Any Chiropractor's here?

[hongman]

Something that has been niggling away at me for some time, and I'd like to get an unbiased opinion on it (as it is a largely debated subject, with next to no real endorsable studies done that I can find).

If there is any truth to it, I will make the effort to see one, but otherwise just wanted an opinon of someone in the field.

[stevei0220]

I have never used a Chiropractor but have used the skills of a local Osteopath for the last ten years. I had a bad bike spill back in 1992 causing major trauma to my back. I suffered for many years with my lower spine locking up at the most innappropriate times. Physio and pain relief didn't help and it was through sheer frustration that I chose to visit am osteopath... the Messiah! Three weeks and three sessions later the difference in my life was incredible. I still have relapses but can generally be pain free unless I do gardening or other hard graft type things.
Chripractice and osteopathy are difference principles but either way worth a visit. My advise is that if you have a problem that the GP can't deal with then spend the money and get yourself sorted out... it's the best thing you can do!

[hongman]

Well the thing is I generally don't even have time to visit the gp so I wanted a professional unbiased opinion before I shell out moola and make time to see one...if it's even needed.

It's nothing show stopping but I am a little concerned for effects later in life, there are a few things that makes me wonder if it's deteriorating slowly now.

[Milky Bar Kid]

I may be talking complete and utter rubbish here, but did someone not tell me once that Cazza did something like this? Not sure if she is a Chiropractor, she maybe does sport therapy or is a physio...I am rambling now....

[hongman]

I seem to remember reading she was a masseuse? Off to look!

[Milky Bar Kid]

I seem to remember reading she was a masseuse? Off to look!

You might be right.

[hongman]

Seems so: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=69027

There must be one here! Gonna be patient.

[stevei0220]

Hongman... this is nothing personal but you sound just like a typical bloke who puts things off 'til it's too bloody late! You need to find the time to get to see your GP, it's not that hard to find half an hour surely is it? Why blokes are so reluctant to see the quack I'll never know? If you something has been niggling away for some time and you've been aware of it then it's about time your got your arshe down the road for an appointment..... as I said it's nothing personal but you know now is the time to act... infact rather than sat here on the internet put a call into the surgery now!

[MiniMatt]

Firstly I'd echo the thoughts of others that a GP visit would be a better first move - if you say you haven't got time to visit a GP, well then you haven't time to visit a chiro either - if you're going to do one or the other then do the one that's (a) free and (b) well regulated and adhering to known and peer reviewed medical scientific principles.

That said, my other half went to a chiro for a back problem a while back and whilst expensive did seem to sort her out; she did have a wobble and stopped going once the initial problem had been ironed out but the chiro had obviously moved into business mode from healing mode and was trying to eek out more visits to ensure ongoing overall health etc. But nonetheless they sorted her back out.

As back crackers I've got no problem with them, they have some well acknowledged success with back related problems. Some of the more bonkers ones however, and the big trade body itself (the British Chiropractic Association) still vehemently hang onto the more woo-woo-magic-healing practices and claim that it can solve everything from colic to asthma too. Each to there own, but I'd personally avoid those like the plague. When a Guardian journalist noted the refusal to provide any actual peer reviewed proof of these more far out claims and went on to call them bonkers the British Chriropractic Assoc decided to sue for libel, a move which badly backfired - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Singh

[tactcom7]

Just I though I have had chronic lower back pain since I was about 13, have you tried pilates?
Works for me.

[hongman]

Hongman... this is nothing personal but you sound just like a typical bloke who puts things off 'til it's too bloody late! You need to find the time to get to see your GP, it's not that hard to find half an hour surely is it? Why blokes are so reluctant to see the quack I'll never know? If you something has been niggling away for some time and you've been aware of it then it's about time your got your arshe down the road for an appointment..... as I said it's nothing personal but you know now is the time to act... infact rather than sat here on the internet put a call into the surgery now!

I do procrastinate with certain things (this being one of them) but I do find it very hard to get time during surgery hours.

If I decided to see a Chiro it would be a Saturday appointment or evening even.

Again, not 100% if I even need to see one, which is why I wanted to get an unbiased opinion first, save money and time. Writing a post here takes a few mins as opposed to weeks for an appointment then hours waiting down the GP office!

Firstly I'd echo the thoughts of others that a GP visit would be a better first move - if you say you haven't got time to visit a GP, well then you haven't time to visit a chiro either - if you're going to do one or the other then do the one that's (a) free and (b) well regulated and adhering to known and peer reviewed medical scientific principles.

That said, my other half went to a chiro for a back problem a while back and whilst expensive did seem to sort her out; she did have a wobble and stopped going once the initial problem had been ironed out but the chiro had obviously moved into business mode from healing mode and was trying to eek out more visits to ensure ongoing overall health etc. But nonetheless they sorted her back out.

As back crackers I've got no problem with them, they have some well acknowledged success with back related problems. Some of the more bonkers ones however, and the big trade body itself (the British Chiropractic Association) still vehemently hang onto the more woo-woo-magic-healing practices and claim that it can solve everything from colic to asthma too. Each to there own, but I'd personally avoid those like the plague. When a Guardian journalist noted the refusal to provide any actual peer reviewed proof of these more far out claims and went on to call them bonkers the British Chriropractic Assoc decided to sue for libel, a move which badly backfired - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Singh

Thanks - I'll certainly be avoiding any woo woo magic therapy!

Just I though I have had chronic lower back pain since I was about 13, have you tried pilates?
Works for me.

I dont think pilates would help, but I'll look into it.

Thanks all

[tactcom7]

I'd seriously consider it hongman, I'd seen a chiro/osteo a few times who cracked my back and manipulated the vertebra etc. My physio then prescribed weekly Pilate sessions which helped prevent it from seizing up again. Got a DVD you can borrow if you like.

[Sid Squid]

Any chiropractor's what?

[wyrdness]

I'd seriously consider it hongman, I'd seen a chiro/osteo a few times who cracked my back and manipulated the vertebra etc. My physio then prescribed weekly Pilate sessions which helped prevent it from seizing up again. Got a DVD you can borrow if you like.

I've never tried Pilates, but I've heard good things about it. You'll need to find a session run by decent teacher. A friend of mine who has back problems tried it recently. As soon as she walked into the class, the teacher correctly diagnosed her back problem (she's got scoliocis). She said that it's been really good for her back.

I used to go to a chiropractor, for several months. Never again. It was like some expensive brain-washing cult. Osteopaths are much better, in my experience.

[tactcom7]

Wyrdness, what is the difference between an osteopath and a chiropractor? I'm starting to wonder which one i went to now.

[MiniMatt]

Wyrdness, what is the difference between an osteopath and a chiropractor? I'm starting to wonder which one i went to now.

Osteo generally slower manipulations and stretching, chrio characterised by more rapid manipulations. Both can be surrounded by a lot of woo-woo magic although in my opinion osteo is less rooted historically in magic chakras than chiro.

Worth noting that the Osteopathy body pulled a pdf of how osteo can solve your baby's colic, crying and glue ear about the same time chiros were getting referred en-masse to advertising standards for failing to provide any scientific proof of these claims. Thanks to the wonders of webarchive the full on woo-woo can still be read here - http://web.archive.org/web/20070206114911/http:/www.osteopathy.org.uk/about_osteo/Babies_Children.pdf

I'll restate that I believe they both do some good in treatment of back problems but the moment they talk about subluxations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_subluxation) and blocked qi, I feel it's time to move on.

[tactcom7]

Oh right well she cracked my back and stretched it that's about all i know, and there wasn't any talk of flux capacitors or chives or any of that nonsense.

[metalangel]

Why blokes are so reluctant to see the quack I'll never know?

Don't know what your doctor's office is like, but mine:
-wait for two or three hours to be seen, even with an appointment.
-small child with the waiting room's filth-encrusted toy, smashing it up and down as noisily as possible
-old man with disgusting hacking cough
-middle-aged slappers (the receptionists) cackling away behind their frosted glass
-braindead chav child asking his mother what every poster in the office says because he can't read
-doctor finally sees you and tells you you're too young to be worrying about stuff like this, examines you anyway and gives you a derisory prescription
-fat dude who sits there, wheezing
-old bat with enormous handbag who glares disapprovingly at everyone who comes in
-"have you got manky genital rot? here are the signs you should look out for..."
-20 OAPs all coming in to get their prescriptions filled only to be told 'not yet, use up what you've got first'

My previous doctor was exactly the same, before you say 'you've just got a bad one'.

[hongman]

What he said, so very well put!

[metalangel]

I do like chiropractors, I have a dodgy back which was made worse by a bad fall in high school gym class... and they managed to fix it. You don't want to end up with a bad back by the time you're oldhongman, so get looked at now BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!

[Sid Squid]

Osteo generally slower manipulations and stretching, chrio characterised by more rapid manipulations. Both can be surrounded by a lot of woo-woo magic although in my opinion osteo is less rooted historically in magic chakras than chiro.
Correct, see an Osteo in preference every time. Which is not to say that Chiros can't be useful, but my lengthy, personal experience is that there is too much mumbo jumbo with Chiros.

[Quedos]

I hope it ain't your T5 thats given you problems otherwsie you better see someone real quick pref a GP.
I'm sorry but there's no excuses for not making time to see you GP they should be your first point of call. We're luck our physio doesn't need a GP referral we can phone up for assesment. Though I'm still waitung for NHS physio to start - been private since and its almost fixed this time.
If you have back problems get them fixed - I had 6 herniated disc 12 years agao and i still get relapses which can be debilitating. at 23 I learned to walk again because of my back. As for Chiro's bascially the same a physio and can be good but I'm on a waiting list after my physio( one or the other not both at the same time)
so I'm going to be harsh and say stoping making s**** excuses and go see your GP, yes its a pain in the **** and you don't really have time - but when the time comes and your flat on your back in rehab/after surgery with god know what damage- you wish you had.


Health MUST be your number one priority cause no one else will do it for you.

[hongman]

GP booked, 9th March.

Thanks everyone, probably got the kick up the **** I needed.

I'll see what the GP says and go from there. Its nothing but a minor inconvenience at the mo but there are signs here and there that I just want to check out really.

All possibly my own fault too!

I'll go see whoever the GP recommends, Chiro, Osteo, Physio...

[Quedos]

Good!
its probably best to get an opinion first and get referred. Minor can lead to major if not looked after and it amazing how much your spine does. I have problems yet have a mobile, flexible healthy spine. - just few discs bulge every now and then

Not always your fault - normally not attributted to just one thing but several small things but at least your getting it seen to. Otherwise till then - heat/ice and inbuprofen and para's if painful
and GWS!

[hongman]

Thanks Q. In my case, if it is a problem, it is 100% my fault!

[Quedos]

You got me intrigued now of what you've done

[hongman]

What the heck, its not really that private so I'll share.

Since the age of about 10 (younger?) I have been a chronic bone cracker. Started off with my knuckles and over the years its extended to other parts...now its toes, ankles, knees, lower and upper spine (neck), elbows, wrists and knuckles.

As you know joints do occasionally crack anyway, and when forced to beyond normal movement limits they crack also. Mine seem to do it a bit too much, which again doesnt really bother me.

What is starting to become obvious is my neck and lower back are becoming very stiff after a few hours, especially if I havent moved much (like sleep or driving for sat for anything over about an hour).

They then become painful - until I twist them which releases a bigger than usual crack. The feeling of euphoria comes in and then they feel loosened up for a bit, then the cycle repeats.

I have noticed also if I roll my neck around in circles, I can feel/hear this kind of crunching, rubbing sound of the joints. I can't really describe it.

Also, and this has happened about 7 or 8 times in the last few months, I have turned my head to do something very mundane and normal (usually when turning my head left to check my mirror) it just gets stuck. Its then very very painful for the next day like I have pulled a muscle.

So...I'm starting to wonder if the ligaments/joints/muscles have deteriorated to the point where I really need to stop.

And trust me, I have tried. Its become such a habit that I do it, then realise I did it, if that makes sense. I do it in my sleep so my partner tells me. Sometimes I feel I have to do it if I feel like I have a particularly stiff back/neck/wrist/whatever to regain normal movement.

Kind of sad but I still remember the day I was in my ma's living room, and my older sister showing me she could crack her knuckles. I tried it, and it's been with me now 16 years on.

[MiniMatt]

Well good on you, be interested to hear what they say as I'll confess I have the exact same thing (though sans any pain or siezing feeling, which is why I've never really brought it to doctors beyond in passing). Certainly know what you mean about every. single. joint. doing it now - only one of mine that doesn't is my left shoulder and that's only because it dislocates in and out at will rather than crack.

Were you / are you "double jointed"? I remember it all started as I realised it phreaked adults out when I could bend my fingers all the way back to my arm :D And when you're a kid phreaking and vaguely disgusting your parents is kinda your job :D

[hongman]

lol!

The only double jointed joint I have in my body is my right thumb, the middle bit bends both ways. Actually very annoying as if I'm trying to press say, a drawing pin into something hard it just bends and I get no leverage on it...

Most of my joints started cracking after a certain incident, and then its like I'm hooked.

Ankles - after twisting them, one after the other
Wrists - after coming off my scooter at 19 and breaking both of them!
Neck - by accident, with my hands behind my head and stretching back on a chair

And so on

I know knuckle cracking reduces grip strength, that's more of less proven from what I have researched, but other tests and results seem to contradict each other. From long term damage, arthiritis, etc to zero damage to "its actually healthly".

All from offical looking reports on the interwebs, but as we all know, that really means naff all most of the time.

[custard]

am exactly the same. every joint clicks, and it does feel soooo good! hips have to be my favourite for some reason.

speaking to my chiro friend. she reckons that if you are not forcing the joints then there is nothing to worry about. could just be old age setting in ;)

seeing one wouldnt do any harm. until i saw her i didnt know that an off that had disclocated my shoulder had also moved my ribs out of position. once she had reset them I could breathe an awful lot easier...

my girlfriend has also seen her for pain in her cocyx. she was initially referred to a sepcialist who wanted to start a treatment of steroid injections and physio. One trip to the chiro - the bone was slightly out of alignment a quick click and the problem has gone. the course of treatment recommended by the specialist would have only treat the symptoms and never cured them.

hth

[hongman]

How much force is too much, tis the question!

Sometimes with my knee and elbow, it feels like it has come slightly dislodged. I have to either extend my arm/leg and quickly and forcefully snap it back or with my arm, extend it, and pull it with the other hand the "wrong" way til it cracks back in.

When doing my neck I am pretty sure it twists more than "normal" movement would allow.

[custard]

tbh i have no idea how much is too much.... maybe stop when you can see your own ar$e crack? :)

[hongman]

But it looks so nice.

[custard]

wrong in so many ways....

[hongman]

Moving swiftly along!

[Cazza]

I seem to remember reading she was a masseuse? Off to look!

Hi, sorry, I've only just seen this thread.

Yes, I'm a massage therapist - but I've spent a lot of time working with (and getting treated by) osteopaths and working in a clinical environment.

Yes, absolutely go to your GP - it's always a good place to start. He / she can arrange for you to have x-rays / scans, refer you on to other relevant healthcare professionals etc.

However, for various reasons, GPs aren't always so good with actually treating musculoskeletal issues. They can (and too often, do, in my view) just send patients away with a prescription for some painkillers and some advice to 'stop doing whatver it is that's causing your pain' - and very little in the way of actual treatment. The equivalent of being told to just top up your bike with oil when it has an oil leak, instead of finding out why it's leaking in the first place!

Osteopaths are like any other profession (massage therapists, bike mechanics etc etc!) - there are good ones and not so good ones. I'm very lucky to know some fantastic osteopaths who are not only good at their jobs, but work with the utmost professional integrity. That is to say, they will not fleece you and make you sign up for expensive courses of treatments. They will always do the minimum number of treatments necessary and offer great aftercare support (eg popping in again for 10 mins, at no extra charge, if you're worried about anything after treatment or require a 'top-up' adjustment).

I can't tell you too much about chiropractors first-hand - but my understanding is that their general approach is that most issues / dysfunctions emanate from problems in the spinal area.

An osteopath will look at your body as a whole - musculoskeletal structure and function, fascia, nervous system etc.

So many people have aches and pains that they "learn to live with" - forgive me for sounding like a nutty preacher - but it doesn't always have to be this way!

Yes, sometimes there are pains that can't be cured - at best only 'managed'. But I can't tell you the number of times I've treated, or met, patients / clients who have pains and problems that can be dramatically improved through a physical bodywork modality such as massage, physio, osteopathy etc.

I can only offer you my personal opinion - but my advice would be to certainly follow through with your GP, but also go and see an osteopath. It should cost you around £45 / £50 for a session - and they can at least give you a diagnosis and undoubtably give you treatment and advice there and then.

Please don't leave it any longer before seeking help from somewhere - it makes the practitioner's job so much easier when people go to them before they get to 'breaking point'.

I'm sure you wouldn't balk at paying £50 to get your bike seen to if you were worried it had a problem that could end up damaging it / letting you down. Don't view your own health any differently - do the best you can to look after your body - you can't part-ex it for a new one.

PM me if you want any more info - or an osteo recommendation.

Hope it all works out for you.

[hongman]

Thanks Cazza!

When you put it like that it seems I really would be a bit backwards to not at least see one for the sake of £50. Isn't it strange how I would absolutely spend that without much of a second thought for my bike yet so tight when it comes to my health!

[seedy100]

Sorry to be a bit late finding this thread.

Some good stuff here.
This is a good forum for those of a scientific and skeptical persuasion. Best avoided if you are "new age" of Woo orientated though.
http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14975&hilit=chiropractor (http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14975&hilit=chiropractor)

A fairly good journalistic treatment here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/27/health-nice-chiropractic (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/27/health-nice-chiropractic)

For a propper evidenced based treatment of the issues see this. Unfortunatly you can only read the abstract and not the full paper. The paper would be pretty heavy going though.
http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005427.html (http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005427.html)

Hope this helps you to spend your money in the right place.

[metalangel]

What is starting to become obvious is my neck and lower back are becoming very stiff after a few hours, especially if I havent moved much (like sleep or driving for sat for anything over about an hour).

They then become painful - until I twist them which releases a bigger than usual crack. The feeling of euphoria comes in and then they feel loosened up for a bit, then the cycle repeats.

I have noticed also if I roll my neck around in circles, I can feel/hear this kind of crunching, rubbing sound of the joints. I can't really describe it.

I have wonderful grinding wrists much like your neck... they've been like that since I was 15, AT LEAST. I blame the incredibly unergonomic Colecovision controller (http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/detail/coleco.jpg) when I was very young. :p

I also have crispy knees, when I go up and down stairs (or indeed put any sort of load on them) they make a lovely crispy crackly noise. I put this to my physio after my off (in which I hurt one of the knees) and she said it was nothing to worry about, some people have noisy knees!

Lately I can make my elbows crack, I have an ankle I can click constantly, etc etc etc.

Hard to resist doing it, isn't it? *crunch*

[hongman]

Its more addictive than smoking ;)

[Messie]

My hero, Ben Goldacre, of the Badscience website and The Guradian. Busting the stupid and iresponsible out in favour of true science!

PS Hong - when I worked with a load of physios I asked about cracking joints as my ankle does it a lot. They told me not to worry and in fact it was only air trapped with joints that made a 'crack' sound when popped. It wasn't actually anything to do with bones rubbing together and that 'if you keep doing that you'll get arthritis when you're old' was an old wives tale :)

[hongman]

Hi Sally :)

Yeah, I know that bit about the air. But I tend to manipulate my neck round past its normal movement range to get the best cracks...just wondering if these little niggly pains and the other stuff I wrote about are linked to me cracking my joints on purpose, or something else entirely.

Malnutrition perhaps. I still eat like I did when I was 18, maybe I ought to start eating more healthy.

Off for a KFC now ;)

[hongman]

Well, had to cancel the GP, work got in the way as usual.

But, thanks to Cazza, I am now booked in next Saturday to see a highly recommended Osteopath!

:D

[Quedos]

my physio reckons you've weakened one or more of the ligaments in your neck.
we think you should be put into full bosy traction with complete immoblisation from shoulder ups.












only joking re the traction!!

[hongman]

lol!

We shall see on the 12th! Maybe I will need one!

[hongman]

Saw the osteopath today!

The results, should anyone be interested:



Hypermobility in every joint (he gave it a fancy name), likely heritidary
Unlikely to be degenerative (thank god)
I have a "s" shaped spine, becuase my left leg is slightly shorter than my right, which means my pelvis is on the wonk. Spine curves to compensate, which attributes to lower back pain
Apparently my eczema condition may have something to do with my ligaments being "loose"
Groups of very tight muscles in my back, taking the strain of these loose ligaments
No cure, only management therapy
Recommended pilates or tai chi to encourage/maintain healthy movement of said muscles

So there we have it!

Edit: Special thanks to Cazza who sourced me this very good osteopath right on my doorstep!

[Cazza]

Glad you got to see him Hong and that you could finally get some answers.

Make sure you get regular 'maintenance' treatments to keep everything in check - it may only need to be every couple of months - I'm sure he'll have told you what would be best.

Did you tell him about your compulsion to 'click' your joints?

[Quedos]

Ohh hypermobility - i got that in my spine!!

glad you managed to see someone though - I got signe off on friday just to get the problems all over again on sundy night!!

[tactcom7]

Pilates, what did I tell ya hongman! ;)