LPG Conversion yes or no?

[thefallenangel]

Been looking into this with the impending VAT + fuel duty rise.

My little C1 Citroen might be running off LPG. Been offered £840 for it to be converted and the pay back is 20k. I plan to keep the car until it goes bang as i've paid £4k for it and had some good usage out of it and with a new clutch in i'm not giving something with brand new tyres, clutch, brakes all done to it away cheaply.

Anyway i'm all for it but worried that there's rumors flying of LPG damaging engine which use Lean burn technology. I don't want to be putting a new engine in within 30k as it will be pointless because the valves have decided to eat themselves.

Does the 'org have any green warriors? If so anyone with bad or good reviews?

[andrewsmith]

is it a C1 Diesel?

[thefallenangel]

Petrol bug. 1.0 12v.

[yorkie_chris]

Green warriors? Most of the people with LPG run gas* guzzling 4x4s :)

There have been rumours flying about LPG damaging everything. The expansion means it runs very cool, and has a high octane rating, so I wouldn't expect any extra issues from running lean. But who knows. Find an expert or someone who's done it.

*Literally!

[thefallenangel]

according to http://archive.carkeys.co.uk/features/technical/637.asp it's lean run which is causing the problems. TBH if the car does 30k i'd be happpy but for 30k i'd expect it to be scrapped after as it would take me 4 years.

[yorkie_chris]

is it a C1 Diesel?

:rolleyes:

[andrewsmith]

There won't be any space for the tank in a C1 (lpg tanks are larger than petrol).

and as YC said they do all run old V8 Landies/ Jeeps/ Land Crusiers etc...

[svrich]

I'm a gas guzzling 4x4 owner, two actually, and they are both on LPG.
My V8 converted series landrover has been on it for the last 11 years, probably only run on petrol for about 200 miles in all that time, and it is running fine. I'm now going to tempt fate completely by saying that there has only been one thing go wrong with the LPG (a connector for the hot water feed split and steam filled the engine bay). Can't comment on the newer engines though, but, a lot of newer landrovers that I know of are LPG converted and run very well.

[andrewsmith]

is it a C1 Diesel?

:rolleyes:

Just about moves

[thefallenangel]

the C1 has tanks available. Checked on the kit's site perfectly fine a 41 litre or 34 litre but apparently gas can only be filled to 80% so will only be 32 or 27 litres a time anyway.

[yorkie_chris]

What sort of mpg do you get? That might be a pretty short tank considering the LPG is about 70% of the density of petrol (but a few more KJ/Kg)

[thefallenangel]

50-55 on a run so -10 % your looking at 45 which is 300 ish on 6-7 gallons.

As long as it's above 250 it doesn't matter too much.

[Stonesie]

Go for it, my car uses it with no problems at all.

A modern LPG injection system will probably start on petrol then switch to gas once the engine coolant starts to warm up and that alone cures most of the valve seat problems, the LPG goes into the engine dry but the petrol is still liquid as it passes the valve head and that lubricates the valve seat. Some switch back to petrol automaticly for a few seconds every so often too... My own car uses a very basic mixer type system with a lambda feedback to keep the mix ideal, had to add a sensor for that and being a BMW it has no valve seat issues, tough as old boots.

The guy doing the install should be able to advise you weather that type of engine needs anything else (Flashlube)

[gruntygiggles]

Mate, you're in Cardiff and if you want some expert advice, call my brother-in-law....and if you want it done, have it done with him. He runs the business from his own garage at his house, he spends a massive amount of time fixing up the botched jobs done by the many money grabbing LPG conversion "specialists" that have set up in the last few years. What he doesn't know about it isn't worth knowing.

I know it's easy to say that, but maybe Stretchie can tell you a bot more as he talks cars with him more than I do.

If you want to give him a call, he'll be more than happy to discuss it with you, whether you want to do it with him or not. He just hates when people listen to the crap that gets spurted out by the people that are just after your money, so he'd rather tell you what you need to know so that you don't get fleeced by whoever you choose to have it done with. He's based in Caerwent, so not too far away.

Personally, I have run a 1989 Range Rover with a 3.9efi V8 and without LPG it would have cost a fortune to run. I had a few issues with it to start with as I bought it with LPG already fitted off ebay. Gave it to my b-i-l and dad (also trained to do it) and they had it sorted in a few hours.
I also ran a 1986 LR Defender (90) on LPG and I didn't even have a petrol tank on that for 2 years. Only problem I ever had was carb icing once. Turns out, when we had someone do some unrelated work on the engine, he thought he'd be a smart rrrse and adjust something. Call to b-i-l at the side of the road, 2 minutes later we were on our way. That was a system that him and my dad fitted and we got great performance from it.

Just PM me if you want the number x

Oh and yes...he and my dad are fully registered and qualified to the highest standards...shame all places aren't...even when they say they are!

[thefallenangel]

http://www.lpgconverter.co.uk/item.php?id=200&dir=129 is that him?

[gruntygiggles]

http://www.lpgconverter.co.uk/item.php?id=200&dir=129 is that him?

Yep...that's him, so you won't need me to give you his number. I think my dad is doing them a website at the moment, but most of their business is by word of mouth. If you do call him...just say that I mentioned you.

He's one of those annoying guys that knows everything about cars YET...doesn't let pride get in the way of saying he doesn't if he's ever not sure.

Oh and if you have any interest in Land Rovers, he has a yard full of them!

[thefallenangel]

okay, tbh looking at it the price i've been quoted is a good price. But it's always good to get other prices.

[gruntygiggles]

Like I said, you don't have to do it with him, but if you want someone trustworthy to answer a question truthfully...he's your man. You don't run a business from a house where your two young girls live if you don't know full well you're giving good advice and service.

[punyXpress]

Pay back is only 20k if ' they ' dont bump up the duty on lpg.

[thefallenangel]

i'll take the risk. if in 6 months i cover 3-4k miles and they up duty then i will already have scooped up £200 of the costs and i doubt it will be that drastic a tax rise.

[Sir Trev]

Getting the mapping set up right is the tricky bit and I've yet to find someone who can do it right. My 2.0 Mundaneo runs fine on LPG and it saved me a fortune in fuel. BUT engines do suffer valve seat recession depending on how hard the seats are. The muppet that fitted out my car (before I bought it) did not fit a Flashlube and at 60k miles the valve clearanes had closed up quite a lot. It cost me most of my previous two years of fuel savings to rectify and the mapping was not sorted (again).

GG - it may be a long way for me to go but I may pay your b-i-l a visit next service time.

Would I do it again? No. I'd buy one of the new efficient 1.4 or 1.6 turbo petrol lumps and get the same sorts of savings. LPG is good for large thirsty engines - the payback for a small engine will be a long time. And although most LPG evangelists will say LPG is easily available it's not really - on long trips I have to plan my stops carefully to feed my hopelessly small "spare wheel" tank (230 mile range).

[thefallenangel]

Within 10 miles of my house there is at least 4 LPG refuellers. MY old works van was LPG but was stopped using it due to someone having an accident refuelling. TBH it's this or alloy wheels and i think it's a better idea. My only issue is with the valve seats closing which i don't want but if the engine lasted 40k i'd still save £800 having it done so it's a bit confusing.

booked for £845.

[gruntygiggles]

Spoke to my dad this morning. It's unlikely that you'd have used them anyway, their cheapest is £1,400 going up to a little over £1,600 becaue it takes them 3-4 days to do.

If it's under a grand, chances are it'll be done in a day or two and will work well enough for a while. The reasons the cheap conversions are worth thinking twice about are these:-

A cheap conversion will be using the cheaper parts, which although pass all asfety standards and are fine, do not come with any of the connections. This means that all of the connections need to be done manually and on cheap conversions, these are done by simply crimping the wires. They also usually then tuck them out of the way and out of sight. Looks pretty, but is hiding shoddy work. This is not a long term connection and so after a while, when a connection fails, the system fails and it is very very hard to find the bad connection. Most places will just narrow it down and replce half a unit at a cost of about £600...not good when it's cost you £900 already.

The reason my dad and Mykul don't have this problem is that they use the better parts in the first place and take the time to solder all connections and do regular diagnostics hooked up to the computer through the install to ensure the system is working at its optimum level.

So...dad said it's important that you ask them how they secure the connections, do they crimp or solder? If they say that they solder, try and get it in writing as lots of places will lie about this.

Regards running, with a venturi, which is a standard system, running lean can give you backfires in the manifolds on carbs.

With an injection system, you don't get this backfire problem, however, it is definitely worth asking the company where they put the injectors. On cheap, quick turnaround conversions, the injectors will just be placed somewhere that is easy to get to. Dad and Mykul always take the manifold off and put the injectors in where they should be. This again increases the performance of the system and ensures against future problems.

Last message from my dad, " Tell your friend that it is a good thing to have done and he'll save money wherever he goes in the long run as he's planning on keeping the car. Just let him know if you can that if he has any problems, we don't usually work on cars that are still under warranty with the original fitter as people expect it to be done free and we can't claim on that warranty. On the other hand, if he did come to us with an issue, we'd find and fix the problem and get it all right for him rather than just replace half or all of the system for another one that's fitted in just the same way".

An example, a company called RAGE (i think) that set up in the forest of dean a few years ago did literally hundreds of LPG conversions. They would state that they soldered connections and fitted injectors properly etc, yet they could get a conversion done in a day which makes that impossible. They would charge £900 all in and so make a killing doing it. Two years later, dad and Mykul started getting inundated with people asking them to look at it as the company were "no longer doing it". They lost so much money trying to fix all teh badly installed systems that they just stopped. When dad and Mykul gpt the vehicles, they had crimped connections that were failing and the injectors were poorly fitted and so on.

There are some good cheap conversion places out there, but when you spend less than say, £1,200 on a conversion, there will still be corners cut.

I know this may sound like me saying all cheap places are bad and you should get it done with my dad and Mykul, but TBH...they don't really need the business, hence no need to advertise. The reason for me posting the above is purely to try and save any issues in the future, so:-

Ask how they secure the connections, do they solder? If they so, get it in writing and also ask about the injectors, where do they put them, do they have to take the manifold off? If they say, "no, no need to remove the manifold", then they are cutting corners. That doesn't mean a bad system...it just means it's not going to be as good as it could be.

I'm glad you're doing it though. I'm not sure if you have any Countrywide stores that far along the coast yet, but there's one in Chepstow and they are all over the South West. You get an account, a key and pin and get better prices filling up where they are available.

[cluffy]

Say you had a v8 landrover and got the conversion, would it reduce the road tax? and what sorta mpg would you get from a lpg landrover. sorry to go off topic a bit.

Danny

[Stu]

... and Mykul
You're taking the Michael right?


;)

[Stu]

Say you had a v8 landrover and got the conversion, would it reduce the road tax?
No road tax is based on C02 as manufactured.
Your MPG would fall 10% maybe a third, but the fuel cost per litre is less.

[thefallenangel]

I will do this based on my little Citroen.

My C1 is tax band B which is 100g CO2/KM to 109g.

My C1 is 109g and they reckon it reduces it by 20% which would make it 89g and thus into tax group A which is free.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

[Stu]

I will do this based on my little Citroen.

My C1 is tax band B which is 100g CO2/KM to 109g.

My C1 is 109g and they reckon it reduces it by 20% which would make it 89g and thus into tax group A which is free.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524
Wrong!
Nothing you do to your car will affect it's road tax.
You could fit a massive 6 litre turbo engine to your C1 and they will not ask you for more road tax.

[thefallenangel]

that's stupid.

[yorkie_chris]

How does LPG give out less CO2?

[thefallenangel]

according to all the green sites it does. Dunno how though

[Dicky Ticker]

Considering you are talking about a 1000cc engine you are aware that you also have a performance drop to go with the drop in fuel consumption. This is a lot less noticeable on any engine 2.0litre or above but I would imagine quite apparent on a small cc engine. The other factors to take into consideration is additional weight and resale of a vehicle that may be harder to dispose of and the additional maintenance, plus you don't seem to have a very high expectancy of engine life on the figures you are quoting.
I am not saying it is a bad idea but taking ALL the factors into consideration is it worth the hassle.
My answer to your question is no

[yorkie_chris]

How does LPG give out less CO2?

you also have a performance drop

Question answered.

Possibly, the propane will displace a significant amount of air in the intake meaning less fuel burnt to give the right mixture.


It does not sound worth the hassle to me either. Only reason it makes sense is if you're going to get some snorting great engine and keep it for years and lots of miles.
It will not take a great many issues to knock that break-even point well back for you with lots of extra hassle in there for a good measure.

[embee]

From what I've read, auto LPG is mainly a mix of propane C3H8 and butane C4H10 , typical petrol is around the ratio of C8-H18 (it isn't the same as simple "octane" C8H18 but the ratio ends up in that ballpark). depending on the exact blend, LPG ends up with less C and more H so proportionally less CO2 and more H2O when burnt. I haven't seen the mass comparisons but it should end up giving a bit less CO2, I've seen 81% quoted but I'm not sure if that's for equivalent mileage, I guess about 6% reduction from the higher calorific value effect and about 13% from the C/H ratio effect (7/8 or thereabouts), seems logical I think.

The sums for whether it's a cost effective conversion must be quite complex, petrol is typically 43MJ/kg and LPG is 46MJ/kg but because of the lower density you get around 26MJ/L for LPG compared to nearer 32MJ/L for petrol. Thus expect fuel economy to be something like 80% of that for petrol (miles per litre). Not sure of costs today, petrol £1-20 and LPG 70p/L ?? Correcting for economy that's £1-20 petrol and 88p LPG like for like, so about 75% of the fuel costs per mile compared to petrol.

Not sure what people actually see in real world driving.

If the Governments didn't fiddle the equations with ridiculous duty differences it'd be a different story.

[Dicky Ticker]

Without going into great detail I was advised "No" on a 1000cc VW Polo which does about 55mpg so very similar to the propose vehicle.Somebody who I worked with had a Renault Clio done and it was magic for the year of warranty but after 18 months he had loads of trouble and ended up taking the whole system out.
Before anybody says anything I know this maybe a one off and unfair criticism when others may not have had the problems
I look at it this way---How many manufactures actually push it as a sales pitch?.
They are available from some but a couple of mates who work for different main agents say they are a right pain.

[gruntygiggles]

Without going into great detail I was advised "No" on a 1000cc VW Polo which does about 55mpg so very similar to the propose vehicle.Somebody who I worked with had a Renault Clio done and it was magic for the year of warranty but after 18 months he had loads of trouble and ended up taking the whole system out.
Before anybody says anything I know this maybe a one off and unfair criticism when others may not have had the problems
I look at it this way---How many manufactures actually push it as a sales pitch?.
They are available from some but a couple of mates who work for different main agents say they are a right pain.

Not a one off at all, hence the points made in my post. It is so common a problem. Companies set up offering conversions with all the promises and a great warranty, but cut corners to offer a good price. Unfortunately, the systems only last a few years before going wrong, due to said corners being cut...the main one being the connections I mentioned earlier.

I'll ask my dad and Mykul tomorrow about the value in converting a 1000cc. They started out doing Land Rovers and other 4x4s, then when all the disgruntled customers started appearing, they had the work fall in their lap as they had such a good reputation.

Oh and Rob...yeah, we all take the mick out of him for the way his parents spelled his name...lol

[Sir Trev]

Wrong!
Nothing you do to your car will affect it's road tax.


Sorry Stu, you're not quite right here. If you convert to LPG and get an LPGA certificate you can get the vehicle re-registered as alternative fuel, which gives a £10 reduction in road tax. It does not go down to the the bracket your clean running LPG engine now kicks out as you could convert and then run on petrol (as if you would after the capital outlay!) so your tax bracket stays effectively the same.

If the car is set up right you will not notice any performance drop. But I still question the need to go for LPG on a 55mpg small car... Unless you do starship miles it's not likely to be worth it for several years and the hassle factor may be huge. Good luck - there are a lot of rubbish installers out there!!

[Dicky Ticker]

Some insurance companies will not insure aftermarket conversions whither they are certified or not. Others will, but an increased premium,providing you have an annual test on the system which is more expense.All these little bits of expense add up over a 3-4 year period which have to be offset against the gain calculated on today's fuel prices and your usage
As I stated in a previous post,on advice purely over the financial gain I was told that it was not worth the trouble on a small c.c. engine with comparatively low annual mileage,but, in the end the decision is for you to make as to whether it would be beneficial to you after weighing up all the pros and cons.

[Sir Trev]

Dicky - the service cost is a fuel filter (inline jobbie) and an hours labour to check connections for any leaks, so it's not too bad. Bit more if you want them to re-set the mapping at the same time.

As to insurance, some take a silly view but I found on the comparison sites you can often add LPG on the modifications page and I had no problem getting cover at a reasonable price. Depends on location/age and the like of course.

With the mileage I was doing on a 2.0 relatively heavy car it was worth it. But as I said before I'd not do it again unless I had a big thirsty car I really wanted to keep - current diseasals are now more economical and the new turbo petrol lumps are getting there too. Being a slightly anal bean counter thinking of changing my other car next year I do of course have a comparison spreadsheet. The 2.0 TDIs are much cheaper overall and the 1.6T petrols give the same power with less CO2, better MPG and lower VED than my 06 plate 2.0 LPG Mondy.

[Stonesie]

The LPG we get in the UK is basicly crap, people I know who have toured in France on gas have reported a 10% economy increase and more grunt running on French LPG compared to what they get here... A re-map can take advantage of the higher octain (about 107 RON) to cancell out any performance drop by dialing in some extra ignition advance.

I'm thinking of upgrading the LPG on mine to sequential so I can have a MAF conversion and twin-map ECU...

[philbut]

My girlfriends brother is an LPG fitter. I'm not saying which company for, but He wouldn't fit LPG to his car. They get a lot of fried top ends apparently.

[-Ralph-]

is it a C1 Diesel?

:rolleyes:

Just about moves

Not on LPG it doesn't. :lol:

What brand of spark plugs would you recommend for a diesel engine?

[gruntygiggles]

You can fit LPG conversions to diesels nowadays. It has to be a new engine and a certain type of engine, but it can now be done.

[Sir Trev]

You can fit LPG conversions to diesels nowadays. It has to be a new engine and a certain type of engine, but it can now be done.

Indeed, but I believe it becomes an LPG-only vehicle, as opposed to a petol/LPG as you cannot swap between LPG and diseasal. If your local supply was not perfect (mine isn't - Asda is the only stockist in HW and they only have a small tank of it) you may well end up stranded.

[yorkie_chris]

I don't see why you'd bother as veggie oil or some other alternative diesel gives you cheaper fuel without having to mess around that much?

[gruntygiggles]

Indeed, but I believe it becomes an LPG-only vehicle, as opposed to a petol/LPG as you cannot swap between LPG and diseasal. If your local supply was not perfect (mine isn't - Asda is the only stockist in HW and they only have a small tank of it) you may well end up stranded.

Yup...my dad calls them diseasals as well...lol :-)

I don't see why you'd bother as veggie oil or some other alternative diesel gives you cheaper fuel without having to mess around that much?

Yup again, we'll be running ours on a veg oil mix when we can sort it all out :-)

[thefallenangel]

my dad ran 50/50 veg oil to diesel and he said it's difficult because the MPG drops and unless your covering silly, silly mileage it's just not worth it.

Veg oil is something like £4 a gallon and you lose a bit of mpg so over a tank you'll save a few quid which by the time you pour half down the car trying to fill it it's not worth it unless you can buy it on offer or find a cheaper source.

[gruntygiggles]

my dad ran 50/50 veg oil to diesel and he said it's difficult because the MPG drops and unless your covering silly, silly mileage it's just not worth it.

Veg oil is something like £4 a gallon and you lose a bit of mpg so over a tank you'll save a few quid which by the time you pour half down the car trying to fill it it's not worth it unless you can buy it on offer or find a cheaper source.

Yeah, we'd be looking at setting up our own filtration unit and getting direct from local chippy's and take aways :-)

Prob wouldn't run on 50/50 unless it was a really hot summer as the colder it gets, the thicker it gets. So up to 50/50 in the summer and down to as low as 80/20 in the winter, but Dan knows much more than me on that....I am going from memory of what he has told me about it.

[andrewsmith]

about £3gal atm 4 veg oil. It does seem to suited to long distance.

[thefallenangel]

in this weather i wouldn't bother. However i would wait for it to come on offer or at a better price and sit on it until warmer weather or perhaps for a holiday/long journey.

If it's 75p a litre then it's more worth it if your talking 30 litres as ATM that's a £16/£17 saving per tank of 60 litres.

Also take into fact in this weather tend not to do as much driving as summer. But then with a tax rise coming diesel will be pushing £1.30 a litre which again puts the veggie oil at an even better idea.

[thefallenangel]

Got my gas conversion done saturday, cost me £870 w/ full tank of gas. Will be taking it for a full run from Newport to Reading and back next weekend but run it form Ystrad Mynarch down to Newport and all seems okay. I reckon the payback is 18,000 miles so hopefully 2-3 years will get my money back.

[gruntygiggles]

Cool...if you were in Ystrad Mynarch, you were right where I come from. Gor family in Ystrad, Wylie, Pontllanfraith, Fluer-de-lys, Blackwood and so on :-)

[kwak zzr]

i looked into a LPG conversion for my beemer but at £1800 cus its a 6cyl id never recover the money i only do about 70 miles per week.

good point by philbut at the top of page 5, its good to hear from ppl who fit these conversions, i agree with the diesel thing tho, my mate had a diesel belingo and he always run on 50% cooking oil with no problems :) it did smell like you was driving a chip shop tho :)

[thefallenangel]

well if you got a 4 cylinder car running at 30mpg then the conversion pays for itself in 8/9,000 miles it makes sense but on your BMW it would.

I'm happy with it so far just need to ensure my bug recovers the cost before the system is out of warranty so i get my money back at the very least.

[Stu]

well if you got a 4 cylinder car running at 30mpg then the conversion pays for itself in 8/9,000 miles it makes sense but on your BMW it would.

I'm happy with it so far just need to ensure my bug recovers the cost before the system is out of warranty so i get my money back at the very least.
It will be interesting to hear how your miles per litre is affected by the new fuel.