Interesting thread discussing new test

[missyburd]

See here: http://motovlog.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1735&hilit=mod1

Really interesting read...first few posts about mod 1 but then the discussion moves onto making CBTs compulsory for everyone wanting to be on the road...)some saying even 12 months compulsory experience on a scooter!) as that would mean those ignorant cage drivers would know what it was like to be as vulnerable on the road as a rider and perhaps generally be more aware of bikers.

I don't think it's a bad idea - the CBT for everyone not the mandatory 12 months on a 'ped!) as it has the potential to greatly improve people outlook on the road today but then how long would it last? If they don't choose to take up biking after the CBT, they'd probably only loose what knowledge and awareness they did acquire and go from being nicely aware of everything in the first few weeks to being a dimwit again...

What do we think?

p.s. sorry for the link to a bit of bad language...gloss over it if you will ;-)

[orose]

I'd agree with that - perhaps not a CBT or test, but as part of the process of getting a car licence at least an idea of how it feels to be other types of road user (both bigger and smaller - you never know, you might get more people interested).

I note though that no-one there mentioned the changes coming in the 3rd driving licence directive from the EU - the 2 years and automatic upgrade would be coming to an end under that. Lots of other nastiness to come in there too :(

[andrewsmith]

I think this is one of those can of worms discussions

I'm for cage drivers to some form of smaller vehicle cbt.

as orose has said the Biking licensing is changing again. Why not the Car licence for a change and make it like a Scandinavian style system that would be a meaningful change.

[amnesia]

It's always the 'cage drivers' isn't it? Never the statistic on a 50cc ped overtaking over speed bumps with parked cars on both sides of the road, or one wheel warriors over the cat n fiddle.

How about making a car CBT compulsory for bike riders, so that you have the experience of how being insulated from your surroundings influences your decision making?


How about NOT letting people on the road unaccompanied on two wheels with L plates? Doesn't happen in cars does it?

[andrewsmith]

If you work on statistics more bikers are killed to car drivers.

But the flipside is that I had a car licence before my bike licence, I had a few work colleagues that were bikers and ex bikers that suggested doing the cbt.

The CBT teaches a damm sight more on observation than the car test and i immediately found i was driving a car like a bike and watching a lot more

[missyburd]

It's always the 'cage drivers' isn't it? Never the statistic on a 50cc ped overtaking over speed bumps with parked cars on both sides of the road, or one wheel warriors over the cat n fiddle.

I so rarely use the word "cage" when in reference to car drivers, trust me to be picked up on it the time I do :rolleyes: Only did that as I was still simmering from being barged out of a lane by some ignorant tw4t earlier on today so I truly am sorry if I come across as arrogant.

How about NOT letting people on the road unaccompanied on two wheels with L plates? Doesn't happen in cars does it?

What so they should have a responsible pillion who's been riding for 3 years? They should go everywhere supervised for the first 6 months? Oh, and while you're at it, how many people on 2 wheels do you see with a mobile phone copped to the side of their earhole while moseying on round a roundabout?:smt102

[yorkie_chris]

How about NOT letting people on the road unaccompanied on two wheels with L plates? Doesn't happen in cars does it?

Yeah take away the only freedom open to people who can't afford a full license, that's a good idea. :rolleyes:


I'm of the opinion that it's all b*llocks anyway. Making it harder and harder for people to get on with their life, sodding EU giving us a load of laws we don't want, don't need and can't pay for. Sprout munching tossers, I hope they sh*t a hedgehog.

[Specialone]

If you work on statistics more bikers are killed to car drivers.

But the flipside is that I had a car licence before my bike licence, I had a few work colleagues that were bikers and ex bikers that suggested doing the cbt.

The CBT teaches a damm sight more on observation than the car test and i immediately found i was driving a car like a bike and watching a lot more

Fully agree, i have been preaching about this for the last 2 years since i passed my test.
Even though i passed my driving test in 1989, i believe my driving has improved a hell of a lot in the last 2 years.

[Weirdfish]

As far as I am concerned, all peds should be gathered together and BURNT as they are accidents waiting to happen and 16 year olds, on the whole, are a pain in the **** when let out on these crappy machines! There should be far more restrictions on car drivers, newly qualified, with speed limiters fitted to their vehicles and curfews on young drivers unless for essential journeys, some insurance companies already offer reduced rates for youngsters prepared to undergo a curfew (I wonder why?)

Likewise there should be extra testing and restrictions on bikes to stop new bikers jumping straight on powerful sports bikes that they have no hope of understanding or riding safely, they should earn their right to ride more powerful bikes through experience and knowledge.
I like riding fast and getting on powerful machines but I have the experience and common sense to choose carefully where and how, it seems to me that there are too many numpties out there who haven't and don't. I was lucky enough to have spent my first 15 years or so of riding in an age when a 650cc was a big bike, so I cut my teeth on machines that were a tad easier to handle and a bit more forgiving of my mistakes.
Sometimes people need protecting from themselves and if they don't think so then my kids definately need protecting form them!!:smt077

[missyburd]

There should be far more restrictions on car drivers, newly qualified, with speed limiters fitted to their vehicles and curfews on young drivers unless for essential journeys, some insurance companies already offer reduced rates for youngsters prepared to undergo a curfew (I wonder why?)


And restrictions on the passengers they can have immediately after passing i.e. none for first few months or similar.

[amnesia]

...
...sorry if I come across as arrogant.

Not how it came across at all, so no apologies required. All I was doing was playing devil's advocate because the 'we're better than car drivers' card is played way too often. Its not a discussion if everyone agrees. ;)


What so they should have a responsible pillion who's been riding for 3 years? Not quite.
They should go everywhere supervised for the first 6 months? Not quite this either, but maybe after a minimum number of instruction hours? Heaven forbid, maybe after only passing a test - and not just the very limited CBT.

Oh, and while you're at it, how many people on 2 wheels do you see with a mobile phone copped to the side of their earhole while moseying on round a roundabout?:smt102 Granted, not many.

Yeah take away the only freedom open to people who can't afford a full license, that's a good idea. :rolleyes:

Not being able to afford a full licence doesn't mean people who aren't safe should be allowed on the roads.

[yorkie_chris]

Some CBT-ers wobble about a bit but they're only a danger to themselves for the first week or 2.

It is entirely their own decision whether to get further training, I am well against any limitation on personal liberty because "it's for your own good". Their decision, their life... and thousands of CBT riders ride every day safely and responsibly.

I can see why they got rid of the 250 learner law, 250s were getting fast enough to be a danger to other people. A 10bhp 125 though? Seriously a full test for one of those?


Fair enough being from down South, maybe they have public transport down there but if you were 16 years old, needing to get to college or a job you would have a different outlook on it. When the "bus service" only goes by once a week!!

[yorkie_chris]

And restrictions on the passengers they can have immediately after passing i.e. none for first few months or similar.

There aren't enough traffic police to stop people driving after 15 pints with no insurance.

Honestly I wouldn't want to burden them with another law which the idiots will ignore anyway and will just punish some young lad giving his Mum a lift to the supermarket (probably the same trip with same "supervision" he had while learning anyway!!).

Fair enough it would "stop" hooning around at midnight with 4 of your mates, but it would still happen.

[Lozzo]

how many people on 2 wheels do you see with a mobile phone copped to the side of their earhole while moseying on round a roundabout?:smt102

I do that all the time and I haven't killed anyone yet. I also speed all the time in the car but much more so on the bike, I pull wheelies off bumps and roundabouts and try to get my knee down at every opportunity, I filter aggressively and do all manner of things on bikes that really annoy other road users and most of the time would be considered highly illegal. If you compared most biker's antics against those of car drivers, the car drivers appear to drive like angels, whereas a typical ride with me or any of my mates watched in its entirety by the police would definitely see you in court and quite possibly banged up on a Dangerous Driving charge.

A little bit of perspective is required.

[Weirdfish]

I do that all the time and I haven't killed anyone yet. I also speed all the time in the car but much more so on the bike, I pull wheelies off bumps and roundabouts and try to get my knee down at every opportunity, I filter aggressively and do all manner of things on bikes that really annoy other road users and most of the time would be considered highly illegal. If you compared most biker's antics against those of car drivers, the car drivers appear to drive like angels, whereas a typical ride with me or any of my mates watched in its entirety by the police would definitely see you in court and quite possibly banged up on a Dangerous Driving charge.

A little bit of perspective is required.

Are you joking?

[beabert]

Some CBT-ers wobble about a bit but they're only a danger to themselves for the first week or 2.

It is entirely their own decision whether to get further training, I am well against any limitation on personal liberty because "it's for your own good". Their decision, their life... and thousands of CBT riders ride every day safely and responsibly.

I can see why they got rid of the 250 learner law, 250s were getting fast enough to be a danger to other people. A 10bhp 125 though? Seriously a full test for one of those?


Fair enough being from down South, maybe they have public transport down there but if you were 16 years old, needing to get to college or a job you would have a different outlook on it. When the "bus service" only goes by once a week!!

I agree, i see no major issues other than clarity needed over the 33bhp restriction.

Are you joking?

Nope that about somes up all the supersport riders that pass me lol, and the riders pn the 2 rides i have been on.

[Biker Biggles]

I do that all the time and I haven't killed anyone yet. I also speed all the time in the car but much more so on the bike, I pull wheelies off bumps and roundabouts and try to get my knee down at every opportunity, I filter aggressively and do all manner of things on bikes that really annoy other road users and most of the time would be considered highly illegal. If you compared most biker's antics against those of car drivers, the car drivers appear to drive like angels, whereas a typical ride with me or any of my mates watched in its entirety by the police would definitely see you in court and quite possibly banged up on a Dangerous Driving charge.

A little bit of perspective is required.

:D:D:D:D

Remind me never to accuse you of being "Holier than thou";)

[irons]

think people really need a wake up call here, i drove cars for 10 years before getting my bike licence and see this from both sides totally.

i now come across so many bikers who seem to want to blame car drivers for everything on the roads. i also work as a van driver and spend 10 hours everyday of my working week watching bad bad driving. I agree alot of car drivers are a complete joke but i would also say of all the bikers i see a good 70% ride in a very dangerous manner. So many bike riders ask for trouble because they take risks that they just dont need to. alot of bikers seem to think because they are on 2 wheels they can do as they please and fact is you cant. how many of you overtake and then cut in front of a car where there is a gap of say no more than a car length? that puts you at risk! the car you just tucked in front of has just had his/her stopping distance from the vehicle in front cut to almost nothing, overtaking towards on coming traffic over the white lines?
not in anyway against bikers, i am one but alot ask for trouble but blame everyone else for not seeing them, ride defensive always and you should never have a crash unless something totally crazy happens.

cars bikes lorry's vans all have really bad drivers, tests need to be longer and harder to pass for all. law's need to be tougher, caught on your mobile then loose your licence..you are after all commiting an offence that has over the years cost people their life

[dizzyblonde]

As someone who rode a bike for six years before taking a car test.....I still stand by my own thoughts of 'all people should learn to ride before learning to drive'.

Having driven for a few months, I have not had my thoughts on this altered towards a car driver....there is some right muppets driving on our roads, and they should all be put in a vunerable position to open up their eyes.

[irons]

it would not make a difference, when you learn to drive a car you are taught to use mirrors and look out for other road users, keep to the speed limit, dont cross your arms..etc etc but as soon as people pass it all changes, goes out the window and people drive the way they want. same again for bike riders, do you all still do every lifesaver all of time?
do you think driving a car prepares you for driving a hgv? course not even tho as a car you are vunerable to a hgv

[theshed]

maybe something simple would help like when you take a car test black out rear windows and limit size of side mirrors, instant need to be more aware of your surrounding and a bit of what it feels like to be on a bike.

[collis]

I took my Car test a few years after my bike and after going with no bike for a few years I'm glad I did it that way.
Firstly, i needn't worry about the Mod1/2/3343121331 (what ever).
I know my limits, when i came back to biking I knew I wanted something bigger than my good old GS500, the SV took my liking back then so was top of my list, I knew as much as i liked a Sprint ST i'd most certainately kill myself on one, lets not get into any super sports.

Driving the car I am more aware of my sorroundings, it allows me to be quicker as well as i'm looking further for better gaps etc when driving allowing me to make better time and drive more economically, unlike the car only drivers out there who insist on waiting in lines of traffic when there is 2 lanes going in 1 direction and 1 lane is empty.
I do agree, cars and bikes alike are vunerable to HGVs but realistically they are soo big it's up to us to watch for them and position ourselfs in a sence that should the HGV do something stupid we can get out of it easy (that's my choice anyway).

What really needs to be done is to educate parents into the dangers of bikes, properly of course, as I see som many kids out there on bikes that are not road registered, dangerously driven by people with no helmets etc, passengers wearing the finest in jogging bottoms and track suit jackets with no helmets whilst the bike is ridden along the pavements/narrow footpaths.
Gee thanks for increasing my insurance premiums when your passenger ends up dead.

I dont think there is anything wrong with the current testing systems, making them harder gives nothing extra that people will simply forget 5 minutes after getting their OWN transport.
Regular reviews would keep people up to the same standard like with HGV's, Busses, ADI's (driving instructors) etc. who all (confirm Busses and HGV's for me pelase?) have a check every so often to ensure that they are still driving to the correct standard.

my 10pence is now well and truely spent.

[Biker Biggles]

I think that while making car drivers take a bike test might make them better car drivers it aint gonna happen.Also,this line of thought tends to distract bikers from a simple truth,and that is we are responsible for ourselves out on the road,and it is dangerous for us to expect or rely on car drivers or anyone else to keep us alive.Far safer to believe that all other road users are totally inept and ride accordingly.
Having said that,I think as bikers we can improve our own skills and abilities by driving cars.Having a car drivers perspective on a situation can assist us to anticipate what a car might do and ride with that in mind.The classic accident which springs to mind is the filtering one where a car turns right without checking in the mirror.We may have established legally that the bike is often not at fault here,but prevention is better than cure.From a car drivers pov,you want to look at what is coming towards you when turning across a road,and it takes a real effort to think about looking in the mirror for filtering bikes(even though you should do).Worth bearing that in mind if you are the filtering bike.

[theshed]

as a class one hgv I can confirm at present there is no law that says you must have an assessment once you have got your licence however with some companies (I was with DHEll) make you sit three assessments a year plus ongoing training, the most valuable training I have ever received was on safe and efficient driving its not about going fast its about making progress safely, no good racing up to the lights just to sit there revving away

[thefallenangel]

Don't know if this is relevant but most non-car license holders (whether be lorry or bike) tend to be more obsverant as they have got another license because it's what they want to do where as people have a car licence because it's become a way of life.

[DaveyF]

I agree that you can never pass a rule that makes someone take a bike test first or even take a CBT first before learning to drive a car. I have friends who are scared of going on a bike as rider or pillion and I would hazard a guess that there is no lawmaker in the land who will make people like this ride a bike first. I'll happily admit that I am a much better driver having passd my bike test but would I tell my girlfriend to do the same to improve her driving (it probably needs it!) - no.

I think there has to be an acceptance that there will always be good drivers and bad drivers, exactly the same as that there are good and bad riders, coupled with the fact that how someone drives in a test is no measure of how they will drive on their own with a licence.

[irons]

Don't know if this is relevant but most non-car license holders (whether be lorry or bike) tend to be more obsverant as they have got another license because it's what they want to do where as people have a car licence because it's become a way of life.

biggest load of crap written on any forum:smt071

[thefallenangel]

biggest load of crap written on any forum:smt071


Speak as you find.

[yorkie_chris]

biggest load of crap written on any forum:smt071

So refute it in a sensible manner... rather than, ironically, writing a load of crap.

To back up his point a motorcyclist is more vulnerable on the road, so is more observant for self preservation reasons, the habit carries over.
The holder of a HGV license needs it for his livelihood, so is more observant, and also spends a lot of time on the road, so can probably spot a hazard developing earlier.

[gruntygiggles]

I think that while making car drivers take a bike test might make them better car drivers it aint gonna happen.Also,this line of thought tends to distract bikers from a simple truth,and that is we are responsible for ourselves out on the road,and it is dangerous for us to expect or rely on car drivers or anyone else to keep us alive.Far safer to believe that all other road users are totally inept and ride accordingly.
Having said that,I think as bikers we can improve our own skills and abilities by driving cars.Having a car drivers perspective on a situation can assist us to anticipate what a car might do and ride with that in mind.The classic accident which springs to mind is the filtering one where a car turns right without checking in the mirror.We may have established legally that the bike is often not at fault here,but prevention is better than cure.From a car drivers pov,you want to look at what is coming towards you when turning across a road,and it takes a real effort to think about looking in the mirror for filtering bikes(even though you should do).Worth bearing that in mind if you are the filtering bike.


Absolutely agree with this statement!

We are each ultimately responsible for our own actions and more often than not, accidents can be prevented by doing something differently ourselves. I'm not saying all motorbile accidents are the riders fault...far far from it. However, there is a tendency to blame car drivers for being irresponsible and not looking out for us.

Example...my ex had an off leaving his ex with multiple breaks and needing plates and pins and 4 operations over 4 years. He was t-boned by a land rover pulling out of a side road and has always maintained that the land rover driver was totally at fault for not looking properly.
In truth, the junction was on a bend in a 40mph limit and my ex was doing over 70mph...so chances are it was HIS actions that made it impossible for the land rover driver to see him until it was too late. I felt sorry for the LR driver and his ex girlfriend, but not him. He was almost double the speed limit and got off scott free when a young woman got permanent disfigurement and a LR driver has to live with that forever!

[DaveyF]

So refute it in a sensible manner... rather than, ironically, writing a load of crap.

To back up his point a motorcyclist is more vulnerable on the road, so is more observant for self preservation reasons, the habit carries over.
The holder of a HGV license needs it for his livelihood, so is more observant, and also spends a lot of time on the road, so can probably spot a hazard developing earlier.

Agree with this completely. This is also the reason I had to practice the bloody hazard awareness part of the theory test so much as I kept scoring zero on the practice examples I had because I identified them too early! Who would have thought driving for 13 years would make a test harder...

[sinbad]

The test leaves a lot to be desired, they always do. It's designed not just to test an individual's ability to ride a motorcycle, but to weed out a percentage. If 100% passed first time, the test would be deemed too easy.

This is how tests generally work, but especially when money and the government are concerned.

I've seen the off-road module and it doesn't look that hard. Whether it is relevant directly to road-riding or not (who said it has to be, there's an on-road module), I'd expect anybody that is on the road to be capable of completing it.

I do find the CBT to be a contradiction of the road-safety spiel that road authorities constantly bombard us with, but I'm sure I've posted about this before. I know 125s are "slow" (it's all relative), but nothing else changes. Suddenly they want you to jump through hoops because you want to ride a bike at motorway speeds. Roads are just as dangerous, traffic is just as dangerous. If you're the type to high-side a 600ss within a day, you'll probably put your YZFR125 onto the wrong side of the road out of a corner anyway.

[irons]

yorkie your reason is not even the same as his and i didn't really think the comment warranted much of a response, FACT is you cannot say somebody is more observant on the road because they wanted to get a lorry or bike licence instead of a car licence as its a way of life. how does that even stand up?
To even say bikers are more aware and observant of their surroundings is a very very small minded view. Everybody that uses the roads are vulnerable to serious injury or even death, yes some for example, bikers are more so but everyone is and nobody wants a crash. Bikers are so different to car drivers, van drivers, bus drivers or any driver on the road. i see loads and i mean loads of bikers riding in a very very dangerous manner, 80% of bikes i see on motorways for example undertake at 70-80 mph, they overtake and cut into small gaps that greatly reduce the following cars breaking distance, they sit in blind spots, they speed, they do almost everything that any other driver does. they are also involved in more accidents per percentage of all bikes on the road..so how i ask does that make them more observant? you will say its the car drivers fault i guess but a bike rider is taught to ride defensive and see dangers before they happen. they don't tho do they? listen im not against bikes at all, i ride one and love it but i do think alot of bike riders need to get there heads out of their **** and stop blaming a car driver for everything. there prob is more bad car drivers than bike riders but then there is a hell of alot more cars on the roads to bikes so that's law of average's. alot of bikers only see it from a bikers point of view, why dont all bikers have to take a car test first so they can see it from a car drivers point of view. This whole thread is crap, drive or ride for yourself and in a way thats going to give you the best chance of keeping safe, do the test for what you want to drive and treat everyone else on the road as a numpty

i am a van, car and bike driver and trust me i am as observant in each

[Lozzo]

Are you joking?

Nope - I was dead serious... why?

[yorkie_chris]

you will say its the car drivers fault i guess but a bike rider is taught to ride defensive and see dangers before they happen. they don't tho do they? listen im not against bikes at all, i ride one and love it but i do think alot of bike riders need to get there heads out of their **** and stop blaming a car driver for everything.

I agree many bikers put themselves in positions where they are likely to be knocked off. For example approaching junctions close to parked cars where cars pulling out can't see them. The resulting crash is the cars "fault" but the bike could have avoided it pre-emptively.

Another point I feel is worth making... the majority of bike riders are weekend warrior types who ride for pleasure and are most of the time car drivers. These are also the type most likely to be killed.