Is all this about chains true?

[N8te rider]

Someone told me I need a new chain. it feels stiff in places, (when I turn the back wheel on a paddock stand). While riding it feels like the engine braking increases when I dont lube the chain regularly. Does it sound like my chain is buggered?

so, saw this website and got confused
http://www.quality-cycle.com/truth_about_motorcycle_chains.htm

[husky03]

get your bike up on the stand and give the chain a good soak in paraffin or chain cleaner( i use gunk engine degreaser) , let it soak into the links and work them loose, once its done wipe the chain dry then lube it well.if your links won't free up you'll need a new one

[N8te rider]

get your bike up on the stand and give the chain a good soak in paraffin or chain cleaner( i use gunk engine degreaser) , let it soak into the links and work them loose, once its done wipe the chain dry then lube it well.if your links won't free up you'll need a new one

Oooo! didnt think of that one. might try that :thumright:

[Cairo]

When you lube it, move each and every chain link repeatedly by hand to work the lube in and loosen any tight spots. Afterwards, if you haven't got to adjust your chain more often than 500 to a 1000 miles or so then I would say it's ok. Remember to lube it regularly and clean it once in a while. I wipe it with a cloth with brake cleaner soaked into it. Not as thorough as soaking it but it gets all the **** off the outside before it works into the links.

[Berlin]

Never trust an "Info" page where the writer doesn't know how to use "an"



"If your bike came with a (sic) O-Ring Chain, then I have to replace it with a (sic) O-Ring chain like my “Owner’s Manual” says??? Absolutely Not!!!!! That’s “B.S.”... "

[Specialone]

Dont forget to check condition of the sprockets as well, putting a new chain on old sprockets isnt good, assuming you was gonna do that of course :)
They are a good indicator to condition.

[yorkie_chris]

Never trust an "Info" page where the writer doesn't know how to use "an"



"If your bike came with a (sic) O-Ring Chain, then I have to replace it with a (sic) O-Ring chain like my “Owner’s Manual” says??? Absolutely Not!!!!! That’s “B.S.”... "

The page is titled "Facts you should no". If this bell-end can't get to grips with the use of the English language, what chances has he got of understanding a simple mechanical system? Just a silly c**t trying to sell X ring chains to people who've never ridden any mileage.

Tip: If someones chain looks like this, maybe you shouldn't be listening to them for chain lubing advice?
http://www.quality-cycle.com/The_Correct_Way_to_Lube_your_Chain_001.jpg

[orose]

It would be interesting to see how much of the reason behind harleys with belt or multi-track chain primary drives is fashion and how much is engineering... ditto the triumph thunderbird (belt) and rocket (shaft) final drives.

[yorkie_chris]

Multi chain primary drives are an engineering choice, they're the only thing that can fit when you're too lazy to build a unit construction engine like the proper engines have.

Belts are just fashion, no reason for them as they're a total c*ck to change and arguably less durable than a chain.

Shaft drives are a valid engineering choice as they're maintenance free, though much heavier than chain drive so unpopular on anything but tourers.

[widepants]

on average then ,how much more power would a shaft use compaired to a correctly adjusted and lubed chain,or is the difference between the two tiny

[yorkie_chris]

I don't think the power loss would be significant, but the weight increase is several kilos

[orose]

I was thinking in terms of the tensile strength claims - a litrebike might get away with a final drive chain for the amount of torque that it is capable of delivering, but it only makes half what a rocket applies at the crank (BMW 112Nm, R3 221Nm - presuming they're measured on the same scale)

[yorkie_chris]

More torque at the output shaft may need a bigger front sprocket to transfer the power while keeping chain tension in limits... but no reason it can't be done, or just using a heavier chain.

[N8te rider]

Did a lot of research last night. Came to this conclusion. Going to 1st clean and check each link in the chain, then re-lube. See how it feels. If no improvement then new chain and sprockets here we come.
From what I understand a reasonable/popular choice for commuting and track day use would be:

Chain - DID X-ring 525 VM/VMZ Rivit (not clip) maybe Gold (better or just bling)
Sprockets - Preferably Steel or hard anodised Aluminium. -1 front sprocket, standard rear

Does that sound right?

[yorkie_chris]

Personally I use tsubaki, sigma is good grade. DID equivalent also fine.
Yea rivet not clip

Makes no difference X ring or O ring.
Gold is just coating... makes no difference... looks tacky.

Use steel sprockets, JT ones preferably.

Stick to stock front sprocket size. Smaller front sprockets cause more chain wear. If you want lower gearing increase size of rear sprocket.

[jambo]

The manufacturer of the chain & sprockets is, to my mind less important than how you maintain them.

I've generally ordered a set off somewhere like B&C express (http://www.bandcexpress.co.uk/) and then looked after it either by using a scottoiler (http://www.scottoiler.com/) or just making sure that I add a little oil before I set off most days. If you use something like used motor oil / scottoil / chainsaw oil etc it will work round the whole chain as you drive provided you're not overly enthusiastic applying it it doesn't end up on the rear tyre.

Jambo

[N8te rider]

Stick to stock front sprocket size. Smaller front sprockets cause more chain wear. If you want lower gearing increase size of rear sprocket.

Yes, did read somewhere about chain wear on smaller sprocket. So increase rear by 2 or 3? and how many chain links will that increase by (or will the shop know that one)?

[embee]

on average then ,how much more power would a shaft use compaired to a correctly adjusted and lubed chain,or is the difference between the two tiny

Depends a bit on the layout, i.e. how many bevel sets you've got. A good gear-set will be 98% efficient or thereabouts, similar to a chain+sprockets set. Chains+sprockets get mighty hot when used in anger, that's a sign of the efficiency (or inefficiency), bevels have not only the tooth mesh inefficiency but also usually oil churning losses in final drive boxes.

The main advantage of chains is weight, cost, packaging size, and ability to change gearing. Advantage of shaft is durability and minimal maintenance, no alignment of wheel issues either but they're heavy (absolute and also unsprung weight) and expensive and a bit bulky. Horses for courses. Fully enclosed chain takes some beating as an engineering solution but scores low on street-cred.

As YC says re. multi-row chains, it's a packaging/strength/wear/speed decision. A lot of car engines traditionally used duplex camchains, more wear surfaces and shear planes so stronger and durable, but modern design/manufacturing/materials etc have developed much better lightweight chain designs and very few modern engines will use duplex camchains now. Toyota introduced a significant advance in lightweight camchain with my old Yaris engine about 10yrs ago (the 4cyl 1.0L one preceeding the newer 3cyl unit). Small+light is good, easier to package and control, always add lightness. A perfect example of the advantage is in piston crown height above the pin, not only does it allow lighter pistons but you can reduce the height of the whole cylinder block saving weight and packaging size.

Some Honda industrial engines use internal cambelts running in oil, not sure if any automotive applications have used that, probably no real advantage over a lightweight chain in auto engines.

Personally I don't like toothed belt final drives, issues with wear from debris ingress/tensioning etc.

[yorkie_chris]

try gearing commander website
depends how much adjustment you have each way. on naked SV going +3 teeth and +2 links puts you quite far back in range of adjusters.

You are customising, you sometimes have to measure. Shop might know or might not. Most of the time you can get away with 2 more teeth on stock chain length but not my fault if you don't ;)

[N8te rider]

Oh, and forgot to ask about mph. Current bike is 3 mph slower than what it says its doing. Would increasing rear sprocket make the readout worse? Would it mean getting a speedohealer?

[yorkie_chris]

Yeah that will make it overread more

[TazDaz]

Does 3mph indication difference really matter mate? ;)

[N8te rider]

Does 3mph indication difference really matter mate? ;)

3 doesn't as I know and compensate for speed cameras, I guess if its less thats better than being over. It would be a bit weird if I was doing 50mph in a 60 though. My sat nav's quite accurate, I could stick that on the bike to check it afterwards

[yorkie_chris]

It would be a percentage error, not fixed

[flymo]

Tip: If someones chain looks like this, maybe you shouldn't be listening to them for chain lubing advice?
http://www.quality-cycle.com/The_Correct_Way_to_Lube_your_Chain_001.jpg

lol, FFS that picture is just taking the pi$$

[yorkie_chris]

The correct way is to spray the chain rather than the tyre :)

[Nobbylad]

I hope he's using WD40 and not some proper chain lube!

[N8te rider]

That pic cracks me up. Its funny whats comes from interweb :-)

After 3 days of research, posts and telephone calls I am going with a AFAM 525 X-ring chain, Steel front and rear sprockets. Only decision I cant make is to go for:
-1 front +1 rear (this is the most popular) OR
standard front +2 rear

I'm told by "some shops" that 1st option is the most popular as the chain size stays the same and gives a very noticeable kick, option 2 however has less chain/sprocket wear, slightly less of a kick but will need more chain links (1 or 2). Any opinions on this?

[yorkie_chris]

Hahaha, you try add 1 more chain link and tell us how it goes :-P


P.S never listen to what is "most popular" as most owners of 600 sportsbikes know bugger all and do about 3 miles a year.

[N8te rider]

Er, when I say "kick" I mean quicker feel of acceleration :-)

[N8te rider]

Hahaha, you try add 1 more chain link and tell us how it goes :-P

:confused: shop guy said you can by any chain size/links

[yorkie_chris]

Ok... buy a 110 link one and shorten it to 109 links... video your response when you try and fit it :)

[punyXpress]

Doesn't the speedo come off the FRONT wheel ?
Ergo no difference in reading, whatever the gearing. :confused:

[N8te rider]

Ok... buy a 110 link one and shorten it to 109 links... video your response when you try and fit it :)

My R6 uses 114 links as standard. Im buying 116 if I go 2up on the rear. My local garage will fit it, but I'll ask if I can take a video cam

[yorkie_chris]

Only if you have shortened it to an odd number... otherwise the response will be fairly dull

[punyXpress]

[QUOTE=yorkie_chris;2384572]Hahaha, you try add 1 more chain link and tell us how it goes :-P

Used to be able to get ' cranked ' connector links which would give odd number - LONG before your time, Y-C ;)

[toby_smith]

I'm told by "some shops" that 1st option is the most popular as the chain size stays the same and gives a very noticeable kick, option 2 however has less chain/sprocket wear, slightly less of a kick but will need more chain links (1 or 2). Any opinions on this?

How the f**k are you expecting to fit a chain with an odd amount of links?

[toby_smith]

Ah, just read the rest of the thread, this ridiculousness has already been covered

[N8te rider]

Sorry if I'm slow, new to bike mods. -1 front +1 rear with standard size chain best option?

[beabert]

The page is titled "Facts you should no". If this bell-end can't get to grips with the use of the English language

LOL Strange comment, of course all mechanics are native english speakers.

Always read multiple sources, can always spot the duff info, even haynes **** up.

[yorkie_chris]

LOL Of course all mechanics are native english speakers.

Of course they are, I reserve the right to berate any colonial savages who insist on murdering the language!

It seems to me like common sense to give any advice on an important and safety related subject like this in concise and proper English (when targeted at an English speaking audience) so as to avoid confusion. If they can't master this simple detail, then perhaps they can't be trusted to give advice, or even hit the f*cking chain of their neglected piece of sh*t bike when aiming a can of chain lube at it from 2 inches distant!

[yorkie_chris]

Sorry if I'm slow, new to bike mods. -1 front +1 rear with standard size chain best option?

Like I say, use the stock front sprocket to avoid excess wear unless you do very few miles.

Add a few teeth on the rear if you want more drive in lower gears, order the chain +2 links and take them out if too long.

I'd say go to spanner man and let him sort it.

[Spanner Man]

on average then ,how much more power would a shaft use compaired to a correctly adjusted and lubed chain,or is the difference between the two tiny


If I remember correctly, a chain in perfect condition is somewhere around 95% efficient. Whereas a shaft drive will struggle to better 85% efficiency. Due to weight issues, & the fact theat the drive has to be turned through 1 or 2 planes. However a chain will rapidly lose efficiency due to wear, whereas a shaft will maintain it's efficiency. My old Diversion 900 has done around 170k & has cost £15 at most on oil changes for the bevel box. Shaft gets my vote:D

Personally I use tsubaki, sigma is good grade. DID equivalent also fine.
Yea rivet not clip

Makes no difference X ring or O ring.
Gold is just coating... makes no difference... looks tacky.

Use steel sprockets, JT ones preferably.

Stick to stock front sprocket size. Smaller front sprockets cause more chain wear. If you want lower gearing increase size of rear sprocket.


Totally agree with the above. Except I prefer the term PGF (Poncy glod finish) as opposed to tacky.

LOL Strange comment, of course all mechanics are native english speakers.

.


OI! Some of us went to Grammar school you know:D

Like I say, use the stock front sprocket to avoid excess wear unless you do very few miles.

Add a few teeth on the rear if you want more drive in lower gears, order the chain +2 links and take them out if too long.

I'd say go to spanner man and let him sort it.


Again I totally agree with the above:D



Cheers.

[N8te rider]

Like I say, use the stock front sprocket to avoid excess wear unless you do very few miles.

Add a few teeth on the rear if you want more drive in lower gears, order the chain +2 links and take them out if too long.

I'd say go to spanner man and let him sort it.

Cool. Thanks :thumright:

[embee]

If I remember correctly, a chain in perfect condition is somewhere around 95% efficient. Whereas a shaft drive will struggle to better 85% efficiency.

Most light applications these days (and all modern bikes that I've seen) use spiral bevel designs, where the 2 shaft axes intersect. These are typically around 98% per mesh. I suspect you're remembering Hypoid designs, where the 2 shaft axes do not intersect and results in additional sliding of the teeth and reduced efficiency, part way towards a worm/wheel arrangement, potentially down in the 85-90% range depending on the degree of offset (but they can transmit more torque for a given space, still often seen in heavy applications).

I like shafts for touring bikes, I've got an old BMW and a Deauville, the minimal maintenance issue is a godsend on a 2-3000 mile holiday trip.

[yorkie_chris]

What about the cumulative effect of 2 gear interfaces and a U joint?

For 1000 miles you don't need to do that much at a chain drive? Just a small bottle of oil for the scottoiler :)

[toby_smith]

I am down 1 sprocket on the front, and when I change the chain I recon I'll keep a -1 front and go up 1 at the back.

I know this increases chainwear but I'm not that fussed, if the chain needs replacing every year so be it!

Sprockets are cheap as chips so I plan on having a bit of an experiment and seeing what I like

[embee]

What about the cumulative effect of 2 gear interfaces and a U joint?


The joint losses will be negligible running close to straight, for 2 bevels at 98% each that'll end up around 96% overall. I don't think the efficiency will be a significant factor in choosing which arrangement to use. Several shafties are in-line arrangements anyway, BMW, Guzzi, Pan Euro, so only have one 90deg set. The efficiency of a bevel set isn't much different to a normal spur gear set so you also need to consider how many sets are in the entire driveline (crank to wheel).

[punyXpress]

Back in the day. had a bike where the drive was a duplex chain inside one side of the swinging arm,which pivoted on the same centre as the final drive shaft.
Adjustment was by an eccentric sprocket.
No dirt, no wear, no power either ( but then, precious little power loss.

[Sid Squid]

Back in the day. had a bike where the drive was a duplex chain inside one side of the swinging arm,which pivoted on the same centre as the final drive shaft.
Adjustment was by an eccentric sprocket.
No dirt, no wear, no power either ( but then, precious little power loss.
What bike was that? I think I must be misunderstanding what you're saying as I don't see how that could work. If the swingarm pivoted on the same axis as the output shaft then the sprockets must have zero radius for the chain also to run inside the swingarm. Clearly this is not what you mean so I is confused :confused:.

[benji106]

Not so, if the gearing is different then the front sprocket to rear wheel ratio is different, thus the bike travels a differing distance relative to sprocket rotation, so the speedo reading will be different.
Of course most speedos over-read a bit, were you to change the gearing in the appropriate direction the speedo may become more accurate.


Im confused, I thought that the speedo sensor was on the front wheel, so given the diameter of the front wheel is not changing how does the size/rotation of the sprocket affect it?

[yorkie_chris]

He's got an R6 not an SV650