Cheap 4x4s

[The Basket]

Is there such thing as a cheap 4x4 to buy 2nd hand and run?

The bad weather has annoyed me and a 4x4 is the way to go.

I am talking basic. BMW X5s are not my thing. We are talking go...not show.

[mattSV]

How about a scooby - I only paid £2.5k for my impreza ;)

[gruntygiggles]

What's your budget? You can get an old landy series I or II for good prices these days with great off road capabilities, but they are not fast and not luxurious.

Then there are the jap 4x4's which have the comforts we've got used to in a car, can be cheap to pick up and are still good off road.

[gruntygiggles]

Also, any age Audi All Roads are good.

[benji106]

http://cdn.content.compendiumblog.com/uploads/user/38b3e375-1915-4596-a63d-12e14513c1b7/e331b20d-70ae-4d21-9e61-b548f50c89fa/Image/9cd4f74de11e43b58a976a6d722beebb.jpg
(http://cdn.content.compendiumblog.com/uploads/user/38b3e375-1915-4596-a63d-12e14513c1b7/e331b20d-70ae-4d21-9e61-b548f50c89fa/Image/9cd4f74de11e43b58a976a6d722beebb.jpg)

[L3nny]

The small Suzuki ones are supposed to be good. Jimnis, Samuaris and the like. Just don't try to go around a corner in one.

[fizzwheel]

Ford Maverick / Nissan Terrano II.

The ford is the Nissan with different badges on it. Hideous to look at, but you can pick up a decent one for £1500 ish, very car like to drive, but surprisingly good off road to. Ours is a 7 seater long wheel base version, which has loads of space inside.

Road Tax IIRC was £205 ish
Does about 25 to 30 mpg on a good day
Will sit at 70-80 on the motorway with no trouble at all, have seen 100mph on the speedo, but thats not good for fuel economy.
last time I bought tyres was £90 a corner, for something that works well off road to.
Has selectable 2wd / 4wd so on road you run it in 2wd which also keeps costs down. Has 4wd high and low range.

Problems with ours, needed rather alot of welding for one MOT, watch for rear seat belt mounts, its blew its heater matrix last winter which was rather expensive to buy. Sometimes people have trouble with the transfer box, but otherwise engine and transmission are well known for being bullet proof.

If you are going to get one, go for the later facelifted one like ours if you are going diesel as its intercooled so you get a little more power ( 122bhp ) look for the bonnet scoop.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/fizzwheel/Maverick/DSC_0411.jpg

[flymo]

take a look at the Nissan X Trail. On snow and ice it is truly awesome how it finds any grip at all.

I tested it on steep icy roads in my town, roads that other cars were totally unable to use, the XTrail climbed them like there was no ice at all, amazing.

[toxic]

The small suzukis jimnys are prone to flip over in a swerve, look at the accident damaged ones for sale and you can see they've all been rolled. Modified they're great off road, but rubbish on road
If what you need is more a 4 wheel drive car than an actual off-roader, cheapest one I know of is the Suzuki Ignis 4grip, 1.5 litre petrol... More off road and still cheap is the updated Daihatsu Terios, 1.5 petrol also, that was the car that Clarkson drove painted as a fox on TG.

I'm sure people will point you in the direction of diesels for economy, but unless you're going to do huge miles there's very little saving to be had for diesel, especially once you factor in the higher purchase prices.

[454697819]

http://cdn.content.compendiumblog.com/uploads/user/38b3e375-1915-4596-a63d-12e14513c1b7/e331b20d-70ae-4d21-9e61-b548f50c89fa/Image/9cd4f74de11e43b58a976a6d722beebb.jpg
(http://cdn.content.compendiumblog.com/uploads/user/38b3e375-1915-4596-a63d-12e14513c1b7/e331b20d-70ae-4d21-9e61-b548f50c89fa/Image/9cd4f74de11e43b58a976a6d722beebb.jpg)

that looks like 2 x 2

[husky03]

cheap-but it is a jap and therefore not a real 4x4(has to start with a land then end in rover)

http://www.mod-sales.com/auction/vehicle/related/33875/Isuzu_Trooper_3.0TD_LS_DIRECT_GOVERNMENT_SALE.htm

[Stu]

Are winter tyres on a normal car a suitable alternative?

[toxic]

Depends on the car.

[Stu]

Depends on the car.
Say, any front wheel drive with no traction ctrl (e.g. Scenic)

[rowdy]

Cheap and very capable off road, but not many around Lada Niva.
Cheap, capable and reliable as fook, but a little thirsty on fuel Subaru Forester.

[rowdy]

Say, any front wheel drive with no traction ctrl (e.g. Scenic)
Yes Stu, massive improvement. Ever wondered why it is only this country that grinds to a halt when the weather conditions get a little tricky.

Edit: From a copy of AutoExpress from two weeks ago, they say that a cold weather tyre test produced the following result
Snow braking test (from 25mph)
winter tyre 18.5 metres
summer tyre 43.1 metres

Snow handling test (500m track)
winter tyre 101.9 seconds
summer tyre 160.1 seconds

Doesn't state what specific tyre or car used though.

[Skip]

Say, any front wheel drive with no traction ctrl (e.g. Scenic)
I have a Honda Accord Type-R and someone on the forum fitted proper winter tyres (http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Nokian/WRG2.htm) to one (he lives in central Scotland somewhere) and over took a slithering about BMW X5 on a snowy hill - he says he wishes he had done it years ago.

[gruntygiggles]

This is awesome...this is the kind of vehicle that tows other land rovers out even when it's totally standard as this one is. The old ones are the best...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1974-LAND-ROVER-SERIES-III-88-2-25-DIESEL-BLUE-CREAM-/170569246140?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item27b6b825bc

This one has had the head gasket and related parts replaced which is the main thing to go when you get one of these. Sounds like it will need a little welding to go through the next MOT in Feb, but if you know a welder...won't be a massive or expensive job. This will give you a nice comfy ride and still get you out of trouble in the bad weather.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/land-rover-discovery-/270671451057?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item3f054693b1

This would be a good buy, but speak to someone with more knowledge of these before you buy...nice comfort and good off road though

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1996-ISUZU-TROOPER-DUTY-SWB-BLUE-/130460198672?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item1e6008a710

This is cheap and will do the job...prob add a little extra to get it taxed, but will do the job of giving more traction.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1994-SUBARU-LEGACY-GT-4x4-great-winter-/200549048849?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item2eb1a7a211


These are just ideas, but remember...driving in snow and ice is more about the driver than the vehicle.

I say this because if you don't know how to drive in those conditions, no 4x4 will be able to do it for you....unless you have tens of thousands to spend on a disco 4 or a newish range rover where you just push a button.

If you really do want to be able to get around in properly bad weather, then a land rover or a well prepped import like the trooper is what you need.

Remember if you get a vehicle with a low transmittion box, when you use it, especially in snow and ice, start in 2nd at least but usually 3rd gear. Starting in low box 1st gear would mean very quickly having to change up the gears which is not what you want. You need momentum on snow and ice, so 2nd or better still 3rd gear with the diff lock on and there's no need to break momentum by changing gear.

[gruntygiggles]

I can vouch for how good Fizzwheels Maverick is...was ace off road when we went to Salisbury.

Yep, better winter biased tyres do make a massive difference to 2 wheel dive vehicles, as they do 4 wheel drive. Tyres actually can play a massive part, the size of the 4x4 tyre industry is testament to that.

If you go for a landy/trooper/maverick etc...but don't want to do any serious off roading, you can go for an all terrain that is 70% on road 30% off road. That ratio should see you through all on road conditions and a fair amount of off road too.

I remember living in America as a kid and nothing stopped there in the snow because everyone had snow chains. They were awesome!

[Sir Trev]

How about a scooby - I only paid £2.5k for my impreza ;)

Older Legacy's are going for sensible money. Have considered one as a replacement for the Mundaneo but the thirst and poor emissions are putting me off...

[Luckypants]

Buy some proper tyres on a spare set of rims, will make a massive difference. Modern low profile wide tyres may offer loads of grip on tarmac, but in snow and ice they just sit on top and spin. Take a look at how much narrower the tyres are on rally cars when running on snow... (OK extreme example but you get the idea).

I use General Grabber AT2 on the x-trail, a certified snow tyre in Canada and USA. Makes mincemeat of snowy conditions, often pass landrovers, range rovers, L200s, Navarras, etc sat there spinning all 4 wheels due to the tyres. The fella up the hill has an A6 Quattro that goes nowhere in the snow, his tyres just have no grip, yet I took him home one night in 6" deep snow...

Guy down the road bought some winter tyres on spare rims for his Clio, after the shenanigans in January. Since fitting them at the weekend he has not needed to leave his car in my drive, he can get up from/down to his house with relative ease.

Tyres are the important thing IMHO.

[fizzwheel]

General Grabber AT2 a certified snow tyre in Canada and USA.

I didnt know that, thats what we have on our Maverick.

[Stu]

I have a Honda Accord Type-R and someone on the forum fitted proper winter tyres (http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Nokian/WRG2.htm) to one (he lives in central Scotland somewhere) and over took a slithering about BMW X5 on a snowy hill - he says he wishes he had done it years ago.
excellent!
now what about proper winter motorcycle tyre?

[Venom]

Are winter tyres on a normal car a suitable alternative?

or if things get really bad....

http://www.snowchains.co.uk/

[Richie]

a few people in the Falklands had ...

Fiat Panda 4x4...

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f315/Citivanvin/Sisley%20in%20the%20Snow/PIC_0006.jpg

[gruntygiggles]

Buy some proper tyres on a spare set of rims, will make a massive difference. Modern low profile wide tyres may offer loads of grip on tarmac, but in snow and ice they just sit on top and spin. Take a look at how much narrower the tyres are on rally cars when running on snow... (OK extreme example but you get the idea).

I use General Grabber AT2 on the x-trail, a certified snow tyre in Canada and USA. Makes mincemeat of snowy conditions, often pass landrovers, range rovers, L200s, Navarras, etc sat there spinning all 4 wheels due to the tyres. The fella up the hill has an A6 Quattro that goes nowhere in the snow, his tyres just have no grip, yet I took him home one night in 6" deep snow...

Guy down the road bought some winter tyres on spare rims for his Clio, after the shenanigans in January. Since fitting them at the weekend he has not needed to leave his car in my drive, he can get up from/down to his house with relative ease.

Tyres are the important thing IMHO.


+1 to all that!

[Luckypants]

Fiat Panda 4x4...


Good call Richie, those things are great in snow. Low weight, low power, decent tyre options. Getting hard to find now though.

[The Basket]

The weather conditions I am facing at the moment are very poor. Therefore my thought of a jeep.

I had considered and looked seriously before but the downside of more expensive running costs has been a factor in not having one. ...plus the downside of owning a vehicle with a high centre of gravity and a stoppage distance measured in kms. However, if winters are constant ice ages then one must make a more informed choice. Jap or Korean...Honda CRV or Toyota Rav4 or Kia Sportage.

I saw a test for a Fiat Panda 4x4 and the results were excellent. There is a new one available.

4x4 have more traction but same level of grip as a normal car if using road tyres. I will look into winter tyres as a cheaper way than buying a vehicle.

[CheGuevara]

I'm selling my Toyota Hilux Surf 3.0TD for cheap. In good shape -only 100k miles and bullet-proof reliable. Last year I chose my routes based on which had the most/depest snow :D

[andrewsmith]

traditionally Hilux's woud be about £500 for a battered runner, but courtesy of Top Gear they are £1,500 now

Jeep Cherokee's are coppers to buy. Berlin on here rates them for winter running but can be thirsty

[The Basket]

Had a relation who used to sell Jeeps, Dodges and Chryslers...

Didnt speak highly.

[G]

I've not read all the pages but you can pick up a suzuki SJ for under £1k and they are very very capable machines.

[CheGuevara]

Had a relation who used to sell Jeeps, Dodges and Chryslers...

Didnt speak highly.

Owned a Cherokee myself (XJ 4.0) and it was an absolute turd.

[The Basket]

Dodge...clue is in the name...

[embee]

Proper winter tyres are excellent, I have a set of Goodyear Ultragrip5 on my car, got them when I worked in Austria. Laws are changing on the Continent, when I was there it wasn't a legal requirement as such but they announced the "winter-reifen" date and after that if you were involved in an accident and didn't have them, you were considered responsible regardless. Everyone had a spare set of wheels and winter tyres.

In Germany now it is a legal requirement, my MOT man was telling me he was going to see friends in Germany last winter and the Police were lined up at the border stopping every UK registered car and doing them because they knew they wouldn't have winter tyres fitted. Oh yes, Eu60 per tyre, kerching, and car is going nowhere.

As for practical 4x4, the CR-V Honda is a good "car", the 4x4 is only part time (not much goes to the rear and then only when the fronts slip) but it's a very user friendly car. My Dad has one, I think he's put a new battery and some tyres on it in 11 years.

[fizzwheel]

I had considered and looked seriously before but the downside of more expensive running costs has been a factor in not having one

Ours is our second car so it pootles to the local park with the dogs in the back or I use it to get to work when I cant be bothered to cycle ( like at the moment )

Its not worth much money so is insured Third Party Fire & Theft, £170 ish. Ok it is thirsty if you take it a long way, but you compensate for that by reducing the speed, plodding on at 60 - 65mph its not actually to bad.

Now we have spent a little money on it it went straight through its last MOT with no work needing doing on it at all.

Apart from the fuel, I dont think its that much more expensive than running a car would be. But then as we dont do huge milleage in ours its not even that much of an issue for us anyway.

At the risk of incuring the wrath of Landrover fans on here ( sorry Grunty ) I'd be worried about buying a cheap / old Defender / Disco purely because I'd be worried about it turning into a money pit...

[urbane1]

Winter tyres are the way to go. 4x4's get you moving, but they stop no better than any other car, probably worse due to the higer centre of gravity. You see more 4x4's in the ditches here than anything else, they think the are invincible, but come unstuck the first time they try to stop.
In Quebec it is a legal requirement to have winter tyres fitted between Dec. 15 and Mar. 15, and it is being considered making it a requirement in other provinces.

[The Basket]

This vehicle would be a primary transport...so mileage and costings are important.

Land Rover Discoverys have a reputation for expensive fragility. Will pass.

[fizzwheel]

This vehicle would be a primary transport...so mileage and costings are important..

Probably wise to look elsewhere than what we have then, Tank takes £75 ish to fill it and it'll do 420 ish miles on that. Its not very frugal...

[Dave20046]

Is there such thing as a cheap 4x4 to buy 2nd hand and run?

The bad weather has annoyed me and a 4x4 is the way to go.

I am talking basic. BMW X5s are not my thing. We are talking go...not show.

I've been thinking exactly the same but they're just too much to run, I can't think of anything that'll have near sensible insurance, tax and fuel consumption.

[yorkie_chris]

I'd be worried about it turning into a money pit...

What do you mean turning into one :smt037

[andrewsmith]

What do you mean turning into one :smt037

Landies do seem to be money pits full stop.

I'm sure my mate spent £4k getting a Series 3 a runner. He was pretty skint by the end and just worked in the snow and did 19mpg pottering.

Thankfully he talked me out of it!

[dizzyblonde]

Yup the old poofwaggon costs a lot in fuel, but i'll tell you now, its the only vehicle on our street to happily carry on regardless in this lot! In Yorkshire you need a proper car ..... YC don't...I know you've 'warmed' to it ;)
Actually was watching youtube this afternoon, and watching many a V6Freelander pulling out an old Disco.


BUT right now its not doing a lot, its stuck under a blanket and will need digging out.

[gruntygiggles]

At the risk of incuring the wrath of Landrover fans on here ( sorry Grunty ) I'd be worried about buying a cheap / old Defender / Disco purely because I'd be worried about it turning into a money pit...

You won't incur my wrath Fizz...as said in my posts, you need to get one that has already had the work done on it. If you get a bad one...yep...money pit!

I put a link up for a trooper as they've always been pretty good off road, but so are surfs, your maverick as I said was brilliant.

Speaking honestly, you have to have a love for Landys to get one really. We wouldn't part with ours for anything...but are happy to spend the money and do the work ourselves as we enjoy it.

[yorkie_chris]

I've been looking at similar stuff
Shogun is top contender so far, but I'm warming to the isuzus as they have iron heads rather than alloy so blow less head gaskets.

But I think I'll wait till I've found some insurance quotes less than £2k before I buy owt eh!

[fizzwheel]

You won't incur my wrath Fizz...as said in my posts, you need to get one that has already had the work done on it. If you get a bad one...yep...money pit!

It was Rick's Disco that I had in mind when I wrote that... case in point perhaps ?

[cb1000rsteve]

Suzuki Jimny. Totally underated 4x4. cheap as chips too. Old fiat panda 4x4 where pretty good too. When i off roaded in the Rangey these little things used to buzz passed!

[gruntygiggles]

It was Rick's Disco that I had in mind when I wrote that... case in point perhaps ?

Very much so Fizz. I had advised him and Dan get a specialist we know check anything before buying it, but hey ho...that's life.

We did it with ours and were very glad. Cost us £40 to take our local Land rover specialist out to look at a few with us and so so glad. As much as we can check for the basics, we saw a disco we both loved. He looked at it and tore it apart, it would have cost us thousands within 6 months.

Ended up looking at the one we got and he couldn't find a single thing wrong with it save for the fact that the low box wouldn't engage as it had never been used. Fixed easily enough with a strong vice and big hammer :-).

Discos are amazing, all land rovers are amazing, but if you don't like them to start with...you'll resent every little bit of work that needs doing.

85% are still on the road from conception over 60 years ago...but they've all had to have a lot of work to keep them there...lol

[dizzyblonde]

I've been looking at similar stuff
Shogun is top contender so far, but I'm warming to the isuzus as they have iron heads rather than alloy so blow less head gaskets.

But I think I'll wait till I've found some insurance quotes less than £2k before I buy owt eh!

If you think ours is expensive to run, a Shogun is much more!

As for the 2k.....ya'll be waitin a loooooooong time:rolleyes:

[dizzyblonde]

Suzuki Jimny. Totally underated 4x4. cheap as chips too. Old fiat panda 4x4 where pretty good too.

I wanted one of those, if it was just for me to run around in...but I got family, dog and kitchen sink to cart around!

Love em to bits, well cool, but I reckon insuring it on my own insurance would still be mega:mad:

[fizzwheel]

Thing is, I think its a little unfair to except something the size and weight of our Maverick to be cheap to run.

2.7 tdi putting out 122bhp to shift 2 1/2 tonne of vehicle, plus all the extra drag and weight of the 4 x 4 I expect it to be heavy on fuel and I knew that when we bought it. its why I recommended the Maverick / Terrano, because you can run it in 2WD mode when on Tarmac so it saves a little on juice that way.

I dont understand why the insurance is so expensive on them though. its why Lozzo sold us his because he couldnt afford the insurance on it.

[dizzyblonde]

2.7 tdi putting out 122bhp to shift 2 1/2 tonne of vehicle, plus all the extra drag and weight of the 4 x 4 I expect it to be heavy on fuel and I knew that when we bought it. its why I recommended the Maverick / Terrano, because you can run it in 2WD mode when on Tarmac so it saves a little on juice that way.

.

Ours 2.5l petrol, is between 175-200 bhp dependant on year, to shift about 2 tonne.
When you work it out, everyone expects diesel to work out cheaper, but I reckon on its around the same to run in the current climate of fuel pricing. How much MPG do you get out of your Maverick?

[fizzwheel]

MPG do you get out of your Maverick?

25 to 30mph, more like 25mpg most of the time TBH.

[dizzyblonde]

25 to 30mph, more like 25mpg most of the time TBH.


Pretty much the same MPG as the Freelander then on a day to day. Obviously better on a long run down a mway!

Sounds feckin marvellous though...for a car:D

[Stonesie]

Theres a very tempting Subaru justy on Ebay at the moment, think Suzuki swift but with Subaru's AWD system...

[dizzyblonde]

I saw a Subaru attempting to drive on the local news today, only on a smidgeon of slush.....it failed, miserably! IMO utter Sh1te!

[andrewsmith]

As a hijack why don't you buy one of these :p

http://www.bowler-offroad.com/Nem_2009/Gallery/Gal_17.jpg

[fizzwheel]

I saw a Subaru attempting to drive on the local news today, only on a smidgeon of slush.....it failed, miserably! IMO utter Sh1te!

It'll be the tyres, especially if it was an imprezza, wide low profile tyres dont work on snow.

[dizzyblonde]

As a hijack why don't you buy one of these :p

http://www.bowler-offroad.com/Nem_2009/Gallery/Gal_17.jpg

:smt103 PERFECT!!!!:p

It'll be the tyres, especially if it was an imprezza, wide low profile tyres dont work on snow.

Yup it was, they're as common as muck around here. Bit of a chavmobeel in Hx. As for the tyres, its like those super duper slick Range Rovers, which our car takes the pee out of in the snow, illustrated in last years snow fall. Range Rover man 1, Pegs Poofwaggon 10 :D

[andrewsmith]

It'll be the tyres, especially if it was an imprezza, wide low profile tyres dont work on snow.

If you ever see snow rally tires they are around half the size of the tarmac rubber.

[Gazza77]

There is a considerable downside to most 4*4s that many people don't realise. Yes, the extra traction helps get it going in snow. The extra weight can make it considerably more difficult to stop however, especially going downhill. I wish more people I see driving them realised this, especially when they are inches from the rear of me. :rolleyes: I'm generally happy with the 2006 Suzuki Grand Vitara we have, but you have to drive appropriately for the conditions regardless of what you're in. As has been mentioned earlier too, tyres are vital. I have a set of Yoko Geolander ATS on mine which are M+S rated and which work well in pretty deep snow where I live, and the extra engine braking from low ratio gears can help too when going downhill on snow covered roads. I'd still like a set of proper winter tyres though, but at the moment can't afford a set and some spare rims to put them on. :(

[andrewsmith]

:smt103 PERFECT!!!!:p

Yup it was, they're as common as muck around here. Bit of a chavmobeel in Hx. As for the tyres, its like those super duper slick Range Rovers, which our car takes the pee out of in the snow, illustrated in last years snow fall. Range Rover man 1, Pegs Poofwaggon 10 :D

Dizz i think that would give the Poofmobile a run for its money and carry 4 bikes and the kitchen sink

[svrich]

It's all been said really.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a cheap 4x4. There maybe one that doesn't cost much to buy but it will come back to bite you in repairs and running costs. IMHO Landrovers of any model are great, but you really, really need to know what you are looking at. There are some great older ones about but they are fetching a lot of money now as all the others will need loads doing to them. Maybe try 4.0 P38 Rangie on LPG? The 4.6 are prone to cylinder problems due to over bore. If you get a low spec one there will be less to go wrong but you still get the comfort and ability. But still, any repairs will be costly. If you can do basic, go for as late a model Discovery/Rangerover as you can afford but take someone who knows them along. It's taken me 15 years of ownership and one complete rebuild to know enough to feel happy deciding if one is good or not, but that doesn't include the newer models.
If it's going to be a main vehicle you will need to invest in a good one, or it could prove costly in the long run.
But that's just my thoughts, and completly bias ;)

[dizzyblonde]

Dizz i think that would give the Poofmobile a run for its money and carry 4 bikes and the kitchen sink


well if it can carry 4 bikes, the kitchen sink, two kids and a dog......I'll have one LOL!:p

[andrewsmith]

well if it can carry 4 bikes, the kitchen sink, two kids and a dog......I'll have one LOL!:p

This do then?

http://www.mod-sales.com/auction/vehicle/related/33943/BEDFORD_MJ_SERIES_4X4_FLATBED_DIRECT_GOVERNMENT_SA LE.htm

http://www.mod-sales.com/thumb/phpThumb.php?src=../images/product/1291221529P1020406.JPG&w=400&h=340&zc=1&fltr[]=wmi|../images/over.png|CBR|100

[dizzyblonde]

No....I don't like the colour ;)

[urbane1]

There is a considerable downside to most 4*4s that many people don't realise. Yes, the extra traction helps get it going in snow. The extra weight can make it considerably more difficult to stop however, especially going downhill. I wish more people I see driving them realised this, especially when they are inches from the rear of me. :rolleyes: I'm generally happy with the 2006 Suzuki Grand Vitara we have, but you have to drive appropriately for the conditions regardless of what you're in. As has been mentioned earlier too, tyres are vital. I have a set of Yoko Geolander ATS on mine which are M+S rated and which work well in pretty deep snow where I live, and the extra engine braking from low ratio gears can help too when going downhill on snow covered roads. I'd still like a set of proper winter tyres though, but at the moment can't afford a set and some spare rims to put them on. :(

+1.
M+S tyres are fine when the temperature is fairly high, but the advantage with winter tyres (either ice or snow) is the compound is designed to stay soft, and most have abrasive additives in to provide additional grip.

[embee]

As above, the two key design features of true winter tyres are the compound (start to see the benefits below about 10C I believe, but gets very significant below 0C) and the tread block design. The grooves (sipes) between the blocks are much bigger to cater for water dispersal and to allow snow to pack in which gives friction with the snow surface, but the multiple fine slits in the blocks make them very flexible so as the tyre leaves the road it deflects and the snow falls out again so they don't become smooth cylinders like summer tyres do.

The 2 downsides to them in my experience is that in dry reasonably warm weather (like you can get sometimes, remember then?) the grip is not that good so often get wheelspin pulling away from junctions, and they do feel a little wobbly compared to summer tyres, but you soon learn to compensate. The benefits definitely outweigh the disadvantages in the cold.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh268/Hi-vis/IMG_3799Small-1.jpg

[Lozzo]

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/fizzwheel/Maverick/DSC_0411.jpg

And to think I washed and polished it especially for you before you bought it off me. Glad it's still going strong.

[speedplay]

The bad weather has annoyed me and a 4x4 is the way to go.



Fatso did this to my freelander last year :-

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=144132&highlight=ms-speedplay

[Gabriel2k]

Fiat Panda 4x4.

[Gazza77]

Well I've been beaten by the snow this morning. Although I managed to get out of our lane through about 18 -24 inches where it had drifted, I soon found myself beached in a 3 foot or so drift once I was heading uphill. Low ratio, diff locked, made no difference, I had to dig myself out and back down the hill again. That's me going no-where for the day.

[dizzyblonde]

Whereabouts in the doollaalley valley do you live gazza?

[Gazza77]

Old Town, just outside Hebden Bridge. Fairly near the Lane Ends (Hare & Hounds) if you know where that is.

[dizzyblonde]

Yeah know it well, my ex partner and missus lives up there and an Old friend who runs Muse Music.

[Gazza77]

Yeah know it well, my ex partner and missus lives up there and an Old friend who runs Muse Music.
You mean Sid I presume? He seemed to be doing fairly well in the music quiz last weekend.

[dizzyblonde]

You mean Sid I presume? He seemed to be doing fairly well in the music quiz last weekend.

yup, I've known Sid since I was around sixteen. I'd be disappointed if he didn't do well in the music quiz!
If you know Sid, you'll know my ex partner and his mrs. Small world isn't it:p
If not, then look out for an old SRX600, thats his bike, as well as a very noisy VRaptor.

[Gazza77]

yup, I've known Sid since I was around sixteen. I'd be disappointed if he didn't do well in the music quiz!
If you know Sid, you'll know my ex partner and his mrs. Small world isn't it:p
If not, then look out for an old SRX600, thats his bike, as well as a very noisy VRaptor.

I know who he is, but I wouldn't say I know him. He's one of a few of the villagers that I recognise and would say "hi" to in the pub without actually knowing them. The in-laws know him though. They know everyone here though! I've only lived here for about 2 years or so. The Mrs has lived here all her life, as have her parents.

[dizzyblonde]

Well Old Town is very 'local' LOL. Sids part of the furniture up there :)
We'd live there but its a bit too pricey for us, lovely part of Hebden. Mind you saying that sometimes I'm glad we haven't moved down there, as getting cut off in that part of the world with two kids isn't really my cuppa.

[Gazza77]

Well Old Town is very 'local' LOL. Sids part of the furniture up there :)
We'd live there but its a bit too pricey for us, lovely part of Hebden. Mind you saying that sometimes I'm glad we haven't moved down there, as getting cut off in that part of the world with two kids isn't really my cuppa.

It's a geat place to live, but you're right, it's a bit pricey. We bought this house to do up, and despite being the 3rd house I've owned, it's the smallest and by far the most expensive. Cracking views though, we live just below the pub, so look down the valley. This is the first time that i've been stuck, even through all of last winter, and I'm sure I'll be able to get out a bit later on.

[MR UKI (1)]

I saw a Subaru attempting to drive on the local news today, only on a smidgeon of slush.....it failed, miserably! IMO utter Sh1te!

Next door to me has a Forester. He was telling me earlier this year it was struggling to pull his caravan across wet grass. He wasn't very impressed :D

[_Stretchie_]

Had a relation who used to sell Jeeps, Dodges and Chryslers...

Didnt speak highly.

Heavy too, cast iron head on them Cherokees I think, see bleow quote from Gazza

At the risk of incuring the wrath of Landrover fans on here ( sorry Grunty ) I'd be worried about buying a cheap / old Defender / Disco purely because I'd be worried about it turning into a money pit...

He's got a point, you've got to love them, even if you find one that's not been abused then you're likley to find it has other problems because it has not been used as it should be...

You can't live with them, can't keep hold of your cash if you have them

I saw a Subaru attempting to drive on the local news today, only on a smidgeon of slush.....it failed, miserably! IMO utter Sh1te!

Tyres!

There is a considerable downside to most 4*4s that many people don't realise. Yes, the extra traction helps get it going in snow. The extra weight can make it considerably more difficult to stop however, especially going downhill.

Massively correct there sonny jim.

And to think I washed and polished it especially for you before you bought it off me. Glad it's still going strong.

Yeah, but I watched him get it duuuurty... And he LOVED it

Next door to me has a Forester. He was telling me earlier this year it was struggling to pull his caravan across wet grass. He wasn't very impressed :D

Tyres

:eek:

Just to echo the sentiments. Just like the bikes the tyre should be chose for what you use it for, you wouldn't buy a super sport tyres if you're going on a 4k miles tour around europe would you, you'd get a good sports touring tyre instead.

They should be marked on the sidewall as "M+S" for mud and snow if that's what you want to use them for.

Here's ours tyres when they were put on 30k miles ago

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/Stretchie_/Disco/DSC00602.jpg

Still going but not quite as much tread on them now, will get a pic later. However, they are alot noisier than the tyres we took off and we also get 50 miles a tank less than with the old tyres on. Braking isn't as good nor is handling, but then that's all taken in to consideration and it does get driven accordingly

[yorkie_chris]

Heavy too, cast iron head on them Cherokees I think, see bleow quote from Gazza

Some of the jeeps use a french diesel engine which has 4 separate head castings. Dunno why, I don't think they're up to much though.

[Dicky Ticker]

Suzuki Jimny 1.3 40mpg cheap as chips

[embee]

Some of the jeeps use a french diesel engine which has 4 separate head castings. Dunno why, I don't think they're up to much though.

I think they were VM Motori diesels, Italian. Separate heads is a bit of an industrial/marine engine type approach. Makes sense for big'uns but not really for small auto stuff.

I once (many many years ago) did some work with VM, that engine also had a "cassette" type crank/main bearing arrangement with big holes in the crankcase which carried main bearing carrier discs, not a very nice arrangement IMO. The crank+bearing discs went in from one end as an assembly IIRC. I think that was used by Rover once upon a time but not sure what was in the Jeep.

[yorkie_chris]

What a built up crank like a 2 stroke twin?

[gruntygiggles]

Here's ours tyres when they were put on 30k miles ago

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/Stretchie_/Disco/DSC00602.jpg

Still going but not quite as much tread on them now, will get a pic later. However, they are alot noisier than the tyres we took off and we also get 50 miles a tank less than with the old tyres on. Braking isn't as good nor is handling, but then that's all taken in to consideration and it does get driven accordingly


Noisy but worth it. In the last two days, they have helped enormously in towing 2 LWB transits and a renault traffic out of the driveway.

Dan just had to pull one out of a hole made by the neighbour deciding to dig ditches in front of the transits rear...meaning Dan had to get the waffle boards out for it and tow it onto the them to get going.

Waffle boards are another thing to consider if you really are at risk of getting stuck. They have been invaluable to us a few times now and you can pick them up quite cheaply...just get proper ones, not flimsy clones.

[embee]

What a built up crank like a 2 stroke twin?

No, the crank itself was normal one piece auto type design, the main bearings were mounted in large diameter doughnuts assembled round the journals, big enough so the whole thing was equal to the crank overall diameter and the assembly was inserted into the crankcase from one end. A bit like traditional car engine camshafts with big journals.

[Stu]

You don't want a 4 x 4 - you want this! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tyre-Grip-Spray-solution-safer-winter-/320624598062?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4aa6b71c2e)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tyre-Grip-Spray-solution-safer-winter-/320624598062?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4aa6b71c2e

[caz650s]

I work on Isuzu' & Subarus'

Don't buy a 3.0 Trooper ... but the older 2.8 & 3.1 versions are much better.

Don't buy an import twin turbo legacy unless you have loads of cash to keep it running ... the best off road Subarus are the earlier foresters .. permenent 4x4 & low range box.

Our garage is on Dartmoor & in the bad weather last winter all our Subaru Forester customers managed to keep their bookings !!

Having said that £1500 could get You a decent Kia Sportage .. they have selectable four wheel drive & low range much like a Landy & also have a proper seperate rail chassis like a Landy & are brilliant off road !

Have fun !

[rowdy]

I saw a Subaru attempting to drive on the local news today, only on a smidgeon of slush.....it failed, miserably! IMO utter Sh1te!
That could depend on a lot of things Dizzy, like near bald tyres or stupid size wheel tyre combo, whether the suspension has been dropped or just plain shyte driving. On the latter part, being a courier I spend a lot of time stuck in traffic jams caused by numptys that think the best way to pull away on snow/ice is to bury the loud pedal, when the best way to pull away is with no throttle and good clutch control.

As an owner of said chav mobile all I can say is that it has been superb when the going is tricky, being a WRX it actually has a slightly higher ride height than an equivalant lower spec Impreza of the same vintage and I haven't got stuck in it yet in snow or on soaking wet mud and grass.
Ok it hasn't got the ground clearance of a proper mud plugger but it has got me places and gone through snow where a lot of front/rear wheel drive cars are struggling with no fuss at all.

And they are fecking awesome when no ones looking and you want to play in the snow :D.

[gruntygiggles]

That could depend on a lot of things Dizzy, like near bald tyres or stupid size wheel tyre combo, whether the suspension has been dropped or just plain shyte driving. On the latter part, being a courier I spend a lot of time stuck in traffic jams caused by numptys that think the best way to pull away on snow/ice is to bury the loud peddle, when the best way to pull away is with no throttle and good clutch control.

As an owner of said chav mobile all I can say is that it has been superb when the going is tricky, being a WRX it actually has a slightly higher ride height than an equivalant lower spec Impreza of the same vintage and I haven't got stuck in it yet in snow or on soaking wet mud and grass.
Ok it hasn't got the ground clearance of a proper mud plugger but it has got me places and gone through snow where a lot of front/rear wheel drive cars are struggling with no fuss at all.

And they are fecking awesome when no ones looking and you want to play in the snow :D.

+1 on the clutch...best way to move your car when there is little or no traction. Also in snow or ice...if you have a grass verge and you know that there are no ditches...stick one side of the car up on that a little...you'll get loads more traction to get you going.

[_Stretchie_]

He're a little one that might help you if you have spinning wheels, it depends on your drivetrain of course.

A little explanation first for those who don't know/understand how the power gets from the engine to the wheels, and it's important to get the idea of this. The power goes from your gear box to your axle(s) via the propshaft, which then goes in to the differential (diff) on the axle(s).

The diff then takes that lengthwise (of the vehicle) rotating movement of the propshaft from the gear box and using gears it directs if widthways (of the vehicle) to the wheels.

Now, in a straight line, the power to the wheels at either end of the axle should be the same, however, when you corner the outside tyre obviously travels a further distance then the inside tyre and so has to move at a faster speed, the diff allows this to happen and gives power to the faster rotating tyre for traction.

Now that doesn't always help, for example, take the same example in the snow, one tyre starts to spin and moves faster than the other, the diff sends the power to the spinning wheel and you're going nowhere cos that's the tyre that has no grip.

Basic explanation I know but I don't think we really need to get more detailed than that.



So, if you are trying to get off your drive and one of your wheels is spinning you will be going nowhere, what you can do (and it's not guaranteed but can work well) is get your biting point, then get to where the wheels are spinning and put the brakes on a bit. Be careful, you don't want to slam the brakes on because that will make you stall, but by balancing the throttle and brakes well, you can slow down that spinning wheel and give the stationary wheel a bit of drive back and that might just get you out of trouble.

Takes practice though and not guarateed to work all the time, but what ever you do, don't do it by revving the tit's off the engine you'll only end up digging the car in, making the surface under the wheels even slippier or burning out your clutch or brakes or something.

[gruntygiggles]

Nicely explained baby!

Another one is if you are going downhill on ice and start sliding, it can help to tap the throttle, not the brakes. This short tap on the throttle can get your wheels spinning to match the speed of the car and get traction back, but don't do it if you're already moving too quickly OR if you're not confident as you really do need only a very small tap on the throttle.

As explained to Squirrel_Hunter for him to go to work this morning...the hill here is very steep so 2nd gear will be too fast. Instead, going down steep hills, be in 1st gear and if you want to be super safe...don't touch the pedals, just slowly off the clutch so you don't stall and let the engine take you down the hill safely.

Going uphill...momentum is your friend, so if you have momentum...do what you can to maintain it.

[TSM]

So, if you are trying to get off your drive and one of your wheels is spinning you will be going nowhere, what you can do (and it's not guaranteed but can work well) is get your biting point, then get to where the wheels are spinning and put the brakes on a bit. Be careful, you don't want to slam the brakes on because that will make you stall, but by balancing the throttle and brakes well, you can slow down that spinning wheel and give the stationary wheel a bit of drive back and that might just get you out of trouble.

Takes practice though and not guarateed to work all the time, but what ever you do, don't do it by revving the tit's off the engine you'll only end up digging the car in, making the surface under the wheels even slippier or burning out your clutch or brakes or something.

btw, this is starting to work less on modern cars as they dont allow both pedels brake/accel to be pressed at the same time, if you do on some cars you find the car drops to idle

[_Stretchie_]

btw, this is starting to work less on modern cars as they dont allow both pedels brake/accel to be pressed at the same time, if you do on some cars you find the car drops to idle

2 things:

1: Really? That's strange, some sort of saftey measure maybe? Lucky for me I'm poor and only have old cars

:D

2: I LOVE your avatars. Keep up the good work ;)

[andrewsmith]

2 things:

1: Really? That's strange, some sort of saftey measure maybe? Lucky for me I'm poor and only have old cars

:D

2: I LOVE your avatars. Keep up the good work ;)

1: Yep my old mans car loathes the snow and the old techniques do that.
Renaults stall trying to do things it deems unsafe.

2: TSM do you do the photography? Love the work

[Lozzo]

As an owner of said chav mobile all I can say is that it has been superb when the going is tricky, being a WRX it actually has a slightly higher ride height than an equivalant lower spec Impreza of the same vintage and I haven't got stuck in it yet in snow or on soaking wet mud and grass.
Ok it hasn't got the ground clearance of a proper mud plugger but it has got me places and gone through snow where a lot of front/rear wheel drive cars are struggling with no fuss at all.

And they are fecking awesome when no ones looking and you want to play in the snow :D.

A couple of winters ago I bought and sold a few Mitsubishi Evos, all of them were driven to Austria in appalling weather conditions, and none of them had any real trouble coping with the ice and snow on Bavarian roads. When you've got at least 275bhp to play with you've got to be a bit gentle and smooth, as well as careful, and that's how you make safe progress in bad conditions

[2hys]

+1.
M+S tyres are fine when the temperature is fairly high, but the advantage with winter tyres (either ice or snow) is the compound is designed to stay soft, and most have abrasive additives in to provide additional grip.

As above, the two key design features of true winter tyres are the compound (start to see the benefits below about 10C I believe, but gets very significant below 0C) and the tread block design. The grooves (sipes) between the blocks are much bigger to cater for water dispersal and to allow snow to pack in which gives friction with the snow surface, but the multiple fine slits in the blocks make them very flexible so as the tyre leaves the road it deflects and the snow falls out again so they don't become smooth cylinders like summer tyres do.

The 2 downsides to them in my experience is that in dry reasonably warm weather (like you can get sometimes, remember then?) the grip is not that good so often get wheelspin pulling away from junctions, and they do feel a little wobbly compared to summer tyres, but you soon learn to compensate. The benefits definitely outweigh the disadvantages in the cold.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh268/Hi-vis/IMG_3799Small-1.jpg

i like the idea of winter tyres,
was going to look into a 4x4, i know of a 4x4 mondao going cheap, but only bought our zafira 3 months ago! one question.... would i just be wasting my time with just fitting the tyres on the front or is it better to get all four?

[gruntygiggles]

i like the idea of winter tyres,
was going to look into a 4x4, i know of a 4x4 mondao going cheap, but only bought our zafira 3 months ago! one question.... would i just be wasting my time with just fitting the tyres on the front or is it better to get all four?


If that's where the drive is, it will be better than standard tyres.

IMHO, it's best to get on ebay and pick up a cheap set of spare wheels and have winter tyres fitted to those...even some remoulds are brilliant nowadays and more cost effective. That way, when you get bad weather, you don't need to change tyres, just a case of swapping the wheels over, which you can do at home for nothing with a decent jack.