame of a bike, so people could see that it made little if any difference transferring weight etc. The only REAL way to steer a bike is by the bars.
Yup.
They've also got a bike with the steering locked solid. It doesn't turn even with the guys full weight on one peg.
When you let go of the bars and move about... any turning is basically because of induced countersteer.
weight transfer is important, but it doesn't actually make you turn.
-Ralph-
22-09-10, 01:23 PM
i beg to differ, i've ridden on ice sheets before and not dropped it (after learning that a lowside on ice hurts), simply by keeping the bike upright and dropping my weight over the bike, takes concentration not to drop it mind.
When you transfer your weight, you tip the bars, that's what makes you turn. The tyre contact patch isn't doing anything different to a countersteer. Tipping your weight is just another way of generating countersteer.
-Ralph-
22-09-10, 01:27 PM
I know it's definitely not taught on test.
Nothing is taught on test, though it is not tested for by the DSA during the test.
Whether it's taught by riding instructors in the training that leads up to the test, is down to the individual school or instructor. Many do get students to practice countersteer and understand what it does to the bike.
Specialone
22-09-10, 04:29 PM
If you are already in a bend and decide you need to tighten your line, I can't think of any other way of physically doing that than more countersteer, more lean and more throttle, so it almost goes without saying. But then maybe a newbie wouldn't realise that and stand up because they didn't know what else to do? Dunno.
.
The term comes from the fact that you have to turn the bars the opposite way from the way you want to turn.
So in practice - push the inside bar away from you (or pull the outside bar towards you)
N.B. only works above a certain speed (15mph approx :smt102)
If you don't mind me asking, how have you been steering your motorbike for the past years?
Thought you countersteered to tip the bike in then just pushed down on inside bar to apply more lean, you cant push on opposite bar mid corner otherwise the bike would stand up (?)
The twist of the wrist dvd, explains countsteer as the way ive described so im confused now :(
yorkie_chris
22-09-10, 04:30 PM
Turn the bars towards the outside of the corner to lean more... who cares which side you are pulling or pushing on... it is the turning moment that causes bike to turn.
Specialone
22-09-10, 04:34 PM
Turn the bars towards the outside of the corner to lean more... who cares which side you are pulling or pushing on... it is the turning moment that causes bike to turn.
So if turning into a left hander and you need more lean you would turn to the right ?
Am i understanding you correctly?
martin15s
22-09-10, 04:36 PM
Helen,
Sounds like you kept it under control well done !!! Glad it was a happy ending, something to learn from, I did the same narrowly missed a car was a left hander, I know how your anal hole can go from 5p to 50p without you having to even think about it lol
in the pre decimal days we used to go "sixpence to half a crown" - still the same effect though!:D
yorkie_chris
22-09-10, 04:37 PM
So if turning into a left hander and you need more lean you would turn the bars to the right ?
Am i understanding you correctly?
yes
Specialone
22-09-10, 05:30 PM
Well that totally contradicts the way I understood it to be, I've watched that twist of the wrist a few times and my understanding of their advice is on a left hander they would push down not away the inside bar (left hand bar) which pushes the bike in effect closer to the road, I haven't conciously dont it any other way.
Maybe where I've been going wrong:confused:
martin15s
22-09-10, 05:46 PM
Many years ago was on a call on a Met police BMW R80 - it was an early model with an Avon fairing (NOT a good design) - at exactly 113mph the front end went light and developed rapidly into a full on tank slapper - it was on a 3 lane motorway and I could see all the traffic behind me slowing and holding back -my weaving took up all 3 lanes - I was quite a lightweight in those days and all I could do was lean forward as much as possible, two fingers very gently on the brake to get the nose down and as the speed dropped slightly eased a little on the throttle - my weaving took up all 3 lanes - gradually normal service was resumed at about 70mph and life went on - the phrase sixpence to half a crown (pre decimal 10p to 50p) described the feeling in my backside. The introduction of the BMW RT fairing improved matters somewhat...........:shock:
Bluepete
22-09-10, 05:54 PM
Have a read of this article (http://chrisplant.org/dont-panic.xml).
It makes good reading and a lot of sense.
Pete ;)
Specialone
22-09-10, 06:45 PM
Have a read of this article (http://chrisplant.org/dont-panic.xml).
It makes good reading and a lot of sense.
Pete ;)
Cheers Pete, that was quite interesting :)
Stonesie
22-09-10, 06:53 PM
Where I have been doing my training countersteering was explained to me before I even got off 125's and the instructors actively encourage its use:thumright:
The way I think of it is that there's an invisible line through the bike running from front to rear, It's centre of gravity, and the bike/rider pivots around it (roll).
Pushing the right hand bar will make the tyre move to the left below this line which rolls the bike to the right above the line and makes the bike go to the right.
I hope this makes sense to someone other than me, the instructors don't go into the mechanics of it...
minimorecambe
22-09-10, 08:05 PM
I do countersteer and have done since I started riding on my cbr125.
I was never taught / told about it when training but my Pops told me to try it and I have used it ever since, most times without realiing as it is just part of my riding now.
-Ralph-
22-09-10, 08:29 PM
Specialone, I just think your confusing terminology mate, you can't have been doing it wrong or you wouldn't be getting round corners at anything faster than running pace. Inside is the inside of the corner, not left or right. So push on the inside bar is correct, that's the left one if you're turning left and the right one if your turning right. If you want to make you bike turn quicker you need to use more force, and that's where pulling on the 'outside' bar comes in. With this pulling and pushing you are essentially turning the bars the wrong way, but at any speed that's the only way round a corner.
-Ralph-
22-09-10, 08:54 PM
Have a read of this article (http://chrisplant.org/dont-panic.xml).
It makes good reading and a lot of sense.
Pete ;)
Excellent post Pete, that's a really good article. Explains exactly what I was trying to say about panic.
The only thing I would add is for any newbies reading it, the bit at the end about practising trailing the front brake round roundabouts - DONT try it until you are first comfortable with dropping the bike into the turn and taking up that 'set' as the author calls it, and lapping the roundabout with neutral steering. The article kind of assumes your already comfortable with this and you may not be. Get really comfortable with doing lap after lap at a steady lean angle, before you start experimenting with the front brake. In other words, don't give yourself too many things to learn at once!
And take the authors advice and find a roundabout, don't practice trail braking into bends on the road until you are really comfortable with how the bike reacts when you let the brake back off again. Your corner speed should be correct before you tip in to the bend. If you trail brake, there is a mid corner transition to deal with between braking with front tyre loaded and forks compressed, to exiting the corner on the throttle with the rear tyre and rear shock under load, and it needs comparatively delicate bike control. That transition and shift of weight upsets your suspension mid-corner, and the SV is not great for upset suspension at the best of times.
If I'm distracted or tired, sometimes I trail brake into corners because I have been too lazy or haven't paid enough attention to setting up my corner speed before the bend, so I adjust it on the way in, but I do it because I know that for that corner at that speed I have bags of grip available and I'm not going to overload the front tyre by doing it. It is taking away a lot of your margin for error though and in the wrong place at the wrong time it could end in tears.
metalangel
23-09-10, 06:36 AM
Felt anxious just reading about it! Glad you're okay.
yorkie_chris
23-09-10, 08:14 AM
Well that totally contradicts the way I understood it to be, I've watched that twist of the wrist a few times and my understanding of their advice is on a left hander they would push down not away the inside bar (left hand bar) which pushes the bike in effect closer to the road, I haven't conciously dont it any other way.
Maybe where I've been going wrong:confused:
It doesn't totally contradict it, it's doing exactly the same thing.
When you push down on the inside bar you do it at an angle... this angle splits the force into 2 components.
One component of force is going parallel to the steering stem, one perpendicular to it. The one going parallel does nothing, the other one creates a turning moment of the bars. This turning moment is countersteer.
In simpler terms pushing down on the bar induces a countersteer.
This is kindergarden stuff if I'm honest. There's little point in going into grand detail explaining it... just go to a quiet road, gently turn the bars at 40mph and see what happens.
sloppy joe
23-09-10, 11:47 AM
This is kindergarden stuff if I'm honest. There's little point in going into grand detail explaining it... just go to a quiet road, gently turn the bars at 40mph and see what happens.
For those who like to see pictures (like me), this covers the (very) basics of counter steering, or positive steering, or whatever you want to call it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc
And if anyone feels an urge to get further into the details of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Or, as suggested, find a quiet road and see what happens.
My own take on the 'push down' advice is that it provides exactly the same effect (per YC and his explanation) as pushing away, but perhaps is more easily accepted by a student, rather than being told to steer the 'wrong' way. But that's just my opinion.
yorkie_chris
23-09-10, 11:56 AM
Risk of teaching that method is if you push directly down then it has zero effect. (no component of force turning bars)*
Also risks pushing the riders body UP** which has seriously bad effects on the chassis***. Better I think to teach moving the upper body down and into the corner and control steering into the corner by pulling on outside bar.
*This fits in with my general observation that so many methods of teaching are flawed as in trying to make things easy to learn they set up serious flaws in the understanding of the true situation that when the persons skills exceed that very basic level they are held back because of a lack of understanding set up from the very first principles they learn.
**Like this
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3793/irks1.jpg
***Like THIS
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8141/irks2.jpg
sloppy joe
23-09-10, 12:35 PM
Risk of teaching that method is if you push directly down then it has zero effect. (no component of force turning bars)*
Also risks pushing the riders body UP** which has seriously bad effects on the chassis***. Better I think to teach moving the upper body down and into the corner and control steering into the corner by pulling on outside bar.
*This fits in with my general observation that so many methods of teaching are flawed as in trying to make things easy to learn they set up serious flaws in the understanding of the true situation that when the persons skills exceed that very basic level they are held back because of a lack of understanding set up from the very first principles they learn.
Was not saying that it was a good method of teaching, just trying to figure out why it was put in those terms.
Agree with your points, liking the pics. Body vertical, bike horizontal, disaster ensues. Simples.
yorkie_chris
23-09-10, 01:23 PM
Another attitude I have found about the place when people talk body position "Oh, it's not important unless you're racing"
What the ferret felching F**K are those WAN*ERS on about?!
Tell you what for nowt, it's a sight better to fall off on a track and go make friends with some gravel than it is to fall off on the road and end up wearing a lamp post.
Wish they could tell me what changes laws of physics when you stick number on front?!
It really is surprising how many people don't know about the correct body positioning for a corner.
It really is surprising how many people don't know about the correct body positioning for a corner.
It's called learning, not everyone's a riding god from day one.
It's called learning, not everyone's a riding god from day one.
No need to sound so aggressive? I do realise that, but I was mearly saying that it's surprising.
yorkie_chris
23-09-10, 02:12 PM
It's called learning, not everyone's a riding god from day one.
Some of people I refer to should really know better!
One incident I remember... I was explaining countersteering to somebody who was very new... an "experienced rider" then told me "don't teach countersteering in the wet", I left it at that and didn't get chance to resume the "lesson" that weekend and the rider later fell off on a corner they should have easily got around.
Point taken, next time someone who should know better obviously doesn't I'm going to kick them in the nuts. Their wise council nearly killed someone. F*cking cheers...
So... how was said person supposed to take a corner in the wet?
yorkie_chris
23-09-10, 02:20 PM
Just plough through field... it's safer :lol:
So... how was said person supposed to take a corner in the wet?
Sounds like they were just scared ****less by the suggestion that everything changes because there's a bit of water on the road.
well done for keeping it together.
counter steer. push on right bar to go round a right hand bend, push on left bar to go round a left hand bend. simples. its only tiny movements of the bar.
to test this effect ride on a quiet straight road while going straight push slightly on the right bar, you will notice that the bike will start to want to drop to the right and go right, next push on the left bar, you will notice that the bike will start to want to drop to the left and go left.
the harder you ''''push''' the more the bike will tip in and the more the bike will turn in that direction.
if you dont like to push the bars (which is a natural effect) then pull in the opposite direction. pull left to go right pull right to go left.
sliding your body weight over to the right hand side of the bike will naturally make you pull left and push right to take a right hand bend. vice a versa for left bend.
yorkie_chris
23-09-10, 02:33 PM
I can't emphasise enough just how much track riding shortcuts all the sticky learning experiences you will have in a controlled and safe environment... as well as it generally being a right laugh to ride in an environment where going absolutely bollox out is positively encouraged and legal with no tractors to hit!
benji106
23-09-10, 02:37 PM
The best advice I got regarding cornering when I started riding was - look where you want to go. I have given myself problems on stupidly easy corners in the past when I have got myself fixated on a hedge instead of the exit. the rest comes naturally (to a degree)
My riding instructor was recommending I do a track day with her a month later whilst I was still doing my lessons!
I tried to explain countersteering to someone a few days ago, some people find the concept very difficult to grasp. The way I look at it is you need to lean a bike to take a corner, and there are only two ways this could ever happen:
1) The bike pivots on the tyre contact patch i.e. the top of the bike and rider moves toward the inside of the corner and the tyres stay on the original line.
2) The top of the bike and rider stay where they are and the tyre contact point moves toward the outside of the corner.
The first is almost impossible to achieve at normal speeds (i.e. much above jogging pace), even significant weight transfer will barely deflect a bike at speed. The second one is countersteering - you physically direct the lower half of the bike toward the outside of the corner which makes the bike lean in.
What many don't seem to grasp is that countersteering is only a transient manouver, it's only needed to tip the bike in, and then you steer the other way (the "correct" way for the corner) to hold the line. In practice the movements required on the bars at conservative road speeds are very small, so small that you don't consciously turn them but rather just apply a little pressure - so people who have never heard of countersteering don't believe they do it, even though they must do.
Just lean off like a monkey, seems to work for me so far ;) 'touch wood'
Agreed! i've been told I look like a chimp clambering all over the bike from behind. Works for me too and I'll know when it doesnt, i'll be touching the deck with my head :)
I always thought you had to lean off to get your weight distributed properly and corner fast. Then I saw my 1st Hailwood video :cool:
yorkie_chris
23-09-10, 05:03 PM
What many don't seem to grasp is that countersteering is only a transient manouver, it's only needed to tip the bike in,
some tyres have a tendancy to right themselves quite firmly and need continous countersteer to hold a line. Other than that spot on
some tyres have a tendancy to right themselves quite firmly and need continous countersteer to hold a line. Other than that spot on
That's true, trail and steering mass contribute to an "over-steering" effect, let go and the steering turns into the corner more, picking the bike up.
But, of course, the steering will be at a positive angle in the middle of a corner (i.e pointing left of center in a left turn, by however small a degree) which is, I think, what mikerj is talking about, although to say only for tipping in is a bit misleading. I'd say countersteering is for any adjustment of the lean angle, be it tipping in or standing back up.
It's also useful to understand that countersteering doesn't have to mean "steering in the opposite direction". If you're in a left hand corner which tightens up, you probably will not actually steer to the right of center to achieve the extra lean angle- a slight reduction of the positive steering angle to the left, which you already have applied, would be enough to roll the bike further to the left.
My riding instructor was recommending I do a track day with her a month later whilst I was still doing my lessons!
Good luck finding a trackday that will let you on without a licence
metalangel
24-09-10, 04:23 PM
Good way I found to understand it was just to very gently push on the left or right while riding in a straight line and you'll immediately feel the slight lean and change of direction.
Likewise what feels like an exagerrated move to the right then left for a lefthand turn may surprise you with how quickly you'll change direction.
The only time you'd need countersteering once you were turning would be to tighten the turn, amiright?
-Ralph-
24-09-10, 04:28 PM
My riding instructor was recommending I do a track day with her a month later whilst I was still doing my lessons!
Good luck finding a trackday that will let you on without a licence
Stu, are you on drugs this week? ;)
Originally Posted by reeder http://forums.sv650.org/images/ca_morpheus_gray/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=2375860#post2375860)
My riding instructor was recommending I do a track day with her a month later whilst I was still doing my lessons!
Stu, are you on drugs this week? ;)
No, can I have some of yours please? ;)
-Ralph-
24-09-10, 04:35 PM
No, can I have some of yours please? ;)
With pleasure :-)
http://imgs.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/mmagowan/2010/06/25/viagra.jpg
I think the instructor was giving him lessons, and suggested he did a track day a month later, after he had done his test. That's what would make sense anyway, an instructor who did track days would know that he needed his license.
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