Poverty

[tigersaw]

Pretty surprised to hear how many children live in poverty in the UK this morning on breakfast TV.
Thats until I heard the definition of poverty:

Poverty is defined by the Government as ‘household income below 60 percent of median income’. The median is the income earned by the household in the middle of the income distribution.

The definition goes further to say that in 2004/2005, this 60% threshold was defined as a sum of £183 per week for a family of two, after tax, mortgage, water etc.

WTF? When I was a kid we lived in a cottage with no heat, a single cold tap and a belfast sink, no fridge, outside dunny etc.
However, I would never had considered that poverty, I had shoes on my feet, food to eat and a school to go to.

I guess we need a new word to define the kids in Africa in 'poverty', since our definition is the lap of luxury to them.

[Dicky Ticker]

Not just children,the number of old people who live below the poverty level is immense,probably greater than the number of children.
Rates ,gas,electric and rents have all gone up but they are stuck on a fixed income
and that is in this country.
Perhaps if our government considered its own house first instead of trying to prove that we are still a rich nation and can afford wars and generosity we would be able to provide better internal security,student grants,medical services and many other things.
I may be hard hearted in this but Africa amongst other nations would still survive if left to the laws of nature.Western interference has caused nearly all of the problems and we never hear how the billions of pounds of aid have ever done any good apart from providing them with arms.---------views of a disillusioned cynic

[Ed]

DT - you only say what everyone else thinks. We spend an absolute fortune on overseas aid.

In the last financial year, ie 2009 - 2010 -

£215m to Ethiopia - corrupt
£67m to Zimbabwe - corrupt, Mugabe, no regard for human rights
£30m to Somalia - no functioning government, bunch of pirates and murderers
£66m to Uganda - WHY??????
£103m to Kenya - corrupt
£295m to India - nuclear and space power
£140m to Pakistan - ditto, also corrupt according to WikliLeaks
£58m to Nepal - oppressed by CHina
£40m to China - one of the richest nations on Earth, no regard for human rights
£25m to Burma - corrupt and brutal military dictatorship

...and on and on goes the gravy train. There's a shedload more too, and then there is all the private sector and charitable support.

Don't believe me? I have just lifted these astonishing figures from the website of the Department For International Development. Not one of the UK Government's better known departments, rather odd that given its spend.

And the local authority here in Liverpool where I work (probably not for much longer) has just had a 9% grant cut this year, with more promised for the following three years.

[Stu]

Not just children,the number of old people who live below the poverty level is immense,probably greater than the number of children.
Rates ,gas,electric and rents have all gone up but they are stuck on a fixed income
and that is in this country.
Perhaps if our government considered its own house first instead of trying to prove that we are still a rich nation and can afford wars and generosity we would be able to provide better internal security,student grants,medical services and many other things.
I may be hard hearted in this but Africa amongst other nations would still survive if left to the laws of nature.Western interference has caused nearly all of the problems and we never hear how the billions of pounds of aid have ever done any good apart from providing them with arms.---------views of a disillusioned cynic
Read the OP!
He says that people in "Poverty" are not poor
now back on topic :)

[Dicky Ticker]

If you mean I as a pensioner am well off compared to Africa or India probably yes but in comparison to western european standards I would beg to differ-----could you live on £100 per week?----no where near average income but with the same costs.

[Gabriel2k]

Charity should start at home.

[Specialone]

I agree with OP, When my dad died in 1978, my mom worked 3 jobs and still hardly had a pot to p1ss in, poverty my ass.
My family would have thought we was well off if we had the disposable income of some of the so called poverty stricken.
We survived and there isnt really a reason why the majority of others cant either considering how much help the government gives now compared to the 70's.

[yorkie_chris]

a sum of £183 per week for a family of two, after tax, mortgage, water etc.

So that's £183 to spend on transport, food, clothing?

Seems a pretty retarded idea of poverty, I'm pretty sure I know a lot of people who have less than that to spend once they've paid out those expenses.

Considering I used to be able to feed myself for a week on about £15. (plus baccy and beer obviously)

[Ed]

So that's £183 to spend on transport, food, clothing?

Seems a pretty retarded idea of poverty, I'm pretty sure I know a lot of people who have less than that to spend once they've paid out those expenses.

Considering I used to be able to feed myself for a week on about £15. (plus baccy and beer obviously)

I couldn't, I don't like beans on toast;)

[jambo]

I couldn't, I don't like beans on toast;)
Let me introduce you to Lidl pasta and jars of pasta sauce. Kept me going when I was on my placement year and brassic.

Jambo

[Tim in Belgium]

I raise you value Tesco Kievs, I think they were about 79p for two, my University staple for two years. I still smell of processed garlic.

[Milky Bar Kid]

When I was growing up we lived in a rented house, no heating, only a coal fire, no double glazing. My brother and I always had clean clothes and shoes on our feet and dinner on the table. Mum and Dad didn't have that amount of money to spend after their other outgoings but I certainly didn't think this was "poverty".

[Specialone]

Well it was that cold in my house when i was a kid that the flame on my dads lighter froze, in the summer.

[Biker Biggles]

Luxury.
Now we had it tough-----------

[Teejayexc]

WhenI were a kid, me and me 10 brothers and sisters had to sleep in't cardboard box on top of't wardrobe. Had to be up by 4.00am 4hrs afore I went to bed and walk 30 miles barefoot over broken glass to work a 72hr shift down't coalmine......

[Dicky Ticker]

If you all believe what is being said I will give you one bit of advice-----
MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A DECENT PRIVATE PENSION

[keith_d]

If you all believe what is being said I will give you one bit of advice-----
MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A DECENT PRIVATE PENSION

And pray that it will still be there when you come to collect it. My concerns are:

1) Pretty much all pensions including mine are invested in the stock market. That's one of the reasons share prices keep ahead of inflation, more and more pension money chasing a fixed pool of assets.

2) By the time I want to take my pension millions of baby boomers will be taking money out of the stock markets to pay their pensions. What will that do to the value of the shares held in my pension?

3) The government will also need to pay millions of civil service pensions and they haven't made any investments at all. So they will be looking to raid our pensions to meet their bills.

Will we'll look back at todays pensioners with envy in 25 years time??

Discuss.

[thefallenangel]

When a man can't earn a wage to keep a 2 child family in reasonable standard you know something is wrong.

[tigersaw]

When a man can't earn a wage to keep a 2 child family in reasonable standard you know something is wrong.

problem is that people today believe that foreign holidays, sky tv, xboxes and two cars are reasonable standard

[thefallenangel]

Well a take home wage of £1500 after you take away £700 for a 3 bed house (or 2 in some cases) leaves you with not much after you take away gas, electric, water, council tax, food let alone clothing, vehicle and some form of enjoyment.

[Ed]

problem is that people today believe that foreign holidays, sky tv, xboxes and two cars are reasonable standard

It rains too much in England so you have to go to Spain. Sky TV - the BBC is crap. Xbox - well you can't wank all day, can you? Two cars - public transportation is atrocious and anyway is full of disease-ridden people who cough and sneeze everywhere.

Not so luxurious really is it;)

[keith_d]

Well a take home wage of £1500 after you take away £700 for a 3 bed house (or 2 in some cases) leaves you with not much after you take away gas, electric, water, council tax, food let alone clothing, vehicle and some form of enjoyment.

Around London it's even worse:

Rental on a two bedroom house in Ruislip £900/month
Monthly travelcard to go to work £100/month
Council tax £100/month

That leaves you £100/week for bills, food, clothes, etc.

£1500/month is roughly £25k/year before tax. So if you're on the national median wage in London you're living in poverty. Crazy isn't it.

[thefallenangel]

and think most shop workers will earn 15k. I as of January will be earning 27k which if i want any sort of family will probably have to spend the next 6 years till i'm 29 attacking my mortgage to have any sort of life. Surely not right?

Oh and for that 27k before anyone says its loads isnt for a eleccy. and that includes 26 hours o/t a month and a week on call every 6.

[tom-k6]

its about time this country stopped giving handouts to other countries willy-nilly, we havent got anything to give to our own people let alone other countries people.

and anyway, if africa is in dire poverty and whatnot, and everyone will die unless we give them £2 a month or whatever, how did they cope before? im pretty sure they were alrite before and will be alrite after.

sounds harsh and cold but......natural selection is the only way humanity will survive, never hear of overcrowding in a pride of lions or herd of buffalo,

[yorkie_chris]

its about time this country stopped giving handouts to other countries willy-nilly, we havent got anything to give to our own people let alone other countries people.

and anyway, if africa is in dire poverty and whatnot, and everyone will die unless we give them £2 a month or whatever, how did they cope before? im pretty sure they were alrite before and will be alrite after.

sounds harsh and cold but......natural selection is the only way humanity will survive, never hear of overcrowding in a pride of lions or herd of buffalo,

It is a bit cold to say but "save a childs life for £2 a month"... what, so they can starve to death as an adult instead?
Just supporting a population spiralling out of the food to support it :(

[Gabriel2k]

If you get accosted on the street by one of those charity people that sign you up to pay monthly, the 1st 2 years of you paying actually goes to pay them!

Plus when your money is actually going to "help" people only something like 10p actually gets through to the people that need it!

[Ed]

If you get accosted on the street by one of those charity people that sign you up to pay monthly, the 1st 2 years of you paying actually goes to pay them!

Plus when your money is actually going to "help" people only something like 10p actually gets through to the people that need it!

Produce your evidence please.

[Specialone]

It is a bit cold to say but "save a childs life for £2 a month"... what, so they can starve to death as an adult instead?
Just supporting a population spiralling out of the food to support it :(

The biggest problem Chris is the money doesnt go directly to food in their mouths half the time, there is a lot of corrupted 'official' people in third world countries who could easily lessen the poverty and starvation in their countries but choose to spend on their own wealth and luxuries.
The money goes missing altogether in some cases.
I know its not a popular outlook but they would have better chance of survival and sustainability if birth control was enforced.
Starving parents bringing 10 children into the world are only gonna end up one way, starving as well.

[Specialone]

Produce your evidence please.

I read some time ago that cancer research (i know unrelated) actually only 26% goes to what it should, the rest is their overheads, so im sure this stuff does go, like i said in my other post, if any officials get involved in the transfer of money to these countries, do you believe it all gets there?

[Lozzo]

If you all believe what is being said I will give you one bit of advice-----
MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A DECENT PRIVATE PENSION

Just one?

I spread my investments, and not much of my money is in the UK either

[tigersaw]

Produce your evidence please.

My G/F got chugged in the street for £15 p/m for a charity that helps children abroad.
I downloaded their accounts out of interest, amazing how many directors there are, all earning 80k for their consultations.

[Dicky Ticker]

Lozzo thats cos you is an alien:)

[Ed]

My G/F got chugged in the street for £15 p/m for a charity that helps children abroad.
I downloaded their accounts out of interest, amazing how many directors there are, all earning 80k for their consultations.

Please identify it.

[Gabriel2k]

Produce your evidence please.

It was on a Panorama type programme a few years back, just stuck in my mind since then.

[dizzyblonde]

I'm skint!

[Dicky Ticker]

Yeh!

[yorkie_chris]

The biggest problem Chris is the money doesnt go directly to food in their mouths half the time,

And even if it did, what would it do? Increase the survival rate, increase the population. All of a sudden the same food supply (aid from us) doesn't cover it. Send more aid!

Only way I can see it will work is to support sustainable (yeah yeah I used that word :smt092) farming in rural areas. There is no success to be found in supporting slums. And impose sanctions on any regimes dipping their fingers in pot, do any aid distribution under Brit supervision, any bent official doesn't like it, shoot them. The whole problem starts from a bunch of hippies have some stupid guilt that we used to own half the world and that somehow makes it our problem.

[Dicky Ticker]

They demanded independence and got it so let them get on with it.
In former Rhodesia when they kicked the farmers out instead of moving into the farms and continuing farming, they took up all the crops,burnt every bit of wood they could find for cooking fires and wrecked all the farm houses and outbuildings,contaminated the fresh water wells----not to mention the numbers of white people murdered.

There may be some well educated people in these countries but they are looking after number one with all the aid supplied and the remainder left to fend for themselves.
I was out there twice while this was going on and saw the evidence with my own eyes and the same happened while in Nigeria so I have no sympathy

[anna]

And pray that it will still be there when you come to collect it. My concerns are:

1) Pretty much all pensions including mine are invested in the stock market. That's one of the reasons share prices keep ahead of inflation, more and more pension money chasing a fixed pool of assets.

2) By the time I want to take my pension millions of baby boomers will be taking money out of the stock markets to pay their pensions. What will that do to the value of the shares held in my pension?

3) The government will also need to pay millions of civil service pensions and they haven't made any investments at all. So they will be looking to raid our pensions to meet their bills.

Will we'll look back at todays pensioners with envy in 25 years time??

Discuss.

I thought that the pension stocks were related to the bad assets and so with the financial down turn the government used it as a good way of selling those assets on at a lower return, so the pension pot that was there is a lot less then the money first invested (from what I understand please feel free to correct me.)??

Any pension scheme is essentially a pyramid scheme and so obviously isnt going to hold up when the baby boomers come through to collect their portion of the pie. How the government has addressed this has yet to come forward.

People who hold private pensions are no better off then those with public held ones, as they are being penalised for having them in the first place. (Not sure if the law has changed on this now).

It is one more of the short sightedness of future investments, the energy efficiency promises being the other. There is the probability that conversions to the power plants wont be able to be finished in time to meet the promises made. This means that there is a real possibility of there being "brown outs" happening in the future, as the power suppliers will have a quota they are allowed to give out per day/week.

Who is likely to pay for that.... look at your electricity bills now for the answer, and then expect to see additional costs added between now and 2030.

[Ed]

The whole problem starts from a bunch of hippies have some stupid guilt that we used to own half the world and that somehow makes it our problem.

Common humanity has nothing to do with it?

And yet, even though I'm a tree hugging liberal, I can't help but agree with you:o

[yorkie_chris]

Common humanity has nothing to do with it?

I don't see what you mean there, I'm all for saving lives and creating a better standard of living in these countries, just not in the way of handouts.

[Ed]

I don't see what you mean there, I'm all for saving lives and creating a better standard of living in these countries, just not in the way of handouts.

Sorry Chris, I didn't read the post properly:rolleyes: