Educashun...

[-Ralph-]

My wife has just told me her year 8 class (12-13 year old) couldn't put the months of the year in the correct order today.

According to them it goes April, June, July, but when asked where May was, they concluded and agreed, as a class, that it comes after March.

Are these people really going to be running the country when we all retire :confused:

[minimorecambe]

:shock: What had they been taking on break??!!

[Bibio]

yup, my youngest son gives me examples all the time about the other pupils at his school. he says 90% are dumb as feck.

[-Ralph-]

:shock: What had they been taking on break??!!

Nothing, it seems to be par for the course

[dizzyblonde]

:shock:!!!!!!

I shall ask my nine year old in the morning, see if he knows, maybe its just a fick class!

[-Ralph-]

She had one kid the other day that didn't know what his address was.

[Bibio]

next time ask your wife to ask the kids to tell her how many days are in each month. that should really mess their heads up.

[-Ralph-]

maybe its just a fick class!

I think Kettering is a bit of a fick town.

[DarrenSV650S]

It's spelt edumakashon

[embee]

I get the impression that expecting kids to learn any everyday factual stuff is frowned upon these days, even things like basic geography (towns in Britain for instance), times tables etc.

Sad.

[barwel1992]

She had one kid the other day that didn't know what his address was.

whats wrong with that ....... :lol:



;)

[Bibio]

whats wrong with that ....... :lol:



;)

tiz ok bar we all know your mum writes your address on your label tags.

[minimorecambe]

Bet they all know how to get every golden egg on Angry Birds though :p

[barwel1992]

tiz ok bar we all know your mum writes your address on your label tags.

:D i have left and right on my shoes as well, not that it helps :smt038

[Bibio]

supose its just the way the gov is wanting them. thick as feck, cant cook and cant manage money.

[dizzyblonde]

I get the impression that expecting kids to learn any everyday factual stuff is frowned upon these days, even things like basic geography (towns in Britain for instance), times tables etc.

Sad.

Not entirely true, my sons a walking encyclopaedia, knows all his times tables, can't spell for toffee though, and his handwritings atrocious!

surprised us last week, when we watching a falconry display at the zoo. He asked how fast a Harris Hawk flew, and the bloke who had the birds asked why, he said 'oh the Perigrine falcon flies at 200 mph, and I wondered if this one might be faster!

[Milky Bar Kid]

Where I work/live the kids are normally smarter than their parents....

[keith_d]

:D i have left and right on my shoes as well, not that it helps :smt038

You need to get left and right tattooed on your knees.

[Foey]

Are we not missing the point slightly here, it's all well & good saying the kids are thick but a child is a bit like a blank canvass & will only become as good as they are taught.
Surely the problem is that they are not being taught correctly by their teachers & parents.
I know when my son was at junior school some 16 years ago, i discovered that he was not being taught certain things which included his times tables, i went out & bought an exercise book & wrote out all the tables which he duly learned, he thaught it was great because other kids started coming to ask him how to work out mathematical problems they hadn't got a clue about.

[454697819]

Correct Foey,

Imho it starts at home, you cannot expect the education system to teach children from scratch as there is NO hope of that given how many children and all thier different problems,

I have whitnessed my 5 yr old cousin as a little genius start school and is now board because her mum did such a great job in the early years.

hey ho...

[kitkat]

Correct Foey,

Imho it starts at home, you cannot expect the education system to teach children from scratch as there is NO hope of that given how many children and all thier different problems,

I have whitnessed my 5 yr old cousin as a little genius start school and is now board because her mum did such a great job in the early years.

hey ho...

this is what is worrying me a bit. Libby is quite a bright wee thing, not 2 until xmas but she can recognise most letters of the alphabet and tell me what sound they make or tell me their name, does sign language and has started saying the word while signing. she knows all her colours and knows her shapes including oval, pentagon. But I worry that when she gets to school she will know too much and get bored. The infant school she will be going to had ofsted inspection last month and it is a good school with outstanding bits but "children start reception class with a well below average of knowledge and understanding". The english education system seems to take a bit to get going. In reception down here its like nursery, lots of learning thru play. In scotland you sit at a desk and learn to read and write. I like the idea of home schooling until maybe junior school age but worry about her not having pals, she is a quiet wee thing. My older kids treated school as a big social experience. dilema dilema

[speedplay]

I think Kettering is a bit of a fick town.

Beat me to it mate.
Most are thick as pigsh1t.

[Swin]

My wife and I put a lot of effort into our kids homework, I agree with Fooey, you can't blame the teachers completely for this, my youngest boy has a friend who is round ours by 4 every day wanting to play the X-box while Dan is still doing his reading, seeing as he wouldn't get home until at least 3.30pm there's no way he's done his homework - too many parents just want the kids out of the way and don't want to bother with them

[-Ralph-]

Are we not missing the point slightly here, it's all well & good saying the kids are thick but a child is a bit like a blank canvass & will only become as good as they are taught.
Surely the problem is that they are not being taught correctly by their teachers & parents.

Hence the title of the thread!

Correct Foey,

Imho it starts at home, you cannot expect the education system to teach children from scratch

I like the idea of home schooling until maybe junior school age but worry about her not having pals, she is a quiet wee thing. My older kids treated school as a big social experience. dilema dilema

I think a mix of the two is the way ahead, BUT though we can't expect the education system to teach everything, the education system is missing out a lot of stuff that it should be teaching, stuff that I find out various kids I come across just don't have a clue about, stuff which I specifically remember being taught in school, and it's mainly primary school stuff.

Parents are going to have to use home schooling to fill the gaps until it gets sorted out.

[-Ralph-]

I was taught to read at home, to count, some basic maths, how to behave, and basic practical life skills, but I wasn't taught my times tables at home, I was taught them at school with backup and practice from my parents at homework time. The traditional educational curriculum of English, Maths, Geography, History, etc should be led by the school.

I was learning about William the Conqueror at primary school, many teenagers now would look at you blankly and say "William the Who?". In primary school geography lessons we went out into the sports field and picked a leaf off each tree, then stuck it in our books, and learned what type of tree it had come from and what shape that tree and it's leaves were, most teenagers now wouldn't know an oak from a weeping willow. My fear is that I'm going to have to do a lot of this type of teaching at home, in order that my kid gets a complete education.

The kids in my wife's class are 12 and 13, if they can't put the months of the year in order, the combined system of parenting and schooling has failed them, they should be able to do this at 6 or 7 years old.

[Stingo]

A teenager turned up to join the RN and start his training...a couple of years ago. It soon became apparent that he was unable to tie shoe laces having only ever had shoes with velcro straps. Don't know where he is now...bless.

[timwilky]

Unfortunately, there is an underlying problem.

Education is not considered important by a huge undercurrent of kids who are now knocking out the current generation of school kids. These parents are poorly qualified, if they have jobs they are of low quality and generally they feel failed by the system.

You only have to look at some of the breakdown of qualifications by sex, by ethnic group etc and suddenly you see "middle class" and certain groups of Asian kids doing well. You see those considered marginalised performing badly. I have friends who teach in poor areas, they tell me they do their best. But if the parents are not supportive and in many cases obstructive. How the hell can they as teachers enthuse and enlighten a child and give them that thirst for knowledge.

[Dicky Ticker]

Okay it may be half a century since I was at school BUT I blame a lot on the teachers and the system.My daughter in law is a teacher and the crap she comes out with is unreal. Last night,helping my granddaughter with her homework I said something was "Wrong".
You do not say wrong apparently,the answer should be modified and then she goes into a speech about the three ways of correcting something.
If it is wrong it is wrong----plain English--help the kid get to the correct answer.
Even showing my granddaughter the old fashioned way of doing simple arithmetic was wrong,even although my granddaughter found it easier and quicker.
"That's not the way we want them to do it"

Surely getting the right answer is what you strive for and providing you can show how it is done that is what is required.

Being young with an intuitive mine seems to be going against the grain where as when I was at school it was encouraged as long as you could display the method used and the answer was correct. We were taught to think which under today's system doesn't seem accepted

[-Ralph-]

Unfortunately, there is an underlying problem.

Education is not considered important by a huge undercurrent of kids who are now knocking out the current generation of school kids. These parents are poorly qualified, if they have jobs they are of low quality and generally they feel failed by the system.

You only have to look at some of the breakdown of qualifications by sex, by ethnic group etc and suddenly you see "middle class" and certain groups of Asian kids doing well. You see those considered marginalised performing badly. I have friends who teach in poor areas, they tell me they do their best. But if the parents are not supportive and in many cases obstructive. How the hell can they as teachers enthuse and enlighten a child and give them that thirst for knowledge.

I'm not sure about the parents being "failed by the system", after all since when did the system owe anybody a living? I was taught that if you find yourself in a deep hole, then you find yourself a way of climbing out of it. My wife and I have a set of friends who are both working unskilled jobs, both at less than average salary, both found themselves out of work at some point in the past and got themselves back into a new job within a few months, live in a two up two down terrace in a poor area, and have two lovely daughters who share a bedroom, and spend a lot of time disciplining and educating them both. They work bloody hard to make the best of the position they are in, and although they find it hard, I can honestly say the kids don't suffer for it at all. They are lovely, bright, intelligent, courteous and well behaved girls. Your life is what you make of it.

Totally agree with what you say that the teachers can't do it alone though, a couple of examples from my wife's school


A 15 year old kid who won't come to detention, doesn't care if you phone his parents because he lives with his Grandmother, if she says boo to him, he beats her up.
Another kid that can't be put in after school detention, because that requires phoning the parents, in which case they beat him up
A kid that gets drunk on Vodka in the school toilets, smashes the bottle, then self harms with it. She lives with her older sister because the Dad is in prison and the mother is an alcoholic who lost her house and now lives on the streets
A kid who requires medication falling asleep in class, the school think the parents are overdosing her in order to keep to her quiet
A young boy always in school by 7:45. "Why are you always here so early, do your parents need to drop you off before work?", "No miss, my parents don't work, I just get up and leave the house early so that they can stay in bed"

[missyburd]

It surprised me when I was teaching 7-8 year olds in an afterschool Wildlife club how even the basic reading skills were missing. Some of the games we came up with involved matching words on a card to a description...until we realised most of them couldn't read the basic words....didn't we look stupid, had to think up something else to do quick on the spot! I was so shocked though, my first proper book was a dictionary at 4 (really not kidding, my mum still laughs about it now) and I was the first kid in my class allowed the privilege of "free reading" (where you could read any book in the library instead of the ones with 10 words in maximum :-P). For this reason i think home schooling is the way forward...or I might just become a teacher and secretly teach my kids more than whats on the crappy excuse for a syllabus these days.


he says 90% are dumb as feck.

Your son said that? :shock: I would definitely be having words with his English teacher....

;-)



surprised us last week, when we watching a falconry display at the zoo. He asked how fast a Harris Hawk flew, and the bloke who had the birds asked why, he said 'oh the Perigrine falcon flies at 200 mph, and I wondered if this one might be faster!

Great! Dilbert's first binoculars for his next birthday methinks! :-P

[dizzyblonde]

Correct Foey,

Imho it starts at home, you cannot expect the education system to teach children from scratch as there is NO hope of that given how many children and all thier different problems,

I have whitnessed my 5 yr old cousin as a little genius start school and is now board because her mum did such a great job in the early years.

hey ho...

The key to the best start in a childs education, is to do everything you can possibly do before they turn four, before school. A child absorbs everything early on, walking, talking, recognition etc. So simple things like cat, dog, 1-10, colours etc as they are learning to walk and talk gives them an advantage for the academics at school

Tiz why my son is a nerd:smt060
I did everything possible with him, as advised by his godfather, whose daughter never so much as saw a TV during her childhood, was amused by other things than playstations, and given a lot of music to listen to, radio, and newspapers. Goes a long way, she did exceptionally well at school. Unfortunately, these days kids needs playstations, wiis and xboxes or they pull a dicky fit. Dylan has them. but in moderation, and TV too, although at the moment hes turning into a playstation zombie cause Asda fixed his Star Wars game!

[Bluepete]

I gave up on caring about such things years ago at a house in Openshaw.

The woman had several young children in the house, including a baby (think - Catholics in The Meaning of Life) She was smoking like a chimney as were the other adults.

My partner on that day pointed out that smoking could harm the children and slow their brain development. (not her place to point it out, but she did anytway)

The mother's reply?

"Oh, I don't want them growing up clever or anything"

Since then, I've lost count of the number of drunk pregnant mothers I've dealt with, how many houses look like they are on fire with tobacco smoke, how many kids are out of school when they shouldn't be.

Education isn't a priority. Getting pregnant, getting a council house and getting handouts is. They KNOW the system will provide. So why work hard to keep kids in school and help them get jobs?

Mrs BP is a teacher. She is superb at her job, the kids love her and she strives to educate them. But parents don't pull their weight. Education starts at home. Many parents, even at her school (middle class area, high parent numbers in work, low truancy) don't think they have any place in their children's education.

As for not knowing the months of the year, their 'phones will tell them the date, so why learn it?

Like life in the UK now, it's someone else's problem/fault, why should they have to do it/learn it?

And I was having such a lovely morning...

Pete :(

[dizzyblonde]

this is what is worrying me a bit. Libby is quite a bright wee thing, not 2 until xmas but she can recognise most letters of the alphabet and tell me what sound they make or tell me their name, does sign language and has started saying the word while signing. she knows all her colours and knows her shapes including oval, pentagon. But I worry that when she gets to school she will know too much and get bored. The infant school she will be going to had ofsted inspection last month and it is a good school with outstanding bits but "children start reception class with a well below average of knowledge and understanding". The english education system seems to take a bit to get going. In reception down here its like nursery, lots of learning thru play. In scotland you sit at a desk and learn to read and write. I like the idea of home schooling until maybe junior school age but worry about her not having pals, she is a quiet wee thing. My older kids treated school as a big social experience. dilema dilema

This is the problem we had with Dylan, other kids weren't quite as bright, theres six of the same ability as him in his class, and the rest vary. I wouldn't worry as teachers guage it pretty quickly, and manage to not bore the socks off the higher end. Reception was all learning through play here too, but Mrs Melhuish is the best teacher he has ever had in that school, the further hes got, the more I've been disappointed, he doesn't struggle, but they struggle to keep him at the level he should be, not because hes not capable, but because of boredom, disruption from other kids and the fact that he sometimes is not allowed his full potential. As for reading, he doesn't read the school books anymore, they bore him, and don't inspire him enough. At six he was graded as 'reading age of a nine year old.

This isn't saying 'my sons amazing' etc, there are many kids that a extremely bright, that get let down by education, and other doofus kids that are disruptive, who take up all the time of the teacher because they can't bloody behave in school. That problem stems from parents who can't be ar$ed to discipline and educate at home.







Great! Dilbert's first binoculars for his next birthday methinks! :-P

LOL, he has a kids set now:cool:

[Owenski]

sort of on topic but may warrent another thread, speaking to the wife (still feels weird saying that) just last night on her return home from parents evening (shes a teacher - all be it of Art but still the theory is the same). It frustrates her and her work mates alike that those kids who do well(ish) in school, those who actually do the work and dont spend lessons chucking pens/rubbers around the class room are the ones whose parents turn up. All this seems to be is an evening of infalting the ego's of the parents who are active in the attention they provide their child and his/her education.

The kids who are the problem childs, the ones who have in the past made her cry, scream, consider murder etc lol are the ones whose parents never show up on parents evening, the ones whose planners are never signed and the ones who oddly enough as she points out only wear trainers instead of the shoes required for uniform.

On that basis I too sit on the side of the fence which blames the parents, if they activly encouraged their child to get educated then that child would learn and for it, they'd go further in life. One of her pupils called Dom has some sort of learning disability and his parents give him so much support its made Abi cry with happiness, this kid shows more determination and will to learn than kids in the same class who are "normal" but dont have that domestic support. She's confident that Dom will do well in life inspite of his disability which is great for him. If only the other 20+ kids in the class could have the same said about them.

[andrewsmith]

I think this is one that will run and run.

Kids are getting stupider IMHO, but there are kids like Dizzy's and my cousins that are bright as buttons.

I'm from a roughish area and live opposite the school and some of the kids still have dummies in their mouths age 5. But it does come down to the parents in most cases, as I was made to do homework and all that, as me old man did not want me turning into what a lot of the local kids are like.

[dizzyblonde]

I think that teachers should be more like this one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bradford-west-yorkshire-11661224

She was featured on local news this week, there was footage on how she teaches, really inspiring for kids. I can't find the clip though!

Wouldn't mind but these days class 4 have three teachers, I don't know their names, and don't know what they look like, is it really necessary for a primary class to have that many teachers, I don't think so.

[gruntygiggles]

this is what is worrying me a bit. Libby is quite a bright wee thing, not 2 until xmas but she can recognise most letters of the alphabet and tell me what sound they make or tell me their name, does sign language and has started saying the word while signing. she knows all her colours and knows her shapes including oval, pentagon. But I worry that when she gets to school she will know too much and get bored. The infant school she will be going to had ofsted inspection last month and it is a good school with outstanding bits but "children start reception class with a well below average of knowledge and understanding". The english education system seems to take a bit to get going. In reception down here its like nursery, lots of learning thru play. In scotland you sit at a desk and learn to read and write. I like the idea of home schooling until maybe junior school age but worry about her not having pals, she is a quiet wee thing. My older kids treated school as a big social experience. dilema dilema

I think you'll find the answer in your signature Hazel ;-)

In all seriousness though, If I could manage it and the local school was not up to scratch, I think I would definitely home school. It's a sad time when you have to consider it, but responsible parents will be thinking about their childrens futures and if it is you that can provide Libby with the best start, then "just do it". You can enrol in other social clubs and classes to help her socialise, but as you say, you wouldn't home school for all of her education...just the start of it.

I gave up on caring about such things years ago at a house in Openshaw.

The woman had several young children in the house, including a baby (think - Catholics in The Meaning of Life) She was smoking like a chimney as were the other adults.

My partner on that day pointed out that smoking could harm the children and slow their brain development. (not her place to point it out, but she did anytway)

The mother's reply?

"Oh, I don't want them growing up clever or anything"

Since then, I've lost count of the number of drunk pregnant mothers I've dealt with, how many houses look like they are on fire with tobacco smoke, how many kids are out of school when they shouldn't be.

Education isn't a priority. Getting pregnant, getting a council house and getting handouts is. They KNOW the system will provide. So why work hard to keep kids in school and help them get jobs?

Mrs BP is a teacher. She is superb at her job, the kids love her and she strives to educate them. But parents don't pull their weight. Education starts at home. Many parents, even at her school (middle class area, high parent numbers in work, low truancy) don't think they have any place in their children's education.

As for not knowing the months of the year, their 'phones will tell them the date, so why learn it?

Like life in the UK now, it's someone else's problem/fault, why should they have to do it/learn it?

And I was having such a lovely morning...

Pete :(

Totally agree with the sentiments of the above post Pete. I would have to wake up at 5.30, ride a bike a 4 mile round trip to sort my pony out, home, shower, school....from the age of 6 to 16 and would have to do the same round trip after school. I would be home by about 7pm, eat, shower and while everyone else watched TV, I was expected to sit at the table and do my homework. My mum or dad would check it and then I was free to do what I wanted. I was never forced to do it, never felt like I was being unfairly treated. I did it because I respected my parents and when they said I had to do something...I did it.

You learn first from your parents...if they don't teach you respect, it is nigh on impossible for anyone else to be able to teach a child anything.

[simesb]

Kids are getting stupider IMHO, but there are kids like Dizzy's and my cousins that are bright as buttons.

Kids are as stupid as they every were. The only thing a baby really knows is how to suckle, the rest comes from education (in the broadest sense of the word). My father was educated in the 40s & 50s and his mental arithmetic is amazing, as is his classical knowledge. In fact, I'd be hard pushed to find an area of his education I'd consider 'worse' than mine, but there are many, many areas where it is better.

Speaking to some teachers, it appears the trend in state education is towards understanding rather than facts (I don't know this to be true, just something I have been told).

[andrewsmith]

Kids are as stupid as they every were. The only thing a baby really knows is how to suckle, the rest comes from education (in the broadest sense of the word). My father was educated in the 40s & 50s and his mental arithmetic is amazing, as is his classical knowledge. In fact, I'd be hard pushed to find an area of his education I'd consider 'worse' than mine, but there are many, many areas where it is better.

Speaking to some teachers, it appears the trend in state education is towards understanding rather than facts (I don't know this to be true, just something I have been told).

I meant in the common occurrence of not being able to read at age 10 or write their name at 8. My old mans arithmetic is seriously better than mine, but I know of occurances at my old Uni of first years not knowing what 10 x10 to the power of 3.

I know what your implying and concede that is a fact of life!

[Jabba]

Last night,helping my granddaughter with her homework I said something was "Wrong".
You do not say wrong apparently,the answer should be modified and then she goes into a speech about the three ways of correcting something.

I once saw an undergrad write-up a chemistry lab-report where the result was clearly wrong (and fiddled/cooked as well!) as "correct within an order of magnitude" :lol:

[maviczap]

Well this is a nice warm up for my daughters parents evening! Especially as my wife isn't here to hold my hand!

So I've got to go and face it out with her teachers.

However despite having me as her father, she is a cleaver kid, not a genius, but ok. She gets picked to do special projects at school and the last time I went to hear how she was getting on, I heard some great things.

She doesn't like admitting she's clever, but looking through her maths book, her marks were good, even though its not her favourite subject.

I get the impression that my eldest think some of her classmates are well fick, certainly she's labelled some of them as chavs!

Yesterday I accompanied my youngest daughter and her class out on a field trip which was quite nice although blooming tiring. Luckily my group of 4 children were well behaved.

I do think its important to take an interest in you kids education

[Messie]

I tried and tried to keep out of this thread, but just can't help myself.

There are thousands of bright hardworking kids out there who learn a lot. they maybe don't learn the same stuff as you did, but who needs to know how to drive a horse and cart these days?

There are thousands of supportive caring parents out there who get involved in their kids' education, and even get involved in the whole school.

There are kids who struggle; there are parents who don't care. Always have been.

All of you who sem to know better, why aren't you in the classroom doing it, rather than sitting at a keyboard spouting it?

[Bri w]

Why do so many people generalise and have a pop at kids?

There's nowt wrong with the majority of kids. They are just as bright as xx yrs ago. Problems areas, and families still cause the same problems.

In certain areas of behaviour, and learning, I actually think kids are better than xx years ago. They can communicate better with adults if the adults give them a chance. And their analytical skills are often better because of the way they are taught than xx years ago when it was more about book learned skills.

C'mon, give em a break guys.

[Biker Biggles]

There have always been good and bad kids,teachers and parents.Probably the biggest difference now is the way the system is managed and controlled compared to twenty or more years ago.Just like the workplace education has been turned into a production line with every detail micro managed from above.The sole purpose is to produce kids who pass exams so the politicians can claim to be improving education.
Overall this may be a good thing with lots of compliant work fodder being produced,but the downside is if you dont quite fit in.If your face doesnt fit the production line as a student,teacher or parent you will be cast aside very quickly.Mavericks are not required in modern Britain.

[Dicky Ticker]

Can't quite see where a horse and cart comes into it but if you mean basics like reading writing and arithmetic------its a good place to start
Modern teaching methods seem to consist of computers,calculators and electronic gadgetry but when taken away although they may know how,but they seem to struggle due to the reliance placed on the gadgets.
How much work is actually submitted in hand writing that is legible,spelling that is correct and expressed in good English?.
All things that seem to have gone by the wayside in some cases but when I was at school it was the "Some cases" that the teachers brought up to standard. I genuinely believe the overall standard of teaching has slipped which reflects in the results which in themselves have been lowered to compensate for the inadequacy

[454697819]

I tried and tried to keep out of this thread, but just can't help myself.

There are thousands of bright hardworking kids out there who learn a lot. they maybe don't learn the same stuff as you did, but who needs to know how to drive a horse and cart these days?

There are thousands of supportive caring parents out there who get involved in their kids' education, and even get involved in the whole school.

There are kids who struggle; there are parents who don't care. Always have been.

All of you who sem to know better, why aren't you in the classroom doing it, rather than sitting at a keyboard spouting it?


coz my job pays more :santa:

[Dicky Ticker]

I do believe that teachers have a hard and difficult job in today's society

[Messie]

Can't quite see where a horse and cart comes into it but if you mean basics like reading writing and arithmetic------its a good place to start
Modern teaching methods seem to consist of computers,calculators and electronic gadgetry but when taken away although they may know how,but they seem to struggle due to the reliance placed on the gadgets.
How much work is actually submitted in hand writing that is legible,spelling that is correct and expressed in good English?.
All things that seem to have gone by the wayside in some cases but when I was at school it was the "Some cases" that the teachers brought up to standard. I genuinely believe the overall standard of teaching has slipped which reflects in the results which in themselves have been lowered to compensate for the inadequacy

I believe you are wrong on almost every point here you make. For example, there is nothing intrinsically better about being able to do mental arithmetic and being able to use a gadget that does it. Even English GCSE has a complsory hand written part of the assessment and Maths GCSE has a non-calculator paper. And as to standards - more people pass the driving test these days but I'm guessing no-one would say it's got easier. No it means people are working harder to pass and teaching is getting better.

coz my job pays more :santa:

You MAY be wrong there but I don't know your circumstances. However if it involves wearing a Santa hat that I'm guessing teaching pays more :)

[Messie]

Sorry - double post

[-Ralph-]

who take up all the time of the teacher because they can't bloody behave in school. That problem stems from parents who can't be ar$ed to discipline and educate at home.

I agree where the problem "stems from", but whilst a well behaved kid at home, will provide the grounding to be a well behave kid at school, they are different environments with different boundaries and rules. So kids that are badly behaved at school, may not be badly behaved in front of their own parents and vice versa.

My wife's biggest challenge as a new teacher is to figure out how to get those disruptive pupils to behave in class, the kid who hits his grandmother being one example, and he obviously has NO discipline at home. My wife teaches them languages, but every so often they have a 'life skills' class with their form tutor. My wife shadowed a class with this boy's form tutor and he sat good as gold and quiet as a mouse, and when his form tutor asks him to jump, he asks how high? He's a big bloke (PE teacher), with a big presence and a big voice, but in my wife's class the same kid is a nightmare.

It's like the supernanny programme says, if you change the carer, you change the kid.

My wife is struggling with it, and she is learning and making some progress, she has only been teaching a few months, but she recognises that it is her responsibility to control the behaviour of a pupil, whilst that pupil is in her classroom. If he then goes home and hits his grandmother, there is nothing she can do about that, but a kids bad behaviour at school definitely can't be blamed solely on the parents

they maybe don't learn the same stuff as you did, but who needs to know how to drive a horse and cart these days?

All of you who sem to know better, why aren't you in the classroom doing it, rather than sitting at a keyboard spouting it?

What are you getting riled about? The bias of opinion on the thread seems to tip towards blaming the parents, not the teachers.

The parents on this thread have genuine and serious concern about these issues. If "spouting" from behind a keyboard on a forum, and seeing the other parents point of view is interesting/helpful/whatever then why shouldn't they?

Have you ever moaned about a train being delayed or cancelled, if so why aren't you out there running a train company? Ever moaned about customer service in a shop, so why aren't you running a shop? Everyone has their own responsibilities in life, it's just that on this particular thread you feel yours is under scrutiny. That doesn't mean the thread has no right to exist.

Whilst you're the only teacher so far, you'll note that many of those on the thread are married to teachers, me, Blue Pete, Owenski, etc. My life is a complete f***g s**t at the moment as a result her being in "out there in the classroom doing it", she's having a very hard time at school and that comes home with her and is the only thing we talk about over dinner, and she's spending her every waking hour lesson planning, meaning that myself and my son are basically functioning like a single parent setup! He's getting upset over not getting the attention he's used to (3 years old), he's not sleeping properly, being very clingy with his mum,cries when she goes out the door in the morning. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

The parents on the thread obviously feel (and my wife with inside knowledge agrees!) that there are current significant holes in our education system.

Why do so many people generalise and have a pop at kids?

C'mon, give em a break guys.

There's a few off the cuff comments of "kids are fick", but I don't think anyone's seriously blaming the kids Bri.

[-Ralph-]

For example, there is nothing intrinsically better about being able to do mental arithmetic and being able to use a gadget that does it.

Seriously? I have read it more than once to see if I read it wrong. I don't think I have, but correct me if that's the case.

Mental arithmetic is a basic life skill, you don't carry a calculator around in your pocket. What happens when you are on holiday and you need to figure out how much something is costing you? How about adding up in a shop? You use mental arithmetic on an almost daily basis.

[Messie]

Whoa Ralph I'm not that cross. Of course this thread should exist. I'm not asking for it or any contributer to it to be censored. I'm just trying to give my point of view and to try to illustrate that education, IMO, is not in a dreadul state. I know you're wife (and others') are teachers and you can all contribute to the wider view as well (btw I'm really pleased to see she's got a job) and I know very well how hard a job it is particlarly when new to it. In fact that's part of the reason I'm defending the profession so much.
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about teaching and learning and I'd like people to see the other side sometimes. I'm sure you can see the frustration when someone who doesn't do it feels they can tell us who do, how we should be doing it better/right/properly
Peace xx

[Messie]

Seriously? I have read it more than once to see if I read it wrong. I don't think I have, but correct me if that's the case.

Mental arithmetic is a basic life skill, you don't carry a calculator around in your pocket. What happens when you are on holiday and you need to figure out how much something is costing you? How about adding up in a shop? You use mental arithmetic on an almost daily basis.


You read it right. You do NOT need to be ably to do mental arithmetic today. You need to know HOW addition/subtraction/percentages etc work in order to get a machine to do it for you, but everyone has a device available to them
I can't tighten a chain on a bike but I know how to get the job done

[-Ralph-]

You read it right. You do NOT need to be ably to do mental arithmetic today. You need to know HOW addition/subtraction/percentages etc work in order to get a machine to do it for you, but everyone has a device available to them
I can't tighten a chain on a bike but I know how to get the job done

I can't agree, I think it's a basic skill, and if the school my son goes to doesn't agree, that would worry me, and it's why so many people here are talking about home teaching. I've got 15 people coming for a BBQ, the blokes will have a burger and a sausage each, the women probably just a burger, how may sausages, burgers and rolls do I need to buy? A well educated kid shouldn't need to get a calculator out.

Sometimes it's just not practical. You've taken your car/bike abroad, it only shows MPH, the speed limit is 120KPH, you know there is 1.6 km in a mile. You don't need to be able to calculate that exactly, but you need to be able to figure out that it's about 75mph. Are you going to stop at the side of the road and get a calculator out each time the speed limit changes?

Also being trained to do these things regularly promotes and maintains the mental agility required for all other types of problem solving.

There's no point in labouring it though, we don't agree on it, hey ho.

A bike chain is not a good analogy BTW, you don't need to adjust it on a daily basis.

[Bibio]

the education system in this country right now is a joke. my wife and i were told to stop teaching our kids so much as we were 'potentially' teaching them wrong. one of the answers was 'you are teaching them out with the curriculum' WTF. the real answer was they were way to ahead of everybody and it was embarrassing for the other kids. our answer was 'thats your problem' 'we are not going to stop educating our kids out with the curriculum'. as it turns out they were board as feck at school and got bullied for being 'smart arzez', which the schools done nothing about until my youngest destroyed a class due to the built up aggression and frustration of teachers doing nothing about it and had to be moved school. turned out for the better, he is now enjoying his education more and come right out his shell. he still admits that there is not a lot they are teaching him that he doesn't already know.

[Biker Biggles]

Got to agree with Ralph.Mental arithmatic is a very important life skill and is a form of brain excersize.Similarly thinking on your feet and originality are important but are hard to quantify so dont fit in to the education remit.And who wants a bolshy original thinker who will question the given party line and be hard to manage in the school or workplace?
Do they still set Orwells 1984 in school these days?

[Dicky Ticker]

"Arithmatic" bad spelling or bad typing:D-------------me likes dis fred.
Watch, I will fall at the next hurdle.

[dirtydog]

next time ask your wife to ask the kids to tell her how many days are in each month. that should really mess their heads up.

Hell I still struggle with that! I had times tables etc drummed into me constantly at school but I am rubbish at them and always have been!

[Dicky Ticker]

Were they the things with
Dah de dah dah de dah,I can remember the tune,just forget the words:D

[Biker Biggles]

"Arithmatic" bad spelling or bad typing:D-------------me likes dis fred.
Watch, I will fall at the next hurdle.

It just shows I wasnt taught to use electronic aids like calculatore;)s and spellchequers:D

[dizzyblonde]

Mental arithmetic.

Although a calculator is needed once at senior school, the basis for maths should be done the hard way, so it is ingrained for ever and a day. No good being able to add up and subtract etc when you are stood in a shop buying items, if all you can do is put it into your phone to get an answer for example.

One thing I do like with my sons education is that simple mathematics is quite focused on. I like him doing his homework using his fingers and thumbs, or doing long subtractions or multiplication with the little cogs going between his ears.....not seen it in many a year, and its refreshing.

BTW yesterday he learnt about prisms, and today about vikings, he instantly remembered the scientific subject, but not the history, hes either not overly keen on history, or the lesson wasn't as engaging.

[-Ralph-]

First thing I do with a result on a calculator screen is to do a quick mental estimation to see if I pretty much agree with what's on the screen. The wrong button or missing a button can completely lead you up the garden path.

I don't know how many employers would accept an employee that can't do basic mental arithmetic for a basic office job, and for that reason alone it needs to be taught in schools, and calculators shouldn't be allowed in exams and tests unless there is a need for the functions of a scientific calculator.

[simesb]

First thing I do with a result on a calculator screen is to do a quick mental estimation to see if I pretty much agree with what's on the screen. The wrong button or missing a button can completely lead you up the garden path.

Absolutely. And it is not just arithmetic where it is important in life to mentally predict the rough outcome to check that the actual outcome is correct.

[timwilky]

I don't know about calculators. Whilst I was in further and higher education they were essential. But I had been to a carp school and found that my mathematics knowledge was not all it should have been and catch up was urgently needed. What a calculator allows you to do is more in less time. You still need to know base principles.

For instance to find any root, the obvious solution is to take the logarithm of the number and divided it by the root index and then take the inverse log. Simples but in order to know that quick and easy method. You need to know what a log is in the first place.

Again at school they never taught us basic calculus, it was assumed in my further education you already new simple differentiation and integration techniques.

But what really got me in higher education when I had to do materials engineering. School had never taught me basic chemistry. Ionic, covalent bonds etc. you might as well have been talking different language. I had opted to do physics. most of which was a complete waste of time. A little combined sciences course would have done me far more good. And to drop geography for additional maths.

Now to upset people. I personally would have French/German/Spanish taught from age 5. I work for a multinational (French) company. I spend a lot of time in Paris and Baden, it is embarrassing the way the rest of the world speaks English. I have had 6 year old kids in Sumatra say hello to me in English

[-Ralph-]

My 3 year old is forming sentences in French quite nicely

oooh, sorry, had to get that wee boast in there ;-)

[timwilky]

Yes, but he has an advantage.

[dizzyblonde]

Now to upset people. I personally would have French/German/Spanish taught from age 5. I work for a multinational (French) company. I spend a lot of time in Paris and Baden, it is embarrassing the way the rest of the world speaks English. I have had 6 year old kids in Sumatra say hello to me in English

+1, in European countries they teach English from this age, so why can't we do it with a popular European language?

My 3 year old is forming sentences in French quite nicely

oooh, sorry, had to get that wee boast in there ;-)

As Tim says, distinct advantage there :p Saying that I wouldn't mind if babba here could form Greek sentences by three years, be a bit much if his dads mother tongue wasn't passed on!

[Bibio]

Hell I still struggle with that! I had times tables etc drummed into me constantly at school but I am rubbish at them and always have been!

days in each month = make a fist with one of your hands and count the knuckles (31 days) and dips between knuckles (30 except feb).

goes like this: start at pinky
first = knuckle = Jan = 31 days
second = dip betwen knuckle = Feb = 28 days
third = knuckle = Mar = 31 days
fourth = dip between knuckle = Apr = 30 days

so on and so on till you run out of your 4 knuckles then start over again at your pinky till you finish at Dec.

conclusion there are 2 consecutive months with 31 days. July and August.

[Messie]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend.
Of course basic arithmetical skills are important. I didn't claim otherwise. As I said, knowing what addition/subtraction/percentages mean is essential, even if a mchine does the calculations for you. Abacusses have been around a lot longer than calculators!
Ralph - I really didn't mean to rile you. I thought I was standing up for teachers, who, by and large, try their very damndest to do a good job, as your wife will testify. But maybe chain tightening is as day to day relevant as converting MPH to KPH on the continent?

To try to clarify - I get bothered by two things
1. people making sweeping and often stereoyped generalisations, based on one or two examples, and concluding that all today's kids are thick, uneducated and poorly taught. This does no favours to todays geneation nor to our teachers.
2. I wouldn't dream of telling a mechanic how to fix or service my bike or car, a builder how to plaster my walls or a lawyer to conveyance my house sale. But it seems that, if you have children, you automatically become an expert on how to educate kids. That makes no more sense to me than just because I can ride a bike I automatically know how to fix/service a bike.

I do genuinely believe that parents have a huge contibution to make to their and our children's education. I wish many more would get involved - not just in homework, but in the school community, becoming a parent reader, Governor or general helper

Again, peace and love

[missyburd]

You do NOT need to be ably to do mental arithmetic today.done



I don't know how many employers would accept an employee that can't do basic mental arithmetic for a basic office job

I work part time in a shop that doesn't even have an electronic cash register, needless to say my mental arithmetic isn't bad :-D

I think one of the main problems these days is children relying on electronic gadgets to get stuff done for them, a calculator, a spellchecker on the computer, typing out stuff instead of improving your handwriting. How many adults still have very poor handwriting or can't spell? Just because they can get away with not learning/practicing! Laziness, sums up a lot of the human race really :-)

[TazDaz]

I think one of the main problems these days is children relying on electronic gadgets to get stuff done for them, a calculator, a spellchecker on the computer, typing out stuff instead of improving your handwriting. How many adults still have very poor handwriting or can't spell? Just because they can get away with not learning/practicing! Laziness, sums up a lot of the human race really :-)

Handwriting isn't needed now though...I bang out technical reports day in, day out, but admittedly my handwriting is shockingly bad simply because I don't use it.

A calculator is only as good as the user! :)

PS. My forum 'writing' is a fair bit different to my work 'writing', in that my work stuff makes sense, or is it the other way around?!?! ;)

[Bibio]

How many adults still have very poor handwriting or can't spell?

me. its like a foreign language and cant spell worth shiz. i love spell checkers. but my brain don't work the same as others, my excuse and i'm sticking to it.

[appollo1]

me. its like a foreign language and cant spell worth shiz. i love spell checkers. but my brain don't work the same as others, my excuse and i'm sticking to it.

old age!! ;)


I can't stand text speak which a lot of youths use.

[Bibio]

I can't stand text speak which a lot of youths use.

heheheheee wish you hadn't told me that. now i know how to wind rick up.

[Teejayexc]

I work part time in a shop that doesn't even have an electronic cash register, needless to say my mental arithmetic isn't bad :-D

I think one of the main problems these days is children relying on electronic gadgets to get stuff done for them, a calculator, a spellchecker on the computer, typing out stuff instead of improving your handwriting. How many adults still have very poor handwriting or can't spell? Just because they can get away with not learning/practicing! Laziness, sums up a lot of the human race really :-)


Quite ; http://www.future-perfect.co.uk/grammartips/grammar-tip-practise-practice.asp

:rolleyes:

[-Ralph-]

Ralph - I really didn't mean to rile you

Don't worry about it Messie, I let rip with a keyboard a little too easily on occasion, I wasn't particularly riled, just that your use of language "seem to know better", "spouting behind a keyboard", etc seemed as if you had got very riled by it and typed a reaction, and I couldn't understand why as people weren't particularly teacher bashing, more parent bashing.

You have to admit that nobody knows a child better than the parents, so they should have an input and are entitled to a strong opinion, into a child's education. After all what do you leave behind when you die, other than your children? Unless your name is Einstein or Picasso, it's the only lasting thing you produce in your lifetime. Family is the most important thing in my life anyway, at work all I produce is more money for other people. Debating something with your child's teacher is not quite like telling a mechanic how to service a bike. I will never hesitate to stick my oar in if I think something is happening that is not right for my son.

[yorkie_chris]

supose its just the way the gov is wanting them. thick as feck, cant cook and cant manage money.

How are they going to be responsible citizens and spend themselves out of debt if they know how to manage money? :-P

For example, there is nothing intrinsically better about being able to do mental arithmetic

Maths GCSE has a non-calculator paper.

It's intrinsically better because nobody who can do mental arithmetic would possibly want to change places with someone who can't.

More about the problem solving and analytical abilities than anything else IMO... you can't teach analysis by "look at the sums and pop it into the little box". Because when faced with something you don't know how to type into the little box you fall flat on your face.

First thing I do with a result on a calculator screen is to do a quick mental estimation to see if I pretty much agree with what's on the screen. The wrong button or missing a button can completely lead you up the garden path.

In my degree studies that was always everyone's #1 c*ckup... the answer being out to some power of 10 because you missed a decimal point!



Problems with the education system... many aspects, mainly targets about results, which are things of paper and are filed away and forgotten long before the kids need the skills they don't have. People seem to have forgotten that "average" means there has to be some people below it too...


I consider myself as having had a good education. I went to a notionally Catholic secondary school with a fair mix of half decent folk and scratters from the local council estates. Scholastically, not brilliant, too many scumbags, classes too big etc. We had some brilliant teachers and some useless ones, but because the standards there were generally below what I saw as being worth bothering with, I didn't excel. I got all B's with a smattering of A*s and As in the GCSEs with doing the absolute minimum in everything and it was p*ss easy.
If I had gone to the grammar school, I'm sure my "education" would have been much better, but I would have been just another geeky kid. I would have had no chance of surviving my first job (labourer on site), or the second one in the pub. So, it balances out I suppose.

My recommendation for it, leave all this hippy crap at the door, separate the kids who WANT to learn, make sure there are no more than 20 to a class and make it so they can thrive. Make it so they don't need to do that much at home. The asda-fodder who can't be *rsed will end up the same whether they are coddled or left feral, so not worth the effort.

Oh, and don't give rewards to scum. It's like training a dog, if you reward bad behaviour it will do it again...

[fizzwheel]

I don't know how many employers would accept an employee that can't do basic mental arithmetic for a basic office job

My basic mental arthimetic is poor. I cannot add / subtract numbers in my head very well at all, I also struggle with multiplication to. Yet stick me down with some allegra / equations or something complicated and I work my way through it.

I cant add up in my head, I'll use a calculator because if i have to add up manually it'll take me ages as I never trust my results. Calculator for me is a time saving device, failing that the figures go into excel and I'll do what I need to do in that.

[andrewsmith]

Oh, and don't give rewards to scum. It's like training a dog, if you reward bad behaviour it will do it again...

You sure you didn't go school in Newcastle, that sounds v familar the scrots were rewarded to behave (when the school was inspected) and everyone else got F.A

[missyburd]

Quite ; http://www.future-perfect.co.uk/grammartips/grammar-tip-practise-practice.asp

:rolleyes:

Wile I'm trooly obliged too you for expecting me two have ritten a purfect post ;-) I'll happily admit I've never used the spelling of "practise", which you could ironically say was the fault of my education... And technically speaking I've just used the American version of the word, I really do apologize if I have offended you...OOPS there I go again! :D

[dizzyblonde]

My wife has just told me her year 8 class (12-13 year old) couldn't put the months of the year in the correct order today.

According to them it goes April, June, July, but when asked where May was, they concluded and agreed, as a class, that it comes after March.

Are these people really going to be running the country when we all retire :confused:

:shock:!!!!!!

I shall ask my nine year old in the morning, see if he knows, maybe its just a fick class!

SO I asked him, whilst he was doing something in the kitchen.
What are the months of the year Dilbert?

''January-September, November, December''.

''Marvellous mate, now when were you born?''

''October''

''So wheres that go then?''

''Oh yeah, Between September and November, Sept, Oct, Nov''

Not so much thick, but as he asked completely randomly I'll let him off!

[Bibio]

heheheheeee. deliberately taking the peee. good lad.