Should I have stayed out of this?

[ravingdavis]

On my way home from work today I stopped off to get some milk, while walking to the shop I noticed a woman get out of a car. As I walked passed said car I heard crying and noticed that two young kids has been left behind, one was about 5 or 6 and the other was only a little baby. The baby was making some noise and the window of the car had been left open. I had seen the woman walk into a KFC out of line of sight of her car.

As I had rode into the car park I had noticed a police car parked around the corner and I decided to tell them what I had just seen, ie, 2 unattended minors left in a car with windows open etc where their mum couldn't see them. Police attended and I carried on with my business. On my way back out of the shop woman is stood their shouting at the police telling them amongst other things that it is none of their business etc etc.

My question is: Was I right to get the police involved or have I been way too touchy and should have kept out of it?

Edit: Sorry for the title error, seems I am unable to correct it :(

[beabert]

Young children, unlocked car with windows open. Id say yes you did the correct thing.

[gruntygiggles]

That's a difficult one. Imagine the daily routine of the mother of a 5-6 year old and a baby, running around like a blue rrrsed fly, trying to get everything done, needing a snack on the run and you'll realise it could have been just an innocent "slip" in concentration by a very good mum.

I think in the same circumstances, I would have just kept an eye on the car from close by and done something if needed, but if the mother left them for a significant amount of time, i.e. genuinely neglectful, then yes, I probably would have asked the police to step in. I wouldn't want to get in the middle of it myself.

[cluffy]

Id reckon that was most deffo the right thing to do, she might have been a bit irate with the officers but i wonder how shed've felt if some kiddie snatcher was about and when she returned to the car there were no kids there.
If id've seen it id prob enter stupid quandry mode thinking 'should i tell the bobbies round the corner' - 'should i tell the mother in kfc' - 'should i just sit here 5 mins and make sure there alright' and by the time i decided what to do the mother would be back and down the road.

[Ed]

Madeleine McCann's parents probably wish they had kept a better watch.

You have nothing to beat yourself up about.

[gruntygiggles]

Madeleine McCann's parents probably wish they had kept a better watch.

You have nothing to beat yourself up about.

Going to dinner leaving kids unsupervised in an apartment in a foreign country is a bit different to running into KFC, but I do get your point.

Ravingdavies...I think it's one of those things whereby your actions took away all risk of anything going wrong and that is never a bad thing.

[kellyjo]

My kids are 5, 8 and 11 and i've only just started leaving them in the car unnattended if the eldest is present as she's got a very sensible head on her. If it was the two youngest i'd still be reluctant to leave them as if they were approached or something happened they wouldnt know what to do.

Better to be safe than sorry imho!

[Bluepete]

You did the right thing, but the Bobbies were probably cursing you!

There they were, havin a quiet KFC and someone sends them into an argument. After all, who likes their parenting skills criticised?

Don't fret, your conscience is clear!

Pete ;)

[ravingdavis]

Cheers guys.

It's just one of those things where in an ideal world you should be able to leave your kids in the car without fear but personally I don't think that in our world you can. I cannot call anyone's parenting skills into question because I have no idea what it is like being a parent but the thing that would pray on my mind is what would happen if the next person that heard the kids in the car had less than honourable intentions.

[Speedy Claire]

I`d have probably done the same as you... how often do we hear of cars being stolen with young children in the back? it only takes a split second to steal the car. I do agree that sometimes the stresses and strains of everyday life with young children can grind you down but at the end of the day we have a duty of care to our children 24 hours a day and their safety should be paramount.

[Bluefish]

Yeah well done mate, defo the right thing to do.

[svdemon]

Why didn't she go for a drive through? Problem solved

[2hys]

heard a story once, think it was on the vine show on radio 2-

perent was poping in to a corner shop on the way home, went to leave there kid a 3 year old straped in its car seat as they was about to lock the car, they decided to take the kid with them...... .....on returning to the car they found the car to have what looked like tinted windows.. it was black smoke! and with that went up in flames!! the car had a short in the ingnition, the car was replaced under insurence.... thankfully they took ther kid out, cus i hear insurence cant replace your kids.

just some food for thought

[Stig]

Yeah you did the right thing in my opinion. I would have done exactly the same thing. Had the police not been there I think I would have just hovered around until the parent returned. Just to be sure. Would probably not have approached her directly as that I don't think would have resolved anything. But at least I would have known the kids were safe. This time anyway.

[BoltonSte]

Personally I think it was the right thing, we were at the hospital the other day and parked next to a car with kids (it was abot 7 so dark) and no parents, the wife was about to jot down the reg to inform security when the dad turned up. We couldn't see him at one of the machines in the gloom.

My wife did something similar to my 6month old...Oh this is a good one.

She unlocked the Golf, opened the rear door, chucked the keys onto the drivers seat, put the new tropical fish in the footwell (had hold of him at the time) put him in his car seat. Closed door and went round to drivers side...door was locked, weird, but no worries I'll just reach past him and get the keys...his door locked.

So a teary phone call later and I was tear arsing from work on the bike to get the spare and get to her.

Not as bad as leaving him in any sense, but it just gave me the opening I needed to let everyone know about her blonde moment (she keeps the keys with her now)

Ste

[-Ralph-]

Absolutely you did the right thing IMO.

Were the windows open far enough to let someone get their hands in, or were they just open my an inch to let air circulate? Somebody on the thread mentioned 'unlocked car' but I note your OP doesn't mention this. Do you know if the car was locked or unlocked? What age, make and model of car was it? Did the parent definitely leave line of sight with the vehicle for more than a few moments?

If it were just the baby then not such an issue because they are strapped into a baby seat and basically can't bring themselves to any harm, but I would still ensure the car was secure and locked, not in hot weather, and never let my eyes off the car for more than a few seconds in a public place, or check every minute or so if the car was on my own driveway.

A 5-6 year old? OK, maybe the car has deadlocks and electric windows, so without the car keys the kid can't go anywhere. But they could still move around and come to harm inside the car. If the design of the car is such that they could get out, that's seriously dangerous. You can't trust a child that age.

[dizzyblonde]

Dunno really. But then I leave my nine year old in the car with baby if I need to nip in somewhere. If a baby is strapped in a car seat by the time someone has tried to steal him, number one son will have punched someone in the face, and he'll have run off crying!

[-Ralph-]

Had the police not been there I think I would have just hovered around until the parent returned. Just to be sure. Would probably not have approached her directly as that I don't think would have resolved anything. But at least I would have known the kids were safe. This time anyway.

+1, but depending on the circumstances and the answers to my questions above, I may not have been keeping my mouth shut, and I might have been taking photographs.

[-Ralph-]

Closed door and went round to drivers side...door was locked, weird, but no worries I'll just reach past him and get the keys...his door locked.

I think most parents have done that including my wife, given the keys to the child to play with, and as soon as you shut the door to walk round the other side, the kid presses the button and locks the whole car. At least you are there so see they are OK and if worst comes to the worst you can smash the glass.

[Specialone]

Dave i think you've already answered this yourself, 100% right imo to do what you did, far easier on the conscience than doing nothing then something happens to the kids.
For all you know the mother could have had depression and just buggered off with no intention of coming back once she got her KFC, i know its unlikely but still a possible.
The end result was she got a bit annoyed and the police got some abuse, but more importantly the kids were fine so all good.
Good work old chum :)

[dizzyblonde]

Ralph.....are you a grumpy fart??

[Specialone]

Ralph.....are you a grumpy fart??

Er, yes he is :), not quite upto my standards but getting there.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Dunno really. But then I leave my nine year old in the car with baby if I need to nip in somewhere. If a baby is strapped in a car seat by the time someone has tried to steal him, number one son will have punched someone in the face, and he'll have run off crying!

Don't think leaving a 9 yr old in a car with a baby is anything to be overly concerned about, cos like you said, he is old enough and wise enough to know if something is going wrong and likely to tackle the threat.

However, I think the OP did the right thing because at 5 yr old, I'm not convinced a child is wary enough of dangers.

[ravingdavis]

. Do you know if the car was locked or unlocked? What age, make and model of car was it? Did the parent definitely leave line of sight with the vehicle for more than a few moments?


No idea if the car was locked or not. Looked like quite an old Golf. Mother left line of sight for certain, unsure of the amount of time she was out of line of sight because I returned to my business once I alerted the police but I suspect long enough to queue up and buy some KFC in a moderately busy restaurant. I was in the shop for at least 5 minutes and when I left she was talking to the police.

Someone mentioned she could use the drive through, there is no drive through for this particular restaurant.

[appollo1]

you certainly did the right thing Dave.

She may have been doing this lots of times and not even thought of the consequences so maybe and hopefully the police having a word with her after she calmed down is enough for her to realise what could have happened and the seriousness of what could have happened if the wrong type of person was around.

[CoolGirl]

You did what anyone else with a conscience would have done - I've done the same myself in the past. I parked the car in Sainsbury's car park and noticed that there is a small child (about 3) and a small dog in the adjacent car, unsupervised. I hung about a bit, but no sign of an adult. meanwhile the child is openig and closing the windows - so clealry the car is powered-up.

I took down the reg no, ran into the store and asked the stor staff to put out an announcement. They refused. I then asked them to call the police. Again they refused, so I got my mobile out and called themmyself. I stood with the car until the police arrived - a good 10 mins. At that point, the mother arrived with a full trolley and 2 other, slightly older kids in tow.:confused: I told the police what I'd seen, and the mother's response was "Well, he wasn't supposed to be doing that":eek:. At that point, I decided to leave them to it in case she got nasty, but I could hear the Police giving her a rollocking.

If I hadn't spotted the child and taken action, what might have happened? At best, he might have let the handbrake off and rolled the car into the one in front. At worst, someone might have taken advantage of the situation and stolen the car with the child in it (this was Tottenham, after all).

[-Ralph-]

Looked like quite an old Golf

So probably nothing stopping the 5-6 yr old getting out and playing with the traffic!

I sometimes wonder whether people should be sterilised at birth and then have to apply to have it reversed when they want kids.

I'm not sure that if the police didn't prosecute that she wouldn't do it again. Some people are so bloody minded that they won't listen to advice from anyone. If they think they have done nothing wrong, then they see no reason why they shouldn't do it again.

[-Ralph-]

Ralph.....are you a grumpy fart??

Dizzyblonde has to ask! :D

Now there's a northern lass that speaks my language ;)

Grumpy Fart loves you Dizzy! :mrgreen:

[21QUEST]

......snip....

My question is: Was I right to get the police involved or have I been way too touchy and should have kept out of it?
......snip...

Going by what you've narrated, it does sound like, you probably should have kept out of it.

In todays world, my Ma would probably have been reported by a 'concerned someone' for leaving minors 'home alone' . I suppose, she could have gone on the dole to keep a host of people and Agencies happy :D

As an aside, anyhoos, a few people don't get involved when they probably should and on the other hand, get involved when they probably shouldn't.

[-Ralph-]

Going by what you've narrated, it does sound like, you probably should have kept out of it.

In todays world, my Ma would probably have been reported by a 'concerned someone' for leaving minors 'home alone' . I suppose, she could have gone on the dole to keep a host of people and Agencies happy :D

As an aside, anyhoos, a few people don't get involved when they probably should and on the other hand, get involved when they probably shouldn't.

Well, respect for posting what you think and putting your head above the parapet anyway.

[MisterTommyH]

It's up to your concience really.

I wouldn't have any problem with what you did. Either that or stay in the area, at a distance to satisfy yourself that nothing bad was going to happen.

How would you have felt if you'd done nothing and something had happened?

[Ed]

Perhaps they are vile kids and she positively wanted the car stolen to save her having to get the kids taken into care:D

[Lozzo]

I'd have taken the kids for a walk round the corner for a few minutes to scare the mum into realising how bloody stupid she was.

[Lozzo]

thankfully they took ther kid out, cus i hear insurence cant replace your kids.



It only takes between 30 seconds and 2 hours to make a new child... so I hear.

[hongman]

My son is 5 and I'd never leave him in the car alone for any amount of time. Apart from the obvious, I wouldnt have much of a car to come back to knowing him.

[Biker Biggles]

No comment on this particular case as I wasnt there,but as a general observation I think we are way too overprotective of kids compared to when I was young.There seems to be a national paranoia of "what ifs" going on when kids actually need to learn to fend for themselves as much as possible from as young as possible.
Still i suppose you cant be too careful,and you just never know what dangers lurk

[appollo1]

I'd have taken the kids for a walk round the corner for a few minutes to scare the mum into realising how bloody stupid she was.


then you would have to explain to your family why you are on the sex offenders register for abducting a child

[2hys]

It only takes between 30 seconds and 2 hours to make a new child... so I hear.

try 4 years of heartache..

[Speedy Claire]

No comment on this particular case as I wasnt there,but as a general observation I think we are way too overprotective of kids compared to when I was young.There seems to be a national paranoia of "what ifs" going on when kids actually need to learn to fend for themselves as much as possible from as young as possible.
Still i suppose you cant be too careful,and you just never know what dangers lurk


Sorry but I disagree with you on this. The above might have been relevant many years ago but sadly I think today`s society dictates the need to be overly protective of our children.

Until a child is old enough to fully understand and is able to (to some extent) protect themselves from harm then we as parents have a duty to minimise those risks.

[tactcom7]

Sorry but I disagree with you on this. The above might have been relevant many years ago but sadly I think today`s society dictates the need to be overly protective of our children.

Do you really think todays society is any worse than before? Or is it that incidents are just more wildly reported these days. Kids are far too molly coddled I think, don't do this don't do that or go there, don't eat that etc, how many people had peanut allergies fifty years ago?
Kids need to eat mud, scrape knees, climb trees and go out and have fun. Not live wrapped up in cotton wool.

[2hys]

Do you really think todays society is any worse than before? Or is it that incidents are just more wildly reported these days. Kids are far too molly coddled I think, don't do this don't do that or go there, don't eat that etc, how many people had peanut allergies fifty years ago?
Kids need to eat mud, scrape knees, climb trees and go out and have fun. Not live wrapped up in cotton wool.

we need "like" buttons at the bottom of peeps posts

:thumbsup:

[hongman]

Do you really think todays society is any worse than before? Or is it that incidents are just more wildly reported these days. Kids are far too molly coddled I think, don't do this don't do that or go there, don't eat that etc, how many people had peanut allergies fifty years ago?
Kids need to eat mud, scrape knees, climb trees and go out and have fun. Not live wrapped up in cotton wool.


I agree with this. I'm only 26 and already I see today's teens and how things have changed in a short decade.

But IMO this is completely irrelevant to the OP. What the OP described was just blatent neglect.

[Quiff Wichard]

bob on the right thing.. well done you

[Speedy Claire]

Do you really think todays society is any worse than before? Or is it that incidents are just more wildly reported these days. Kids are far too molly coddled I think, don't do this don't do that or go there, don't eat that etc, how many people had peanut allergies fifty years ago?
Kids need to eat mud, scrape knees, climb trees and go out and have fun. Not live wrapped up in cotton wool.

If you want to go down that line of thought then yes I do think today`s society is far worse than when I was growing up. Growing up used to be less traumatic just a few decades ago and has become more violent and more dangerous for children.

I took these statistics from the NSPCC website....

One in six youths between the ages of 10 and 17 has seen or knows someone who has been shot.

The estimated number of child abuse victims increased 40% between 1985 and 1997.

Children under 18 are 244% more likely to be killed by guns in 1993 than they were in 1986.

Violent crime has increased by more than 560% since 1960.


The innocence of childhood has been replaced by the very real threat of violence. Years ago most children played out unsupervised, we were free to go on adventures far from home, climb trees and scrape our knees but this has today largely vanished. I feel that parents are more fearful for their kids and that stops the freedom of innocence and risk ie. the adventures/risks we took when we were younger and growing up. Because that freedom of innocence has been taken away it can lead to increased anti social behaviour as children rebel thus leading to higher crime rates.

Kids in school try to avoid fights in the playground and sometimes walk home in fear. When I grew up people had fights but they were just fist fights with maybe the occasional brick used etc. From the 1990`s kids started to carry knifes and in some cases guns, if there was a fight someone could get stabbed or shot. In some areas of the country schools now sell stab proof school uniforms!!!!!

Another thing to consider is that there are more people today in the free world and that equals an increased threat of crime/danger. Also years ago it was common practice to have extended families whereby families all lived within close proximity of each other and would keep an eye out for their own, that isn`t so common today.

I don`t doubt that media coverage has played some part in encouraging parents to be more aware and more protective but I feel that there are real risks to children that weren`t there when I was growing up.

[tactcom7]

If you want to go down that line of thought then yes I do think today`s society is far worse than when I was growing up. Growing up used to be less traumatic just a few decades ago and has become more violent and more dangerous for children.

I took these statistics from the NSPCC website....

One in six youths between the ages of 10 and 17 has seen or knows someone who has been shot.

The estimated number of child abuse victims increased 40% between 1985 and 1997.

Children under 18 are 244% more likely to be killed by guns in 1993 than they were in 1986.

Violent crime has increased by more than 560% since 1960.


The innocence of childhood has been replaced by the very real threat of violence. Years ago most children played out unsupervised, we were free to go on adventures far from home, climb trees and scrape our knees but this has today largely vanished. I feel that parents are more fearful for their kids and that stops the freedom of innocence and risk ie. the adventures/risks we took when we were younger and growing up. Because that freedom of innocence has been taken away it can lead to increased anti social behaviour as children rebel thus leading to higher crime rates.

Kids in school try to avoid fights in the playground and sometimes walk home in fear. When I grew up people had fights but they were just fist fights with maybe the occasional brick used etc. From the 1990`s kids started to carry knifes and in some cases guns, if there was a fight someone could get stabbed or shot. In some areas of the country schools now sell stab proof school uniforms!!!!!

Another thing to consider is that there are more people today in the free world and that equals an increased threat of crime/danger. Also years ago it was common practice to have extended families whereby families all lived within close proximity of each other and would keep an eye out for their own, that isn`t so common today.

I don`t doubt that media coverage has played some part in encouraging parents to be more aware and more protective but I feel that there are real risks to children that weren`t there when I was growing up.

I'm not sure where the NSPCC gets their stats from but 1 in 6 youths has seen or knows someone who has been shot? Really? I think not. At least not where I live. Same goes for the rest of those statistics.
I think it's unfair to derail this thread any further. Perhaps we should start another entitled 'Then and Now'.

[fenjer]

I'm on the fence with this one.

In one respect - the one everyone has jumped on - the "what if's" of the situation make this a potentially dangerous situation in many ways. And I agree, but look at it from the other side of the coin...

Only one person - I think GG - mentioned the fact that she's got a 5/6year old, and a baby, probably a busy day etc etc.

Perhaps she was getting out that car to stop herself losing her temper with her kids? Perhaps someone had just almost involved her in an accident? Maybe she was running in to check if KFC had baby changing facilities?
Perhaps the kid had been whinging at her that he wanted something to eat, perhaps her husband is in hospital and she had to grab something to eat on the way there...

There is so much you don't know about any given situation.

Personally I'd have just hung around for a minute or two to see if the kids were ok and that she was coming back, I think telling the police was a tad much, but if it eased your conscience then thats all that matters.

[gruntygiggles]

I'm on the fence with this one.

In one respect - the one everyone has jumped on - the "what if's" of the situation make this a potentially dangerous situation in many ways. And I agree, but look at it from the other side of the coin...

Only one person - I think GG - mentioned the fact that she's got a 5/6year old, and a baby, probably a busy day etc etc.

Perhaps she was getting out that car to stop herself losing her temper with her kids? Perhaps someone had just almost involved her in an accident? Maybe she was running in to check if KFC had baby changing facilities?
Perhaps the kid had been whinging at her that he wanted something to eat, perhaps her husband is in hospital and she had to grab something to eat on the way there...

There is so much you don't know about any given situation.

Personally I'd have just hung around for a minute or two to see if the kids were ok and that she was coming back, I think telling the police was a tad much, but if it eased your conscience then thats all that matters.


You said it better than I could :-)

[yorkie_chris]

I took these statistics from the NSPCC website....

One in six youths between the ages of 10 and 17 has seen or knows someone who has been shot.

Yeah right, maybe if you're including "oh yeah my cousins best mates mom was nearly shot in a drive by... er... but it was a BB gun, and they missed" type incidents.
How many people get shot a year? If you believe that stat then basically there must be a firefight in every classroom.

They need to separate the gun crime stats into categories of "actual gun crime" and "hippy gun crime", as in "coke dealing yardie monkey mows down rival and passerby with an uzi" and "in possession of a 0.2ft lb plastic BB gun with intent to dent cans" as they're offences of pretty different gravity.

Hell fire, loads of us were shot as kids, generally by each other with airguns. Didn't see the NSPCC asking us about it :-({|=
And digging a .22 out of your *rse cheek f***ing hurts!!

[TamSV]

The NSPCC are being a bit naughty with those stats.

Look at the wording of their claim on gun crime - kids were more likely to be killed by guns in 1993 than 1986. That's only comparing two years but why did they pick those particular years for gun crime? Because it suits their agenda perhaps?

Alternatively you could say that comparing 1995 and 2005 the number of kids killed by guns fell by half.

The fact is hardly any kids are killed by guns and the number is so small and volatile that comparing one year to another is statistically meaningless. What might be interesting is that consistently around half the kids killed each year are shot by their own parents.

We need to get real with some of this stuff. Balance protection of kids against the very real danger that we make them grow up avoiding all risk and adventure and doomed to a life lived in fear.
:rant:

[ravingdavis]

To some extent I am sat on the fence despite what I did that's why I asked my initial question. I hate the fact that it feels like there are so many people sticking their nose in where it is not wanted and after the fact that is a little how I felt. I had become one of those 'busy bodies', on the other hand the 'what if' sadly today does not seem to be so trivial.

The overwhelming majority of times nothing would have happened to those kids but it just takes 1 time for the proverbial to hit the fan, the million £££ question is at what point should the line be drawn between safety of kids and a mother/father's wish to leave kids alone in a public area for a few minutes.

As for the story of why the kids were left in the car, it makes no difference to the situation. A potential kidnapper will not differentiate because said parent is in a bad mood or because someone is ill or hungry. The kids were left in the car, the side sorry is irrelevant.

I think this thread has caused me to come to one conclusion - for this situation there does not seem to be a right or wrong but just what someone thinks is the appropriate thing to do.

My conscience is clear.

[-Ralph-]

Times have changed. When I was a baby (1976) my mum used to leave me asleep outside the shop whilst she went in to fetch something. One day she came out and somebody had done a baby swap, stolen my nice pram, and left me in a dirty old pushchair.

Would any of you leave a baby outside a shop today? Think carefully before you answer, it's easy to type "Yes" on a forum, but when was the last time you saw an unattended baby outside a shop? Personally, I haven't seen it since early childhood, but I've seen way more than a 1000 mothers and baby's out shopping in my adulthood. So that tells me that way upwards of 99.99% of parents wouldn't do it.

In many circumstances it's not valid to compare what happened when you were a child, to what happens now. The world is a such a different place.

I do sometimes leave my son in the car, but only in public places if I can see the car from where I want to go, and that is less than 100ft or so, and only at home if he is sleeping when I arrive home, so I'll leave him on my own driveway which is well off the public road, usually with the dog moping around nearby, and go somewhere that I can watch the car out of the window. He is still strapped into an elevated child seat and my car is alarmed and deadlocked, so even if he could reach the door handle which he can't, he wouldn't be able to open it.

Forget all the guns, child abductors, everything else. This 5 yr old kid was left in an old Golf. He could have got out and played with the traffic. He could have let the handbrake off. (Did that when I was a kid left in a car too! Luckily the slope of the parking space rolled me forwards over the pavement and into somebody's garage door, rather than backwards into the path of ongoing traffic).

As for the story of why the kids were left in the car, it makes no difference to the situation. A potential kidnapper will not differentiate because said parent is in a bad mood or because someone is ill or hungry. The kids were left in the car, the side sorry is irrelevant.

I think this thread has caused me to come to one conclusion - for this situation there does not seem to be a right or wrong but just what someone thinks is the appropriate thing to do.

My conscience is clear.

Bang on mate.