View Full Version : ABS whats the script
davepreston
13-01-11, 04:07 AM
i know how it works on a car, i think i understand on a bike, but it puzzles me as to the usefulness of it due to the lack of 2 extra wheels (poise and weight distrabution factors), linked front to back brake effect if they are linked etc
so, does it work, does it work well, what are the befits and drawbacks, good or bad for bikes, would it work well on a trike, is it worth retro fitting one from a vstrom onto the sv, would this cost a fortune, what would it intail, who would benfit from it if anyone
so basicly people start from a finish at z ,talk everything abs and i shall ingest
begin
beabert
13-01-11, 04:22 AM
I was asking the same questions last month, i watched some youtube vids of it being turned on and off going through puddles and under hard braking. It seems clear to me it works; and i would be interested in having it if it weren't for one tiny problem. If you brake like you have abs, and one day it packs up, you are going to be in big trouble!. Not being clued up on bike abs systems, i dont know what the likely hood of failure is?
Obviously if your racing you may not want it.
Traction control would worry me for the same reason.
Jackie_Black
13-01-11, 07:10 AM
I have it on my honda hornet ABS.
The front brake works as normal and if you lock the wheel it releases it to stop you falling off. The back brake however is linked to the front and works a bit like a car brake. You can stamp on it and the bike just stops dead, its great. The only minor niggle is you can't trail brake which i used to do.
I would probably have it again given the choice but wouldn't rule out a bike just cos it didn't have ABS, hope this helps.
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 07:53 AM
Well you have ridden a bike with ABS, so you should know :p
LOL
Actually I realise I forgot to give you the "try stamping on the rear brake to feel what the ABS is like" talk before you had a go on it.
Front brake - I think I have had the ABS kick in twice, if that. What happened? Well I stopped about a foot further forwards than I wanted to, but the bike was upright, I just rolled further.
Rear brake - Well having been using the SV again, I've had a few rear locks due to heavy footedness, which to be honest the ABS on the Zed has been warning me about - you get what feels like a kick through the lever, and the bike doesn't stop as you wanted, but the rear doesn't do the lock/slide routine...
As for retro-fit, well the bike with ABS will have an idiot light on its clocks to notify if it sees an ABS fault, so that would have to be added into the system. You are probably also looking at having to mount the servos, a second fuse box and a few other bits and pieces.
Is ABS THAT important, no, not really. It will stop you locking the wheels if you are ham fisted.
PM me with a time that good for you in the evening and we can have a chat :)
I was asking the same questions last month, i watched some youtube vids of it being turned on and off going through puddles and under hard braking. It seems clear to me it works; and i would be interested in having it if it weren't for one tiny problem. If you brake like you have abs, and one day it packs up, you are going to be in big trouble!. Not being clued up on bike abs systems, i dont know what the likely hood of failure is?
If your riding/driving and constantly relying on the ABS to sort out your breaking, then I'd say your heading for trouble anyway. That isn't really what ABS is there for. It's a last measure get out of jail free.
STRAMASHER
13-01-11, 08:47 AM
Is ABS affected by different rubber?
Do you use it as a performance aid, ie braking a lot harder, quicker?
Can you still chirp the tyre? Or is it a bit of a killjoy?
Does it interupt your braking over ripples and bumps?
Some ABS good (S1000RR/ Honda C-ABS?) some gash ....?
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 08:56 AM
If your riding/driving and constantly relying on the ABS to sort out your breaking, then I'd say your heading for trouble anyway. That isn't really what ABS is there for. It's a last measure get out of jail free.
+1. I spent the couple of hundred quid on ABS because I commute through London, the home of the badly places manhole cover and pedestrilemmings...
Sid Squid
13-01-11, 09:18 AM
How does it work?
Same as with cars - each wheel has a speed sensor, when braking if one wheel speed is significantly different to the other the ABS system will act. Modern ones are very. very good, they far exceed the capabilities of the early bike systems which were by comparison crude, you've got to try one - it really does work.
Linked brakes?
Not necessarily.
Drawbacks?
Weight, complexity, cost.
Advantages?
Some people reckon they can outbrake an ABS system, without getting in to why they're wrong, think about what ABS does - it's not for the times when you're consciously trying very hard to get that extra final smidge of pressure into the brake, which is the circumstance where some people reckon they can beat it - a nice setup brake test on a known surface with a hundred practice runs first, it's for those moments where some numpty pulls out in front of you and you grab a big handful of lever and in a panic exclaim 'Deary me, that was close', which are the occasions in which it works fantastically.
Also as most new bikes are moving to fuel injection and full electronic control, connecting the ABS sensors to the engine management is a small thing - this way lies efficient traction control too.
Good for bikes?
Yes.
Trikes?
No reason why not.
Retro fit?
No, the systems are complex and very specific, there are obvious parallels between the SV and Strom but I still think they would be sufficiently different to make the resulting system less than ideal.
Would that cost lots?
Oh yes.
The question of its failure is interesting, if you know how it works you'd know that it were to fail the brakes would still work normally, and the suggestion you'd suddenly lock up everywhere as you'd be used to it doing the thinking for you is rubbish, ABS systems make it quite plain when they're doing something for you, usually by pulsing the lever
ABS works, if it were an option on a bike I was considering buying I would have it - despite the vague objections that I have heard it is definately a positive thing.
So I'd have it - but I'd still practice the skills needed to not need it - which you pretty much do everytime you ride your bike.
Luckypants
13-01-11, 10:13 AM
I won't bother answering as Sid covered it pretty comprehensively.
I will say, the two times I've needed the ABS it has saved my bacon big style. Note I say needed, because when the talent ran out I needed rescuing and ABS did it.
MattCollins
13-01-11, 11:01 AM
...
Retro fit?
No, the systems are complex and very specific, there are obvious parallels between the SV and Strom but I still think they would be sufficiently different to make the resulting system less than ideal...
I don't know why you'd want to use DL bits when the SV650 is produced with ABS for some markets.
yorkie_chris
13-01-11, 11:07 AM
The metal bits would be dead easy, it's all the computermabobs that would be hard.
Maybe studying a DL or SV-ABS manual would help as you could see if the ABS wires link to the ECU or if they have a separate ABS box.
grimey121uk
13-01-11, 11:13 AM
I saw a test in either ride or bike magazine a few months back, they had professional riders on 3 different bikes and tested them with ABS on and off, and on all 3 occasions ABS out performed no ABS, this test was also done in the dry, I would imagine the results would be amplified in wet conditions.
Although all 3 riders believed ABS took longer to stop as you get the run on effect.
I have ABS on my bandit and I cant see the issue with it, it has only ever kicked in once and without it I would of been off.
andreis
13-01-11, 11:16 AM
One more noteworthy thing: Even if ABS is generally for minimizing braking distance, its most important effect on bikes is that it keeps you upright. This is not something of worry with cars in most situations, but it does concern us a lot. If the front locks up (and it will when the going gets really tough) you wash out immediately and loose all manner of control.
With regards to braking distance, I don't really care that it's 1m longer then the absolute minimum, it's still bloody better then what I would get with some serious practice. For me, it's a definitive must on my next bike.
Oh, and one more thing. Hydraulic brakes will soon be a thing of the past. Electric motor - based brakes will take over. And the ABS on those is simply amazing. On non-deformable surfaces they squeeze every single drop of available possible traction. Electric brakes with ABS beat hydraulic ones with ABS hands down (-15% braking distance!!!) simply because they can pulse so much faster.
MattCollins
13-01-11, 11:17 AM
Chris, the electroabobs are all available regardless of whether they are tied to the ECU or not... so if someone was keen enough to do it then it can be done without any engineering. Retrofit to a curvy might be a different story if it is an integrated system.
Sid Squid
13-01-11, 11:55 AM
I don't know why you'd want to use DL bits when the SV650 is produced with ABS for some markets.
I wouldn't - but that was the question that was asked.
Biker Biggles
13-01-11, 12:42 PM
Im told the new Honda fly by wire ABS linked system takes some beating.Even experienced national level racers cant better its stopping distances,and ordinary riders stop very much quicker.The only downside according to one racer was that having the rear brake on can make the bike squat more than usual altering the steering geometry.
Id settle for that.
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 01:44 PM
Although all 3 riders believed ABS took longer to stop as you get the run on effect.
Only an issue if you just haul on the brakes like a muppet and expect ABS to save you.
If the brakes are used properly - ie in a way that would not cause a lockup normally, then I would expect an ABS vs Non-ABS test to say "They are the Same".
As said, if ABS is kicking in, you are not braking correctly.
It's a safety net (and teaching tool, you certainly know if its been applied, so can aim to not let it happen again), not a wonder tool.
-Ralph-
13-01-11, 01:51 PM
Wow, how times change. I expected this thread to be full of ABS haters by now.
I had put ABS down as a definite prerequisite for my bike, but it limited my choices somewhat, which in turn limited me to spending 4 grand or above, or having a bike I didn't want. In the end my new bike budget got eaten up by other things, so I canned that pre-requisite to give myself a wider choice of bikes.
The more new bikes that have ABS the better IMO and in another 3-4 years time, there will be a wide choice of ABS second hand bikes.
My issue with non ABS bikes is that you don't get day to day practice of the Stig's panic exclaim 'Deary me, that was close', scenario. However much you may think you're a riding god, when that day comes and a sudden shot of adrenaline gets hold of you, you probably will grab the lever in a panic, and you probably won't get 100% braking potential out of your front end.
I have promised myself that I'll spend a few car park sessions a year practising hard braking and emergency stops, now that I have bought a non-ABS bike. I'm still not under any illusion that I'd be safer with it than without it.
Im told the new Honda fly by wire ABS linked system takes some beating.Even experienced national level racers cant better its stopping distances,and ordinary riders stop very much quicker.The only downside according to one racer was that having the rear brake on can make the bike squat more than usual altering the steering geometry.
Id settle for that.
The new ZX10 is said to have the most advanced ABS system for road going bikes of all. So I have read.
-Ralph-
13-01-11, 01:57 PM
Only an issue if you just haul on the brakes like a muppet and expect ABS to save you.
If the brakes are used properly - ie in a way that would not cause a lockup normally, then I would expect an ABS vs Non-ABS test to say "They are the Same".
As said, if ABS is kicking in, you are not braking correctly.
It's a safety net (and teaching tool, you certainly know if its been applied, so can aim to not let it happen again), not a wonder tool.
It was bike magazine, and that was the test. 'The best braking you can do' vs 'grab the lever and pull as hard as you can'. Grab the lever and pull as hard as you can won.
The bike mag journos do a serious amount of mileage commuting on their long term test fleet bikes, never mind the unrecorded mileage that goes in on all the other tests they do. They also do a lot of track time both at track days, new bike launches and in some cases club racing. They are not exactly novice riders, and I'd expect them to know how to brake properly.
Even with their skill levels (which whatever you think about that they are better than mine), they didn't brake as hard as they could have done when their heads were having to worry about locking up. As soon as you took their 'feel' and their brains out of the equation and said "just hit the lever", they stopped more quickly.
beabert
13-01-11, 01:57 PM
If your riding/driving and constantly relying on the ABS to sort out your breaking, then I'd say your heading for trouble anyway. That isn't really what ABS is there for. It's a last measure get out of jail free.
Yep, think i had my mind on traction control at the time lol.
ABS will ALWAYS brake better than me. I'd have it. :)
grimey121uk
13-01-11, 02:04 PM
I dont understand people who hate ABS, if your a "riding god" then you will never lock your wheels up thus never even experience the ABS, however if you are mortal like myself then it is something you can rely on if worse comes to the worse. Its all very well and good being able to brake very precisely in a normal situation, however when things go bad and panic may set in,
Like I said iv'e felt it kick in once in the wet in an emergency and without it I would of been off for sure
The new ZX10 is said to have the most advanced ABS system for road going bikes of all. So I have read.
the new ABS system that honda showed the press a while back was part fly-by-wire, under a certian speed your braking action directly actuated the brakes, over 5mph your braking instead actuated a pressure sensor which in turn the computer decided how to brake for you, this had the added effect of no on/off braking as ABS systems had in the past as it worked out how to limit brake without loosing traction, all this tied in with traction control worked out to be the best, cars have started to move over to that system.
ps. some people that say that ABS has only kicked in a couple of times are mostly wrong i think, at faster speeds you feal the effect less, once you have it and become accustomed to it then you dont note all the time its actualy doing somthing.
the new ABS system that honda showed the press a while back was part fly-by-wire, under a certian speed your braking action directly actuated the brakes, over 5mph your braking instead actuated a pressure sensor which in turn the computer decided how to brake for you, this had the added effect of no on/off braking as ABS systems had in the past as it worked out how to limit brake without loosing traction, all this tied in with traction control worked out to be the best, cars have started to move over to that system.
ps. some people that say that ABS has only kicked in a couple of times are mostly wrong i think, at faster speeds you feal the effect less, once you have it and become accustomed to it then you dont note all the time its actualy doing somthing.
Sounds like something similar to what Kawasaki have on the ZX. I wonder if they 'liberated' the technology. :)
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 02:17 PM
It was bike magazine, and that was the test. 'The best braking you can do' vs 'grab the lever and pull as hard as you can'. Grab the lever and pull as hard as you can won.
The bike mag journos do a serious amount of mileage commuting on their long term test fleet bikes, never mind the unrecorded mileage that goes in on all the other tests they do. They also do a lot of track time both at track days, new bike launches and in some cases club racing. They are not exactly novice riders, and I'd expect them to know how to brake properly.
Even with their skill levels (which whatever you think about that they are better than mine), they didn't brake as hard as they could have done when their heads were having to worry about locking up. As soon as you took their 'feel' and their brains out of the equation and said "just hit the lever", they stopped more quickly.
The run-on effect they mentioned (and I quoted) is a by-product of the ABS - you only run on if the ABS has dis-engaged the brakes.
If as soon the ABS indicates its kicked in (you WILL feel this, just like you would feel a wheel-lock) you release and re-apply, just like non-ABS you WILL stop quicker than pull on the brake and let ABS keep you upright while it tries to stop you.
grimey121uk
13-01-11, 02:24 PM
Fairly interesting video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0&feature=related
-Ralph-
13-01-11, 02:44 PM
The run-on effect they mentioned (and I quoted) is a by-product of the ABS - you only run on if the ABS has dis-engaged the brakes.
If as soon the ABS indicates its kicked in (you WILL feel this, just like you would feel a wheel-lock) you release and re-apply, just like non-ABS you WILL stop quicker than pull on the brake and let ABS keep you upright while it tries to stop you.
The reason the bike journos stopped quicker was nothing to do with the ABS system kicking in, they may not even have activated it in some of the tests. It was because they had confidence that the wheel wouldn't lock, so they braked harder.
Fairly interesting video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0&feature=related
ive met that Rhys Boyd, he races for rockforge racing, got free paddock passes when freind of mine worked for Pink Express, also see him on his Virgin bike as he ferrys lots of celebs and co i work for snapps and i see them
that ABS system is smooth, you dont even know its doing anything, no pulsing, i suspect it also has a system to work out if the forks are loaded to increase braking effect
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 03:31 PM
The reason the bike journos stopped quicker was nothing to do with the ABS system kicking in, they may not even have activated it in some of the tests. It was because they had confidence that the wheel wouldn't lock, so they braked harder.
I was commenting on the quote about them being unhappy with the roll-on.
If there was no roll on they would not have been unhappy.
If there was no roll on they would not have activated the ABS
-Ralph-
13-01-11, 03:50 PM
I was commenting on the quote about them being unhappy with the roll-on.
If there was no roll on they would not have been unhappy.
If there was no roll on they would not have activated the ABS
OK, you quoted the wrong person then, I didn't mention anything about the roll-on.
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 04:03 PM
OK, you quoted the wrong person then, I didn't mention anything about the roll-on.
No, but grimey121uk did in his post that I quoted that you replied to :p
Thought it was going to be something like that - lol
andreis
13-01-11, 04:24 PM
The run-on effect they mentioned (and I quoted) is a by-product of the ABS - you only run on if the ABS has dis-engaged the brakes.
If as soon the ABS indicates its kicked in (you WILL feel this, just like you would feel a wheel-lock) you release and re-apply, just like non-ABS you WILL stop quicker than pull on the brake and let ABS keep you upright while it tries to stop you.
I seriously doubt it to be the case. If ABS kicks in, it will disengage way faster than you could possibly do it as a human. Each pulse you feel from the abs is an on/off sequence. It is able to release+reapply about 20times/sec (for the best systems).
As a human, your muscles simply cannot act that fast. We can barely pulse 2times/sec. So, if you do feel the abs kicking in, leave it there. One of the great misunderstandings related to ABS is that you should let go & reapply for shorter braking distances.
The other reason letting go & reapplying does not get you better braking distances is due to the way ABS works. It does not just try to keep the wheel from locking. It actually allows a bit of locking. To be more precise, it tries to keep the slip rate around 15%, which is where you get optimum braking on non-deformable surfaces. Because it cannot measure exact slip rates directly and requires the wheel to spin a little to measure an approximate slip rate, it needs to release to wheel to the point where slip rate goes for sure under 15%. Each pulse is an attempt to check that the slip rate is as close to 15% as possible.
The only reason experts defeat ABS is because of this characteristic where the SR varies with each pulse between 5-25% for ABS. The expert is able to keep it between lets say 10-20%, but he does so by applying constant pressure. If he were to increase the SR too much (e.g. bring the wheel towards total lock up - SR 100%) he would also have to pulse and would thus loose to the ABS. If abs were able to do more pulses per second, it might be able to keep the SR between, say, 13-17% (for a couple of hundred pulses per second).
If you feel the ABS kicking in, if you release the brakes & reapply you will VERY likely be increasing braking distance simply because of how slow we, as humans, are able to reapply pressure which in turn, keeps the braking force low for too long.
-Ralph-
13-01-11, 04:43 PM
I seriously doubt it to be the case. If ABS kicks in, it will disengage way faster than you could possibly do it as a human. Each pulse you feel from the abs is an on/off sequence. It is able to release+reapply about 20times/sec (for the best systems).
As a human, your muscles simply cannot act that fast. We can barely pulse 2times/sec. So, if you do feel the abs kicking in, leave it there. One of the great misunderstandings related to ABS is that you should let go & reapply for shorter braking distances.
The other reason letting go & reapplying does not get you better braking distances is due to the way ABS works. It does not just try to keep the wheel from locking. It actually allows a bit of locking. To be more precise, it tries to keep the slip rate around 15%, which is where you get optimum braking on non-deformable surfaces. Because it cannot measure exact slip rates directly and requires the wheel to spin a little to measure an approximate slip rate, it needs to release to wheel to the point where slip rate goes for sure under 15%. Each pulse is an attempt to check that the slip rate is as close to 15% as possible.
The only reason experts defeat ABS is because of this characteristic where the SR varies with each pulse between 5-25% for ABS. The expert is able to keep it between lets say 10-20%, but he does so by applying constant pressure. If he were to increase the SR too much (e.g. bring the wheel towards total lock up - SR 100%) he would also have to pulse and would thus loose to the ABS. If abs were able to do more pulses per second, it might be able to keep the SR between, say, 13-17% (for a couple of hundred pulses per second).
If you feel the ABS kicking in, if you release the brakes & reapply you will VERY likely be increasing braking distance simply because of how slow we, as humans, are able to reapply pressure which in turn, keeps the braking force low for too long.
Nice post.
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 04:44 PM
I seriously doubt it to be the case. If ABS kicks in, it will disengage way faster than you could possibly do it as a human. Each pulse you feel from the abs is an on/off sequence. It is able to release+reapply about 20times/sec (for the best systems).
As a human, your muscles simply cannot act that fast. We can barely pulse 2times/sec. So, if you do feel the abs kicking in, leave it there. One of the great misunderstandings related to ABS is that you should let go & reapply for shorter braking distances.
The other reason letting go & reapplying does not get you better braking distances is due to the way ABS works. It does not just try to keep the wheel from locking. It actually allows a bit of locking. To be more precise, it tries to keep the slip rate around 15%, which is where you get optimum braking on non-deformable surfaces. Because it cannot measure exact slip rates directly and requires the wheel to spin a little to measure an approximate slip rate, it needs to release to wheel to the point where slip rate goes for sure under 15%. Each pulse is an attempt to check that the slip rate is as close to 15% as possible.
The only reason experts defeat ABS is because of this characteristic where the SR varies with each pulse between 5-25% for ABS. The expert is able to keep it between lets say 10-20%, but he does so by applying constant pressure. If he were to increase the SR too much (e.g. bring the wheel towards total lock up - SR 100%) he would also have to pulse and would thus loose to the ABS. If abs were able to do more pulses per second, it might be able to keep the SR between, say, 13-17% (for a couple of hundred pulses per second).
If you feel the ABS kicking in, if you release the brakes & reapply you will VERY likely be increasing braking distance simply because of how slow we, as humans, are able to reapply pressure which in turn, keeps the braking force low for too long.
That may be the case for breaking distance, but those slips are loss of control, no matter how small.
Hands up everyone who has had an ABS bike for over 2 and a half years and is not just talking theory?
*HAND GOES UP*
Luckypants
13-01-11, 05:35 PM
I too have had ABS on my bike for over 2.5 years and have experience.
There's at least three situations where ABS may kick in
1) An emergency stop where you panic and grab on. In this case the best plan (IMHO) is to hang on and let ABS sort it out and keep you upright.
2) You hit poor surface while braking and ABS activates, keeps you upright, saves your bacon and cuts out as traction improves when off the poor surface. Best policy IMHO is to hang on and let ABS sort it out.
3) You are braking as hard as you can in a planned manner but over cook it, lose traction and ABS cuts in. (eg Track day) In this case, (again IMHO) ease off and re-apply to get back to maximum braking.
I have experienced 1 & 2 but not 3, despite lifting the rear wheel off the floor once or twice under braking.
That may be the case for breaking distance, but those slips are loss of control, no matter how small.
Hands up everyone who has had an ABS bike for over 2 and a half years and is not just talking theory?
*HAND GOES UP*
dont start playing that david, it will come to bite you back, having it does not make you better
SoulKiss
13-01-11, 05:46 PM
dont start playing that david, it will come to bite you back, having it does not make you better
I'm not saying that it makes me better - hell going back to the SV shows up that I have been relying on it in a few occasions.
I take on board what everyone thinks, but I know from first hand what happens if you think the ABS will dig you out of holes.
I never just haul on the brakes and ride out the ABS to get me to stop, in fact reading the post that I was last responding to has prompted me to give it a go next time I am out on the Zed, just to see what its like to grab a handful and let the bike do the thinking for me.
If the ABS kicks in I see it as a failure in my riding - whether thats because I braked harshly due to rider error, or had to grab a handful because I forgot that EVERY London bus has a pedestrian hiding behind it to jump out on me if I forget they are there :)
andrewsmith
13-01-11, 05:50 PM
ABS will ALWAYS brake better than me. I'd have it. :)
Thats the long and short of the argument.
I don't like ABS, learned on a CBF 500 with C-ABS, I found it very unnerving in the wet as it 'pulsed' a lot when I needed to pull from 50mph for lights (enough room to do it).
We'll have no option in a few years the EU may be making it madatory (and getting rid of the 100bhp rule some states have)
Dave20046
13-01-11, 07:22 PM
I was really keen to try out bike abs, admittedly I've never come off the sv though losing traction under braking (*touch wood*!) but it is a bit of a concern. Had a go on a beemer with it recently and wasn't dissapointed, it was a really greasy wet day with loads of diesel splodges every where - I was grabbing fist fuls of front brake (and sometimes kicking the back) at points through out the day and on approach to lights and it didn't slip once. Personally think the pros outway the cons.
Electronic suspension and traction control on the otherhand I'm not too keen on (the latter didn't work)
andreis
13-01-11, 07:39 PM
I'm not saying that it makes me better - hell going back to the SV shows up that I have been relying on it in a few occasions.
I take on board what everyone thinks, but I know from first hand what happens if you think the ABS will dig you out of holes.
I never just haul on the brakes and ride out the ABS to get me to stop, in fact reading the post that I was last responding to has prompted me to give it a go next time I am out on the Zed, just to see what its like to grab a handful and let the bike do the thinking for me.
If the ABS kicks in I see it as a failure in my riding - whether thats because I braked harshly due to rider error, or had to grab a handful because I forgot that EVERY London bus has a pedestrian hiding behind it to jump out on me if I forget they are there :)
Well, I do agree with you. I don't own an ABS bike (will do starting this spring, hopefully) so I only know the theory, as you point out. I must admit that while it's a nice thing to have, the fact that it is kicking in is indeed a failure on the rider's behalf due to letting oneself reach the situation where all the possible available traction is needed (and might not be enough).
But the part with the unseen sudden change in surface is all too often. It might happen while braking easily for a stop or something like that and that's a situation where you're not trying to squeeze everything out. Just a small mistake, not a seriously poor judgment of situation...
My new bike (see signature) has both ABS and traction control. I will be better than Rossi. :razz:
andrewsmith
13-01-11, 07:46 PM
And be white as a ghost with a brown stain on the back of the leathers :D
andreis
13-01-11, 07:48 PM
The G's will pull all your blood to your feet and you'll feel light in the head! :) Then we can all say why bikes make you high ;)
Specialone
13-01-11, 08:03 PM
Well, if my sprint would have had abs as an option, I would have had it.
I test rode a sprint for a whole day that had it fitted and activated it 5 mins after picking it up, filtering behind a van, look over my right shoulder to go for a gap, a car forces the van in front to stop while I'm looking the other way:( I grabbed a massive handful of front brake, I'm convinced it would have locked and gone down if not for abs.
Well, if my sprint would have had abs as an option, I would have had it.
I test rode a sprint for a whole day that had it fitted and activated it 5 mins after picking it up, filtering behind a van, look over my right shoulder to go for a gap, a car forces the van in front to stop while I'm looking the other way:( I grabbed a massive handful of front brake, I'm convinced it would have locked and gone down if not for abs.
That's exactly how I crashed Foxy's Ninja 250 on the motorway :( But to be fair, I don't think ABS would have saved me either as I was already so close to the van I didn't have a chance to brake at all.
my triumph sprint has ABS , not looking for a bike with ABS just happened to have it and first bike I've had with ABS fitted
So far never got ABS activated , but its nice to have just in case
Cheers Steve
mcgrimes
13-01-11, 10:42 PM
Only an issue if you just haul on the brakes like a muppet and expect ABS to save you.
As said, if ABS is kicking in, you are not braking correctly.
It's a safety net (and teaching tool, you certainly know if its been applied, so can aim to not let it happen again), not a wonder tool.
Correct me if im wrong, but the only way to practice not locking up your back/front wheel in an emergency situation would be through practice, right?
Now, personally, i dont practice emergency braking all that often, i prefer to brake gradually. But, in the event id need to brake suddenly, and through a sudden adrenaline surge, squeeze/press tighter that originally intended, i'd much rather have that safety net there.
Braking correctly is much easier with a stable head, not in a panic.
If the ABS kicks in I see it as a failure in my riding
So you have had to use it and surely you must appreciate it?
Im sorry for the ruckus, but you just seem conspicuously anti abs despite it saving your bootocks.
Sid Squid
13-01-11, 11:07 PM
Im sorry for the ruckus, but you just seem conspicuously anti abs despite it saving your bootocks.
I don't that's what SK meant to suggest - I think he was thinking along the same lines as me when I wrote:
So I'd have it - but I'd still practice the skills needed to not need it - which you pretty much do everytime you ride your bike.
mcgrimes
13-01-11, 11:15 PM
I dont have it, but wish i did.
If it has the potential to keep me up at times of need, then i'd call it a wonder tool :)
SoulKiss
14-01-11, 12:25 AM
Im sorry for the ruckus, but you just seem conspicuously anti abs despite it saving your bootocks.
Quite the opposite, when I had the choice to make 3 years ago, the thinking was quite the opposite of on this thread, I went against the popular thinking and spent a few hundred quid to get my Z750 with it fitted.
What I am against - as were a number of the arguements against ABS back then, is the potential trap of getting ABS and then believing you are a breaking god.
ABS should be there when the brown smelly stuff is hitting the fan (or the inside of your underpants :p), not relied on for every time you stop/slow the bike :)
mcgrimes
14-01-11, 03:32 PM
Not good to have the ABS kicking in all the time, definitely agree with that.
Its presence would sure make the Mod 1 test emergency braking easier lol. Although no doubt some brown nose wouldn't allow it.
-Ralph-
14-01-11, 03:34 PM
Its presence would sure make the Mod 1 test emergency braking easier lol. Although no doubt some brown nose wouldn't allow it.
It used to be allowed on the old test.
MattCollins
14-01-11, 03:37 PM
ABS should be there when the brown smelly stuff is hitting the fan (or the inside of your underpants :p), not relied on for every time you stop/slow the bike :)
Not good to have the ABS kicking in all the time, definitely agree with that.
The thing is that ABS is not kicking in or relied upon all of the time unless the rider is pulling the lever back to the bar all of the time.
The thing is that ABS is not kicking in or relied upon all of the time unless the rider is pulling the lever back to the bar all of the time.
If the lever is going all the way to the bar, I'd not want to ride the bike at all. ;-)
That may be the case for breaking distance, but those slips are loss of control, no matter how small.
Hands up everyone who has had an ABS bike for over 2 and a half years and is not just talking theory?
*HAND GOES UP*
I've had my Versys with ABS for 18 months/13,500 miles. I've had the ABS cut in a number of times, mostly when I've been riding like a complete tw4at and basically because I've become a bit slack as far as braking is concerned and developed a semi-hamfisted approach to hitting the front brake. I know it won't lock up so I push the boundaries further and further every time. In the wet I've discovered there is a whole world of difference between what I thought was heavy braking and what force you can actually brake with before the ABS cuts in.
What I can tell you is that on that simple Versys I can stop quicker in any conditions without the ABS cutting in than on any other bike I've owned, and that includes the GSXR1000 that had £1500 worth of BSB spec AP Racing 6-pot calipers with PFM ductile iron narrow track discs. I've learned how to push my braking to the limits safe in the knowledge that it's not going to lock up and have me off. Funnily enough, I never automaticaly assume that all bikes are equal in this department and treat non-ABS bikes with a little more respect on the brakes.
I don't know how my ABS works, and I don't really give a flying f**k how it works - all I need to know is it just does.
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