View Full Version : Undertaking - what's the penalty?
Just curious:
If you're caught undertaking on a motorway/dual carriage road, what's the penalty for it?
I don't mean doing doing 100+mph overtaking cars left and right.
I mean undertaking someone who is sitting in the overtaking lane despite the other lane (or two lanes) being empty?
I think many of us came across this and got fed up waiting behind the car occupying the overtaking lane for no reason.
Cheers
dyz
Bluepete
10-02-11, 11:52 AM
It's not a specific offence, however, it's usually dealt with under the "Due care and attention" rules.
You can end up in court and be given points and a fine. Or, you can be offered a Driver Improvement Course as an alternative to the court appearence.
Pete ;)
Jimmy2Feet
10-02-11, 11:53 AM
as far as i am aware all they can do you for it driving without due care and attention, i dont know what the max fine and penulty that comes with this is tho, 3 points and a small fine maybe, at most.
timwilky
10-02-11, 11:56 AM
How can it be "Due care and attention", surely that charge should be thrown at the driver who unnecessarily occupies an "Overtaking" lane. We have all seen those drivers who sit in the second lane for miles without there being a vehicle in the first lane.
By their lack of care and attention they are forcing a vehicle to effectively move from lane 1 to 3 in order to overtake and return back to 1
Jimmy2Feet
10-02-11, 11:59 AM
I dont think anyone on here will agree with the penulty......but that is what is it!
Personally i would sit behind the said driver, and flash my lights until he pulls over, then once pased make a point of moving into the slow lane to show that is the right place to be!!!!
It does really annoy me!
I agree with timwilky. It shouldn't be due care and attention in my view, if anything I would have thought the police would tend to sway more to dangerous driving?
What's your opinion on this Pete? Why would it be dealt with by your above mentioned method?
I personaly, after waiting about 30 seconds, would just under take them and then move into to correct lane. Whenever I over take someone late at night sitting in the middle lane I make a huge point of moving into lane 1 quickly to make my point. Normally after seeing that they tend to move over too, but some numpties carry on regardless!
Surely it's only undertaking if you acutally undertake by definition.
If you are in lane 1, and they are in lane 2 (generic Middle Lane Moron)... you are making progress at 70mph, the speed allowed in lane 1, they are doing 60mph in lane 2. If you pass them in lane 1 and remain in lane 1 then it's not undertaking, you are just making progress.
If you are in Lane 3, they are in lane 3... lane 2 is not clear but there is adequate space to move into lane 2 to pass the person blocking lane 3, to then move back into lane 3 yourself... that is undertaking.
There is definately a difference between passing on the left and actually deliberetly undertaking.
Luckypants
10-02-11, 12:08 PM
It's not a specific offence, however, it's usually dealt with under the "Due care and attention" rules.
But of course you would pull the driver blocking the overtaking lane and do them for that offence. :D
I used to commute on the M60 a few years ago. One morning I was sat behind someone waiting for them to clear the outside lane for a few miles with no traffic on the inside (it was early) when a police Range Rover caught up... he undertook and pulled in front of the dozy driver who was holding me up and lit up his matrix sign that said
'Use correct lane discipline
<----------'
Driver cacked themselves and pulled over immediately. They obviously knew they were in the wrong...
I loved it and thought it a very effective way to get the message across without the need to do a stop.
Bluepete
10-02-11, 12:13 PM
matrix sign that said
'Use correct lane discipline
<----------'
I do that all the time, but it makes no difference. There's no driver training on motorway use, no-one wants to cooperate with anyone else, each person is more important than any other and no-one gives a flying fornication what anyone thinks of them.
You try explaining to a middle aged man;
"I've been driving for thrity years and never been pulled over"
Why his insistence on staying in lane two for mile after mile is causing problems. It's like headbutting a brick wall. You get a headache and the wall doesn't even notice!
Pete ;)
BigBaddad
10-02-11, 12:18 PM
get one of these http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/06/badassbigrig---2_450.jpg
DarrenSV650S
10-02-11, 12:19 PM
So what about pulling in front of the lane hogger and slamming on the brakes?
Luckypants
10-02-11, 12:20 PM
I do that all the time, but it makes no difference....
You try explaining to a middle aged man;
Why his insistence on staying in lane two for mile after mile is causing problems. It's like headbutting a brick wall. You get a headache and the wall doesn't even notice!
Pete :wink:I'm middle aged, I've been driving for 30 years... I definitely get it. They are being deliberately obtuse.
Stick some points on knobs like that then mate :D
There's no driver training on motorway use.
Pete ;)
It's called the highway code... Paragraphs 137 and 138.
If they don't know it then their licences should be revoked and they should have to re-sit the theory... paragraph 137 is taught in driving lessons, but everyone should know the highway code anyway.
Motorway use is also taught through Pass Plus - who's attendence rates are increasing year on year.
G para 101 is what?
Mr Speirs
10-02-11, 12:39 PM
I don't deliberately undertake but if I am in lane 1 and they are in lane 2 I won't move to lane 3 to over take them. I just stayin my lane...sorta like the American rules.
I like to think that a police officer has enough common sense to realise which one of us needs a talking to.
Tends to only be noticable at night though...i think it's cos during the day there's so many middle lane lovers that it just fills up.
Bluepete
10-02-11, 12:50 PM
Motorway use is also taught through Pass Plus - who's attendence rates are increasing year on year.
G para 101 is what?
But it's not new drivers that tend to be the problem is it? It's more often that middle aged bloke or older driver who has never read the Highway code!
Pete ;)
SoulKiss
10-02-11, 01:01 PM
But it's not new drivers that tend to be the problem is it? It's more often that middle aged bloke or older driver who has never read the Highway code!
Pete ;)
Hasn't it ALWAYS been the case that people were taught to use the leftmost lane when possible?
Maybe if people like yourself were to start cracking down on it - so that it appeared on the BBC news - probably with one of those "I've been doing it for 30 years" blokes moaning about it, then people would think and not just ignore all those "Keep Left" signs on the sides of motorways.
I must admit I am just waiting for a talking to, because when I am on the motorway I will stick to lane 1 as much as possible, I once was in lane 1 for 5 miles before I caught up with and then passed someone who was sitting in lane 2, never leaving lane 1. The issue would be that once I "cleared" him, I then moved over to lane 3 to pass another lane 2 hogger who had been overtaking the same lorry for about 2 miles...
All the while I was doing legal speeds of course :)
metalangel
10-02-11, 01:09 PM
Lane 2 cruisers might not see you moving all the way from lane 1 to lane 3 in their mirrors, but they tend to see you then going back from lane 3 to lane 1 in front of them and then disappearing into the distance :p
Bluepete
10-02-11, 01:35 PM
Hasn't it ALWAYS been the case that people were taught to use the leftmost lane when possible?
Maybe if people like yourself were to start cracking down on it -
I passed my test in Herefordshire in 1989. There are no motorways there even now (thank God) and I learned nothing about motorways. yes, it tell you about it in the Highway Code, but who honestly read it if they didn't have to?
As for us cracking down, the job don't want us prosecuting Middle England for stuff like this. At the moment, with the proposals for cuts in Traffic Cops, below the parapet is certainly the place to be.
Pete :(
Roberrrrt
10-02-11, 01:47 PM
get one of these http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/06/badassbigrig---2_450.jpg
Didn't think you could take these into lane 3? ;)
SoulKiss
10-02-11, 01:57 PM
I passed my test in Herefordshire in 1989. There are no motorways there even now (thank God) and I learned nothing about motorways. yes, it tell you about it in the Highway Code, but who honestly read it if they didn't have to?
As for us cracking down, the job don't want us prosecuting Middle England for stuff like this. At the moment, with the proposals for cuts in Traffic Cops, below the parapet is certainly the place to be.
Pete :(
No motorways in Aberdeen when I passed my test in 1991 either, but, there are/were Dual Carriageways that should have covered the "Keep Left" HWC rules.
As for the last bit - totally ridiculous.
Wonder how many "its not a priority" issues the Police have to declare (Have been told this when making a complaint about the number of cyclists running red lights, so know that officers are told to turn a blind eye to stuff) it will take for people to have had enough and start dealing with stuff themselves.
Motorway use is also taught through Pass Plus - who's attendence rates are increasing year on year.
Increasing? I'm registered to teach Pass Plus and I'm not seeing any increase. Quite the opposite actually.
.
G para 101 is what?
Something about prohibiting the use of rear facing baby projector seats... Why?
Mr Speirs
10-02-11, 02:38 PM
But it's not new drivers that tend to be the problem is it? It's more often that middle aged bloke or older driver who has never read the Highway code!
Pete ;)
Im my experience of the M1 it seems to be foreign drivers. Asains, Africans and Eastern people. I try to make eye contact with the driver and I'd say 9/10 times it one of those.
Do people from other countries not have to take a driving test to drive in this country?
timwilky
10-02-11, 02:58 PM
As Britains first motorway was built a mile from my home, I grew up in the 60s as a passenger on motorways when it was not unusual to see cyclists etc also trying to use them. The advice was there then to use the outside lanes only for overtaking. In the 70s we had TV adverts telling us the outside lanes were for overtaking, and not to be a "weaver bird", and to read the highway code etc. So todays middle age drivers cannot say they did not know, they were bombarded with information.
My advice to Pete and his buddies, book em Danno
timwilky
10-02-11, 02:59 PM
By the way Britains first motorway was the Preston bypass. Many think it the M1 etc. But no, it is now just part of the M6
davepreston
10-02-11, 04:21 PM
By the way Britains first motorway was the Preston bypass. Many think it the M1 etc. But no, it is now just part of the M6
and note is was not built in the direction of inbread yorkshireland :)
Bluepete
10-02-11, 04:49 PM
and note is was not built in the direction of inbread yorkshireland :)
They didn't allow cars in Yorkshire back then.
Witchcraft was still something you could be burned at the pile of teabags for.
Pete ;)
By the way Britains first motorway was the Preston bypass. Many think it the M1 etc. But no, it is now just part of the M6
I can understand people not wanting to drive thro' Preston.:smt019
and note is was not built in the direction of inbread yorkshireland :)
They didn't allow cars in Yorkshire back then.
Witchcraft was still something you could be burned at the pile of teabags for.
Pete ;)
And as for you two, watch it or eye of toad and leg of newt will be cast in your general direction.
Bluepete
10-02-11, 05:07 PM
And as for you two, watch it or eye of toad and leg of newt will be cast in your general direction.
No thanks, I prefer a pizza personally. You can keep your medievil dinner ta very much!
Pete ;) ;)
Blue Flame
10-02-11, 05:20 PM
Whilst I totally agree about the comments made about drivers hogging the middle lane and it really rips my knittin as well I also get really ****ed off with the faster drivers who won't move to the third lane to let me out the first lane. It happens so often that in some respects I can understand why some drivers won't move to the first lane.
Sent from my Android using Tapatalk
Biker Biggles
10-02-11, 05:24 PM
Im my experience of the M1 it seems to be foreign drivers. Asains, Africans and Eastern people. I try to make eye contact with the driver and I'd say 9/10 times it one of those.
Do people from other countries not have to take a driving test to drive in this country?
They are not from other countries,they all live within ten miles of the M1:p
Still cant drive though.;)
I was always told that when riding but perhaps driving more so late at night on a motorway to always take the middle lane, gives you bit more of a chance should you nod off.
I don't bother cos I don't get how people can sleep behind the wheel, no matter how tired. I've never come close. Not a bad idea for those who are susceptible though.
SoulKiss
10-02-11, 05:32 PM
I was always told that when riding but perhaps driving more so late at night on a motorway to always take the middle lane, gives you bit more of a chance should you nod off.
I don't bother cos I don't get how people can sleep behind the wheel, no matter how tired. I've never come close. Not a bad idea for those who are susceptible though.
Find whoever told you that then punch them in the face, HARD, then again, HARDER
I was always told that when riding but perhaps driving more so late at night on a motorway to always take the middle lane, gives you bit more of a chance should you nod off.
I don't bother cos I don't get how people can sleep behind the wheel, no matter how tired. I've never come close. Not a bad idea for those who are susceptible though.
LMFAO at the first paragraph.
Very easily to the second paragraph.
Biker Biggles
10-02-11, 05:41 PM
I was always told that when riding but perhaps driving more so late at night on a motorway to always take the middle lane, gives you bit more of a chance should you nod off.
I don't bother cos I don't get how people can sleep behind the wheel, no matter how tired. I've never come close. Not a bad idea for those who are susceptible though.
Nothing inherently wrong with that provided the road is empty.The problem drivers are those that neither know nor care that there are other vehicles behind them going faster and needing to get past.
Now I would have thought lane blocking was an open and shut case of driving without due care,the rational being these people are unaware of the problems they cause.Undertaking should fall into the realms of dangerous driving if,and only if,it actually amounts to that in the specific circumstances.
Thats silly old me thinking the law and its enforcement had anything to do with the real world.:(
I was always told that when riding but perhaps driving more so late at night on a motorway to always take the middle lane, gives you bit more of a chance should you nod off.
I don't bother cos I don't get how people can sleep behind the wheel, no matter how tired. I've never come close. Not a bad idea for those who are susceptible though.
fallen asleep on a bike before now... one broken ankle.
Dave20046
10-02-11, 07:28 PM
Got to admit these people **** me right off and I have no qualms about (safely) passing them. If they're ignorant of the highway code, the lane they're in, road signs and worst of all everyone around them then they're a danger and I'd rather be putting distance between myself and them.
Seems ridiculous that you would be prosecuted for that.
Im my experience of the M1 it seems to be foreign drivers. Asains, Africans and Eastern people. I try to make eye contact with the driver and I'd say 9/10 times it one of those.
Do people from other countries not have to take a driving test to drive in this country?.
Can't say I've ever noted nationality...but they all seem to drive BMWs:cyclopsani:
Nothing inherently wrong with that provided the road is empty.The problem drivers are those that neither know nor care that there are other vehicles behind them going faster and needing to get past.
Now I would have thought lane blocking was an open and shut case of driving without due care,the rational being these people are unaware of the problems they cause.Undertaking should fall into the realms of dangerous driving if,and only if,it actually amounts to that in the specific circumstances.
Thats silly old me thinking the law and its enforcement had anything to do with the real world.:(
+1
Not sure about nodding off but if you're doing warp speed on totally deserted stretch and it gives you a better view then I'd use all of the road.
davepreston
10-02-11, 07:32 PM
Re: Undertaking - what's the penalty?
well with traffic wardens today prbably a £60 fixed notice, but im sure cos of the circumsatnces and it being a hearse and all you might be able to get it repealed
no i cant take anything seriously
fallen asleep on a bike before now... one broken ankle.
It's a pretty random experience ey! When I finally got to my destination I amazingly slept all through the event too (grand stand seat for Silverstone F1 go) lol
yorkie_chris
10-02-11, 08:31 PM
Increasing? I'm registered to teach Pass Plus and I'm not seeing any increase. Quite the opposite actually.
It's because it doesn't work, £100+ on a course that makes your insurance a fiver cheaper.
Whichever genius thought it up missed the point that there needs to be a point to going on courses.
skidmarx
10-02-11, 09:46 PM
It's because it doesn't work, £100+ on a course that makes your insurance a fiver cheaper.
Whichever genius thought it up missed the point that there needs to be a point to going on courses.
This is just silly. Most people are who take further training are not motivated by financial reward. Why assume that everybody is like you?
M25 has seen a massive liberalisation of lane discipline very suddenly over the last 5 years. Undertaking seems to be accepted as almost normal. I'm not that anti, but ffs enshrine it in law or book 'em!
-Ralph-
10-02-11, 10:45 PM
Surely it's only undertaking if you acutally undertake by definition.
If you are in lane 1, and they are in lane 2 (generic Middle Lane Moron)... you are making progress at 70mph, the speed allowed in lane 1, they are doing 60mph in lane 2. If you pass them in lane 1 and remain in lane 1 then it's not undertaking, you are just making progress.
If you are in Lane 3, they are in lane 3... lane 2 is not clear but there is adequate space to move into lane 2 to pass the person blocking lane 3, to then move back into lane 3 yourself... that is undertaking.
There is definately a difference between passing on the left and actually deliberetly undertaking.
I don't think you are allowed to pass on the left on an empty motorway, dangerous IMO.
I knew you were allowed to pass on the left if the flow of traffic was faster in that lane, but if you and the lane hogger are the only traffic...
The difference between the two is that in heavy traffic, the driver to right has good reason to expect you to be there and expect there to be traffic passing on his left as speeds between lanes vary.
On an empty motorway, a lane hogger is not paying full atention anyway, and he's not expecting anything to pass him on the left, so may change lane to the left without looking.
Never undertake a truck unless in heavy traffic, there's a damn good chance he won't see you due to a massive blind spot, return to lane 1, and side swipe you.
I have been guilty of passing a vehicle in lane 2, when in lane 1, just to make a point to the lane hogger, and because I can't be bothered to cross three lanes and back, but if a copper saw me doing it I'd fully expect to get a lecture.
This is just silly. Most people are who take further training are not motivated by financial reward. Why assume that everybody is like you?
I disagree. The vast majority of people that take up Pass Pluss do it purely for any insurance discount they might get (which can be huge YC but like all insurance, varies wildly).
benji106
11-02-11, 12:05 PM
I disagree. The vast majority of people that take up Pass Pluss do it purely for any insurance discount they might get (which can be huge YC but like all insurance, varies wildly).
I agree with this, Most if not all the people I know who have taken Pass Plus have been motivated to do so primarily because they can save on insurance and as YC says, if you are not going to save more than it costs to do the course that is a big incentive taken away.
Increasing? I'm registered to teach Pass Plus and I'm not seeing any increase. Quite the opposite actually.
see our local stats are showing a year on year increase for the past three years of 15 -20%
evaluation shows that those taking up the course want to learn more skills, become more confident, the insurance discount is low and we still have an insurance company signed up to offer preferential discounts. (most now do not get their own policies approx 55-60%)
Among the youngsters I think we can attribute the fact that now we have traffic cops within our area that are taking everyone for everything possible (glad i know the top one and can blag my way out of things and becuase we funded their speed cameras!)
and we have had 8 under 21's dies in the same time frame in car accidents one being particulary horrific and this affect the whole school normally.
in the older age group its a confidence thing - its all changed from when they learned first time and they want to be able to cope.
The trend is happening accross neighbouring authorities too.
Sorry it ain't happening for you. and YC there is a point to the course not just financial gain
Out of interest Quedos, which local authority are you talking about? I ask because some will heavily subsidise Pass Plus (or even pay for it outright) which makes a huge difference in the numbers taking it.
Unfortunately, my council doesn't :(
Woz - East Dunbartonshire - 1st year subsidise by £100 to gain interest, 2nd year £50 and oversubscribed three fold despite the reduction 3rd year no subsides but still increasing - payments are only for under 25's though.
I think this funding has gone in all neighbouring authorities too.
in our 2nd year we had the worst RTC in a long time with 4 under 21's killed 2 outright when a new driver lost control on the rural roads - she had only passed her test 3 days before and it was driver error Such a loss and really hit the school and young people hard
-Ralph-
11-02-11, 01:34 PM
worst RTC in a long time... she had only passed her test 3 days before and it was driver error
See, right there, the root of the problem ;-)
Woz - East Dunbartonshire
That makes sense. I know quite a few Scottish authorities promote it very heavily. Unfortunately, only a handful of English authorities do the same :smt102
It also doesn't help that there are instances of unscrupulous instructors that will happily sell someone a Pass Plus certificate without ever seeing them drive.
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