Have you bought from Midlands Superbikes recently?

[-Ralph-]

An update on this situation guys....

http://www.harboroughmail.co.uk/news/local-news/police_probe_into_motorbike_firm_1_1610921

Messy!

Wow, selling customers bikes then hiding the cash and telling the customer the bike was still in the showroom.

I nearly bought a bike from Midland Superbikes (MS) a few weeks before they collapsed and would have done had the bike been an ABS model. Glad I didn't.

Anyone who has bought a bike from MS needs to check if they actually own the bike. If it wasn't MS's bike to sell, but a customer, then they didn't have legal title to sell it, they were acting as an agent on behalf of the owner and they should be telling the buyer this, and be contacting the owner to inform and seek authorisation from them on any negotiations that take place. If the owner has not agreed to the sale, and the money never reached them, has the bike legally been sold, and does the new owner legally own it?

I guess the purpose of this thread, assuming the allegations that bikes have been sold without the owners knowledge is true, is to see if anyone knows where the buyers of those bikes now stand, with regards to legal ownership?

[Biker Biggles]

If its true is it any different to the scrotes who chuck our bikes in vans and nick them that way?
Strightforward theft and fraud on the face of it?

[davepreston]

recieving of stolen property
but nothing would come of it with the situation being know im sure to plod
but bike would return to original owner after a bit of legal wrangleing unless v5 has been signed over to the shop then original owner would have to try to claw back some money fron them and not get there bike back/ eg buyer would keep

[-Ralph-]

V5 doesn't prove ownership though does it? I thought the only thing that can do that is proof of money changing hands and/or a receipt/invoice?

[davepreston]

v5 shows registered owner and the shop would have to prove they owned it to sell to 3rd party or didnt ,so any brief worth there salt would seconda the shop files

[andrewsmith]

Saw a bit in the MCN this week about this and there has meant to be a lot or rubber checks that appeared on the 16th oct and bikes sold on 2 months prior to the checks being issued

If the cops are investigating fraud, everyone waiting for their money or bikes will have to join the que

[embee]

v5 shows registered owner and the shop would have to prove they owned it to sell to 3rd party or didnt ,so any brief worth there salt would seconda the shop files

V5 shows registered KEEPER, not OWNER.

[TamSV]

You might be surprised how this could turn out.

One of my customers was involved in what looks like identical circumstances earlier this year. He gave his car to a garage on sale or return. He retained the V5 in his possession.

Was fobbed off for several weeks by the garage saying they had someone interested but they wanted to test drive again, then they wanted their wife to look at the car etc.

Garage went out of business and it turned out the vehicle had been sold two months previously. The new owner had a V5 issued by DVLA in his name and had bought the vehicle on finance. As he bought the vehicle from the motor trade he retains good title on it. My customer can't get his car back.

The Police investigated allegations of fraud but concluded no crime had been committed. The garage didn't steal the vehicle. They did exactly what they were asked to do...they sold it.

Of course, they were going to transfer the money to my customer but sadly they went out of business before that could happen. The lies they told were an attempt to improve their cash flow and trade through their financial difficulties - no crime in that. My customer becomes a trade creditor along with everyone else.

To top it off, as there has been no crime, there is no prospect of a theft claim on his insurance. :(

Oh, and this was a £20k Audi.

[-Ralph-]

Oh, and this was a £20k Audi.

Ouch

As he bought the vehicle from the motor trade he retains good title on it.

And this was the kind of answer I was looking for, thanks.

So is that the case regardless of circumstances? ie: if a motor trader sells a stolen car, the person who bought retains good title? Or are there certain restrictions around this?

[punyXpress]

and does Scottish law differ from t'rest?

[SUPERSTARDJ01]

I got my ZX from Midlands but got it a yr ago so hopefully wont be part of this although they did say it belonged to a friend of the garage.

[TamSV]

So is that the case regardless of circumstances? ie: if a motor trader sells a stolen car, the person who bought retains good title? Or are there certain restrictions around this?

After speaking to a local Sheriff, Police officers of various rank, a couple of Solicitors and a few blokes down the pub (and then sorting through the conflicting information) :rolleyes: the situation as I understand it is;

If the car is stolen then it might be recovered by the rightful owner and the dealer should compensate the purchaser.

If the dealer sold a car with outstanding HP on it then the innocent purchaser can retain good title.

In my customers case, the car wasn't stolen and, because it was sold through the trade, it didn't matter that my client kept a hold of the V5 (he mistakenly thought keeping hold of this document meant that the car couldn't be moved on without him knowing about it). So, again, the purchaser has good title. The fact that my customer has no money is merely a business deal gone wrong - no crime committed.


and does Scottish law differ from t'rest?

The definition of theft is different in Scotland. In England it has to be your intention to permanently deprive someone of their property whereas in Scotland it's not necessary to prove that (which is why private wheel clamping has long been judged as theft in Scotland and therefore illegal).

I would have thought the English law definition makes it even harder for the previous bike owners in the Midland Superbikes case. It would be hard to prove that the firm intended to permanently keep their cash.

The regulations on HP are within the Consumer Credit Act so apply to the whole UK.

[B1k3R]

I would have thought the English law definition makes it even harder for the previous bike owners in the Midland Superbikes case. It would be hard to prove that the firm intended to permanently keep their cash.
Isn't that TWOC? The "new keeper" would then be guilty as would MSB as they had knowledge that this offence was being committed.

In reality if theft means that you intended to "permanently deprive the owner" then selling a bike would prove that this was your intention, surely?

[SUPERSTARDJ01]

I emailed the auditors at about 15:00 they got back within 1 hr saying as I bought my bike in 2009 it's unlikely my bike will be in list of bikes.

[-Ralph-]

Isn't that TWOC? The "new keeper" would then be guilty as would MSB as they had knowledge that this offence was being committed.

In reality if theft means that you intended to "permanently deprive the owner" then selling a bike would prove that this was your intention, surely?

The new keeper wouldn't know that Midlands Superbikes didn't intend to give the money to the new owner.

Selling the bike does not prove that you intended to deprive the owner of the proceeds of that sale. Though this may have been the intention, that doesn't prove it. You would need something like an internal memo, that said, "don't send Mr Smith the cash for his bike that we just sold, we may go into administration soon so we may as well keep the money". as proof of that.

[B1k3R]

I agree with the first part, just another victim. Not sure about the second part. "Intent" is a big word.

I think that this could be more confusing if MSB sold a SOR bike as per the owners instructions or didn't sell it/sold it not as per the owners instructions. If sold as per the owners instructions, them the owner would just be a creditor due to "adopting the transaction" (Sale of goods act 18.4.a). If not sold/undersold they the owner would still have clear title. Nice that law is so cut and dried!

I pity anyone who has fallen victim. Sales of goods act here if anyone is really bored (http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1837068)

[TamSV]

If the proceeds of the sale went through the books correctly then that would support the assumption that they intended to pay the vehicles previous owner if the business had survived.

If, on the other hand, the business owner had put the cash in his own pocket then that would suggest fraud.

If a SOR bike was unsold then I would expect the owner will get their bike back (although what seems right isn't always what happens in practice).

[-Ralph-]

Well I'll never sell a bike SOR through a dealer.

[B1k3R]

If the proceeds of the sale went through the books correctly then that would support the assumption that they intended to pay the vehicles previous owner if the business had survived.

If, on the other hand, the business owner had put the cash in his own pocket then that would suggest fraud.

If a SOR bike was unsold then I would expect the owner will get their bike back (although what seems right isn't always what happens in practice).

Lets hope so.

Well I'll never sell a bike SOR through a dealer.
+1 for that.

Company's go to the wall everyday and it is a sad thing to see. Very easy to fall into the trap of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Personally I would have had a huge sale on the owned stock (bikes plus anything else) to get some cash flow first but it may have been too late for that. The thing is, who would want to take on the name of MSB if the liquidators are looking to sell the company as a going concern?

[sloppy joe]

The new keeper wouldn't know that Midlands Superbikes didn't intend to give the money to the new owner.

Selling the bike does not prove that you intended to deprive the owner of the proceeds of that sale. Though this may have been the intention, that doesn't prove it. You would need something like an internal memo, that said, "don't send Mr Smith the cash for his bike that we just sold, we may go into administration soon so we may as well keep the money". as proof of that.

Agree. For it to be a 'crime', in my limited knowledge, you have to prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt'. Doesn't sound like much, but very difficult to actually do.

In terms of getting an insolvency practitioner to pursue a director for fraud, rather than just wind up the company or sell on, very rare. Very strong suspiscion of a person being up to dodgy dealings just is not enough to see justice done. Sucks but true.

That's why Watchdog continues to make a living out of exposing people who suck money from a company, don't pay creditors (and probably put them out of business), liquidate and phoenix up a new company. It's the price we pay for living in a market economy that encourages entrepreneurs to take risks and provides a safe vehicle (a limited company) for it all to go belly up in.

Now then, MY new company will happily sell your bike on your behalf, double quick like, buyers waiting, anyone got an s1000rr they need rid of? All above board, I'll keep you updated....(queue 'Only Fools and Horses' theme tune).

[Specialone]

The thing is, who would want to take on the name of MSB if the liquidators are looking to sell the company as a going concern?

Actually, i have sent an email to the admin / liquidators asking how much its going for.

[Milky Bar Kid]

The definition of theft is different in Scotland. In England it has to be your intention to permanently deprive someone of their property whereas in Scotland it's not necessary to prove that (which is why private wheel clamping has long been judged as theft in Scotland and therefore illegal).


Just to clarify the Scots law position on theft:

Theft is a crime at common law and its the taking and appropriating of property without the consent of the rightful owner or other lawful authority.

Key elements to theft in Scotland:

1) There was appropriation of the property (as in, it was "taken" by someone)

2) The taking was felonious

3) There was intent to deprive the owner (A, intention to permantly deprive the owner or intention to temporarily providing there is an illegitimate purpose)

4) The property belonged to another.

[-Ralph-]

Actually, i have sent an email to the admin / liquidators asking how much its going for.

You can change a reputation of a business, much easier than that of an individual. People have short memories, and whilst group behaviour is not too intelligent, you can change group behaviour by getting the message across to the individuals.

I would keep the MSB name because it was a regular meeting point and people know where it is already, "meet at MSB at 10 o clock?". If you provide coffee, bacon rolls, and bikes to look at, then people will come, even if they think the owners are crooks, and they would never buy or sell a bike there. Once there it's a case of chatting to everybody that comes and being honest with them. Tell them exactly what happened under old management, making sure they know it's under completely new and unrelated management. The message will get around "Yeah, the new owners a guy called Phil, came and sat down at our table and had a coffee with us, seems like a really decent guy. They had an R6 I really liked the look of actually, said he'd do me a good deal on it."

Call it XYZ Motorbikes and you've got a whole shed load of work to do to get known, "XYZ Motorbikes? Who are they? Where are they?"

Don't know if being a motorcycle and accessories dealer is an easy business to make a success of, but then look at the growth and success of J&S Accessories. They must be doing something right, they started as one superstore in Northwich.

[Specialone]

You can change a reputation of a business, much easier than that of an individual. People have short memories, and whilst group behaviour is not too intelligent, you can change group behaviour by getting the message across to the individuals.

I would keep the MSB name because it was a regular meeting point and people know where it is already, "meet at MSB at 10 o clock?". If you provide coffee, bacon rolls, and bikes to look at, then people will come, even if they think the owners are crooks, and they would never buy or sell a bike there. Once there it's a case of chatting to everybody that comes and being honest with them. Tell them exactly what happened under old management, making sure they know it's under new management. The message will get around "Yeah, the new owners a guy called Phil, came and sat down at our table and had a coffee with us, seems like a really decent guy. They had an R6 I really liked the look of actually, said he'd do me a good deal on it."

Don't know if being a motorcycle and accessories dealer is an easy business to make a success of, but then look at the growth and success of J&S Accessories. They must be doing something right, they started as one superstore in Northwich.

Col, as i said last week, thats exactly what i fancy doing, dunno if MSB is out of my league, there are a few interested parties apparently.
Ive been looking for smaller potential places to set up, dont forget to keep your eyes open :)

[Dicky Ticker]

I agree with Ralph,our local Triumph stealer has franchised a buttie bar on his forecourt and it is noticeably busier.He gets the trade,money for the franchise/site--win,win situation without the hassle

[G]

Phil that would be awesome! You can easily spread good word through the tinterweb.

[Specialone]

G, i have been considering a career change for some time, i want something bike related as i have the interest with them.
Not bothered about making stupid amounts of money, im not money motivated, just want to make a living doing something enjoyable.

Just gotta find a suitable potential place to set up and see if i can afford to do it more importantly ;)
Ideally, a long itch type of set up in a old petrol station, close to good roads, but more bike specific.

[B1k3R]

Actually, i have sent an email to the admin / liquidators asking how much its going for.

Great news. I hope you can get it to work out.

You can change a reputation of a business, much easier than that of an individual. People have short memories, and whilst group behaviour is not too intelligent, you can change group behaviour by getting the message across to the individuals..

I disagree. The "name" or brand is why companys in this position are sold as going concerns. Hence the protection of brand names. This goes as far as colours and fonts. Internet is key for sales and promotion so the few people who know the MSB story will know that there is a potential new owner and things are good. Evryone else gets hit with pages of what happened. Unfortunatly the internet is not self cleaning so in 5 years time these facts will still be available. People research these days.

Making use of an exiting bike dealership is great planning. Fit out costs are huge. Better spent on stock and a good web site. Making it a place to meet is even better. I have never met anyone from this forum and it would be good to have a ride down to a central area to talk bikes.

I agree with Ralph,our local Triumph stealer has franchised a buttie bar on his forecourt and it is noticeably busier.He gets the trade,money for the franchise/site--win,win situation without the hassle
It is the way to go......grease of all kinds is good.

[-Ralph-]

I disagree

I figured you might, since you raised the question in the first place.

But then you say the name is why businesses are sold as going concerns. And that only a few people will know of the MSB story. If the MSB name is impossible to resurrect, why would the administrators sell it as a going concern? The name has value. Businesses go bust under dodgy circumstances and restart under new management all the time.

The potential fraud came to light after the business went into administration, so every news story on the internet will state that the business that committed the fraud had closed down, and will also state that the business was owned by Roger Constable. You'll notice the picture in the news article linked here is one of his face, not one of the MSB logo. The best reason to change the name, would be if he or his close associates were involved in the resurrection. Even then word would get out and taint the new business name, "You know that new place that started up where MSB used to be? Be careful, it's still the same guy that's running it". It's Roger Constable's name that is destroyed, not MSB.

I think customers are more intelligent than you are giving them credit for.

[B1k3R]

Just my opinion. I am a consumer so a potential customer to everyone too.

None of this affected me so I don't have any axe to grind. My last words on this subject.

[Lissa]

This thread shows how a fair few people have lost money due to the sale or return scam. Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere.

http://www.italiansportsbikeclub.com/midlands-superbikes-in-administration_topic7054_page1.html

[Lozzo]

The owner, Roger, has a lovely house

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Garden+House,+Pipewell&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=12.605358,38.803711&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Garden+House,+Pipewell,+Kettering+NN14+1QZ,+ United+Kingdom&ll=52.461128,-0.766734&spn=0.000793,0.002368&t=h&z=19

[L3nny]

G, i have been considering a career change for some time, i want something bike related as i have the interest with them.
Not bothered about making stupid amounts of money, im not money motivated, just want to make a living doing something enjoyable.

Just gotta find a suitable potential place to set up and see if i can afford to do it more importantly ;)
Ideally, a long itch type of set up in a old petrol station, close to good roads, but more bike specific.


What about that place in Chipping Norton, can't remember what it's called. That's up for sale

[Specialone]

What about that place in Chipping Norton, can't remember what it's called. That's up for sale

Hey Lenny, see if you can find out for me please, thats a bit nearer ;)

[danf1234]

This thread shows how a fair few people have lost money due to the sale or return scam. Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere.

http://www.italiansportsbikeclub.com/midlands-superbikes-in-administration_topic7054_page1.html

Its a fooking disgusting. Surely this is now a police matter.

[L3nny]

Ma Larkins is what it was called.

It was always full of bikers but I fear that's half the reason why it closed. Don't think the locals approved.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Ma+Larkins+Restaurant+And+Coffee+Shop&layer=c&sll=51.952632,-1.525118&cid=14864632043360816249&cbp=13,16.63,,0,1.66&cbll=51.952104,-1.524665&ved=0CBsQ2wU&ei=QyXgTI7aK4OgsQbCmZmbCQ&ie=UTF8&hq=Ma+Larkins+Restaurant+And+Coffee+Shop&hnear=&ll=51.952181,-1.525096&spn=0.067288,0.148659&z=13&panoid=NKzdHUrBE9xH-6kGxNUpXQ

[Specialone]

Ma Larkins is what it was called.

It was always full of bikers but I fear that's half the reason why it closed. Don't think the locals approved.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Ma+Larkins+Restaurant+And+Coffee+Shop&layer=c&sll=51.952632,-1.525118&cid=14864632043360816249&cbp=13,16.63,,0,1.66&cbll=51.952104,-1.524665&ved=0CBsQ2wU&ei=QyXgTI7aK4OgsQbCmZmbCQ&ie=UTF8&hq=Ma+Larkins+Restaurant+And+Coffee+Shop&hnear=&ll=51.952181,-1.525096&spn=0.067288,0.148659&z=13&panoid=NKzdHUrBE9xH-6kGxNUpXQ


That site looks good, but if you have opposition, you could never grow the business.

[L3nny]

That site looks good, but if you have opposition, you could never grow the business.

If I knew that I'd be doing it myself now wouldn't I :p

Just passing on gossip and hearsay. Could be a load of bollox.

[Specialone]

If I knew that I'd be doing it myself now wouldn't I :p

Just passing on gossip and hearsay. Could be a load of bollox.

I didnt know you wanted to do similiar :confused:
Been doing some investigating, it closed last november apparently, was turning over £250k, £100k GP, 16 year lease at £25k per annum, a very good prospect by all accounts.

[dizzyblonde]

This thread shows how a fair few people have lost money due to the sale or return scam. Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere.

http://www.italiansportsbikeclub.com/midlands-superbikes-in-administration_topic7054_page1.html


:smt103

That bloke really does have it coming to him!!
When I bought the VRap from 'East' Midlands Superbikes, I obviously googled them to find out if the were cnuts or not. 'Midlands' superbikes had nothing but big rocks thrown at them from many a folk, really bad reputation, so glad I didn't buy owt from them!

[andrewsmith]

The daggers are out for him.

I bought off a slightly iffy dealer but nothing like that

[-Ralph-]

This thread shows how a fair few people have lost money due to the sale or return scam. Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere.

http://www.italiansportsbikeclub.com/midlands-superbikes-in-administration_topic7054_page1.html

Much more serious than it seemed at first then.

Changes my mind somewhat about the MSB name argument, there seems to be a lot of local people involved, including a few bike traders, and strength of feeling very high. Maybe best if it gets a completely clean start.

There's a story on there about a Triumph in for repair, and the owner was fobbed off for 7 weeks with 'waiting for parts' excuses, only to be told by the administrators that the bike has been sold. If that is true is surely theft. I say IF true, because if it were true, wouldn't Roger Constable have been arrested and charged by now?

[dizzyblonde]

Much more serious than it seemed at first then.

Changes my mind somewhat about the MSB name argument, there seems to be a lot of local people involved, including a few bike traders, and strength of feeling very high. Maybe best if it gets a completely clean start.

There's a story on there about a Triumph in for repair, and the owner was fobbed off for 7 weeks with 'waiting for parts' excuses, only to be told by the administrators that the bike has been sold. If that is true is surely theft. I say IF true, because if it were true, wouldn't Roger Constable have been arrested and charged by now?
Thats the bit I found atrocious. Later in that thread, there is someone who says the police are calling it a 'civil matter', when taliing about all those losing money on a SoR, although not quite sure what they're supposed to mean by that.

[-Ralph-]

Thats the bit I found atrocious. Later in that thread, there is someone who says the police are calling it a 'civil matter', when taliing about all those losing money on a SoR, although not quite sure what they're supposed to mean by that.

This (post below by TamSV) is what they mean I think. By the letter of the law, with the SOR's, no crime has been committed. But if a bike in for repair has been sold, without any SOR agreement in place, then that surely is theft.

You might be surprised how this could turn out.

One of my customers was involved in what looks like identical circumstances earlier this year. He gave his car to a garage on sale or return. He retained the V5 in his possession.

Was fobbed off for several weeks by the garage saying they had someone interested but they wanted to test drive again, then they wanted their wife to look at the car etc.

Garage went out of business and it turned out the vehicle had been sold two months previously. The new owner had a V5 issued by DVLA in his name and had bought the vehicle on finance. As he bought the vehicle from the motor trade he retains good title on it. My customer can't get his car back.

The Police investigated allegations of fraud but concluded no crime had been committed. The garage didn't steal the vehicle. They did exactly what they were asked to do...they sold it.

Of course, they were going to transfer the money to my customer but sadly they went out of business before that could happen. The lies they told were an attempt to improve their cash flow and trade through their financial difficulties - no crime in that. My customer becomes a trade creditor along with everyone else.

To top it off, as there has been no crime, there is no prospect of a theft claim on his insurance. :(

Oh, and this was a £20k Audi.

[Specialone]

I just couldnt accept that, no fooking way.
How can that be possible if the car or bike wasnt theirs to sell, ie, they hadnt paid for it so wasnt theirs.

If a retail shop orders 10,000 jumpers but goes out of business before settling the bill, arent the suppliers entitled to take back whats theirs until bill paid?
Its fraud, no other word for it.
One way or the other, legal or not, i would get my car, bike, money back, even if i had to sell the debt to 'extremely un nice' people.

[TamSV]

If a retail shop orders 10,000 jumpers but goes out of business before settling the bill, arent the suppliers entitled to take back whats theirs until bill paid?

Not usually, no. If you provide goods on credit and the business goes bust then you join the line of creditors. The goods get sold by the administrators. The administrators and Inland Revenue then take 100% of what they're due and everyone else shares the scraps. Good innit?

[L3nny]

Sounds like some really dodgy stuff going on.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2010/November/nov1510-midlands-superbike-owner-did-same-in-90s/

[Specialone]

Ive been sent the accounts today, im no expert, but it doesnt seem such a good prospect tbh, they didnt make as much money as everyone thinks, well they didnt declare as much as anyway.

All the 'assetts' ie, machinery etc are all cheap stuff and not worth a great deal.

Its also a bid for the business, so dont actually know what they expect to get for it, so with that and all the other dodgy stuff gone on, im out :(

[brennan]

Looks like he has a prior experience of ripping people off!
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2010/November/nov1510-midlands-superbike-owner-did-same-in-90s/Post.aspx

I really hope he gets his comeuppance, what a complete w****r!

EDIT : beaten to it. Just seen above post. Oops

[danf1234]

Fooking Parasite. I hope it gets some, and more.

[Paul Rush]

It is with regret that I have to inform that Roger the MD of Midland Superbikes committed suicide on April 19th 2011 by jumping from Beachy Head cliffs. I have no idea if this affects anybody with regard to the cases they are pursuing.
Obviously this is a sad time for his family.
Thoughts are with them all.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8983162.Second_body_in_a_day_found_near_Beachy_Hea d/?ref=rss

It probably wont make a difference to people getting or not getting money as the business still has to be tied up and finalised I guess but Its sad to think he thought that his only option. I guess life with all the consequences of his actions just got too much for him which may prove he has done wrong doing but obviously to do summat like this also proves he had a guilty conscience and felt bad for the people he owed money too.
His poor son is only about 18 yrs old.
Its his family I feel for.

I hope you all get your money or bikes back though.

[G]

Bugger, as much as I think the bloke was an **** for what he did (several times with businesses under different names)... I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Let alone his family and relatives.

[dizzyblonde]

Thats a whole load of pressure to carry, some folk fold at such a heavy load on their shoulders.
TBH, I think poor bloke, even if he did owe money to lots of people :(

[paiste]

The only people I feel sorry for are his family and whoever had to scrape up what was left of him from the floor. He was totally responsible for his own actions.

[andrewsmith]

The only people I feel sorry for are his family and whoever had to scrape up what was left of him from the floor. He was totally responsible for his own actions.

Agree with that

[-Ralph-]

Thoughts go out to his family. I know what it is like to loose your father at that age. The man has obviously lived in turmoil, even if it was turmoil of his own making, now I hope he can rest in peace.

[Specialone]

Bugger, as much as I think the bloke was an **** for what he did (several times with businesses under different names)... I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Let alone his family and relatives.

Agree, life is too precious, it's the family that are left with the heartache.

Everything has been sold from there now so receivers have all the money they are gonna get.

[rob-the-blue]

For anyone that is interested - Mr Constable will not be ripping anyone else off.

http://www.marketharboroughpeople.co.uk/news/Company-boss-fraud-probe-dies-Beachy-Head/story-11091286-detail/story.html

[Geodude]

For anyone that is interested - Mr Constable will not be ripping anyone else off.

http://www.marketharboroughpeople.co.uk/news/Company-boss-fraud-probe-dies-Beachy-Head/story-11091286-detail/story.html

See post #51 by paul rush

[rob-the-blue]

Sorry yes I noticed after I'd posted it had already been covered.

[Paul Rush]

http://www.marketharboroughpeople.co.uk/news/Company-boss-fraud-probe-dies-Beachy-Head/story-11091286-detail/story.html

[speedplay]

Sad that someones life has to get so hard to bear that they feel they have to end it like that.

Still, I'm sure choosing to do it yourself has to be better than living the rest of your life looking over your shoulder, waiting for someone else to do it for you.

[Paul Rush]

That is very true.